AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Dennis Glazener on October 03, 2011, 07:27:59 PM
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Another rifle sent in by ALR member Jim McKenzie for your review and comments.
Here is what Jim had to say about this rifle:
This gun is 60 inches overall with a 44 1/2 inch barrel. The stock is maple . It was broken through the wrist and repaired. The barrel has been cut back. The nose cap is made of pewter. The rear ram rod pipe is different than you normally see.
Nice rifle with some interesting features.
Dennis
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/tglazener/jim%20mckenzie%20alr%20photos/IMG_03252.jpg)
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/tglazener/jim%20mckenzie%20alr%20photos/IMG_03222.jpg)
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/tglazener/jim%20mckenzie%20alr%20photos/IMG_0317.jpg)
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/tglazener/jim%20mckenzie%20alr%20photos/IMG_0100.jpg)
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/tglazener/jim%20mckenzie%20alr%20photos/IMG_0102.jpg)
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/tglazener/jim%20mckenzie%20alr%20photos/IMG_0093s.jpg)
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Lovely gun !
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Its got a 44 1/2" barrel as is now? Judging by the placement of the last thimble there at the nose there is alot of barrel missing...that must have been one loooong rifle.
tca
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Interesting example of this style rifle. Pleasing wood and color for me. I would like to see the toe plate and tang on this rifle. As Dennis points out, very interesting features. Thanks, Jim
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I have a rifle that is almost an exact duplicte of this rifle and obviously made by the same preson. 43 inch .40 cal barrel, 58 inch overall length. Also with a repaired wrist- beautiful workmanship- check out the triggers! I got this rifle from Steve Davis who said it was the rifle that inspired him most. It was originally purchased from a family in the mid 1970s in east Tennessee, near Maryville.
http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/sequatchie/Maryville%20Tn%20Rifle/
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There are quite a few similarity's. If not the same maker I bet they new each other. Both rifles made by a fine craftsman.
I will send you a P.M. JIM
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The patchbox lid running out into the buttplate is interesting. Can you get a closeup of that Dennis? I'd like to see the release mechanism.
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What neat rifle! Very different from an upper East Tennessee rifle - if it is from the Maryville area, I guess that could make sense. It also bears very strong similarities to the Robert Hughes (Haywood Co. North Carolina) or associate attributed longrifle in Bill Ivey's' book shown below. Note the architecture, triggerguard, buttplate and sideplate.
http://www.northcarolinalongrifles.com/images/appalachianlg.jpg
So perhaps a Smoky Mountain region rifle, just not sure which side of the border.
Really looks to be in excellent condition - inlclucing the original flint lock plate. Shot a heck of a lot after it was converted, but obviously taken care of.
Great little rifle - thanks for posting
Guy
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G-Man I think your on to something. Thanks for the post. Sequatchie's rifle ,mine and the on in Bill Ivey's book look like they could be from the same hand. JIM
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Good eye, Guy. As usual I find myself in agreement with your assessment. The distinctive sideplate, trigger guard and architecture are surely related to the rifle associated with Robert Hughes of Haywood County, NC (rifle 197 in Bill Ivey's book). I don't recall seeing that sideplate on a TN rifle, but stand ready to be corrected. Bill Ivey writes that he cannot positively attribute that rifle to Hughes, but Bill's conjecture is more reliable than just about anyone else's opinion on NC rifles. So I would agree with Guy that this is "Appalachian" school, made either side of the NC/TN border. A very pleasing rifle. Thanks for posting.
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The architecture on these 3 guns is very striking - very short compact wrist sections between the comb and the lock panels. Whoever made them, these are really nice examples that capture that "something" that a lot of us love about these mountain rifles and that today's builders strive build into their work.
Guy
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Jim sent me these photos to post. Hope they help.
Dennis
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr296%2Ftglazener%2Fjim%2520mckenzie%2520alr%2520photos%2FIMG_0006.jpg&hash=15ac76d5f24b07963b151332823b371bb545f242)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr296%2Ftglazener%2Fjim%2520mckenzie%2520alr%2520photos%2FIMG_0004.jpg&hash=0551e71964ab5a6c614199d6eec68e8529185e4d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr296%2Ftglazener%2Fjim%2520mckenzie%2520alr%2520photos%2FIMG_0003.jpg&hash=5d83ece9abc8561182905afe5e5fcd01b2f135ad)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr296%2Ftglazener%2Fjim%2520mckenzie%2520alr%2520photos%2FIMG_0002.jpg&hash=5373048ed1e8f2cf29e2962a21683654b3b5f9fe)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr296%2Ftglazener%2Fjim%2520mckenzie%2520alr%2520photos%2FIMG_0001.jpg&hash=00c7177c35e1630cfe25cb14eb48e486efcb2934)
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[Very different from an upper East Tennessee rifle - if it is from the Maryville area, I guess that could make sense. It also bears very strong similarities to the Robert Hughes (Haywood Co. North Carolina) or associate attributed longrifle in Bill Ivey's' book shown below. Note the architecture, triggerguard, buttplate and sideplate.]
I admit to not having seen many Robert Hughes rifles but I don't remember the front triggers on his rifles having the TN "base" like this rifle and also the one in Ivey's book. Plus the overall lines look better than on the Hughes rifles that I have see. I can't help but wonder if both the rifles are by someone other than Hughes.
Dennis
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Dennis,
These rifles (all of them) certainly deserve more attention and study, then they are getting.
How was the Robert Hughe's attribution/association made on the rifle presented from the Ivey collection? Obviously, Mr. Ivey is a respected authority, but curious as to the premise/foundation that formed the basis of that conclusion, at that time.
I admit to not having seen many Robert Hughes rifles but I don't remember the front triggers on his rifles having the TN "base" like this rifle and also the one in Ivey's book. Plus the overall lines look better than on the Hughes rifles that I have see. I can't help but wonder if both the rifles are by someone other than Hughes.
Dennis
I take it Dennis, from your observation/statement, that the current Robert Hughe's attribution to the Ivey longrifle, may very well be subject to serious contest.
Are there any other detailed photographs available (anywhere) on the Hughe's attributed/associated longrifle, i.e. the tang, toe plate, front and rear sights, trigger guard, ramrod pipes and the iron hardware 'fixture,' under the cheek piece? It's difficult to do any real comparisons, without, at least, those.
And lastly, for the time being, is the end of stock missing at the muzzle? Appears so, but hard to detect.
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Not claiming it's a Hughes or not - just that whoever made the gun shown here seems to be the same maker as the gun in the Ivey book I am not familiar enough with Hughes' work - other than that of the 4 pieces I have seen attributed to him in the Bivins and Ivey books, each is very different. However, the three pieces we are discussing here seem to make a pretty solid stylistic group, and appear to be the same hand. If they are all 3 by the same maker they make a wonderful study of the variations and similarities you might see from one shop.
I am comfortable that this is not an upper East Tennessee rifle - i.e. in the sense of that region up closer to near where TN, VA and NC meet - Washington, Unicoi, Sullivan, etc. - where the Beans and Beals worked. So an origin in the Maryville area or surrounding area - near present day Great Smoky Mountain NP - in either Tennessee or North Carolina, makes sense. The hardware is almost taking on sort of Soddy Daisey feel in its construction, but is different in outline.
Guy
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I certainly am no expert on Robert Hughes work. The only photos that I know of are the ones in Bivins and Ivey's books. I have seen one rifle in person and it looked much like the one in Bivins book.
Dennis
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Thank You everyone for your comments and thanks to Dennis for posting the pictures for me. When I first got the rifle I talked with Jerry Noble about it . His feeling was that it was made around Washington- Unicoi area. He did not hazarded a guess on possible maker. My knowledge of southern made guns is very limited. The Hughes rifles (not counting the one attribution ) look quite a bit different than the three we are comparing. I wonder what Mr. Bivins made his attribution on? I know he is one of the best when it comes to North Carolina guns. I'm not disagreeing with him , just wondering. Also someone asked about the patch box release.There is none it works by a spring. JIM
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Is it the natural movement west from North Carolina to Tennessee? In William Ivey’s excellent book I believe you can see a developing Tennessee within the early North Carolina rifles more specifically the shape of the butt stock. Specifically the rifles from the Catawba Valley and Bear Creek schools, No? Is there a sharp dividing line between the Kentucky and Tennessee borders showing the Northern (Pennsylvania/Virginia) and Southern (North Carolina) influences as those influences move westward?
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There was a lot of influence coming in from Virginia as well, with a strong cultural influence that came in via (and shared with) SW Virginia. Actually, there were many routes into the region, ancient native paths followed first by traders then settlers. So I don't think a clean east to west progression can be assumed - the mountains were sort of an impediment to that. However, I do think that the influence of early western piedmont North Carolina gunmaking on the later iron mounted pieces made in the mountains is something that has just begun to be really looked at. Conversely, the possible influence of the mountain rifles on adjacent areas - like the extrem western piedmont/foothill region of NC or the Cumberland Plateau of Tennessee - is something that should not be discounted either.
With regard to the later "mountain" rifles, I believe that those made in western North Carolina were evolving more or less contemporaneously with the ones made over the hill in East Tennessee - that is, I don't think the North Carolina mountain rifle styles preceded the east Tennesse styles, just each followed their own evolution. It is highly likely that settlers in the high mountain areas of the Smokies, and native Cherokees, traveled back and forth and spread style elements around the region, on both sides of the estate line. So we see some common shared features - patchbox styles, etc.
The rifle shown in the photos is such a neat example - wherever it was made- some relatively definitive features that make it instantly recognizable as to the general region, but some unique quirks that make it real interesting.
Of course, I could be wrong on all fronts....there is so much we don't know about these guns.
Guy
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Thanks Guy for that information, extremely interesting. :)
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Are there any other detailed photographs available (anywhere) on the Hughe's attributed/associated longrifle, i.e. the tang, toe plate, front and rear sights, trigger guard, ramrod pipes and the iron hardware 'fixture,' under the cheek piece?
Ref: http://www.northcarolinalongrifles.com/images/appalachianlg.jpg
In the hopes of soliciting further responses and/or scanned digital photographs, I'll rephrase my original question:
For those of you that have purchased Mr. Ivey's book, are more photographs present and/or presented, in the book, of the Robert Hughe's "attributed/associated" longrifle and 'link,' referenced in G-Man's post of 10, October?
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Is it the natural movement west from North Carolina to Tennessee?
Yes it was in 1771 after the battle of Alamance where Colonial Gov Tryon defeated and threatened members of the Regulator movement, many of the former Regulator members fled (Tryon threatened them with treason against the Crown) to what became the state of TN. Also many NC men that fought during the Rev War were given land claims in TN for their service during the war LAND-RELATED RECORDS
In order to fulfill a recruiting promise made by the state to soldiers enlisting in the regular army (Continental Line) during the Revolutionary War, North Carolina set aside a large tract of land in what subsequently became Davidson and Sumner counties, in Tennessee [admitted as the 16th state June 1, 1796]. After the war, and until as late as 1841, North Carolina issued more than 6,500 warrants for grants of bounty lands; until 1797 the grants were made by North Carolina, but after 1800 the grants were made by Tennessee. The North Carolina State Archives does not have any bounty land grant records for dates beyond 1797.
To my knowledge all military land grants from the state of NC was for land that later became TN.
Dennis
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For those of you that have purchased Mr. Ivey's book, are more photographs present and/or presented, in the book, of the Robert Hughe's "attributed/associated" longrifle and 'link,' referenced in G-Man's post of 10, October?
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Collector, I believe there are three or four other Robert Hughe's longrifles pictured in the book. onely one unsigned attributed rifle with this kind of arcitecture.
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Jim, I like the rifle. Very nice, good clean lines, & it don't look like it has been boogered with.
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jdm, Thanks for your response.
I'm going to have to call and order Mr. Ivey's book, but this particular Robert Hughe's attributed/associated longrifle has sparked an intense reaction in that portion of (the) my brain that scientists normally attribute to male responses to female sexuality.
THERE... I'VE SAID IT!!
No sense denying it... I love American longrifles, especially if they are well proportioned, slender and SEXY!! What's more, I prefer them if they are older than I am!! (I think my mother always suspected as much... :o ... when she found those muzzleloader magazines in my desk drawer, under my school work... ;D )
Man, do I ever feel better... ;)
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Old Sigmond Freud would have a field day with us "lovers of longrifles"! ;D :P :-X
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What was that bumper sticker I once saw, oh yea, "A man and his rifle its a beautiful thing"
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First , Let me apologise for bumping this old thread. It's been almost a year sense it ran. The first rifle shown belongs to me. I was hoping someone new to the forum might see this . If anyone has knowledge of a signed rifle by Robert Hughe's with this type of architecture . It would be interesting to see.
You know how it is, you always want to know more about these old pieces of history. For you guys that have seen this sorry for the repeat. JIM
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Jim,
I am not much of a Southern rifle guy, but I would be happy to have that baby in the collection. Beautiful piece, thanks for posting.
Buck
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Jim, Michael Briggs, who posts regularly on ALR, may have a suggestion. You may want to send an enquiry to him tru ALR. Also, Bill Ivey is a great gentleman who would gladly share his knowledge with you, although I don't think he follows ALR. Let me know if you need contact information for Bill.
Wayne
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Buck thanks for your comments.
Wayne , thank you for your suggestion. I will fallow up on it with Michael. JIM
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I studied Bill Iveys book last night, excellent book, to refresh myself on Robert Hughes. I agree with G-Man’s assessment of an Appalachian gunsmith that may be Robert Hughes or someone who apprenticed under him and moved closer to the Soddy Daisy area of Tennessee.
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I've seen two Robert Hughes rifles since this posting and I am thoroughly convinced neither this, nor my rifle were made by him! You should contact Wayne Bryson.
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Jim,
Thanks for posting this rifle again. I only joined the forum recently, and so I hadn't seen the photos earlier. Very helpful photos, by the way.
Can you tell us if the butt plate is held by screws or nails. From the photo, it looks like the one centered in the crecent is a nail, but I suppose it could be a worn screw. I can't quite tell. Also wondering about the two on the top.
Also, am I correct in assuming that the toe-end of the toe plate is riveted to the toe of the buttplate? Or is that last "nail" just a nail pinning the toe plate to the wood.
Thanks.
Whetrock
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Whetrock,
Thanks for your interest.
The butt plate is held on with nails. There are no screws that I can see any where on the butt plate. The toe plate is also nailed. This is a pleasing rifle that I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of. JIM
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Jim,
That is a great rifle, thanks for posting it.
Buck
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Why are you so convinced about Hughes or a product of Hughes?
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Why are you so convinced about Hughes or a product of Hughes?
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crawdad,
I'm not sure who you are addressing this comment to? I don't know if it is made by Hughes or not. The idea it my be came from a rifle pictured in Bill Ivey's book. He was attributing it to Robert Hughes. Mr Ivey is a lot more knowledgeable on rifles from this area than I. Until a signed one like this turn up, it's just speculation. How ever it's a starting point for more research.
JIM
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Jim, I was addressing this to SR and while I wouldn’t have mentioned Robert Hughes other than to point out that the three rifles pictured in Bill Ivey’s book attributed to Robert Hughes are all somewhat different and one of these examples having a high comb similar to a Tennessee. We could get a lot of insight into the Appalachian school and this rifle in particular if we could find out when these three rifles were built.
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I think there is also a bit of confusion regarding the original intent of my post - sorry if it threw thingds offtrack- I meant only that the great rifle shown in the photos looks to be by the same hand as the one shown in Bill Ivey's book, but in that book Bill does even not say he is 100 percent positive of the attriibution to Hughes.
Whoever this smith was, he had a wonderful sense of architecture and efficient, well made and beautifully designed mounts - really sort of the epitomy of all that we love about Appalachian iron mounted guns.
I would enjoy seeing the triggers out of the stock on this one if you ever take them out - the guard looks like it sits rearward just a bit farther than on many rifles you see - alhtough it could just be the photo angle - but it may have something to do with the internal structure of the triggers - perhaps something unique and that could be clue for where it was made.
Guy
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I know Guy and I drew the same conclusions as you did. Not attributing this rifle directly to a specific maker but noticed the similar sweeping lines of the two rifles that are starting appear in the Appalachian Mountains whether that is in North Carolina or Tennessee. I also noticed the similarities to and the beginnings of the distinctive lines associated with the Soddy Daisy area rifles.
Good stuff!!!
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Again, recommend you contact Wayne Bryson. He has some key information on this maker.
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G-Man With my skills if I took the triggers out , I would be a collector of triggers. If you would like pictures from a different angle I could send you some.
sequatchie Rifle, I don't know who Wayne Bryson is . Perhaps I would know him if I saw him. If you have information from him please share. I am surprised no one has mentioned the rear ramrob pipe. It is two pieces one riveted to the other. I thought it might be an identifying mark? Anyway thank you all for the interest. JIM
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Know how you feel Jim - on these old guns I tend to lean toward the "it's been in there safe and sound for 200 years so why tempt fate....." approach. I can't imagine the skill and confidence these guys like Louie Parker and others who restore these great old guns have when working on them.
I will have to take a look at the entry thimble arrangement again.
I know I keep yammering on and on about this gun but it really is one of my favorite Appalachian iron mounted guns I have ever seen. Thanks for sharing it with us Jim.
Guy
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OK, so I have a question. I notice the front trigger is disproportionately close to the front of the bow of the trigger guard. Some at least, of the Gillespie rifles have this same characteristic. Why??? its hard to get a big fat finger in there, let alone one with a glove on??
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Tim,
That's exactly the reason. You can't get anything but the tip of your finger in there. No wrapping a finger and jerking left of right. So they say.................
Ken
Ok, the another reason would be different makers for the trigger guard and the triggers. If you are subscribe to the belief that trigger guards, banana patchbox lids, and triggers were purchased from someone else (blacksmith or Conestago Wagon Co.) and assembled by a gun stocker much like a lot of folks do today (only without the benefit of large selections and life size picture catalogs) it would be pretty easy to have happen.
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Hi Ken - good to hear from you - I don't have photos of Sequatchie's rifle in front of me but if you note the one in the Ivey book that looks to be by the same hand, it also has the guard sitting back a bit farther than you usually see on most guns, i.e the front piece of the guard bow sits rearward of the cock, whereas on most rifles - even most guns from East Tennessee - it is usually sitting right below or just in front. So it looks to me like the triggers are actually sitting back a bit farther than you usually see, rather than just solely the guard placement, if that makes sense. I could be wrong though. So it was just a thought - could have something to do with his trigger internals - or maybe he just liked to crowd the guard back against the forward trigger - regardless, it works visually - great looking sleek look to all three of these guns.
Guy
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Tim,
That's exactly the reason. You can't get anything but the tip of your finger in there. No wrapping a finger and jerking left of right. So they say.................
Ken
Tim,
Ken is correct, the intent was for a person to use the side of the tip of the index finger to gently touch off the light trigger pull. This kept a person from jerking the shot, at least this was the intent ;D I prefer to retain the excuse "I pulled that one" ;)
Dennis