AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: James on March 12, 2011, 03:53:08 PM
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Hello, I have seen many posts by folks stating loads for their guns where they are using FFFg in rifles and yet I see charts showing FFg is for rifles and FFFg is for pistols. Is this a case of whatever works in your gun or is there a reason like safety that would result in the differing procedure? Thank you, James
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Hello, I have seen many posts by folks stating loads for their guns where they are using FFFg in rifles and yet I see charts showing FFg is for rifles and FFFg is for pistols. Is this a case of whatever works in your gun or is there a reason like safety that would result in the differing procedure? Thank you, James
A lot of of charts get initiated based on understandings at a given time then unfortunately sometimes don't get udated in spite of changes in thinking, or increased knowledge, etc...don't know if that's the case with the chart you reference of not.
Speaking only for myself, since I know smaller granulations have a faster burn rate which means faster igniton and less barrel time, my go-to powder is always Goex 3F...in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cals...and it also happens to burn cleaner for me as well.
The only reasons I occasionally use 2F is if a particular load or barrel sems to be more accurate with it, or if the accuracy is as good and it gives milder recoil on a large caliber/heavy hunting load...that happens to be the case with .58 and .62cal PRB hunting loads...accuracy is no worse, recoil is less, and I have a whole case of Goex 2F with nothing else to use it in ;D.
If I get at or near the top of a load data chart and decide to substitute Goex 3F for a Goex 2F charge, a rule-of-thumb is to reduce the Goex 3F charge by 10-15% to keep the pressures in the same range, for example...if I used 110grns Goex 2F, I'd drop back to 90-95grns Goex 3F.
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One thing about having 3f it can double as your pan powder in your flintlock if you run out of 4f. I have probably shot more 3f in my .54's than 2f for the main charge.
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Based on accuracy in our guns, Taylor and I have always used .50 cal as the 'changing' calibre from 3F to 2F. We've found when loaded to the same speed at 3F, 2F gives virtually identical or better accuracy - perhaps due to lower shot to shot velocity variations.
When we were starting out in BP shooting, we quickly found that 2f fouled less for us so we used it in all calibres from .36 on up. That was with the powders available in the 70's. Today, we see no difference in fouling between 3f and 2F due to the ball and patch combinations we currently use and have been using now for 40 years :o . No powder fouls just shoot and shoot and shoot - no buildup - ever.
Currently, I am shooting only 3f in my .32, however I do have accuracy loads in both .40 and .45 with 2f powder, so it matters not which I have on hand. I know dang well if I went up 5 to 10gr. in charge weight, I'd have a new accuracy load for 2F in the .32 as well.
That's the way it works for those small calibres. 5 to 10gr. increase for 2F to match the 3F ballistics - speed and accuracy. Always keep in mind, that 2f produces less pressure than 3F at any given velocity. The lower the powder's developed pressure, the less 'pressure' on the patch's integrity. That means for those with what we call loose combinations, those using patches from .010" to .015", 2F will probalby shoot better as it won't be as prone to burning out your patch, which destroys accuracy. Something to bear in mind.
The Ogre can fill us or you in on the apparent powder mix that was used 'back then'. The granulations used actually being a mix of what we today call 3f and 2F. It is quite an interesting ride. Now, if I mistakenly mix a can of powder, I really don't care - reduce the load to the middle of the normal difference between granulations and go shooting. Come to think on that, if that's all that was available - a mix of 3f and 2F, I know I could make it shoot.
I firmly believe it matters not what you use, either 2F or 3F as long as you find it's most accurate load - use a tight patch, get out and shoot - try to wear that barrel out.
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Interesting information, Daryl. Thanks. Fff vs. ff has always been a puzzle to me. And you just introduced a new one for me. I'm no physicist--and not much of a shot anymore--but help me out here. It seems counterintuitive to me that shots out of the same barrel with 2f vs 3f and achieving the same velocity would have to have achieved the same pressures. I don't understand how you get the same velocity with a lower pressure load. I'm missing something here. Am I misreading you?
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The old Lyman black powder catalog listed loads for 3f and 2f. In their reference they compared the two and one example comes out where 100 grains 3f gave 1740 at 11700 CUP and 140 grains of 2f gave 1779 and 8500 LUP of pressure. LUP is used at lower pressures than CUP and is a lower pressure load. While I have not seen quite that difference to get the same velocity, more like 20 grains 2f is credited with lower pressures. When I chronographed a 54 I found that 2f also gave about half shot to shot variation over 3f. Another issue that can come into play is what 3f and what 2f ??? I use Swiss 2f in my hunting rifles and need 10 grains less of it than GOEX. Grafs 3f fouls less in my 25 than does GOEX but GOEX gives more velocity.
DP
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Kermit. Peak pressure is only one factor. Duration is another. Using more of a slower powder will give you a longer pulse but with a lower peak. Depends on what a person is trying to optimize for. Minimal fouling, best accuracy, least powder for a given velocity, lowest pressure for a given velocity, hunting vs target shooting. Each one of those probably needs a different granulation and amount.
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When you are reading charts accompanying factory muzzle loading rifles, T/C for instance, the tendency is to recommend FFG in .45 & .50 caliber rifles simply to protect the manufacturer from possible litigation that could arise from "going overboard" with a load.
We all know that 100 grains of FFG is equal to 100 grains of FFFG in weight.*(In error-see below)
But 100 grains of FFG IS NOT equal to 100 grains of FFFG in velocity and energy.
I recall (correct me if I'm wrong) that 100 grains of FFFG is about equal to 140 grains of FFG in velocity and energy. Obviously, FFFG burns faster and creates pressure faster; this why manufacturers of muzzle loading rifles are recommending FFG, its "Protection" in court in case of a lawsuit.
I remember when Douglas Barrel Company out of WV quit making muzzle loading barrels because of a lawsuit forcing them to make that decision. There comes a point when its just not worth the expense of another possible lawsuit.
We can recommend FFFG to a new shooter because we DON'T have "deep pockets" like manufacturers. If you're going to sue and collect, you're going to sue the manufacturer. Not us posting on a forum. ;)
* An error on my part- Sentence should read:
"We all know that 100 grains of FFG is equal to 100 grains of FFFG in volume.
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We all know that 100 grains of FFG is equal to 100 grains of FFFG in weight.
A grain is a unit of weight, not a unit of volumetric measurement. In the grand universe of collective muzzleloading ignorance, "we" do not know the above fact because "we" load with calibrated powder measures, not a set of scales. Largely, only a select few looking for extreme accuracy weigh their charges when developing loads.
Joe HornBlower uses his powder measure, usually not even being aware that such measures are calibrated with X granulation of Y branded powder and are inaccurate with other brands and granulations. In addition, powder densities vary among brands. One cannot draw any accurate conclusions when loading this way, and extrapolations are largely meaningless.
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Thanks, T*O*F
I stand corrected, and made note of it in my entry.
I meant to say volume instead of weight "...equal to 100 grains of FFFG in volume." Got confused last night.
I was only trying to make the point for Manufacturers choosing FFG as the recommended grade for gun owners in "Litigation-USA".
In the past, we had few choices as to black powder, mostly GOEX. Now, there are about six or seven choices of Domestic & Imported powders, which hopefully will keep muzzle loading alive.
Thanks, again.
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We all know that 100 grains of FFG is equal to 100 grains of FFFG in weight.
A grain is a unit of weight, not a unit of volumetric measurement. In the grand universe of collective muzzleloading ignorance, "we" do not know the above fact because "we" load with calibrated powder measures, not a set of scales. Largely, only a select few looking for extreme accuracy weigh their charges when developing loads.
Joe HornBlower uses his powder measure, usually not even being aware that such measures are calibrated with X granulation of Y branded powder and are inaccurate with other brands and granulations. In addition, powder densities vary among brands. One cannot draw any accurate conclusions when loading this way, and extrapolations are largely meaningless.
I know of only a very few who use calibrated measures - they are usually very new to the sport & haven't found an accurate load for their rifle yet.
I assume virtually everyone makes their own measures after finding the most accurate load for the gun, or merely purchases a custom made measure that throws the charge they want, then check that against a scale.
Much depends on how accurate ie:anal, they want to be.
Buck- your 'drift' came through loud and clear.
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I use the adjustable measures but have calibrated them against a scale. Generally a scale that says it drops 70 grains will need to be set at about 72-75 to get 70 grains so that the litigation may be causing them to hedge a bit also. My pistol measure set for my 20 grains is set at about 23 grains volume. This is with Grafs 3f or GOEX as they are about the same. When I tried phoney powders like 777 I calibrated the weight against a calibrated scale set for BP. I would weight 3 charges of 777 in a measure set at 70 grains and then use that weight on a scale to load BP cartridges. Amazing how dangerous some thought that by using say 56 grains by weight of Pyrodex in a 45-70 as compared to 70 grains of 2f. The manuals say use volume only and I was weighing the stuff. What is more amusing is that most home made powder measures are calibrated agains a commercila powder measure and no against a scale. I use the scale as you can always duplicate an accurate load if you know the weight. If you lose the measure the next one may not measure the same.
DP
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Right on Dave - we've crossed that bridge a number of times, noting that once a good charge is found, weigh it and record that weight in your 'rifle's loading manual (your record of how it shoots with what), so a new measure can be made if necessary.
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Thanks for your input. What I learn comes from here as I don't have access to anyone local with experience. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to blow anything up.
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We all know that 100 grains of FFG is equal to 100 grains of FFFG in weight.
A grain is a unit of weight, not a unit of volumetric measurement.
Sorry to say that but a grain is a mass unit to have a weight you need the mass and the Earth's gravity
F = m*g
but thatīs more a technical point of view.
Itīs not easy to explain thing in another language.
For using 3 FFF in rifles, here in Old europe itīs quite normal to shot Schweizer 2 you know it as swisspowder 3 FFF in rifles, but here we punch holes in paper and accuracy is the only point that counts.
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In all my years of shooting, I have always fooled with my adjustable measure to come up with a good shooting load, and
used that. I never really weighed it on a powder scale, it didn't matter to me, after I found what worked well, why does
it really matter if it is a few grains off..........it won't blow the gun up. ..........Don
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weigh it and record that weight in your 'rifle's loading manual
They have loading manuals? No wonder I have so much trouble.
Don, it sounds like we had the same teacher. ;)
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I ordered a case of powder and since I figured a 54 takes about half again as much powder as a 45 I asked for 15# of 2F, 8 # of 3F and 2# of 4F. I then discovered that the 45 had become my favorite rifle, and since 3F was starting to run low, began using the 2F. Didn't really seem to make a whole lot of practical difference in day to day shooting. Match shooting , maybe. Along the way I also discovered that 2F works pretty well for prime also. Now it seems that I have about a 100 year supply of 4F, but that's OK. It will prime the cannon if I ever get brave enough to quit using fuse.
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Don, that was my original concern- that there was some reason that FFFg should not be used in rifles, that appears to not be a problem and apparently I am not going to be vaporized while working out a load if I do end up using FFFg. ;D ;D
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Very good discussion here. I've always used 3F in the .45 but now I think I'll explore some more variables and see how well 2F works. Thanks gentlemen for the advice. Never quite seen it explained that way. :)
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And due to a misinformed newbie error mentioned elsewhere I need to order some actual black powder. Any suggestions on what I should get? The current build is a .50. The next builds are 2 .54 pistols for my boys, a .60, a .36 and 2 .54 rifles, etc... Should I get some FFg and FFFg? No shops anywhere near where I can get a can of each to try. Thanks, James
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg715.imageshack.us%2Fimg715%2F8610%2Fbild000t.jpg&hash=f093f1010dd892daa5a39290ce102eb2c3199002)
cal .54 , 64 gn Schweizer 2 , 50 m standing offhand, 20 shots
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Due to Haz Mat fees I usualy order at least 5lbs of powder at a time and can mix it. Even in the large bores 3f works good as a lighter "target" load. Looking at your future builds I would go about half and half. The 36 would work with 2f but probably like 3f better and I like 3f in pistols. Again I go back to different powder brands make as much difference as granulation. 2f Swiss would likely work in all applications. Graf's powder is not all bad and fouls less for me than GOEX but GOEX has more boom.
DP
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And due to a misinformed newbie error mentioned elsewhere I need to order some actual black powder. Any suggestions on what I should get? The current build is a .50. The next builds are 2 .54 pistols for my boys, a .60, a .36 and 2 .54 rifles, etc... Should I get some FFg and FFFg? No shops anywhere near where I can get a can of each to try. Thanks, James
Safe bet that your source will gladly mix it as you want it. :)
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I use Goex 3fg in everything from .32 to .75. For me it burns cleaner and gives better accuracy.
Centershot
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I use Goex 3fg in everything from .32 to .75. For me it burns cleaner and gives better accuracy.
Centershot
Thanks for that tidbit CS, I was going to buy some GOEX ffg for my new 58 cal Rice barrel, but I have LOTS of fffg, so I'll play with it first. As well as cleaner, one can achieve good velocities with less powder using fffg compared to ffg. Your observations make sense to me!
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I'd rather find out what the rifle preferred. What I's rather use is imaterial, to me. I still don' t get the cleaner burning deal.
Before Taylor and I knew what we were doing with loads, ie: ball and patch combinations, we both discovered that found 2 F fouled less than 3F - go figure.
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discovered that 2 F fouled less than 3F - go figure.
It would make sense for 2f to burn cleaner as it burns more evenly down the barrel rather than all at once in the "chamber".
I will eventually try 2f Daryl, I just have 8 pounds of 3f on hand, why buy more powder if this will work? I'll know with the first can if 3f will work. I can always burn the remaining 3f in my ROA. ;)
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I'd rather find out what the rifle preferred. What I's rather use is imaterial, to me. I still don' t get the cleaner burning deal.
Before Taylor and I knew what we were doing with loads, ie: ball and patch combinations, we both discovered that found 2 F fouled less than 3F - go figure.
There are so many variables here that a person can run in circles.
I was out shooting the 50 a couple of days ago with FF Swiss, first try of this but I have lot more FF than FFF and found that equal volume, same measure, the FF fouled worse. Lots worse. ???
I did not expect this but thats what I found. From what I "know" FF should have shot as clean as FFF maybe a little cleaner. I would also point out that Swiss is pretty uniform, no significant variations from lot to lot.
I was shooting offhand for practice and did not do a serious accuracy test. Had I not been wiping every shot I would have had real problems. This will require more shooting I think. I was using water soluble oil soaked patches that are allowed to dry before use leaving only a slightly greasy feeling patch.
I have no idea of all the variables. Breech designs can/may/should effect how the powder burns.
I tested a 58 with FF and FFF swiss and at 110 grains it fouled REALLY bad. At 90 it shot clean.
My 16 bore with 140-170 grains of FF will not show this. Though in percentage of ball weight 110 in a 58 is still a heavier load.
It has a Nock breech, the 50 has a patent breech with a smaller diameter chamber running back to the vent. The 58 has a cupped breech.
Why did the 58 show really nasty fouling, I was REALLY surprized, with a 110 of either granulation and the 50 shoots clean with a larger charge relative to bore size?
Did the 58 have just the right bore size to charge volume to produce this? I never saw it with my 58 years ago shooting Dupont and GOI.
I have been told by someone I trust completely is such matters, that the heavy white fouling that I found in the 58 and to s lightly lesser extent in the 50 with FF is the result of high burn temps. Swiss is hotter than other powders. But FFF in the same volume in the same barrel should produce the higher temp ???
So...
As with powder charges the rifle will make the choice.
Gotta run
Dan
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I don't know what the answer or reasons are Dan - I hear you - but feel it's got to be something to do with the Swiss powder. I've never used it, but would like to test it sometime in my .40 and .45 along with the big .69.
Just why your .50 shoots cleaner than and with much more powder than the .58 is a puzzle for sure. Perhaps the breech is part of the answer - maybe not. My Pedersoli Kodiak has cupped patent breeches in it's .58 tubes. It seems to foul not at all with GOEX - from 82gr. 2F GOEX to 120gr. 2f GOEX, the highest I've shot due to regulation problems starting with that load. There is seemingly no 'felt' difference in bore fouling, over that 40gr. charge increase. I use the rifles' 3/8" hickory rod for loading. It does best with 110gr. 2F, where the barrels regulate perfectly shooting exactly parralel at all ranges - neither converging nor diverging and shoot exactly the same elevation as well. It is my most accurate 'trail walk' rifle. Imagine- a DR! The 50th load goes down exactly the same as the first.
I have, over the years, used about 4 other makes of powders and all of them have shown me virtually the same deal - for me, 2F fouls less than 3F - I had always chocked it up to faster, hotter burning thus higher early peak pressures of 3F, which would logically tax the patch/ball seal intergrity more greatly, due to higher pressures exerted on the ball/bore junction, ie; patch seal. Seems this would be especially prevelent in the smaller bores, with their higher working pressures to start with, the trend indicated in Lyman's BP loading book. This goes to the powder weight vs. ball weight that Dan was hinting at. Incredibly, look at how much powder it took to develope even modest pressure in the .58 and .75!!
Cleaner shooting and patch integrity is why Tracy shot only 2f in her .36 Seneca - and used to beat us (Taylor and I) both- o, we didn't shoot at 25 yards- hardly every except for card and string cuts- small stuff - yeah- we could see then. The cleaner burning trait also showed in the larger bores, which is why we then used 2F exclusively in just about everything.
When I got the .45(re-barreled .50) - my first ML since the .69 in .'86, I tried 3F GOEX in it at the range as the local store didn't have 2f and I was out of powder. I found it would print nice 1/2" groups with LHV lube and 75gr. 3F GOEX. I had no fouong problems using a .445" ball and .022" denim patch. It also printed the same groups using 85gr. 2F, later on in testing, with what seemed identical fouling - virtually none. I also found, with a water based lube, I could reduce those powder charges to 50gr. 3F and 60gr. 2F and maintain the prior accuracy, although muzzle velocity was very much lower than before - dropping to the piddly 1,600fps range.
Incidently, where the LHV (slippery) lube demanded relatively huge powder charges & had a very narrow accuracy range of charges it would allow, the water based lube (WWWF/Oil) gave virtually identical accuracy as the slippery lubes(1/2"-3/4" @ 50yds) - accuracy over a very WIDE charge range.
The oil was just not so easy to get long with as it had very narrow range of working well - but - knowing what charge is needed for an oiled patch for hunting, is necessary. The only way to find out what powder granulation and how much of that granulation is needed, is to shoot both and find out what the gun wants.
It is a foolish 'guess' to work up a load for trail walks, sighting, of course for that load, then merely switching to a 'hutning-type charge with an oiled patch for hunting, without first seeing what the gun wants to use with that oiled patch- with the granulation. It could be, it wants X grains of 3F for oil and Y grains of 2f for water lubed patches - only after testing all the varaiables, can an 'accurate' decision be made.
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I shoot a 50 and 58. Same mfg barells, same powder (GOEX FFG), same patching, breaches. 100gr in both shoots clean. 120 in the 58 is noticably more fouled but not so bad I can't load it easy enough. My 58 does seem to foul worse for what is effectively a lighter charge for the bore size. Only difference in this example is bore diameter and rifling dimensions(same twist and number though).
It would be interesting to shoot several along side Dan's to have indentical loads and weather conditions and see how they all compare.
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I shoot a 50 and 58. Same mfg barells, same powder (GOEX FFG), same patching, breaches. 100gr in both shoots clean. 120 in the 58 is noticably more fouled but not so bad I can't load it easy enough. My 58 does seem to foul worse for what is effectively a lighter charge for the bore size. Only difference in this example is bore diameter and rifling dimensions(same twist and number though).
It would be interesting to shoot several along side Dan's to have indentical loads and weather conditions and see how they all compare.
Dave, I think I see a trend here. It seems the larger bore might produce much less pressure, causing an incomplete burn of the charge. I wonder if 3f might not be a better choice in the 58 to keep those pressures up? If you reload modern cartridges, you'll notice the large bore shotguns use dramatically faster powders for that same reason: bore capacity. This begs some serious experimentation! I'll still have the 50 cal barrel & being a hooked breach Hawken, a simple switch to go from 50 to 58 cal. As this thread progresses I am begining to think 3f may be the best powder in 58 cal after all!
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I shoot FFFg Swiss Powder behind round, patched balls ("rpb") in my three .50 caliber traditional rifles... 2 percussion cap Hawkens (1:48 twist) and a flintlock Long Rifle (1:66 twist).
Mostly, I shoot light target loads consisting of 20-25 grains (measured by volume) at 25 yards and up to 47 grains at 50 yards. FFFg Swiss Powder is somewhat "hotter" than FFFg Goex which gives higher velocity than the same amount of Goex. Both the FFFg Swiss and the FFFg Goex produce more muzzle velocity than an equal amount (measured by volume) of FFg in either Swiss or Goex.
I haven't taken my shorter (26-inch barrel) Hawken deer hunting yet and so I haven't "worked up" a hunting load for the little 6.5 pound Hawken Carbine as yet, but I intend to do that as soon as it warms up a bit this year. However, from everything I've read at the several black powder forums which I attend, a charge of 65-80 grains of black powder will shoot a .50 caliber, 177 grain round, patched ball all the way through a deer at 80 yards or less... and my self-imposed range limit for taking a shot at deer is 80 yards.
I hope this post helps you... :)
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
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Harnic.
I have wondered about using faster powder in larger bores. I see some behavior in larger bores that seems contradictory and different from what I would expect. To really look into it effectively and safely I need a pressure transducer, oscope and barrels rifled the way I want them to be. A lot of my questions take a alot more time and money than I care to put into it to do it right, but I'm still curious.
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Dave, as with smokeless loads, rifle versus shotgun, the larger bore will require lighter charges of faster powder. It's quite likely that to achieve the fastest velocities for hunting loads it may be advisable to use 2f powder, but in my case I will not be hunting & I bet I can come up with a great, clean-burning target load in my new 58 barrel, staying under 100 grs of 3f which will be plenty safe in a 1" across the flats barrel. I'll be starting at 70 grs & working up until I get the best groups or I get to 100 grs when I'll switch to the slower powder. As a test I'll try 2f as well, chronographing all loads to see how they compare. It ought to be an interesting experiment!
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Harry- you may have to increase the thickness of your patching to use anything over 90gr. 3f in that .58, due to the pressure, but if anything like my 2 .58's, 80 to 110gr. 2F will be a good all-round loads. 80gr. is just fine in the 24", 48" twist Musketoon and 100gr. shoots well in the Double Rifle by Pedersoli - whatever it's twist might be - I haven't measured it. note, 2F - shoots cleanly and seems to give enough speed for the targets we have. As 110gr. regulated perfectly at all ranges, it would be a long range load for shooting one set of sights.
This might all be a mistake, segregating 3f and 2F as the Ogre noted. Pehaps a mix of the two powders would blend their properties and be best overall.
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I have some heavy cotton duck which should fit the bill Daryl. I haven't decided whether it'll be 2f or 3f, that will be decided by which meets my needs best. I hope 3f will work well as I have a fair stock of it & it would seem to me it'll end up being more economical to shoot. Time will tell. ;) As far as blending goes... no thanks! I like my muzzle loading as simple as I can make it! ;D
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always used fffg in any and calibers and smooth bores as well..
prime with same horn..water clean up..simple cheap and easy.. ;D
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always used fffg in any and calibers and smooth bores as well..
prime with same horn..water clean up..simple cheap and easy.. ;D
I'm with ya' on that. 'Cept I can't seem to pry myself away from 4F for prime. Guess cause I got so much of it including an unopened can of Dupont.
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When speaking of faster powders and larger bore, is there any chance that the energy is utilized better with the larger surface area of the projectile for the energy to act upon, or does the larger ball get headed down the bore sooner?
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I believe it all boils down to "bore capacity". Obviously a larger bore has much more capacity & therefore a more rapid build-up of pressure (within the safety limitations of the steel barrel) would aid in getting the projectile moving & achieving a good velocity.
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Harry - the opposite rules. The sharper the blow the greater the pressure required just to get the ball moving. You can push a heavier door to get it moving, than you can slap with your palm. The slower (larger granulation) powder is more efficient and produces less peak pressure.
Shotguns used/use faster powders so the muzzle pressure will be lower, which is thought to impove patterns - makes sense.
Even in a modern shotgun, a fast powder cannot give the speeds a slower powder can, within pressure ceilings.
In other words, you can ultimately get a ball moving faster with 2f than 3F in a 12 bore at max pressure. The pressure will be too great in most 12 bores using 3f and a 1 1/4oz. ball at a speed of only 1,600fps, yet with 2f, that velocity can be exceeded within pressure limits. This is an example only, but explains the cause and effect. I've shot 1 1/4oz. RB's from a 12 bore at 1,700fps - it is not for the timid.
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G'morning Daryl! If a high velocity with accuracy was my goal I would more or less agree with you here, but as I stated earlier, a lighter, economical target load with decent accuracy is my target. I don't need 1600-1700 fps for paper or steel targets, they're bloody unlikely to come after me if I don't knock them down. I had a Parker Hale Musketoon years ago, but never tried round balls in it so I stuck with 2f Goex. Up to now my rifle shooting has been 54 cal & smaller, all of which worked VERY well with 3f. I suspect 58 cal in a rifle will prove to be the transition between the 2 grades of powder. I plan on giving the old Chrony a good workout in a couple weeks to see what the difference in performance will be. At least 95% of my muzzle-loading shooting happens at well under 100 meters, so I don't need to get a flat shooting, hard kicking load worked up in the new barrel. It will be fun & interesting to see where this leads me.
The 1700 fps r/b loads in a 12 ga DO get your attention... especially in a light pump shotgun! ;) I used to carry them all the time when bird hunting in bear country. Very accurate in my gun, but painful! :o
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Sorry for the misunderstanding, Harry.
In large bore round ball loads, 3F is inappropriate. If it works for you due to physical stature & choice of using light loads for close paper punching - that's up to you.
What's best or proper for a bore size was the gist of this thread - I thought.
In the 12 bore heavy load, I was referring to 9 dram loads, Harry not smokeless - have you tried that load? That's 246gr. of 2F with a 545gr. ball. If used in a ctg. gun as built in England in the late 1890's, it takes a 3" hull to hold it all, plus wads, of course. What fun!
Cherio!
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In the 12 bore heavy load, I was referring to 9 dram loads, Harry not smokeless - have you tried that load? That's 246gr. of 2F with a 545gr. ball. If used in a ctg. gun as built in England in the late 1890's, it takes a 3" hull to hold it all, plus wads, of course. What fun!
Cherio!
OUCH! That sounds nasty! No I never shoot bp in cartridge guns Daryl, it's a p.i.t.a to clean, brass, bore, inner workings & all. I restrict bp to muzzle loaders. I rarely shoot real bp from my ROA either, Triple Seven works so well in it. I'm going to have to put at least another 50 pounds back on before I start shooting anything with much recoil! No meat left on these shoulder bones at all!
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In the 12 bore heavy load, I was referring to 9 dram loads, Harry not smokeless - have you tried that load? That's 246gr. of 2F with a 545gr. ball. If used in a ctg. gun as built in England in the late 1890's, it takes a 3" hull to hold it all, plus wads, of course. What fun!
Cherio!
OUCH! That sounds nasty! No I never shoot bp in cartridge guns Daryl, it's a p.i.t.a to clean, brass, bore, inner workings & all. I restrict bp to muzzle loaders. I rarely shoot real bp from my ROA either, Triple Seven works so well in it. I'm going to have to put at least another 50 pounds back on before I start shooting anything with much recoil! No meat left on these shoulder bones at all!
BP fouling cleans from the barrels easier than smokeless fouling and plastic. There is no other cleaning to do - throw the hulls away. For a more gentle load, use only 6 drams (191gr.) It's only good for 1,550fps, but kicks about 1/2 as much. Only one 180 degrees of revolution. ;D
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Lol! We're getting good at misunderstandings here Daryl. I very rarely shoot smoothbores anymore & never with bp. I was referring to my 45 Sharps & I found a small amount of fouling would find it's way into the action of my rifle after a day at the range, plus the brass needed to be washed out with water after use. Just gettin' lazy in my old age! ;)
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Lol! We're getting good at misunderstandings here Daryl. I very rarely shoot smoothbores anymore & never with bp. I was referring to my 45 Sharps & I found a small amount of fouling would find it's way into the action of my rifle after a day at the range, plus the brass needed to be washed out with water after use. Just gettin' lazy in my old age! ;)
Shooting smokeless in a BPCR can range from frustrating, at longer ranges at least, to dangerous.
Duplication of BP ballistics with smokeless especially in larger capacity cases is a prime cause of burst firearms.
IMR powders are especially bad for this both Dupont and Phil Sharpe learned this the hard way (I assume) back when the IMRs first hit the market. Faster powders, Unique especially, are notorious for ringing chambers.
I shoot HV smokeless in the Marlin. The 40-60 Maynard (chambered for pistol primers only) and 45-100 get black exclusively.
Shoots better at least past 100-200 yards and lower risk.
Dan
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Dan, my 45 Sharps (the Sharps version of a 45-70) is extremely forgiving & works exceptionally well with several different smokeless powders (& has for 20+ years) including 2400 with cork filler wads, which I prefer, but that's getting way too far off topic & belongs in a different forum! ;)
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2f is for rifles
3f is for pistols.the end
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Dan, my 45 Sharps (the Sharps version of a 45-70) is extremely forgiving & works exceptionally well with several different smokeless powders (& has for 20+ years) including 2400 with cork filler wads, which I prefer, but that's getting way too far off topic & belongs in a different forum! ;)
Very big name in handloading shot 22 or 24 gr of 2400 in 45-70 for 30+ years until one day he blew off several fingers. He was warned but the guy that warned him was younger and he had done it so long he was sure it was "safe".
I don't use fillers they range from a PITA to dangerous.
Unique will produce 100s of chamber rings if used long enough in a 45-70 from the case web to case mouth (Lyman has pulled the loads from their books IIRC). Finally it will ring at the base of the bullet enough to mark the case and the customer then thinks its the maker's fault. Has happened to both Shiloh and Ruger that I know of. The shooter eats the barrel BTW.
The number of old and new guns damaged or destroyed with reduced loads of smokeless is scary. Fillers may help or make it worse depending.
There are other stories but this is not the place.
Dan
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yip - fill that case with 2f or H4895 and have done with it.
CB's got a point. I've found 2f to shoot well in every rifle I've tried it in down to .36 cal. AND no, it has never shot dirtier for me in any rifle.
I might just try a 50/50 mix come summer and see what the results are.
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You folks have settled it- as we will be shooting rifles and pistols I will order a mixed lot of FFg &FFFg. Thanks, James
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yip - fill that case with 2f or H4895 and have done with it.
CB's got a point. I've found 2f to shoot well in every rifle I've tried it in down to .36 cal. AND no, it has never shot dirtier for me in any rifle.
I might just try a 50/50 mix come summer and see what the results are.
I was surprised the 50 fouled the way it did with ff everything says it would not do this but would produce softer fouling.
I am assuming its some idiosyncrasy.
I shoot FFF in almost everything, the 16 bore being the sole exception. But right now I have a lot more FF than anything else...
A friend has been getting very good accuracy from 1.5F Swiss in a 45 and a 40 as well IIRC.
This tells me that coarse powder will work in almost any rifle. But I think the same shooter has gone back to FFF Swiss in a 50 caliber he owns.
I just got in the habit of shooting FFF in 50-58 over 40 years ago when it was all I had on hand and I had built first a 50 and then a 58 caliber rifle, I shot what I had.
Dan
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Dan- that's the way I got to be with FFG until I got the .45- then tried 3F first.
The only thing I have against using 2F in the .40 and .45, is about every 8 shots or so, I get a hard piece of fouling plugging the vent and have to prick the vent. Of course, if using it for hunting, I'd prick the vent every time it was loaded so the flash in the pan wouldn't happen. this fouling might be coming off the scraper side (vent cover) of the frizzen, or from the inside, which I doubt due to the gasses venting out the vent under pressure.
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I use Goex 3fg in everything from .32 to .75. For me it burns cleaner and gives better accuracy.
Centershot
Center,
No matter what granulation, a good shooting load can be found.IMHO.
Getting the basics down by having a nice radiused crown,tight patch/ball/bore combination and a good lube are foremost. Myself, I like the larger granulation. I guess this goes back to my smokeless days of getting a complete burn within the full barrel length.(barrels I own are 42" and longer) I think this theory holds true with BP also.
Now if I shot pistols, I might shoot 3f in everything.
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Have always (30 yrs.) used 3 fg in my 45 long gun and 62 tulle . My 45 has a large siler and have used 3fg for prime with great results.
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And I was frustrated with the patterns I was gettin in my .36 cal using 3f. Tried every patch, ball, charge, lube combo I could think of. No good. Tried 2f and suddenly patterns became groups.
It just boils down to what the gun wants to shot acurately.....Lynn
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Lynn, I had the same experience in a .32! Tried every combination of patch, lube, ball with 3F. Then tried 2F, and was suddenly getting groups.
I think one of the difference is consistency - the 3F can settle more when filling the measure as compared to 2F, and perhaps increases velocity variability shot to shot. Regardless, I use 2F in all of my rifles now.
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2f is for rifles
3f is for pistols.the end
Yesterday was out shooting a percussion schuetzen rifle. Offhand at one hundred yards. Was using a 358-311 bullet with a two strip paper patch. Ran out of GOEX Express FFF so finished the string with 1 1/2 Swiss. Couldnt tell any difference. Loaded the same, shot the same, cleaned between shots the same, sounded the same, smoked the same, smelled the same (nice) :) . Think I'll start using up that twenty year old GOEX FF. I probly wont be able to tell the difference. :-\ :P ;D
Joe.
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Had the same rifle out today. Only thing different was the powder and day. Used the old Goex FF with the 7.95 price tag on it. Bullets printed six inches lower on the target. Report sounded dull. Seemed to burn a little dirtier, didnt have to change the cleaning routine.
So what does it all mean ??? Well, so far GOEX FFF Express and Swiss 1 1/2 works the same in my rifle. If I had my druthers, I'd use the GOEX FFF Express all the time. It's made in America, oh wait, the rifle was made in Munich. $#@*! Maybe I should use Swiss? I dont know what to do. :-\ :'(
Joe.
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im sure its been done but does anyone know of anyone who has combined 2x and 3x in the same load to get the fast burn of 3x and the long duration of 2x. what were the results. phil
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Had the same rifle out today. Only thing different was the powder and day. Used the old Goex FF with the 7.95 price tag on it. Bullets printed six inches lower on the target. Report sounded dull. Seemed to burn a little dirtier, didnt have to change the cleaning routine.
So what does it all mean ??? Well, so far GOEX FFF Express and Swiss 1 1/2 works the same in my rifle. If I had my druthers, I'd use the GOEX FFF Express all the time. It's made in America, oh wait, the rifle was made in Munich. $#@*! Maybe I should use Swiss? I dont know what to do. :-\ :'(
Joe.
If shooting a bullet you might try FG Swiss.
The old timers used to use FG almost exclusively with bullets.
1.5f is very close to FF Swiss.
I would think the Swiss would out shoot the goex but one never knows. It does in virtually everything else with very few exceptions.
Dan
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The last powder delivery I had to my house was shipped ups and the driver asked me what the $#*! it was as he stared at all the warning labels. I told him black powder and he just quickly turned and left. This was primarily 3f. Does 3f scare drivers more than 2f? ??? :D
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The last powder delivery I had to my house was shipped ups and the driver asked me what the $#*! it was as he stared at all the warning labels. I told him black powder and he just quickly turned and left. This was primarily 3f. Does 3f scare drivers more than 2f? ??? :D
The anti-gun folks in Canada have been waging a very effective scare campaign too. When non-shooters hear what a shooter's hobby is, the response of often wide-eyed fear... >:( We can thank Hollywierd, TV, & the news media. The main exposure to guns the average person has is the sensationalist $#@* that is spewed out on the big screen & our tvs.
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The last powder delivery I had to my house was shipped ups and the driver asked me what the $#*! it was as he stared at all the warning labels. I told him black powder and he just quickly turned and left. This was primarily 3f. Does 3f scare drivers more than 2f? ??? :D
R-O-F-L-M-A-O ... ;D
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The last powder delivery I had to my house was shipped ups and the driver asked me what the $#*! it was as he stared at all the warning labels. I told him black powder and he just quickly turned and left. This was primarily 3f. Does 3f scare drivers more than 2f? ??? :D
The anti-gun folks in Canada have been waging a very effective scare campaign too. When non-shooters hear what a shooter's hobby is, the response of often wide-eyed fear... >:( We can thank Hollywierd, TV, & the news media. The main exposure to guns the average person has is the sensationalist $#@* that is spewed out on the big screen & our tvs.
I couldn't agree with you more. I might point out that the RMCP is very, very insecure about anyone else besides them being armed. I've had more than one discussion with an RCMP officer in the past regarding this and the last time I was told that Canada "had different history and therefore shouldn't feel the same connection to firearms".
Why muzzleloaders have to be regarded as such a threat throughout the UK and Europe I'll never figure out. ???
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Guns and powder problems guys - lets not get into politics, please.
Yeah - we have problems with shipping - trucks that carry BP, can carry only BP - no other goods and must have Class "A" EXPOSIVE signs all the way around the truck. The individual cannot afford to have it shipped even if the local Puralator company will ship it (many won't) and they are the only one Federally licenced to do this, I am told. Most of us buy powder at Rondy. If you are in Calgary or Edmonton- maybe Kamloops?, I see Wholesale Sports has it for $17.95 per pound.
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Guns and powder problems guys - lets not get into politics, please.
maybe Kamloops?, I see Wholesale Sports has it for $17.95 per pound.
Nope, not Kamloops. They refuse to comply with the prohibitive storage regulations Canada has on black powder. They have most any smokeless or sub, but no real in Kamloops. I buy mine through our local muzzle loading club for $19 a pound. Best price locally. Only one shop, a gunsmith in Vernon carries black powder & he's $6 a pound more than Wholesale Sports.
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I shoot 2f or 3f depending on availabilty.Out here in Vegas ML supplies are hard to come by.
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That's good Harry! I pay 20bucks a pound in bulk. Thought I was getting a deal... Can you get me some in bulk? Call.
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That's good Harry! I pay 20bucks a pound in bulk. Thought I was getting a deal... Can you get me some in bulk? Call.
The club is pretty sticky about supplying non-members with powder & they only sell small amounts, you provide the can. Now that the GOEX plant blew up again, it'll get !@*%&@ hard to find powder at any price & count on a big price jump when they get back online. I'm going to build a caplock Hawken like Taylor did so I can shoots subs which will soon be less expensive than bp & more readily available.
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I think it's scare tactics myself. Ok, I'll put in my regular order today.
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I shoot 2f or 3f depending on availabilty.Out here in Vegas ML supplies are hard to come by.
Powder is hard to come by in lots of places.
Buffalo Arms in Idaho is still showing Swiss at just over 20 bucks a pound by the case, though a phone call might show an increase.
Things would have to really deteriorate for me to give 20 for Goex.
Dan
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Dan - it's the only thing we can get that cheap - Swiss if over $30.00 and locally, GOEX is over $40.00, of course he doesn't sell any to us - not sure just who his BP customers are?
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Just my two cents on the 1970's powder. I shot a James Lee and Sons - Perth, Scotland target rifle (Scotland wasn't written) on the US ML Team and was using 60GR FFFG with a 495GR cast projectile.
At the suggestion of Litton MCKenzie I purchased screens that were "go-no go" for FFG - FF and FFFFG and poured the Dupont powder into the system. When pouring the FFFG I ended up with a little over half a pound of FFF and the balance of FF with a considerable amount of some great FFFF.
On the range I had to increase the FFF from 60 to 90 grains to get the same results (point of impact) and the overall recoil was noticeably less with the 90 GR charge...more of a shove than a sharp recoil.
Not part of the issue, but with 60gr FFF and use of a mutton tallow/bees wax waffer I never had to clean the bore until after the 13 shot match. We once fired 49 shots and the last 10 shot group at 50 yards was as tight as the first 10
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Hey David-
Have you tried screening contemporary Goex?
I have a half dozen cans of the DuPont 3f powder dated 72 and 73, but haven't been able to find any real differences from contemporary Goex. That's surely a measure of the limits of my limited comparisons, but it begs the question about Goex.
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I would try 3F Swiss as well as 3F Goex -- aside from being labelled blackpowder and graded 3F by their makers, I don't think there is any fair comparison. Even as cheap as I am, it is difficult for me to keep using the Goex after I had a try with the Swiss, and if the price difference gets much smaller... Aside from the price difference, the only advantage I found of Goex over Swiss is that if you prime with it also instead of 4F, the Goex does not gunk up the pan in the same way the Swiss does :).
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Gentlemen,
When it comes to powder, like in many things, there is no free lunch. One pays for quality, plain and simple. I prefer Swiss for that reason.
Steve
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I wish I could find a dealer like Bass pro shops that sells Swiss powder by the can. They only carry Goex. I would like to buy just a pound of Swiss Null-B for primer powder.