AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Hurricane ( of Virginia) on December 12, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
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It is stated in many publications that James Johnston of Waynesboro, PA was the apprentice of Henry Carlile of Shippensburg. Is this evidence.? I present for your thoughts the patchboxes and forestock escutheon inlays of two signed guns by these master gunsmiths for your thoughts?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi708.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww81%2FALRLIBRARY%2FMasterApprentciePatchboxPA.jpg&hash=15fbd7b76dad74d34c3a07b46bdef41e222e7f3a)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi708.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww81%2FALRLIBRARY%2FMasterApprentciePAeuscuteon.jpg&hash=cdda2b9a5c7eab6875b99379e9b8a7fb302d89af)
Please comment here as a reply.
Hurricane
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I think you have to be barking up the right tree on this one. The work is too
similar to be coincidental. Makes a nice pair clearly showing how traditions were
passed down.
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A strong association is evident but just looking a a couple of guns can not prove a Master/Apprentice relationship.
Supporting documents like when they were born so we can check that Carlile was finished his apprenticeship (and established in his shop) at the time Johnston reached the age to be apprenticed out.
What about tax records? Do apprentices of the right age show up in Carlile's tax records at the right time?
Without some form of additional documentation, the master/apprenticeship can't be stated with COMPLETE certainty. Maybe they both apprenticed to the same master and that accounts for the similarity of their work.
Gary
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An archival problem is census records don't show names of household members until 1850. Plus (oddly) Carlisle isn't listed in any family trees in the LDS database, so we don't have his wife's or children's names to crossreference.
In 1820 Henry Carlisle (abt 1787-1847) had 3 persons in his household, with only he and his wife as adults, and one person (himself) engaged in manufacturing.
By 1830 Carlisle had 8 persons in his Shippensburg household with 4 of them adults. That means he had employees and probably apprentices.
In 1840 the numbers increase to 9 with 5 adults. And in 1849 Carlisle died.
But John H. Johnston (1811-1889), gunsmith, is present with 100% certainty.
In 1850 he's a gunsmith in Waynesboro with $1000 in assets.
Ditto 1860 with $2100 in assets....$3300 in 1870....and he died in 1889. He and his wife Rachel had 7 children, 4 of them boys, but as they came of age in the cartridge era I didn't pursue them. His son Joseph was educated in an unspecified university in the 1860's, so Johnston was doing fairly well.
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Thanks Bob. What is the "LDS" database???
Hurricane
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"Latter Day Saints"
Their information collection is OK for abstracts of official records. The genealogies are to be taken with a grain of salt as they are copied from everywhere no matter whether proven or not and entered into their database.