AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: flintriflesmith on June 14, 2011, 05:25:45 AM
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This rifle is a family gun and the owner has asked to remain anonymous but I believe y'all will enjoy seeing the pictures and perhaps be able to shed some light on who and where.
To my limited knowledge of PA rifles it looks like an interesting mix of Lancaster and Lehigh/Allentown. Post your thoughts here or send me a PM.
Gary
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2FBox.jpg&hash=4021947a810f45e982e19d652505a0dae3d88753)
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Note curve to toe line and the slight step.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2Ftangcarving.jpg&hash=e03b532136a23ba7c0c5e92606c57213ebe7e1d3)
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Lock looks like a 1950-60 reconversion with Dixie Gun Works parts.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2Fguard.jpg&hash=c1d957f76ffff762dac1ea0c3f32482feb8acb5d)
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A few more pictures --- for some reason they wouldn't all fit in one posting.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2FButtPlt.jpg&hash=86ea326f7d36d60594cf5e39ff51270874f62435)
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Don't I see some Dickert influence ???
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I was thinking Dickert until I saw the side plate. If the side plate is original then may be it is the primary clue to attribution?
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John Brooks. There is nothing to make an attribution, but the smell is there. Prehaps someone with something I have not seen can find something similar. Lancaster then very early Harrisburg area.
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Could be one of the Aldenderfers. They began up in the north, but but went down to Lancaster. Kindig shows a grand rifle by one of them and there may be some common traits here with those guns. Nice rifle Gary, and I hope that you are going to assist in preserving it. Thank you for posting the photos. Much appreciated!
Dick
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Looks like that crazy bastard Isaac Berlin. :-X :o
I'm feeling a little silly this morning - no way to really pinpoint the gun but there are some interesting details thereupon and my first gut feel was Berlin, despite the wrapping....
On a side note, that "Lancaster Daisy" absolutely DID get used up the Delaware river between Philadelphia and Easton.
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I assume you are pretty certain it is from PA, but for what it's worth the patchbox, carving and tang shape look to have some similarities to guns attributed as early Piedmont North Caroilina guns - i.e. some of those that look like the work of transplanted PA makers.
Guy
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Thanks for posting the pictures Gary, it's a very interesting rifle. I agree that it's Pennsylvania, but every picture seems to show features from a different region of Eastern PA. Sometimes you just never know for sure who the maker was, but I do know that I would like to have it in my collection! 8)
FK
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There are those who have created that new "Alemengle" school, maybe this gun should be the start of a new Lancaster-
York school, someone who lived right on the border. This is coming from memory, which isn't too good, but isn't the carving behind the tang somewhat York....Schroyer?.........Don
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With my limited knowledge of old originals - I am looking at the breech tang. If it is original to the gun, isn't the pointed tail indicative of "post 1800" even 1830's - 1840's on a Pennsylvania gun?
Hugh Toenjes
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It isn't the norm on Lancaster or York guns in the 18th century. Some PA rifles occasionally used the notched/thumbnail finial. There may be least one or two "unattributed/maybe PA/maybe southern" guns in RCA that have pointed tangs. But squared/flared seems to be the norm.
On the other hand, short pointed tangs like this were not uncommon by the 1790s (if not 1780s) in Virgnia and North Carolina.
And as has been pointed out, this gun saw a lot of use so it could have been rebreeched.
The York and Lancaster influences traveled far southward by 1780. Those locations, as well as Maryland, Virginia or North Carolina would not surprise me for this gun.
Guy
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I'm with you on this, Guy, although I assume the PA attribution has some basis. Transplant to NC via several moves in Valley of Va.. would be my guess. The sideplate (not unlike Upper Valley designs), patchbox and star would not be impossible anywhere, although the patchbox looks more at home in NC outside of PA. Something about the toe line is remarkable. The double molding line and the stepped wrist are early (as suggested by BP) Va. or NC, but don't look like SW Va. typically does due to lines cut in BP, esp. in conjunction with that curve. The tang looks dubious to me, but suggests SW Va. or more likely NC in light of the other things.
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... And as has been pointed out, this gun saw a lot of use so it could have been rebreeched.
Guy
If you look carefully at the inletting of the tang and the way the carving (although damaged) flows around it, I believe you will see no evidence of the barrel being rebreeched.
Gary
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It looks original to me too Gary, but I will be the first to admit I have a hard enough time spotting such modifications when I have them in hand, much less photos ;) - so I trust your judgment! Personally, I am hoping it is the original tang.
PS - I really like the small eight pointed star carved in the area surrounded by the C-scroll behind the cheek - anyone seen this on another rifle? Looks fairly unique. The little incised knobs on the lock and sidplate panel molding finials are also a little atypical and may also help pin it down - although they do turn up now and then - even on English guns.
Guy
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It's later and I've had a lot of coffee, so I don't feel so silly now. The more I look at it, the more strongly I feel that there is a connection to Berlin, or I should say, the signed rifle and the unsigned pieces attributed to him in comparison. Also, I have examined a rifle which I feel is probably an early John Moll with almost identical tang carving - not that it really means anything, but there it is. I feel pretty strongly that this rifle has some kind of Northampton County connection.
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Gary, Is the forend cap open on the end? Does kinda look like a Allentown rear sight too. Smylee
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Compare the sideplate to the one in this thread:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16364.msg153644#msg153644
That one is believed likely to be Va., but also is unknown. To me, the sideplates look almost identical in design, just a bit different in execution.
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Forgive me, but I see little or no relationship between these sideplates
other than the silhouette which is only similar.
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I see the combo of Northampton and Lancaster signatures but not the Berlin connection. Distinctive lock panels on most Berlin guns and can't imagine him not engraving the patchbox. Some influence tho.
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Just for fun I will throw this out there - the buttstock architecture - i.e. the just slightly curved toe and the way the lower straight edge of the cheekpiece gets carried forward and rearward a bit past the edges of the cheekpiece itself - sort of undercutting those areas - calls to mind some of William Antes' work. Patchbox could also fall into his stylistic realm. I have not studied his work in enough detail to speak to any other possible similarities.
Guy
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Gary, you mentioned this is a family gun. Does that mean it has been in someone's family for many generations? If so, it would be interesting to hear the family's perspective on its origins, and where the family was from. It is rare for a piece like this to have a potential history connected to it.
Dave
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Are there initials on the back of that buttplate? I see a WH or HM, depending on which way you look at it - like they were scratched in a long time ago. Could just be coincidence, staining or scratches that look like initials.
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One would *expect* the box to be engraved, but then the sideplate is shaped for engraving also and yet is blank.... it may simply be an issue of what someone was willing to pay for.
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Left butt carving, including how the lower edge of the cheek piece is handled, looks very much like John Haga, Lancaster. This patchbox is simpler than JH's, this sideplate much fancier. Me I think the butt is Lancaster . . . no comment on patchbox.
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Gary, you mentioned this is a family gun. Does that mean it has been in someone's family for many generations? If so, it would be interesting to hear the family's perspective on its origins, and where the family was from. It is rare for a piece like this to have a potential history connected to it.
Dave
It has been in the same family for many years but there is no solid documentation on when it was acquired. The family has roots on central and western PA but, without knowing how long they had the rifle, we have know way of knowing where it came from or even if it was purchased directly from the maker or second hand.
Not that it seems to apply here, but lots of good southern antiques found there way north during and right after the Civil War! Some of the southern rifles in the Kindig collection apparently made that trip.
gary
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I think these cropped images may show some details that are not obvious in the bigger pictures posted earlier.
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Star engraving and method of attachment. Thumb piece is also attached by a single silver nail in the center but it is not engraved.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2Fsideplatecloseup.jpg&hash=7cb2c8eabb66da0dcc4454e0299d1ffea1192d59)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2Fnosecapcloseup.jpg&hash=1932e50fe0bbc8c8241e3f05fd6096d5f3f2b904)
Nosecap with soldered-on end coming loose and two rivits (one on each quarter flat) to attach cap to stock
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2Fentrypipecarving.jpg&hash=fc324c7e2761907142f8a203c26661a81306ffe1)
carving at entry pipe is worn but shows some interesting details
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2FCeekSideCarving.jpg&hash=da579685d66a13cbef7a769bed6823270af63f2b)
note stamped in details in background
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That looks similar to a gun I handled at the KRA show last year. The owner attributed that gun to Berlin as well as I recall and most there seemed to agree. This rifle is by no means Identical and I don't have pics of the other one but if my memory serves me, this is very similar.
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What are your guys' thoughts on the possibility of this rifle being a William Antes? I could be wrong - Early PA guns are a bit out of my territory.
The tang is not unlike the daisy-box Antes shown in RCA - that one has very slight side notches but it's form overall is more pointed than you usually see on PA guns. The architecture of the buttstock and construction of the cheekpiece, and the patchbox form in particular, are all very very similar to the Antes gun in Shumway. The funky carving behind the tang looks like Lehigh (or would the correct term be Northampton - i.e. the Peter Niehard rifle) to me. Perhaps we are just seeing Moravian elements that sprung from a common teacher, but by Antes and Niehard's genearation were already being used in a number of different "schools" around the region.
Guy
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Guy, good thoughts. I could see Antes influence as easily as Berlin, but think by this period Antes might have quit using the stepped wrist and moved on to the curved underside profile. But we have so few existing specimens and so are forced to make judgments based on a weak foundation. Great gun, fun to speculate on it.
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Flintriflesmith,
Do you have a picture of the toeplate? It looks damaged, but there still might be something useful there (even screw holes). I am assuming that the PB release button is/was on the toeplate as well. Is there any clue to its shape (i.e. the release button)?
Also, are there 3 or 4 ramrod pipes? The ones I see look short, so I'm thinking maybe 4.
Guy,
The tang on that Antes rifle is as close as you can get to a southern pointed tang without having one!
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The step on this one is so slight. It gets visually accentuated a bit by the termination of the toe molding right there. This is something you see on a lot of the "Step Toe" guns made in Vriginia - the actual step is very slight and a lot of contemporary builders tend to overdo them when building these sorts of rifles.
The North Carolina attributed guns I was referring to with similar patchbox forms include No. 29 in Bill Ivey's book, which is also No. 133 in Shumway.
Guy
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Has anyone ever seen a Southern rifle with that kind of carving at the tang that is found on Northampton guns and Berlin pieces? Could happen but it would be news, I think.
Random thought; I wonder if the patchbox could be second work? We'd all be thinking differently about it if the patchbox gave us some clues.
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I thought about asking about the possibility that it might have had a wood box at one time, but it all looks so clean and non-modified that it seems very unlikely. It may have never had a box, and this could have been added cleanly (spectacular job if so), but then, I really don;t see the box as a 'problem.' The piece is odd, but then there are a lot of odd pieces out there and these guys did not always adhere to our modern categorization. Let's put it this way: if we pretend the box is not there, does it change anything? I still see a NH County connection somehow - not necessarily made there, but some degree of influence.
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It could be secondary work, but my hunch is still leaning toward it being an original box and the gun possibly by Antes - the box is very much in keeping with the brass boxed Antes gun shown in RCA 1. The tang carving is very Northampton looking. I have not seen that tang carving anywhere else.
The carving behind the cheekpiece looks like a descendant of the popular Moravian form you see again and again, including RCA 42. In feel, this example is unusual in that it shares a similar vibe to some later Piedmont NC guns where the carving is all above the surface - not much incised or gouged highlights, but this may not be anything significant with regard to where it was made. As other pointed out, perhaps this just reflects the customer's wishes or the gunsmith's ability, time constraints, or preference at the time this piece was made.
The patchbox and sideplate forms spread far and wide - note this slightly later Virginia rifle by Martin Sheets
http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/martin_sheets.html
Overall this piece looks like a real road map of Moravian gunmaking with regard to its blending of features that we find on longrifles from a number of other widespread gumaking regions. I really like it, wherever it was made.
The lockplate on this rifle looks pretty early to me - I would guess this piece to be late 1770s or earlier - what is others' opinion?
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Looks 1780's-90's to me based on buttplate, guard, and general styling. Would be good to have some buttplate measurements. I'm guessing the buttplate is about 1 and 7/8" wide.
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Flintriflesmith,
Do you have a picture of the toeplate? It looks damaged, but there still might be something useful there (even screw holes). I am assuming that the PB release button is/was on the toeplate as well. Is there any clue to its shape (i.e. the release button)?
Guy,
The pictures I have posted are the only ones I was sent. If you look at the very first picture (of the patchbox) you can see that the toeplate was nailed on and is now broken in half. The box relaese is in the heel of the butt piece but there is no picture of it.
Gary
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Are there initials on the back of that buttplate? I see a WH or HM, depending on which way you look at it - like they were scratched in a long time ago. Could just be coincidence, staining or scratches that look like initials.
Eric,
GOOD EYE! The scratched on initials on the face of the buttplate do appear to be WH and there are some members of the family with those initials. Unfortunately no specific dates are attached to those persons or the scratching.
Gary
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Guy, good thoughts. I could see Antes influence as easily as Berlin, but think by this period Antes might have quit using the stepped wrist and moved on to the curved underside profile. ...
This rifle has both the slight steptoe and the curved lower butt profile.
I posted it here because I'm seriously out of touch with recent discoveries related to early PA rifles but Antes influence was one of the first things that came to mind.
Gary
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I'm not well educated enough to give an opinion on the "where and who", so I will throw out a question. I don't think anyone has mentioned the little circles decorating the muzzle. Is this a feature that would help with the where and who?
-Ron
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That was pretty commonly used by a number of people over a broad area. Looks neat though, doesn't it?
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That was pretty commonly used by a number of people over a broad area. Looks neat though, doesn't it?
Yes, it does Eric. There is a thread over in the Gun Building section asking about muzzle decorations on originals, so this was pretty cool to see.
-Ron
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This rifle seems to have all of the proper bells and whistles, but the patchbox isn't engraved. The star on the cheek piece is engraved, but the box isn't. You would think that if a buyer would pay to have the star engraved, the box would have been done at the same time. I'm starting to wonder if (as was previously stated) the box was a later addition to this rifle, nothing recent, but not done when the rifle was made by the original gunsmith. The rifle, without a patchbox, then starts to look like an Isaac Berlin to me, the box doesn't fit the look of the rest of the gun.
FK
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Another way to look at it is that of the star being a later addition, and so all originally was unengraved! It's a real tough one. Frank I keep coming back to the box too, but if it's a later add on, it's one heck of a neat job. It IS much easier to view the rifle w/o the box, very definitely.
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I hate to bring you back to this but didn't Dickert start out in the Berks county area? I have seen some Dickerts with the slight curve of a roman nose. Just throwing it out there again. JIM
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Jim, According to Kindig, The Dickert family moved to Berks Co first, then to Lancaster in 1756. Jacob would have been 16 years old. Certainly old enough to be familiar with a rifle!
As for the patchbox, no patchbox, on this rifle, with all the bells and whistles it has, I can't imagine it being made without a patchbox. I think someone suggested that maybe it originally had a wood box, and the brass box is a later addition. If so, you'd think there would be signs of the wood box cover dovetails in the butt plate, and there's not, or at least doesn't look so in the picture.
I think this patchbox was pretty common/popular, and was used far and wide. One of my rifles has the same patchbox finale, although reversed top to bottom. It also has a completely different hinge and the gun has no other similarities.
Thanks for posting the pictures of this fine looking rifle Gary!
The cheek side carving reminds me of Andrew Figthorn,,,, but other things say he's not the maker.
John
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Just learned this weekend that there is a bit of wriggle work engraving on the remaining half of the toe plate. Still waiting for a picture of it but it is apparently a simple border around the plate and a series of 4 or 5 diamond shapes down the centerline. The plate seems to have been originally attached by four iron nails and 1 screw, in the center. Hope that method of attachment rings a bell with someone.
As for the rifle having been made with no box---I really doubt it. The wriggle work engraved toe plate speaks to a smith who wasn't doing a lot of scroll engraving. Maybe he was up in years and his eyes were failing as we know they do.
Likewise I don't believe any eighteenth-century customer was likely to be directing the smith to leave off the engraving in order to save that TINY bit of extra labor/cost when purchasing a new rifle. In a hand made rifle (even with an imported lock and purchased barrel) the time/cost of a bit of scroll engraving is virtually nothing! A rifle was a major purchase and a moderate amount of engraving would not add materially to the total cost.
Gary
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FlintRifleSmith,
Thanks for getting additional picture of toeplate -- what's left of the hole fore the screw in the center was looking like the hole for the patchbox button to me, since I couldn't see any sign of it on the heel of BP or the BP itself. Is it possible to get a picture of the PB release also, just for thoroughness? Just in terms of the patchbox's originality, it could be somewhat meaningful. I like the patchbox, can't see anything wrong with it -- and it seems to appear all over the place. Maybe the customer was in a hurry, and the other parts just had standard engraving already.
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Here's what remains of the toe plate.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2FToePlate.jpg&hash=7abf25e0cd2ff0b38f0b033d4ea39e09ff9ff03d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc271%2FFlintriflesmith%2FPA%2520Rifle%2520June%25202011%2FToePlatecropped.jpg&hash=68c162c82eb96cb8bc8aead5da03fa97d7fbf858)
I think it is interesting that the wrigglework, when examined closely, doesn't come close to forming a latic work patten. In other words the diamond design isn't crossing back and forth over it itself in a symetrical pattern as our modern eyes might expect.
Gary
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Gary I appreciate you showing this rifle. The last shot of the toe plate shows an interesting pattern in that it is different from the norm and it appears that the engraving was done off the rifle which I feel indicates it as first work. I like it.
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I don't believe that the lock is original to this piece and presents as a 'distraction,' if you will, I submit that the original lock had a small 'tit' or 'tail' that would more properly fit the lock recess.
There are so many repeating elements on this piece, lock panels, portions of raised and incised carving behind the cheek piece or entry pipe, that can be identified on this piece and attributed to known makers. I was going to throw out Jacob Ferree (or one of the Ferre family) as a possible influence (??)... but that stepped toe?
The incised carving incorporated in the 'C' scroll (to the immediate rear of the cheek piece,) which rolls-out and away from the scroll and returns to it, creating, but not making, two (2) opposing complete circles at ~9 & 3 o'clock, is so very unusual, in my mind's-eye.
An unknown apprentice influenced by more than one Master and this piece built as his Journeyman's piece?? Representative elements, but no adherence to a particular/recognized 'school.'
There is something in this family's early history that bears some investigation and it just might provide a real clue: possibly even an advance in our knowledge of interactions between the various gunsmiths in PA.
Actually, I think I'm right back where I started. What does that mean...??:-\
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Why do you think the lock isn;t original? Obviously been reconverted badly, but the plate and the integration of the plate into the stock and the lock panels/molding looks original to me. Obviouly yanking it out might shed more light on it, but I don;t have a problem wit it. imho.
Hey Gary any chance for a slightly less myopic photo = something like a wider profile of the gun from the forestock back to butt, might help to offr a clearer conceptualization fo the big picture.
I keep coming back to look at this. Rea;lly cool rifle.
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Eric, No debate, on my part, about a poorly done reconversion of the lock and while the front and bottom portions of the lock look like a good fit, the gap along the rear/tail of the lock brought about my comment. Perhaps (re)stating the current lock appears, to me, to be a period replacement (of the 'original-original') would more accurately reflect my interpretation.
No doubt, it's a cool rifle.
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The cracks through the wrist may well be shifting the back of the lock inlet away from the lockplate, making it look like a bad fit.
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I noticed the 7 knuckle hinge on the patchbox. That's unusual and could rule out certain builders if it was first work and made by the gunstocker.
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Might be worthy of a restoration project by a qualified gunsmith
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I noticed the 7 knuckle hinge on the patchbox. That's unusual and could rule out certain builders if it was first work and made by the gunstocker.
The daisy boxed Antes rifle that Guy pointed out has only 5, but they are pretty fine -- closer to this one than many.
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Hey Gary any chance for a slightly less myopic photo = something like a wider profile of the gun from the forestock back to butt, might help to offr a clearer conceptualization fo the big picture.
I keep coming back to look at this. Rea;lly cool rifle.
Eric,
Unfortunately these are the only pictures I recieved. I have not had a change to see the rifle in person or take any pictures of it. I hope that will change soon but it is not located near here.
Gary
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It has been suggested that this rifle may have been made by Issac Berlin.
I am no way an expert on Issac Berlin but for what it is worth, last weekend at the KRA show there was displayed a rifle very similar in architecture with similar carving behind the barrel tang, carving similar in form rear of the cheek piece and the beavertail tails on the lock moulding had those little lopes at the end. The rifle had an engraved patchbox with a flower finial but not the typical Lancaster Daisy. As far as I could see the rifle was unsigned. The rifle was in the president's display witch featured rifles from western PA. Handling of the rifles was prohibited, and viewing a rifle on a rack has its limitations. I do not know who owns the rifle. The description said "Issac Berlin", and I would assume it was supposedly made by him after he left York county post American Revolution. I think he was awarded a land grant in western PA as a reward for his service in the Continental Army and may have produced some rifles while he was there.
Please, any one, correct me if I have misrepresented any facts regarding Berlins service or his movement to Western PA. I Have not researched this, only stating remembrances of past reading, witch in my case may not always be totally reliable.
The rifle will be photographed and a CD will be made available by the Kentucky Rifle Foundation.
BTW great show.
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I was not at the show this year but I'm sure the rifle you speak of is the rifle I handled last year and mentioned in an earlier post. Again, it was not Identical to this but I thought of it as soon as I saw these pictures. The gun was attributed but the consensus was Berlin and it showed influence from some of the places he had been known to work. It was a real 'School' buster.
Either way I am glad to hear that quality photos will be taken of that rifle, I thought it one of the most interesting guns in the room aside from the great Lehigh display of last year.
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RIM,
I agree that the rifle on the display rack at the KRA looked very much like the same hand (or at least same shop) as this rifle we are discussing. I wish someone there could have explained why it is believed to be by Berlin. It's pretty different from the three signed Berlins I know about.
In addition to the carved details you mentioned the star engraving was almost identical. The box was very different and I have not had time since returning from the show last night to see what it might be related to. It was distinctive and well engraved.
Like you I was frustrated that the rules around the "President's Table" prevented the closer examination normally allowed at the KRA. I also talked to Mr. Bishop and he said the CD production may be delayed until two years can be put on 1 CD.
Gary
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Definitely Christians Spring made by Valentine Beck ! ;D
Sorry I just couldn't restrain myself.
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What an interesting rifle. I'm am barely a novice at this sort of thing but noticed a few interesting carving details. Behind and in front of the cheek. And the trikker guard. Beckish? How about the little sun or star behind the cheek? JP put this "star" on the tang on some of his rifles,did he not? The trigger guard is really close also. The PB is kinda mysterious! Dickert? Maybe these guys traded parts in tough times,who knows? Sorry if my observations are amateur.
(using a lot of meds these days. please delete if inappropriate)