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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: smshea on June 21, 2010, 03:02:57 AM

Title: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: smshea on June 21, 2010, 03:02:57 AM
So I have a client that would like to have a Rifle Representative of what Timothy Murphy might have used for his famous shot during the Revolution. I'm wondering what others might in vision in his hands on that day.  Brain storming Ideas would be a big help. ???

Thanks
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: SCLoyalist on June 21, 2010, 03:24:02 AM
Several   accounts say Murphy used a double barreled gun, although whether a swivel breech or some other scheme isn't specified.   More accounts say it took him two or three shots to land the fatal shot.

Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: TinStar on June 21, 2010, 04:42:38 AM
Along the Schoharie River in Schoharie County NY, there is a NYS Historical Marker about Murphy and his famous shot. Yes, he did use a double barreled rifle and had to fire a few shots  to hit his mark. Murphy was a Schoharie County resident during the Revolution. If I get down that way again I will take a pic and post it. It's quite interesting.


TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: smshea on June 21, 2010, 04:52:05 AM
I was always under the impression that we know he owned a swivel gun at some point but that there is no proof that this is what he used on that famous day. Maybe I'm wrong on that....but either way....what style? From where? This may call for imagination. ;)   
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Karl Kunkel on June 21, 2010, 04:55:16 AM
I can't recall the souce right now, but I beleive that Murphy's rifle after the war was a swivel breach, but that there is/was no real info that this was the rifle he carried that day. Some thought he would have carried a regular rifle.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Acer Saccharum on June 21, 2010, 05:20:38 AM
I think it is in:
Saratoga: Turning Point of America's Revolutionary War by Richard Ketchum
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: smshea on June 21, 2010, 05:31:56 AM
I'm not looking to throw anyone under the bus for their opinions here.
 
 Those who know me know I naturally gravitate to Eastern most Pa and usually Federal period guns....So I'm out of my natural comfort zone here. Need some help thinking out of the box here.

Acer, Thanks for bringing that book up! I keep thinking I'm going to reread that but need to dig it out of a storage unit.  I just wrote myself a note for tomarrow! ;D
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Acer Saccharum on June 21, 2010, 05:52:07 AM
It's a fabulous book. Written in a clear and concise manner, history, but highly readable. COvers Burgoyne's trek down the Champlain and Lake George valleys, and the defeat at the Battle of Bennington, and digging in at Saratoga.

My club, the Old Saratoga Muzzleloading Club, is on the very grounds the Brits marched through, really close to Freeman's Farm. Just south of Schuylerville, the club is a mile North of the actual battle ground. The terrain is gently rolling farmland until you get to the American position, where the earth is raised up abruptly into hills and gorges. To go around the American position, Burgoyne would have had to go MILES to the west, cutting his way through forests and wading through swamps. The Brits were almost starving at this point, and decided to fight the Americans right there and then get through the other side of their line to food and supplies. Burgoyne was vainly hoping for Clinton to come up from NYC to effectively pinch the Americans between the two Brit forces. Clinton never made it.

I think about history of Colonial America when I go to my shoots along the Hudson.

Tom
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: northmn on June 21, 2010, 03:05:54 PM
The accounts claim that Murphy must have had two fairly quick shots available to pick off Fraser and his aide.  That is about the extent of it.

DP
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Don Getz on June 21, 2010, 03:10:47 PM
When I first heard the story about Murphy shooting that general, I heard that it was a two barreled gun.   Think about this for a moment.   I don't know of any american made swivel breech guns, or even over/under guns, that were made
prior to the revolution.    On the other hand, I have seen "jager" swivel breech guns which would have been available at
that time.   Many of those Jagers were large bores, so, is it possible that he used one to accomplish this feat.........seems
doubtful.   My guess is he was shooting a single barrel rifle, probably 45, maybe a 50...........Don
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Don Getz on June 21, 2010, 03:22:52 PM
To follow up on my last comments, I  just remembered the "William Antes" swivel breech......it was an early gun, but, was
it, or one like it used?     Seems like I remember Murphy coming from the Northumberland County area, and there are connections between William Antes and Fort Augusta which was in Sunbury, Northumberland County.   If I remember
correctly, a fellow by the name of Markley, an englishman, who was the armorer at Fort Augusta, married the daughter
of William Antes.   Some food for thought.............Don
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Acer Saccharum on June 21, 2010, 03:29:52 PM
Maybe he had two or three rifles up in the tree, and shot them in succession, like Hawkeye in Last of the Mohicans. ;D
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on June 21, 2010, 03:43:36 PM
Some info:
http://americanrevolution.org/murphy.html (http://americanrevolution.org/murphy.html)
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Mike R on June 21, 2010, 03:50:56 PM
I'll have to search for my source, but I read not too long ago that Murphy did own a wender type double rifle and that a receipt for it had been found--If I recall it was made near Easton, PA. However, the same source allowed as how it being heavy, was mainly use in garrison and that he carried a single barrel rifle that day he [reportedly] made the long shot(s).  That info may have come from a book called "Frontier Riflemen" or Rev War Riflemen....

P.S. I don't remember the name of the builder, but it was not Golcher.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on June 21, 2010, 04:08:39 PM
Another bit of confusion:

http://pajack.com/stories/pennsylvania/timmurphy.html (http://pajack.com/stories/pennsylvania/timmurphy.html)

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2003_summer_fall/fraser.htm (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2003_summer_fall/fraser.htm)
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on June 21, 2010, 04:55:59 PM
So after looking at several sources..there appears to be no real solid evidence.......but common lore says he used a double barrel rifle..........so I guess thats what the client might want...did he say???   Might have to look to possible european design??  Was a swivel breech known to have been made during the Rev war.... seems more reasonable than SxS???
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dennis Glazener on June 21, 2010, 05:49:54 PM
Thanks for all the info in this post. My GGGG GF Samuel B. King was one of Morgan's riflemen. He was from Bedford County VA and joined Dec 9, 1776 and was with Morgan at the battle of Saratoga. I like to think he may have known Tim Murphy!
Dennis




Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Ken Prather on June 21, 2010, 05:58:27 PM
I have an ancestor that was also at Saratoga with Morgans, Capt. Basil Prather. He was in command of 60-plus riflemen that were attached to Morgan from the 8th PA.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: rich pierce on June 21, 2010, 06:34:23 PM
Here's Tim Murphy's horn.  It was at an awkward angle under glass, at the Old Stone Fort in Schoharie.  About 15-16" along the outside curve, about 3" at the base, iron nails to hold the buttplug, and no markings.  Either a cheap standard trade horn or a one-off made by a non-professional.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/richpierce/accoutrements/TimMurphyhorn001.jpg)

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/richpierce/accoutrements/TimMurphyhorn002.jpg)

I don't doubt that Antes, etc was making double barrel swivel rifles by 1770, but the one in RCA looks 1780's-1790's to me.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dphariss on June 21, 2010, 07:24:36 PM
While Fraiser stated the man that shot him was in a tree Murphy was not the only rifleman shooting at him at the time. So who really killed him could be a ?
But Murphy is an excellent candidate and chances are the story that has come down through time is correct. But I am not sure that Murphy ever claimed it. But he may not have considered it something the brag about.

So far as the swivel breech? The Antes rifle could easily predate the Revolution and I think it does. Antes was certainly old enough, b. 1735 IIRC, to have even invented the little figure with the funny cap that appears on Allentown guns and on this swivel. It would have been the perfect gun for the Fraiser job since a 50 caliber rifle will easily make the 300 yard shot. Wenders had been in production in Europe since the advent of the flintlock.
I can tell you that a swivel is pretty nice thing to have for hunting and in combat would have been that much better.
Sometime during the Revolution Kenton ordered a double barreled rifle from PA. So they were apparently known as far "out" as Kentucky. SXS are far more unwieldy than a swivel.
Dan
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: J.D. on June 21, 2010, 09:36:19 PM
To muddy the waters even more, I remember reading about a letter written about two brothers or cousins from North Carolina who crept about half way to the Brit lines, through a field of standing grain. According to the letter, the two fired at Frazier from less than 200 yards from a slight rise in the field. Don't remember the source though.

As mentioned in the article on the early American Review page, the first mention of Murphy as the one who shot Frazier was in the mid 1840's, so IMHO, the story is probably more fiction than fact.

That said, no one can really know what style of rifle was used by Morgan's riflemen at Bemis Heights. I suspect that an early Lancaster,  an early VA rifle similar to the Haymaker, or something close to RCA 21 might be a good choice.

God bless
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dennis Glazener on June 22, 2010, 02:53:04 AM
Quote
That said, no one can really know what style of rifle was used by Morgan's riflemen at Bemis Heights. I suspect that an early Lancaster,  an early VA rifle similar to the Haymaker, or something close to RCA 21 might be a good choice.
My vote is on RCA #124, it just screams Morgan's Riflemen, especially the ones from VA!
Dennis
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Jim Kibler on June 22, 2010, 04:46:19 AM
Quote
That said, no one can really know what style of rifle was used by Morgan's riflemen at Bemis Heights. I suspect that an early Lancaster,  an early VA rifle similar to the Haymaker, or something close to RCA 21 might be a good choice.
My vote is on RCA #124, it just screams Morgan's Riflemen, especially the ones from VA!
Dennis


So what is it about RCA #124 that screams Morgan's Riflemen?  Just curious what your thoughts are.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Acer Saccharum on June 22, 2010, 02:10:54 PM
Jim, it's only because Dennis is from VA. And because he owns the site, we let him have his little fantasy now and then.

Tom
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dennis Glazener on June 22, 2010, 04:05:44 PM
Jim,
I guess the VA attribution has something to do with it (maybe a lot more than I let on).

The graceful lines of the walnut stock (I don't like the goofy incised lines, I can imagine a bored Rev War guy using his knife to carve these line while sitting around a campfire ::)), the simple, functional look that I think would appeal to early Scot-Irish frontiersman. The wide (2 1/16") butt and comparatively straight stock that to me would make for comfortable shooting of a .59 caliber rifle. The use of a top of the line Ketland lock for reliability.

To me it just has the look of a rifle that one of Morgan's VA riflemen would have owned as his personal rifle.

Dennis
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on June 22, 2010, 04:23:28 PM
Not to be a pain, or anti VA.. ;D  but the versions of the legend all seem to agree on a doublebarreled rifle......So we know there were some swivel breech guns extant..... we also know that the legend was not really published until the 1840's...so looking back with 1840 eyes biased by what was seen from say 1825 on.... what would the population have imagined a doublebarreled rifle looked like...... ????  So Scott, I guess you go with what you think your customer thinks the gun was like, or what you think the populace thought it looked like.........or..... Were it me, unless the customer was against it, and knowing only what I know now I would settle on a swivel breech.......One man's opinion.. hope that's helpful.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: BlackleafHats on June 22, 2010, 05:15:37 PM
2cents from a non-gun builder... I've been following this thread with great interest, and read all the articles linked. It seems to me that much of the info out there does not agree. One articles states that his name was not even originally murphy while another states his parents by name. It does to me seem like sources agree that there was the existence of a double barreled rifle. Question: Was it the rifle used for the Shot? It seems along with the question "How many licks does it take to get the center of a tootsie pop?" The world may never know!

I'd like to go back to my brother's original question.
I'm wondering what others might envision in his hands on that day?
As someone "who don't know jack about gun building or the different schools" I offer, if he was from the Deleware Water Gap area and moved to the Sunbury area which most sources seem to agree upon. Would it be plausible to look towards the nearest geographical school and the earliest possible guns to spark the imagination which Scotty seems to be asking of us?

My 2 cents
Morgan Shea
Non-gun maker
Wacky Hat Guy
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: smshea on June 22, 2010, 07:13:15 PM
2cents from a non-gun builder... I've been following this thread with great interest, and read all the articles linked. It seems to me that much of the info out there does not agree. One articles states that his name was not even originally murphy while another states his parents by name. It does to me seem like sources agree that there was the existence of a double barreled rifle. Question: Was it the rifle used for the Shot? It seems along with the question "How many licks does it take to get the center of a tootsie pop?" The world may never know!

I'd like to go back to my brother's original question.
I'm wondering what others might envision in his hands on that day?
As someone "who don't know jack about gun building or the different schools" I offer, if he was from the Deleware Water Gap area and moved to the Sunbury area which most sources seem to agree upon. Would it be plausible to look towards the nearest geographical school and the earliest possible guns to spark the imagination which Scotty seems to be asking of us?

My 2 cents
Morgan Shea
Non-gun maker
Wacky Hat Guy

 Hey! Stay out of my brain! >:( Seriously....Well said! ;D
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on June 22, 2010, 08:31:33 PM
So the Easton gunbuilder is attributed...but we have none of his guns to look at...seems the double or single isssue is the biggy......legend has it........... wanna fight the legend without hard facts?? 
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Roger Fisher on June 22, 2010, 08:53:40 PM
So the Easton gunbuilder is attributed...but we have none of his guns to look at...seems the double or single isssue is the biggy......legend has it........... wanna fight the legend without hard facts?? 
I understand that Nicholas Hawk Gilbert, Pa (Northampton County at that time) did build Wenders; but was ol Nicky Hawk working that early?  Dunno!

Not Easton; but not too far n/w of said town!
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on June 22, 2010, 11:06:21 PM
A couple of authors attribute the gun to Isaac Worly, riflesmith in Easton, PA
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: BlackleafHats on June 23, 2010, 08:21:38 PM
From the Valley Forge Muster Roll
Additional Remarks (if any):
Born 1751 in Minisink, NJ. Enlisted at age sixteen in July 1775 in Thompson's Pennsylvania Battalion of riflemen, noted for their marksmanship. Became a sergeant in the 12th PA Regiment and was at the battles of Trenton, Princeton, New Brunswick, and Brandywine. Detached with Captain James Parr to Morgan's Rifle Corps. At the Battle of Bemis Heights (Saratoga) in October 1777, Murphy was ordered to pick off key British officers who were reforming an attack. Murphy made the shots and helped the Americans to victory in what is often called the turning point of the war. Murphy then wintered at Valley Forge with Morgan’s Rifle Corps and served with distinction for the remainder of the war. Died in Schoharie County, NY in 1818


Note: This says born in Minisink NJ... that's the first time I've come across the info of him being born on the other side of the river.

And one more article I've not scene on this thread yet.
http://dmna.state.ny.us/historic/articles/murphy.htm
I'm also trying to find any other mention of the mysterious brother mentioned.
The Valley Forge Roll has a couple of John Murphy's listed from PA
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: BlackleafHats on June 24, 2010, 08:27:10 PM
Found mention of both Tim and John from 1775-76 in Lowdon's and Parr's companies.
http://files.usgwarchives.net/pa/northumberland/areahistory/bell0005.txt
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: projeeper on June 24, 2010, 11:30:12 PM
I rember reading about this shot and when the col. hollared who made that shot Murphy in a tree with a Golcher came back.
Campfires of the revolution was the book,it was a very old book when i got it & its in hiding now.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: John Gunshenan on November 28, 2020, 04:19:50 AM
Here's Tim Murphy's horn ... at the Old Stone Fort in Schoharie...

The curator took photos so we could make a replica:

(https://i.ibb.co/Ny8bBq1/image6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rFS50w)

(https://i.ibb.co/tqq7W1q/image5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T44VFN4)

(https://i.ibb.co/Ht44r2g/image4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qNjjRn1)

(https://i.ibb.co/315Bhnj/image3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4WwPNHX)

(https://i.ibb.co/7pkhLKg/image2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1XzcjTs)

(https://i.ibb.co/B6tRN2t/image1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1XLx6GL)

(https://i.ibb.co/tzQnfcy/image0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7QjBcV7)
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: smart dog on November 28, 2020, 03:43:00 PM
Hi,
Here is a different take on Timothy Murphy:
https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/03/the-myth-of-rifleman-timothy-murphy-and-the-power-of-the-written-word/

The "Timothy Murphy" swivel breech rifle in the Old Stone Fort museum in New York is from the 1830s or later and was almost certainly made as a percussion gun.  Sometime later it was converted to flint-percussion conversion.  Murphy died in 1818 and it is unlikely he ever owned the gun but it might have been in his family.  The rifle is pictured below.  Revolution era rifle?

dave
(https://i.ibb.co/8bMyZVQ/Murphy-s-rifle.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Dennis Glazener on November 28, 2020, 05:53:38 PM
I rember reading about this shot and when the col. hollared who made that shot Murphy in a tree with a Golcher came back.
Campfires of the revolution was the book,it was a very old book when i got it & its in hiding now.
Free download here: https://books.google.com/books?id=93uzVqelF34C&pg=PA5&source=kp_read_button
Dennis
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Clint on November 28, 2020, 07:18:20 PM
I wonder if a double gun might have been used , in difficult shots, as a range finder of sorts. modern rifles are sometimes loaded with tracers and artillery is commonly "walked in" by forward observers. The swivel breach would have given enough information to accuratly place the second shot. The fact that the shot was so celebrated, tells us that it was uncommon and the attempt would be made by someone who had THE rifle and the confidence. Two shots would be a big confidence builder. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Tim Murphy Rifle
Post by: Hungry Horse on November 28, 2020, 09:13:41 PM
 Well, since like certain parts of our anatomy, every bodies got one. My opinion leans towards Murphy’s gun being a side-by-side double. My reasoning goes like this. Swivel breech guns were all the rage at the time the details of the event was penned, but not so much when it actually took place. And, few actual survivors of the event were still living when it was penned. Side-by-side double smoothbores were relatively common during the period of the actual event. Common enough that a few Indian trade guns were built in this format, and a gun built with rifled barrels would’nt be a big stretch to imagine. Or, a big engineering project for a competent gunsmith. Another reason for my belief is a Swivel breech would be a two handed process to index the second barrel, while a side-by-side would not. Remember Tim supposedly shot from a perch in a tree. A side-by-side could be fitted with a set of sights on each barrel, sighted in for different ranges making it easier to gauge such a long shot (I know this is also possible on a swivel breech). I also think a double would be less likely wear, and get loose, in a combat situation, than a swivel. Oh, and by the way, there is some evidence that a rifleman named Young actually made the shot rather than Tim Murphy.

  Hungry Horse

  Hungry Horse