AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: bob in the woods on September 29, 2011, 05:17:37 PM
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Has anyone used a beeswax finish on a cherry stock ? If so, what is your experience?
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Has anyone used a beeswax finish on a cherry stock ? If so, what is your experience?
Good question. I hope there's some good responses. I have a cherry stock to build myself.
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I can't speak to it on a stock, but I've used it on a couple of pieces of small furniture/turned boxes/etc. It is very nice, particularly once the cherry darkens due to UV.
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I'm getting more and more of an impression that cherry and also walnut work totally different than the more common maple wood does.
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What specifically is a beeswax finish? Pure beeswax heated to soften it and then rubbed into the surface? Or is it mixed with something else before application?
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I Used a mixture of bees wax and carnuba thinned with turpentine on a cherry stocked smoothbore. I'm very pleased with the finish, it does not have the "waxy" feel that can be associated with a bees wax finish.
I applied the warm wax to a warm stock in several light coats with vigorous buffing in between.
I Plan to use this finish on the next project.
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I have used beeswax on maple before and like it. I mix it with some walnut oil,and apply it hot. ie melted.
It will soak right into the wood, especially when more heat is applied. I haven't tried it on a cherry stock as yet, however am eager to try it. I did use it on walnut once and did so before carving, since the wood was tending to chip. The wax treatment firmed it right up, easing the carving, and was easy to add more when done.
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Bob and rsh, I tend to be "thick headed". Could you please spell out your formula and any other pertent info on your beeswax finishes? I would realy appreciate it. ;D
Dave
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Usually I just melt some beeswax, then apply to stock with fibre applicator. Then use heat gun or red hot iron to heat the stock. The wax actually will draw into the wood. Then buff with scrap wool.
Alternate is to mix 1/3 to 1/2 walnut oil in the melted wax. This paste, when cool can be rubbed into the stock and buffed. I use this after the straight wax treatment.
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How does the beeswax behave on hot summer days or after a barrel is heated from a string of firing? Does it liquefy and leech out of the wood?
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How does the beeswax behave on hot summer days or after a barrel is heated from a string of firing? Does it liquefy and leech out of the wood?
There are number of things that would make me avoid beeswax, other than there is virtually no evidence it was ever used for gunstocks and I think I know why. But its popular with people who apparently like to rewrite the history of gunstock finishes.
Dan
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Perhaps it would be prudent to point out that the average molecular size of beeswax is such that it is too large to penetrate most common hardwood fibers and the dense ring fibers of most softwoods. A reduction and carrier solvent must be used to reduce the molecular size and at that the level of surface penetration is minimal. Beeswax is a surface coating and while marginally water repellent, it ranks among the lowest for moisture resistance which is not much for any wax. The properties of beeswax also vary greatly depending upon the time of year and the available feedstocks making when and where the wax was produced prudent to it's potential for the application. Beeswax finishes are typically limited to interior furniture applications, commonly reduced with turps and Linseed oil to create a finish that was faster and easier to apply rather than for performance.
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I made a little tv stand out of scrap walnut and some walnut gun wall hooks and finished them quickly by melting beeswax in them. Now, for what they were, the finish is fine, looks good, and was quick and relatively easy to do. However, it water spots VERY badly (water goes right through the wax... despite popular opinion), so I wouldn't even think of using it on a gunstock. Sure, you just heat it up and remelt it and the spot goes away but you shouldn't have to do that anyway! Besides, how do you easily do that "in the field"?
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Sure, you just heat it up and remelt it and the spot goes away but you shouldn't have to do that anyway! Besides, how do you easily do that "in the field"?
Very good point, escpecially for us folks on the southern tropical areas where it rains all the time and the air is usually very moist the rest of the time.
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I've used the same method Bob in the woods uses on knife handles and gun stocks and have had great results. It doesnt get tacky in summer and I've never had any water spotting from rain or snow, but thats just me.
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Taylor beeswax finished his latest Hawken stock - nothing but beeswax, alternating applying, heating to get it to soak in, applying, etc, until it would not soak up any more oil. It is neither oily nor sticky, has a 'dry feel', hot or cold & as far as I know, doesn't water-spot. The stock is an exceptionally close grained, hard,hard, hard, heavy piece of maple. Maybe the wood makes a BIG difference with this 'type' of finish.
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I'm not ssure I understand re the comment concerning particle size and penetration into the wood.
I can say that when heat is applied, I can see that the wax is actually drawn right into the wood [ maple]
Penetration is up to 1/4 inch, and on the forestock, I can actually see it soak through into the barrel channel. Not really a surface finish,it is in the wood,and after a buffing with wool scraps, it has a nice dull sheen. Perhaps because I include the oil in the final coats, is why I don't get water spotting.I'm not sure.
This is not an attempt to re write historical gun finishing. I just tried it because my moose hunting usually includes my gun sitting in a canoe while it is raining/sleeting etc, and wet is the normal state !!
I asked about the cherry,because I don't want to effect the natural darkening ,colour changing that takes place with that wood.
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The beeswax definitely should not affect the color change in cherry; it will still darken in response to UV.
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unless there's a chemical change affected by adding oils/solvents, i see no way a "molecular size" would be affected. iow molecules of substances don't change in size until they become other substances--iirc.
is this another case of some saying it can't/shouldn't be done whilst others are quite merrily doing it with good results?
appears to me that it's _how_ you do it, regardless of the "science" saying it can't be done. eggsperts and experienced folk disagreeing on something so simple, is confusing to a novice.
guess i'll have to try it myself.
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Ask " Flintriflesmith ". I see that on his website, he has a rifle or two that he finished in beeswax some years ago. I would be interested in how the finish has performed .
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When I was new to gun building I used Beeswax extensively. I have also spent time in the spring and summer months watching the beeswax leech out of my metal and stock wood as the temps change
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Beeswax has two basic parts, crystallized and un-crystallized. Of the crystallized portion, an amount of 15-25% that varies with when and where the wax was made and on what bees were feeding, are the largest “pieces” and what provides most of the water repellent properties (perhaps molecules isn’t the proper terminology so I’ll call them crystals) These “crystals” are too large in their natural form to penetrate most wood fibers, an amount will penetrate pores and larger grain voids but not the wood fibers. When hot beeswax is applied to wood, it is the un-crystallized components that “wet” the wood but they provide only slight water repellency and almost no resistance to moisture passage. In order to achieve the maximum water repellence, the larger crystals must be in a layer of sufficient thickness and since they cannot penetrate the wood fibers, they must lay on top and therefore be a topical coating just like a varnish or paint but lacking the durability. If one reduces the crystal size by reducing the wax with a solvent like Xylene, Toluene or Turpentine, the smaller crystal size allows for somewhat of an increase in the amount of crystals that can penetrate the pores and other surface voids as well as allowing for a thinner film build – much the same results as is obtained when reducing Brazilian Palm wax (Carnauba) or Candelilla wax but all waxes require a minimum surface film thickness in order to achieve maximum water repellence.
The downside of any wax-base finish or finish with a wax content is the lack of a sufficient moisture barrier for exterior and other applications prone to cyclic moisture levels. The highest level of moisture resistance is found in microcrystalline paraffin wax provided the oil content is sufficient enough to plug the holes in the crystal structure but not so much as to disrupt the integrity of the surface film layer. However, when it comes to resistance to the passage of moisture, waxes provide about as much resistance as a window screen, microcrystalline paraffin ranks highest followed by Candellila, Carnauba then Beeswax. Thus is why the higher the wax content of Shellac, the lower its initial moisture resistance and the more rapidly the surface film integrity degrades, such is also why blending a wax with a curing oil is detrimental to the level of protection that can be achieved by the oil alone. One must also account for the fact that even with sufficient surface film thickness, Beeswax starts to become brittle at 65°F and the film begins to internally separate around 38°F which further reduces both its water and moisture resistance properties. On the other end, depending on the exact composition of the Beeswax, it can begin to get tacky/gummy at 70°F and weep at 85°F. Beeswax has a lot of uses but it’s far from optimal for a gunstock or other exterior wood finish applications.
Mark
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Thanks for the details.
but (one of those in every crowd), how does Sno-Seal (mostly beeswax no?) work on my boots? porosity? film thickness? other substance? apple/orange?
also (while we're totally adrift) anyone know if toilet flange seals are beeswax or something remarkably similar to beeswax?
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Ask " Flintriflesmith ". I see that on his website, he has a rifle or two that he finished in beeswax some years ago. I would be interested in how the finish has performed .
Melting the appropriate colored crayons into heated boiled linseed oil will make a pretty darned durable finish and can even eliminate the need for stains. It has to be right, I mean it was written about in Muzzle Blasts afterall.
Gunstocks are not side boards or china cabinets. They have different finish needs and uses.
Lots of people who should have known better have rewritten history or attempted too, for the purposes of using some finish or stain that allowed them to put a fast and cheap finish on a ML stock. OR because they were ignorant of historic finishes and failed to do research into the making and use of HC stains and finishes which in many cases are "high performance" compared to some or likely most/all of the modern stuff sold in hardware and paint stores. This skullduggery has resulted in the wide spread use of synthetics that have a very short (compared to natural oil finishes) life span. But since someone with a big name in MLs used the $#@* on some guns (which now have checked finishes for the most part I have been told) its acceptable even though in a year or two of actual use the stock is only slightly more water resistant than bare wood. But its fast and easy and new and improved. The stains seem to require 2-3 times the work of ferric nitrate and are less color stable. But hey its new and improved and will give colors that FN stain will not (meaning the gun is probably the wrong color) so they have to be better. Right? Like the Crayon finish from Muzzle Blasts, endless color combinations. Has to be good... Right?
Dan
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Thanks for the details.
but (one of those in every crowd), how does Sno-Seal (mostly beeswax no?) work on my boots? porosity? film thickness? other substance? apple/orange?
also (while we're totally adrift) anyone know if toilet flange seals are beeswax or something remarkable similar to beeswax?
Wade,
First thing, unless you're wearing boots made from wood, it's apples to organges because leather and cloth are very porous ... but Sno-Seal is identified as "wax family" which is quite a broad generalized category that encompasses most anything that can be identified as having - the consistency of wax - or properties similar to wax - or chemical structure similar to wax - or use/function similar to wax ... IOW, "wax family" doesn't tell you much of anything about the product. The formula is "proprietary" which means it contains more than one ingredient. Under storing and handling precautions, it states to "Store in a covered area. Keep from cold. Do not contaminate animal feed or water with this product." First question I feel compelled to ask is why would one make a product with the name "Sno-Seal" if it must not be allowed to get cold, it's been a while since I saw snow other than on TV but I remember it being cold, painfully cold in my case. Sorry for the application of common sense but to me that's like building a boat then writing an instruction that states, "Keep from water." ::) Basic ingredients are listed as "Wax <65% and Mineral Spirits <35% ... thus, the unspecified "wax" is reduced with solvent "Mineral Spirits" - seems like I said something about the need to reduce the size of the wax crystals with solvent, didn't I? Just purely speculation on my part but based on the information provided and not provided, I'm more inclined to believe the unspecified "wax" is paraffin as opposed to bees.
Toilet flange seals used to be beeswax but for about the last half-century, or longer, they're primarily a mixture of petroleum waxes, fillers, synthetics and binding agents. Again too, the application is completely different because we're talking an inch or better of thickness across the flange and resistance to liquid water, not moisture.
Mark
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Mark
Yes, I was only interested in the flange gasket as a cheap and readily available source of wax. I'll have to look further eh. Frugality would have been common bitd I'm sure, but mine is circumstance-driven in modern times.
Thanks for the repies, I'm ignorant of many things, but am highly trainable. eg. I'm beginning to understand Dan's angst. ;D
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A friend was reading on the '"Tried and True" site that their oil and beeswax furniture finish is not suitable for exterior use.
The Oil Varnish is.
Dan