AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: James Wilson Everett on October 26, 2011, 03:11:25 PM
-
Eric,
Here is one that may qualify as "cool". It is entirely hand forged from wrought iron, except the springs are 1095 steel. Only 18th c tooling and techniques were used, except the screw holes where I used twist drills, (spade bits and a brace give the same hole, only take 20X longer). It is mounted on a Berlin style Jaeger with an original twist iron barrel. I have one other finished lock and two more in process about 1/2 way done.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/Jaeger/Jaeger3a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d1bb46e2-db79-476e-9acb-3ed6d7a46811/p/94e5f598-bcd0-487b-9d86-9a9904dbff5c)
Jim Everett
-
Eric-
Are you thinking of building a rifle using one of these locks? If so, let me know and I'll send you my lock. I won't ever use it and it's a shame to let it sit. It has never been used on a gun and hasn't been drilled for the lock nails.
Dan
-
Knowing Eric's work a little I think he's looking for something unique, not off the shelf.
-
Hi Rich-
I know what you mean. Though I'll bet that by the time Eric was done with this lock it would have a whole new look. Don't suppose you have a use for it?
Dan
-
Used one and liked it. I have about 8 assembled locks and 4 kits and 4 antiques to restore, so I'd better pass. If it was longer I'd take it for a specific militia-acceptable piece I want to make.
-
Keb Mo have any pictures of the Salvo lock? Love to see it
-
Eric,
Here is another forged wrought iron flintlock. The pan/bolster is silver soldered onto the plate. As can be seen the throw is long as was typical of earlier locks. It is about the size of a small Siler. Again it is entirely 18th c made without modern tools, screws, etc. All is wrought except the springs which are 1095.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/100_4757a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/d262bf96-7065-49a6-b93b-54d936b49747)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/100_4759a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/b6ec8bfb-0732-4f47-9159-c75448af4892)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/100_4763a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/860b9000-1177-4d4b-82e6-691c3868947c)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/100_4760a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/917f5929-14d1-4c1e-a770-591373132a9f)
-
How much, Jim?
-
Keb Mo have any pictures of the Salvo lock? Love to see it
This is the best picture I got.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.choppix.com%2Fkeb%2FSalvo-03.jpg&hash=612b87762dee1a26ec3fac4f68a6ab2e2ab0535c)
-
Clark Industries in Ontario has an interesting lock, assembled and tuned for $150. I've never seen one fire, but it looks like an unusual one. They have a website and a link on the House Brothers' site.
-
Eric,
Here is another forged wrought iron lock. It is mounted on a Lehigh valley rifle, all wrought iron mounted, forged wrought iron barrel. I did use twist drills for the lock plate holes on this one, but everything else is strictly 18th c.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/lehigh/Lehigh3a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/3d010044-3777-4af9-bea7-c789d6e08ecc/p/039bf76d-a0db-48cd-92cf-ed0a23cc527b)
-
Iam with Rich how much? nice locking locks.
-
Eric,
Here is another lock that some may think "cool", but it is not German. All hand forged wrought iron with the exception of the springs and the frizzen screw which are 1095. It is mounted on a 56" barrel Lancaster County smoothbore gun, roughly taken from Kindig #14. The barrel was hand made from steel, not wrought iron. the great advantage to this one is when it gives a click - darn rather than a bang you can insult it in English rather than low dutch.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/longlancaster/LongLanc3a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/f98f2006-9615-4645-99f2-6d4eb06ffb3e/p/dff129f7-ba73-4ec7-a707-ebdc26626e56)
-
Jim, love your stuff but it seems it's not for sale. So I split the topic and moved it here. Would be great if you did a tutorial sometime- these locks are terrific.
-
Awesome! Taking any orders? lol ;)
-
certainly wish I had a half of your ability and patience
I am curious; where do you find your wrought iron? Very little 1800s vintage scrap around here
cheers Doug
-
Doug there's literally a ton of it under the sign in Beaconhill Park! Might be a night time scavenge though.
-
Guys,
Wrought iron is still around, but not being made. Several things to look for:
1. wagon wheel rims and hubs
2. old barn hinges
3. blacksmith tongs
Look in old barns for any old iron metal bolts, rods, etc. Always bring a coarse file with you to file a patch on the metal. Look for the tell-tale black slag streaks on the clean metal. The unrefined wrought will have obvious slag streaks, more refined wrought iron will have much thinner streaks that are more difficult to see. Really great wrought iron requires an etching in muriatic acid to see the streaks or grain of the metal. A few times I was able to locate wagon wheels used to decorate houses or mailboxes. When the wood rotted away the homeowners were happy to have me haul the metal away.
Also you can buy the stuff at:
http://www.wisconsinwoodchuck.net/treasures.htm
Here are some photos of moderately refined wrought iron in a gunlock plate and a blank for a wood screw so you can see the slag streaks. The screw blank is from an oil well pump rod from near Oil City, Pa put into service 1860 - 1880. I think the gunlock plate was a barn hinge.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Process1.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/p/57992bbf-12ae-41dc-9514-0d64a9b8464a)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/Wrought%20Iron/WroughtIron3s_zpsb90dfa7d.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/ea382a70-53cb-4d77-892e-bfd2acf19061/p/886d0eeb-db9c-4270-9d40-2cf27ff080a5)
Jim Everett
-
Guys,
It seems that a many have been asking the price to buy a hand made gunlock. To tell the truth, I have never sold just the lock, only a completed gun. The unmounted example above I use as a show-n-tell example when I give demonstrations on 18th c gunmaking/lockmaking. I am currently working on two flintlocks about the size of a large Siler. However, I will be leaving the country for an "overseas" assignment soon and will not be returning until June 2012. Certainly I will not be doing gunsmith work over there. So these locks probably would not be available until Summer 2012. Their price range would probably be around $1000. Let me know if anyone wants a truly hand made rifle, fowler or pistol as I have a few of these.
Jim Everett
-
I think it would take me a month of Sundays to make a lock from scratch. Maybe I'd get better after the first dozen locks, but I don't think I'll ever live long enough to find out.
Handmade locks are priceless, in my opinion. Great work, Jim. Love seeing you work posted.
-
Guys,
Thanks so much for the encouraging compliments. I am just a little strange that I truly enjoy filing out little parts for the locks. The results certainly are not up to the quality that can be had from a modern manufactured lock, but it is the best this guy can do. Here are some photos of the working side of the locks. These are really hand made wrought iron in the 18th c style, although on most I have used twist drills for the screw holes.
This one is from a Lancaster Co. 56" , 0.508 cal barrel smoothbore.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/longlancaster/LongLanc3a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/f98f2006-9615-4645-99f2-6d4eb06ffb3e/p/dff129f7-ba73-4ec7-a707-ebdc26626e56)
This one is from a Lehigh Co. 38" , 0.503 cal rifle
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/lehigh/Lehigh3a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/3d010044-3777-4af9-bea7-c789d6e08ecc/p/039bf76d-a0db-48cd-92cf-ed0a23cc527b)
This one is from a Berlin stlye Jaeger with an original twist iron barrel , 0.511 cal. It is the only one I have ever made with that dratted little fly. Boy, is that pie shaped recess difficult!
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/Jaeger/Jaeger3a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d1bb46e2-db79-476e-9acb-3ed6d7a46811/p/94e5f598-bcd0-487b-9d86-9a9904dbff5c)
This one is from a lehigh Co. 48" ,0.457 cal smoothbore. It looks a lot like the D.D.Lewis gun from Last of the M.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/BrassPlatea_zps19b78113.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/cda867c6-9dbe-46a1-9c48-aa0335f43116)
This one is not moiunted on a gun, yet. I use it as a crowd show-n-tell when I demo lockmaking at crafts fairs.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/100_4757a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/d262bf96-7065-49a6-b93b-54d936b49747)
Jim Everett
-
Jim, I noted you seem to use an integral pan on these locks. Is that welded on or part of the original piece of iron you use for the lockplate?
-
Rich,
The bolster block on the lockplate interior is not welded on. The lockplate/bolster is cut from a thicker piece of wrought iron, a wagon wheel rim. The pan is forge welded on. I have also made them with detatchable pans - like the Siler lock. This method is actually more work to file the plate & pan to fit nicely.
Jim Everett
-
These locks look good to me and I base that statement on years of lock making. I use cast steel parts fo the externals and make my own internal parts,detailing them at the bench.
My current project is an upgraded Twigg flintlock based on the R.E.Davis external parts with a fancy and precisely fit internal mechanism. I am only making ten of them and nine people bought all of them at $300 a copy.
The fifth one will go out in tomorrow's mail to Ohio and hope to have the others done by early December.
In a device such as a gun lock,quality control is mandatory.Precise fitting and limber,fast forged springs are a must. I won't trust any cast mainspring for any reason. All of them are too stiff. I well remember the horror story that beset the early L&R locks because the foundries they dealt with had NO concept of quality control and caused major problems and bad feelings from their customers.
My line of locks are more or less similar to English styles and due to the market saturation of the Germanic types,I don;t make them. This Twigg lock is a big,elegant lock and it even surprised me as to how fast it is when the sear is released. Not as fast as my little Ketland but still fast enough.
The quality of frizzens is the heart of the spark generated ignition systems and I have used 52-100 for years and have locks in competitive use in Germany that have been used for 30+ years with only an occasional touch to a 5 inch (125mm) grinder to clean up the frizzen's face.
The 1095 used today is certainly inferior to the
52-100 which is what ball bearings are made from. Most of these locks were an exclusive for a gun maker in Western Germany,he owned all the plates,hammers and frizzens because he paid the bill from the foundry and I made the rest over a period of years as time allowed.
Bob Roller
-
Regarding the Twigg project Bob mentioned above, I own #4 of 10. It is a sweetheart!
Regards,
Pletch
-
Great post, Jim. Great work. Really diggin' your locks. Forgewelded on pans....you are very skilled, my friend. My hat's off to you.
-
The 1095 used today is certainly inferior to the
52-100 which is what ball bearings are made from. Bob Roller
Bob, did you try the ball bearing steel because it's also use in "rollers"? :D
Thanks for the info- I've suspected that there are steels that spark better than 1095 as old files seem to be sparkier when I make firesteels.
-
Rich, you beat me to it.
Mr. Everett, I am astounded in what you do. My hat is off to you.
-
No,I went to 52-100 on advice from the same metallurgist that said 12L14 isn't gun barrel material. It works as 30+years of service in European competitions proves. I don't know why a superior material isn't at least tested when superiority is demonstrated. "Best"has always stood towering over "Good enough"and it costs little to try it.
Bob Roller
-
Great having you here. Looking at specs it looks like 52-100 is bearing steel because of the chromium content, and the carbon content overlaps with 1095. Metallurgy is akin to wizardry to folks in the biological sciences, and I imagine there's more to it than simple hardness, probably crystal structure and all that differe between non chromium-containing alloys like 1095 and 52-100.
-
Jim Do you have any photos of the parts rough forged so we can see how you got there?
-
.
This one is from a Lancaster Co. 56" , 0.508 cal barrel smoothbore.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn514%2FJamesEverett%2Fgunlocks%2FLongLanc3c.jpg&hash=40e1af8dbac3d8bdbfe8820ad3cf1efae972608c)
Jim Everett
Very nice work. I build my own locks as well, but I do it with modern tools and materials. I'm impressed.
I've never seen a sear spring like the one shown above. Is it copied from an original? How is it attached to the plate?
-
Is there a sear spring screw under the bridle? Like the big English locks?
-
looks like it to me!!
-
why don't you do a Tutorials locks?
thank you
Richard Westerfield
-
Guys,
The lock I made for the Lancaster Co. LONG fowler (56" BBL) was an English style lock. The sear spring screw is behind the lock interior bridal plate, but it is the typical screw passing completely through the lockplate. It can not be seen from the lock exterior since it is behind the cock. This design makes lock assembly/disassembly a little more difficult. Maybe later I can post the in process parts for some locks that I am currently making. Check under the topic of the flash pan grinder to see the in process use of an original tool. Also, check under the tutorial for making 18th c. wood screws for the use of another original tool.
Jim Everett
-
Just so you guys know, making an in-depth tutorial is an incredible amount of work. Ofttimes the demonstrator needs to have a photographer to help take proper shots.
-
A tutorial on making locks from scratch would be like a mail order hair cut,difficult indeed.
Back in 1970,I gave Mr.Cochran tips and pointers on lock making as well as types of materials and sources,also permission to copy the internals if he wanted to. !970 was the year I went to the linked mainspring in several different flintlocks I was making. Mr.Cochran did a creditable job of copying my earlier type and as far as I know,they worked well. All the help I gave him was by phone in the evening after work.
Most lock makers use investment cast internal parts but I am not interested in having a glitch in someone else's quality control become my glitch. Mass production is OK (maybe)but I prefer to be the fanatic about small details.
At this time I am making 10 Twigg locks using the elegant external parts from R.E.Davis Co. and am now working on #6. I tried to get a picture posted for this forum of this lock and the double set trigger I made with it but Photo bucket isn't compatible with this ancient MSN2 system I use.IF anyone is interested in seeing these parts, my personal E mail is <wvgzr@webtv.net>.I will send the picture I have taken with our son's camera phone..
The scratch built lock shown on this forum is a fine job and I get tired just thinking about the work involved in it. The closest I get to this today is milling a lock plate for a Hawken caplock or an English 4 screw as used on a Rigby or some similar long range rifle.I have pictures of those as well if anyone is interested.
I use cast steel hammers on these caplocks but that is all.
Bob Roller
-
Bob,
I'll post a few pics of Twigg #4 that you sent me. Should be able to get that done this afternoon.
Regards,
Pletch
-
Danny & guys,
Here are some photos of the rough forged and inprocess parts for the locks I am now building. I probably will not be able to finish these soon as I am being sent overseas from Jan to June.
Here is a lock about half way done, about the size of a large Siler - all completely hand made from wrought iron using 18th c. tools & techniques.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_4822a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/9bf8d3b8-b5f2-4699-807e-d539e6dd0ed6/p/a26415a8-c3f7-4a68-b4db-e9da8d78f281)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_4828a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/9bf8d3b8-b5f2-4699-807e-d539e6dd0ed6/p/5fbb1a07-eaea-405e-8ed6-26e69af54371)
Here is the cock with the lower jaw rough formed and the jaw screw in place. You can see the inside shoulder rough forged in place.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_4831a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/9bf8d3b8-b5f2-4699-807e-d539e6dd0ed6/p/e4a2c9b5-d323-48e4-942d-a8c891daa15c)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_4832a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/9bf8d3b8-b5f2-4699-807e-d539e6dd0ed6/p/923edb15-ec43-4358-a4e5-a3071264b794)
Here are the springs roughed out. They are made from 1095 carbon steel and will be bent to the vee shape later.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_4829a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/9bf8d3b8-b5f2-4699-807e-d539e6dd0ed6/p/ae369108-1e73-41c6-87b1-09969a19e5cc)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_4830a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/9bf8d3b8-b5f2-4699-807e-d539e6dd0ed6/p/dd654972-ac09-4f8c-9c8d-1f290013e43d)
Jim Everett
-
I just finished taking photos of Bob's Twigg #4.
Front view:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FRoller%2520Twigg%2520Lock%2520Project%2FIMG_7107.jpg&hash=9c13fee825bd0c57b12a53533fedae613236413a)
Rear View:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FRoller%2520Twigg%2520Lock%2520Project%2FIMG_7106.jpg&hash=9eefaf7056a5c28443c653b97b9207c2dae5b5cf)
Close-up of tumbler area:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FRoller%2520Twigg%2520Lock%2520Project%2FIMG_7105.jpg&hash=0c6de98e996f625cfa0a0b489d18ef0809b9af1f)
Regards,
Pletch
-
Pletch,
Many thanks for posting the picture of the Twigg for me. As I said earlier,I will cut these off at the 10th one and they are all spoken for with deposits. Number 6 is ready and will go to "Kollyfornyuh"along with double set triggers.
The L&R Ashmore with my regular mechanism is a good performer and is a fairly good size lock. The Durs Egg is another one. I have done 2 or 3 of Jim Chambers late Ketland and it certainly works and is good looking as well.
My next series run will be 5 percussion schuetzen locks for a German gun maker and they will probably have a very similar mechanism to the Twiggs.
After that,who knows? I am miles behind on shop work because I supervised and helped a bit in the restoration of our 108 year old house and the complete redoing of the yard.We are now broke flatter than the Packard car company but happy and we know where every dime went. I am thinking of having an Amish group come in and build a new shop for me but haven't really decided on that one yet.
Thanks again for the picture posting as t shows this classic lock and what can be done if time is taken.
Bob Roller
-
Guys,
Here are some more photos of hand built locks. Again, the are built only using 18th c tooling and techniques, although I do sometimes shorten the time to make the locks by using twist drills, but sometimes I use the 18th c spade drills too.
Here is a brass plate lock from a brass barreled rifled pistol of 0.469 cal.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/BrassRifled4a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/e952cd42-bec9-41f6-a7ab-a2f33b0762d5)
[(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/BrassRifled5a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/8747ad10-476b-401d-aeff-1497d9a974c3)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/BrassRifled6a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/59c27aa5-0579-40cc-a0fe-7df2d9505020)
Here is a wrought iron lock from a wrought iron mounted pistol with a hand forged wrought iron barrel of 0.458 cal.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/WroughtIron5a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/7cb35edd-0974-40b8-8f9f-b99045c7e582)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/WroughtIron4a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/3cda7e92-9430-44df-8e3e-6e61738a99b8)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/WroughtIron6a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/0b61320d-71fd-422c-847b-51cce2f3b8e3/p/7a0a2eb9-1133-4480-9e24-d274be8e86b9)
Notice that I like to make early style locks that had a long throw to the cock. The full cock places the hammer much farther back than the modern locks. Also when I make a barrel, I work at the bore until it is smooth and shiny with a square armory reamer, then I measure the size. Whatever it is - it is. Apparently I find making flintlocks very entertaining.
Jim Everett
-
By t,he look of your internals, it doesn't seem necessary to have NASA style close tolerances and perfectly flat surfaces to make a good lock. Is there any way that you can show us some rough forgings of a cock, a spring and a battery?
-
Danny,
Check the photos posted on 13 November for the rough and in process parts.
Jim
-
Close tolerances and properly preloaded springs are the heart of a gun lock. On the Twigg locks I am making,I use a #35 reamer for the sear pin hole which is .110 and a pin diameter of .1094 plus no more than .002 overtravel at fully cocked. It's just as easy to do this as it is to mess it up beyond all hope of repair.
Bob Roller
-
I am going to forge a cock to this step and have some forging fun.
-
Danny,
Forging a cock is both fun and challenging. The challenge I found was in making the "second" bend. The first bend is the one just below the lower jaw and is easy to do. The second bend brings the iron back to where the tumbler screw hole will be located. The challenge is that when you try the second bend, the first bend will straighten out!! I use a jig made from two separate rectangular steel blocks with 1/4 inch diameter pins protruding by about 1.5 inch. You can clamp the blocks in a big post vise so the pins are as close, or as far apart as required by just adjusting the relative position of the blocks in the vise.
After the second bend is when you flatten/widen the tumbler hole area and at the same time form the step. If you use wrought iron, be sure to make this end a good bit longer than required as wrought iron will tend to split at the end during the flatten/widen forging. Later you cut the split end off to bring the cock to the correct size.
If this does not make sense, let me know & I can post some photos.
Jim Everett
-
Sir, I understand, but I would like to see a couple of photos anyway.
-
Just a note: it takes a lot of work to gather and post photos; if you don't have the requested shots, especially if you have to go light the forge and get someone good with a camera to take pictures.
It is really great to have all this information on the web. Virtual apprenticing to a master, twenty first century style.
Tom
-
Guys,
I am not lighting the forge, but these photos should show how the jig is used for the challenging job of forging a flint cock. Just pretend that the iron is orange hot and the sweat is dripping in your eyes. Never forge wrought iron red - keep it at least orange hot.
Here are two photos of the bending jig blocks. The pins are 1/4 inch diameter and are threaded into the blocks.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4853a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/718a3421-485a-4714-89a5-89e6ddcd8cc0)
[(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4854a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/46d6ea26-f414-4f89-b72c-8b1c7cf00a2a)
Here are two photos of forged cocks. I rough finish the lower jaw & thumb piece before doing the second bend. Notice the split ends at the bottom of one of the cocks, very typical of wrought iron forgings, but rare in steel.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4855a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/9f50bdae-05cb-4b81-b118-11ed778fa573)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4856a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/936b3f54-07f6-4329-b2bc-b6819012148c)
Here are photos of the "hot" cock being forged in the jig blocks. The blocks would be held in a big post vice and the distance between the pins adjusted to make the gunsmith happy. I use a Siler cock as a gauge to set the distance.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4858a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/40bee3a9-68be-444b-b09a-6e1cf92e40a5)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4857a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/b591ed37-c33e-4526-b7eb-5d954c3faef8)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Bending%20Jig/100_4859a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/d063a12c-d25d-408c-9e56-80a6f6f84b54/p/a4b1310c-03ac-4865-8f98-277ae0d747ae)
When making a hot bend in wrought iron it is better to tap the hot metal on the exterior of the bend to form it around the pin rather than pulling it around like a lever. When you pull the iron around a bend as is often done with steel, the wrought iron grain can open up and ruin the piece. When the tumbler hole area is forged to widen/flatten, the piece will pass from the jig to the anvil, back to the jig then to the anvil, et cetera until the gunsmith is happy. This is not a simple one shot deal.
Jim Everett
-
Mr. Everett,
Forging metal is very interesting to me. Watching someone that knows what they are doing, and trying to anticipate their next move is fascinating. I am usually wrong! I may never do this, but then, I'm doing a lot of things I thought I would (could) never do. I just picked up some nineteenth century real wrought iron, so who knows. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Robby
-
Thanks.
Acer,
I have complete understanding of the work involved in writing and posting tutorials. Also the aggravation that comes when they are overlooked and unnecessary questions are asked time and again.
-
Jim, I am amazed at you near net-shape forging. I think in an ideal world, that's how it would be. But I know if I tried this, I'd be filing and sawing all the lumps off. Great work.
-
Jim, Thanks, I had it figgered that you used a 1/4 in round nosed fuller to fuller the curves in,bending forks work well too. I will give it a shot this weekend and copy an old english lock cock in cheap steel this weekend, and try to get some pictures.
Danny
-
Jim, Here is a link to the lock that I want to build a trade gun around, circa 1600s: http://briangodwin.co.uk/images/Type1/11%20Chirk-Dunster%20in.jpg It seems more anvil time and less vice time was invested in these locks. TRS has the castings for something similar but not the plate and of course they aren't iron. When you use the Siler as a model, are you more concerned with geometry or shape?
-
Danny,
Good luck on the 1600's lock! The link shows these really early ones that I am sure will be a great challenge. Yes, I "cheat" by using the large Siler as a model. Certainly for geometry and much less so for shape.
Specifically - I use the Siler lock plate to position the holes for the parts. When I make a detachable pan lock I use an old Siler plate that I have removed the small block on the pan interior to give a smooth inner surface. After the iron plate is roughly smooth on inside/outside I "glue" the Siler plate to it using Elmers glue. Then I can locate punch the mounting holes using the Siler holes as a guide and I can shape the outside by filing to the Siler outside (if I wish - or not). Look at the 2 locks posted on 14 November and you can see the result.
For a lock with a forge welded pan I use a Siler plate that has the pan area cut away more to fit around the pan on the iron plate.
Oh yes - some hot water and the Elmers glue releases after you are done..
The holes that I do not use the Siler plate for are the pin holes for the mainspring and for the frizzen spring. I do punch these locations, but I drill the holes after the springs are finished - I just find this easier for the spring making.
After this the geometry is set and set correctly. Then the shape of the lock can be either a flat German, flat English, rounded English or whatever you wish.
Jim Everett
-
Did you notice on some of these English locks how many mainspring holes are jumbled together on the plate? The smith made the spring and then drilled his hole, Nice technique.
-
hmm id love to see some video of this ;D alot of your process seems to match hand forging the muzzleloading gun lock book but i do like your jig a little better for making the cock what are you making the frizzen out ???
-
Guys,
I have made the frizzens from a variety of materials. It is boring to do the same thing every time. In truth, I like to get experience by trying different methods that were used 250 years ago.
Specifically I have forged frizzens in three ways.
1. Case hardened wrought iron. This is the most difficult because even after you forge and finish the frizzen, it must be hardened. I use 1/3 bone charcoal, 1/3 leather charcoal, 1/3 hardwood charcoal. The soft frizzen is covered in the charcoal, put in a small metal pot - I use an old lead melting pot with a flat metal plate lid. Next the pot is heated orange in a forge for several hours. This is boring so I try to have some other hot job to do during this time. I take the frizzen out of the charcoal, reheat to orange and quench in brine. I have no idea how deep hardened surface is, but the frizzens last a long time.
2. Sole plate frizzen. Here the wrought iron frizzen remains soft and a thin plate of steel is riveted to the face. I use 1095 and three iron rivets, then the whole thing is hardened. The drawback to this method is when the frizzen is quenched the sole plate tends to warp giving a tiny gap in places between the iron frizzen and the sole plate. I have not found a solution. I know of other gunsmiths who solder the sole plate on, but this would seem to me that the sole plate is softened in the process.
3. Forge the entire frizzen out of 1095, finish and harden. This way seems to be the best.
Jim Everett
-
I brazed a sole plate on an old battery once with no gaps and dropped it in water to quench it.A couple of turns on my grind stone and she was ready.
-
Any chance that you will teach a seminar one day?
-
Guys,
Here are some photos of the jig I use to ensure that the lock geometry stays correct. As discussed in the posting earlier on 17 November, I use a Siler lock plate that has been modified to locate the screw holes for the lock internals. I have ground off the lump on the Siler interior to give a smooth inner surface. Also I have ground off the detachable pan area to fit around the flash pan when I make a lock with the pan forge welded on. I am sure that you can envision how the pan would be in the way without the large clearance. I glue the Siler plate onto the in process lock plate with Elmer's glue, then punch locate all of the holes and also I can shape the lock exterior using the outside of the Siler as a guide (if I choose the make a lock with the Siler outside shape). Hot water releases the Elmer's glue and I have all the holes located in their proper positions. I drill through all the holes with the exception of the mainspring and frizzen spring pin locations. I usually wait until after making the springs to set their final locations. You can see that these holes are not drilled on the in process lock plate.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4890a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/edfe51f2-3009-42dc-b487-8a89a803ff40)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4889a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/9e4f6253-6f45-4651-bb5d-f1bd90c4125a)
-
Nice, do you use any depth or thickness gauges like the British shops used for internal parts checking?
-
Danny,
I do not use any depth or thickness gauges to make the locks. I would like to see any photos of gauges if you have them. The only gauge I use is a go-nogo pin gauge to determine the correct hole size for the 0.174-30 tap. If I use the 18th c spade drill with a square reamer there is really no other way of telling when the hole is the correct size. When I use modern twist drills I just drill the hole to a 0.147 diameter which cuts out a huge amount of time and ends up with the same hole. Maybe later I can post the rather involved process of getting the 0.147 hole using 18th c methods & tools.
Jim
-
Jim, I have run across some photos of go no go gauges for the RSA at Leeds, UK and the Halls rifle at Harper s Ferry somewhere on the internet. The British made brass gauges out of small sheets of brass that were cut , filed and marked in such a way that a complete set had all of the critical dimensions for a Pattern Room firearm. Each subcontractor got a certain set such as a Lock set and rough forgings could be finished at the bench and carefully checked for fit. The inspectors and assembles could recheck with more supplied Gauges and finished parts could be stored at the armouries until needed. If I can ever find the photos again, I will post them here.
Danny
-
Danny,
Now I know what you mean by the gauges. I have seen the collection of the go-nogo gauges that are on display at Harpers Ferry. These things are surely wonderful works of art by themselves. It is well worth the trip to see them at the Harpers ferry NHS, they are beautiful. For the "shade tree" gunsmith who makes a gunlock every once in a while, such gauges would not serve the same purpose as they did at the mass production armories. I guess the only other gauge that I use is the stops between the cutting surfaces of my tumbler mill. I tend to make the tumbler somewhat thicker than those used in modern locks.
Jim Everett
-
Guys,
Here is a photo of the go-nogo gauge that I use to determine when the lock screw blank hole has been reamed to the proper dimension. If you look closely you can see the line where the pin diameter increases by a few thousanth of an inch. The hole is good when the first part of the pin passes, but the second part is too big. As you can see, this is really unsophisticated, but it works and it is necessary.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4883a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/99f46154-fcfe-4c3b-8925-a8440aea6afd)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4884a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/94b07e29-1fd8-4e29-84f0-7b92cc5a6866)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4885a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/7e54beaa-daa6-4536-9b1d-1d42a942caa4)
The last photo shows the square reamer as it would be used to open the hole up the the proper diameter for the tap.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4887a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/ff6ed62f-b63e-46e1-9e1e-ad07b90a891f)
Jim Everett
-
Jim, When you say you drill al the holes except the ones for the pegs on the springs, my old dusty light bulb lit up. Duh, well, of course you'd drill the spring hole afterwards, once you've got the spring made. That allows you to position the spring.
My backwards way is to fit a spring to a lock with an existing peg hole. Then the hook is the dimension I have to create exactly, which is pretty hard to do. It would be better to plug/weld the peg hole, and then redrill it upon fitting the spring.
-
Back when I was making rebuild kits for the Pedersoli-Gibbs long range muzzle loader locks,I had to fit a new main spring to an existing hole. I have one of the locks that was new and used it as a gauge for everything except the sear spring. The mainspring was formed and then the stud filed in from an area in the upper limb that was left a bit wide just for that purpose. It isn't hard to do.
On new locks,the stud is in place and the spring has not yet been opened or spread to set the preloading. I set the tumbler at full cock and locate the spot in the plate where the stud must be located,mark it and drill it with a #44 drill.The stud is also ,085 so that works well
and looks good.
My locks for the last 41 years have used the link or "stirrup"mainspring connector. I abandoned the old sliding ramp/progressive radius type springs altogether.
I have been asked to make these again for different makes of locks that have had trouble with cast mainsprings but I would have to make new tools(a forming die) for this, and buy the various locks that use them for test vehicles,
It makes me tired to even think about it.
Bob Roller
-
Guys,
The tapered square reamer may seem to be an unusual tool to many of us here. But thinking on the history of gunlock making, this "weird" kind of tool was used for a much longer time period than the modern chucking reamer familiar to all machinists today. Actually, if you ever try one of these original style tools you will certainly be suprised at how aggressive a cut is made by a tapered square reamer. It really removes a lot of metal quickly.
If the smith wished to be a bit less agressive in the cut, he could use a reamer with even more than four sides. Are you kidding? Really, the old time smiths used reamers with up to 8 sides for a more gentle cut. Even round reamers, if we can call them by that name, were used to give a hole just a burnish.
Here is a photo of some of these. The top reamer has 8 sides and the bottom has 5. Note the top reamer has been modified to fit into a modern brace chuck by grinding the relief for the chuck fingers to grab. The 18th c greae did not need this feature.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/drills/100_4798a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/978746da-b0d1-4503-b54a-8e44d84690c1/p/3bce5575-840c-44d5-a253-5dad85bcaac1)
This photo is from the mid 18th c catalog of tools by John Wyke and shows the variety of tapered reamers he sold.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Wyke/Reamer1a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/59f48ff2-b870-451b-9b32-0808e0f04812/p/6dda0e0f-a3e3-46f6-a7d5-a1ea262113d6)
Jim Everett
-
In 1957,I worked at a hardware store here in Huntington WV that still had square reamers in stock. Back when America was an industrial nation and before belchburgers became the main supporting industry,a lot of harware stores had NOS--New Old Stock items still in the shelves with the old prices still on them because the owners knew that they would never renew that kind of inventory again. The one I worked in was J.L.Cook and they did not believe in trying to do business from an empty shelf. They had almost every kind and cut of file made by all the best makers and every size of drill bit on the chart,same for taps and dies. Also all the best in precision measuring tools. I have all my Starrett micrometers that I bought there along with other high quality tools.
Thanks for reminding me of a day now gone but still fresh in memory.
Bob Roller
-
Jim, I bought a few of those on E Bay, just to see how they were made and I plan to make some after I beat back the Honey Do list. I dismounted my small vice and found the set marks on the off side for the bow drill just like your's. Do you have a Smith's hack saw somewhere or do you use one of those godawful lightweight modern jobs with the cheap blades? 15 years back, I used to turn out a forged hack saw frame in less that an hour and a 1 inch wide blade would cut for a year as long as I used it less 5 days a week and cut steel less than 2 inches square.
Danny
-
Danny,
Thanks for the response. Many of the 18th c bench vices and some of the post vices have those strange dimples for the bow drills. As for the hack saws, I use two. The first is a large frame hacksaw, I use a modern blade here with the teeth facing away, just like a modern hacksaw. It really is nice to use as the frame does seem to be more stout than the modern ones.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Misc%20Tools/100_4957a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/922a134e-d703-475c-9234-663b709f4c10/p/3df1460a-d5d8-4ecd-ae1a-530fda0d051a)
The second is a much smaller and lighter frame that I carry in my journeyman's box. With this one I find that reversing the teeth is better, it cuts on the pull.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Misc%20Tools/100_4937a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/922a134e-d703-475c-9234-663b709f4c10/p/3f4ef156-45d9-4aee-ba4f-952312da79ed)
The last photo is from the John Wyke catalog showing a typical 18th c hacksaw.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Wyke/HackSawa.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/59f48ff2-b870-451b-9b32-0808e0f04812/p/377edb52-3dcf-456f-9967-04ed6d2ef5aa)
Somewhere in the junk of my shop I have an original blade for one of these saws. It has been sharpened so many times that the teeth form a rainbow curve, It is neat looking, but I don't use it.
Jim Everett
-
Guys,
Here is the original hacksaw blade that came with the smaller of the above two saw frames. You can see the "rainbow" curve of the blade caused as the teeth were resharpened repeatedly during its life. It is hard to tell the age of such rarities, but certainly it is functionally identical with 18th c blades. The teeth do not have any kerf that I can see, nor do they have any directional bias. It appears that the blade will "cut" the same on the push stroke as on the pull staoke. Notice the quotation marks around the word "cut"! It does not appear that this blade would cut as efficiently as the modern ones. When I use the saw frames above, I use modern blades that I have removed the paint and blued so they look correct, but actually cut metal. Looks closely at the frame photos and you can see. Have you have ever wondered why 18th c gunsmiths so often forged and hot cut the iron rather than cut the metal with a hacksaw? Now you know.
P.S. - I only take 18th c gun building so far. I don't make my own blades, life may be too short for that.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Misc%20Tools/100_5014a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/922a134e-d703-475c-9234-663b709f4c10/p/c4be400d-925e-4334-8e9a-e0070e2e5bf9)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Misc%20Tools/100_5017a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/922a134e-d703-475c-9234-663b709f4c10/p/268af0e0-36d5-4ce1-ae08-df96c32305ce)
-
Jim, from what you write, probably the teeth are more like scrapers than teeth. The blade will part metal, surely, but it would be nice to have the apprentice do the cutting. ;D
-
15 years ago my friend David Stone found himself in need of a hack saw blade for a frame just like yours. He searched all over his shop and Tryon Palace grounds. He did not find any blades but he did find a pallet of bricks with intact strapping. He cut a yard of strapping off and an hour later had filed the teeth along the edge and punched two holes in the ends and was using it to saw what needed sawing.
Personally I like to use 1 inch Bimetal bandsaw blades. I cut them to length with a cold chisel, drill the 1/8 inch holes in the ends with a Champion drill press with lots of cutting fluid and the cam dialed way back. Usually I have lost one of the pins so I have to nick the tip off of an iron nail to pin each end of the blade. one inch blades are too rank to pull through the iron by hand so I hammer the offset flat on the anvil. After that I am good for another year of sawing.
I think that the old smiths forged more than cut because it is quicker and saves files and iron. Forging moves the iron around while filing throws it on the floor.
Danny
-
Guys,
I understand and entirely agree with the last comments on the hacksaw blades we use today. Personally, I have repented (several ties, too!) after buying cheap blades. After about 10 minutes of use, they are toast. You are probably saying to yourself - been there & done that. But think on the gunsmith in a tiny village near Lancaster in 1785! Right, hitch up old Dobbin, I'm going to Lowes for some more bimetal precision blades!
The photo posted 8 Dec shows a section of the John Wyke tool catalog. Here you can see hacksaw blades for sale, certainly straight carbon steel ones. The trip from Birmingham, England to Crossroads, Pennsylvania is months long, so although available, they were not common. I believe that the gunsmith sharpened & resharpened his blade until it looked like the example shown.
I have great respect for the modern craftsmanship and artistry displayed on this website. But think that the original guns were made without bimetal, carbide, CNC or Track of the Wolf. If more of us would really make a gun part using only period techniques and tools, we would stand in amazement of an original gun, and the awsome skill it took to make it. Perhaps here is a challenge, to make a hacksaw blade and cut wrought iron with it. No, I have not done this.
Jim Everett
-
Very true, I started using the band saw blades because the finished blade closely resembled those from Wykes cat. I even rounded the ends to look like the UK examples. Since I was working only a days ride from the port of Wilmington and hacksaw blades were listed as items purchased from the hardware store by James Foy for the plantation in Wilmington, thanks to ECU archives, I thought that I was making a fair copy. Saw blades are very portable, more so than files, All of the city whitesmiths must have had access to them. The best thing about cutting your own is you can make alternative length frames. Jim, I have a British antique tool guide that pictures a rough forged smiths saw with a blade made from a section of sythe blade, curve and all.
Danny
-
http://www.theoldtoolshed.co.uk/images/thumbs/0001523_300.jpeg
-
http://www.vintagetools.net/product_images/11W1.jpg
-
Guys,
Here is another tool used in hand making a gunlock. It is called a tumbler mill and is used to finish the lock tumbers shafts. This tool will form the bridal shaft pin and the hammer shaft exactly co-axial and the inner/outer faces of the tumbler parallel and square with the shaft. The in process tumbler shown is refined wrought iron that will be case hardened when finished. At least 95% of the tumbler is done with files and the mill is used for the final cuts. The tool is made from a fine cut mill file with the clearance holes for the tumbler shafts. The brass spacers set the thickness of the tumbler which I make a bit thicker than the store bought locks we get today. The big shank of the tumbler is held in a vice while the screws of the mill are tightened, the mill is then rotated a few turns, the screws tightened, and then a few more turns. I am sure that you can envision how it works. You have to loosen the screws frequently to clear chips.
I can make three different size tumblers, but I normally make the size shown. The other holes are for making various sizes of screw shaft blanks when I do "shade tree" gunsmithing at 18th c trades fairs. With this tool and my screw plates I can make a replacement 18th c lock screw in the field while the crowd watches. Folks are at times surprised that this can be done without a lathe, dies, etc.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Tumbler%20Mill/100_4899a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Tumbler%20Mill/100_4902a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Tumbler%20Mill/100_4900a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Tumbler%20Mill/100_4898a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Tumbler%20Mill/100_4901a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
-
Wow, I have heard of this tool for 20 years but I have never seen one. I thought that it would look like a coffee mill. Thanks Jim.
-
THAT is "scratching" at its best. How thick are your tumblers? I used a fine English lock for my dimensions which are ,232-,235.
Bob Roller
-
Bob,
Thanks for the reply, the tumbler in the photo is 0.265, another made from the same tool measures 0.260 - go figure. Since these things are case hardened wrought iron I feel better in making them a bit beefier than Siler type parts. Of course the sear must be the same thickness, too.
Jim Everett
-
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy58%2FDTaylorSapergia%2Fbobslock2.jpg&hash=0dfebffb08fd759d4149df84116e1987131c1e4d)
Here's a hand made lock by Bob Roller. He is unable to submit photos with his computer system, so I'm doing it for him.
The lock is entirely machined and forged by Bob; only the hammer is a casting. Over the years, it seems most of these fabulous pieces have been scooped up by Europeans, either collecting pieces of exceptional hand craftsmanship, or using them in serious muzzle loading rifles. If you've ever had the privilege of handling and cycling one of Bob's locks, you cannot help but be impressed at the smoothness, power, and crispness of the action. There is no over-travel when the hammer comes to full bent. Very cool locks!! Thanks for sending me the image of that one, Bob.
-
Taylor,
Many thanks for the big assist and fine comments about these locks. I made the first one of this type in 1987 thanks to The late and very much missed Lynton McKenzie. He was always more than willing to send on loan to me ANY item he had to study or to try to duplicate.
The one this is copied from was off of an Alex Henry target rifle. The next time I wanted one for a smaller rifle or maybe even a pistol and Lynton came thru again by taking a fine little four screw lock OFF an existing Whitworth boys rifle.This one has also been copied by me about five times for people who want something a bit different. I think I have made twenty of the bigger ones but I keep no data on these or anything else.
Thanks again for helping me get this lock out where it could be seen.
Bob Roller
-
Nice looking lock Bob. Just curious why you used a screw to secure the top link joint instead of the conventional "half lap" cut out at the end of the tumbler arm.
Jim Westberg
-
I liked the screw better and it adds a small detail to the rest of the assembly. I have seen locks similar to this using a screw for the link and they aren't hard to make. I haven't made one of these locks in a long time and may make one for a rifle I have started for myself (maybe).
Bob Roller
-
I recently made a replacement stirrup for a nice quality English shotgun lock, one of the half lap style. I would much rather make the screw secured type.
-
I appreciate the people who, in their own ihands, laboriously, trying to carry out the reconstruction of the weapons,
I myself am trying to proceed in this way, This allows me to continue to learn and to better understand human history, crafts, etc.
I also built a number of mechanisms flinlock. This is one of many examples. I bought the rifle barrel only, the other built works (100%) personally with Flintlock Mechanism
https://www.youtube.com/user/bolek1964?feature=mhee#p/u/6/hmG9YnGdi20
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/258839/fromsearch/1/tp/1/
-
Guys,
Here is a gunlock that will either make you laugh, or cry, or both simultaneously. It is a converted flintlock that has had the screw holes and the spring holes filled and refilled about upteen times. If you ever think that you have messed up a lock to the point of no return, just remember this old lock probably put a lot of meat on the table. (And surely could still today on it's 200th birthday). Also, check out the braze repair to the hammer nose.
Jim Everett
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Fry%20Tools/100_5051a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Tools/Fry%20Tools/100_5052a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
-
Rich,
The bolster block on the lockplate interior is not welded on. The lockplate/bolster is cut from a thicker piece of wrought iron, a wagon wheel rim. The pan is forge welded on. I have also made them with detatchable pans - like the Siler lock. This method is actually more work to file the plate & pan to fit nicely.
Jim Everett
Quite impressive Jim. Could you describe in more detail how you go about forge welding the pan on? I bet that is tricky isn't it? You must have one heck of a lot of experience forge welding to be able to do it. I know guys that have been blacksmiths for years and years who could forge weld just about anything but would still have difficulty doing that. How long have you been a blacksmith? How do you go about holding the pan and plate when your getting it up to forging temp? Any secrets you would care to share? What kind of forge do you have charcoal or coal? How is your forge set up? How about flux what do you use? When you silver solder the pans on how do you go about doing that in the forge?
I could go on and on asking you to describe your 18th century methods used in making these locks. It's just so fascinating...
Thought I would share some pics of a tumbler mill that another fellow made. Nice piece of work isn't it? Kind of amazing how when a person gets to be a true artisan their craftsmanship is reflected in just about everything they do.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy32%2Fnorthwoodsforge%2FTriggerTools003.jpg&hash=705bd99f7601de8b8f970093895ab8f57c0fad86)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy32%2Fnorthwoodsforge%2FTriggerTools005.jpg&hash=455f5279714069d560ce6a6c0c43bc78fa2ac0dc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy32%2Fnorthwoodsforge%2FTriggerTools006.jpg&hash=a6d78e29527d9c8be5b20b96e378a240d60bca7f)
-
Hello Tony,
That's a nice piece of machinery you've shown there. One thing to note. I believe it's the concensus that when pans are integral to the plate, originally they would have been made in one piece by folding the pan over in a forging die of sorts. I understand the guys at Williamsburg forge welded the pans on for a time but now believe the pans were fromed from on piece of material and therefore use a die that lets them fold it over.
-
Tony,
Truly a beautiful tool, a work of art for sure. It must be a real joy to use it!
As for welding the pan on, it is not so difficult the way I do it. First, I use oxy-acetylene rather than coal/charcoal. Also, with oxy-acetylene you do not need to use any flux. I use a firebrick that has a recess the shape of the interior lock bolster cut into the surface. This allows the lockplate to sit down snug against the brick top surface. The lockplate is finished somewhat close to final dimensions except it is high in the pan area, up to the level of the flashpan fence top. The pan is actually a bar at least 18" long, like a handle from a large blacksmith tongs. I lay the bar on the lockplate surface, it is oriented so that it would be hanging plumb down when the lock is in the firing position. I heat the bar end and the pan area of the lockplate simultaneously with the torch until both surfaces show that slight movement at the point of melting. Then I rotate the bar up 90 degrees to the lockplate and push down a bit by hand. A few seconds of cooling and it is done. I do not even hit it with a hammer.
I then cut the pan top surface down leaving the pan fence uncut. All of the lockplate holes are drilled and the final outside shaped after the pan is welded on. It is a lot easier to drill the holes to match the welded on pan that it is to weld the pan on at a precise location.
Jim Everett
-
Tony, thx for showing. I am in awe of the "heart" put into your tool... truly inspiring...... Kerry
-
Tony,
Here are some closeups of the finished forge welded pans. I said I can do it, not that I do it well. Actually, when the job is new & shiney they look nice. But, as you can see after some use the corrosion shows a lack of fusion line at the interface. The lack of fusion is at the center of the weld. I cut away a lot to bring the top pan surface down to the correct level, then even more to cut the pan hollow. Goodness but these look shabby under magnification! Maybe I should use flux. The first three are entirely 18thc hand made from wrought iron. The first is a Germanic lock on a Jaeger rifle with an original barrel.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/Pans/100_5100a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
The next is an English style from a long fowling piece with a 56 inch barrel. This one actually shows a little of the original forged surface at the base of the pan fence that did not clean up when the pan was finished (read as bad forging by me).
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/Pans/100_5102a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
The third is a detachable pan Germanic lock from a Lehigh style rifle.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/Pans/100_5104a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
This one is a store bought & machine made lock with an integral pan, like most folks use.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/Pans/100_5107a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
The last is a store bought & machine made lock with a detachable pan.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/gunlocks/Pans/100_5108a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)[/URL]
My locks are hand made, but I know that they are not as good as the modern ones. Close up photos can really make a proud man feel humble.
Jim Everett
-
Jim, Why couldn't you leave a lip of iron on the top of the plate and forge it over 90 deg and then shape it into a pan? Queen Anne doglocks exhibit such a trait.
-
...Here is a gunlock that will either make you laugh, or cry, or both simultaneously. It is a converted flintlock that has had the screw holes and the spring holes filled and refilled about upteen times. If you ever think that you have messed up a lock to the point of no return, just remember this old lock probably put a lot of meat on the table...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn514%2FJamesEverett%2FTools%2FFry%2520Tools%2F100_5052a.jpg&hash=4e89989eeaa8e8b2ab5291bccbd2798213311aa0)
I don't see anything wrong with plugging & moving holes. I have plugged barrels that were drum & nipple to use on a flint lock with a vent liner. The plug may not line up good for a touch hole but who says the hole has to be in the center?
-
Danny,
I might try forging the pan as you describe. However, I have always found it to be very difficult to forge a sharp square on the outside of a bend. Have you ever forged a pan this way? I am sure that it would require a high skill level to do it. I even find it difficult to get an outside square on the little lock sear piece. Often my sears have an outside radius. Oh well, I will keep on trying. Thanks for the comment.
Keb Mo,
Thats the spirit, plug those holes and be happy. With all of the great artists on this site that are able to make a brand new gun appear to be 200 years old, it might be interesting to make a few plugs in a lockplate just for the "old" appearance. As for me, when I finish a gun it looks new. Thanks for the comment, but dont go so far as to make a "Swiss cheese" lockplate like that one above.
Jim Everett
-
I have plugged a main spring hole to use a different tumbler with a fly & bigger spring on one of these.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackofthewolf.com%2FimgPart%2Flock-barker-f-rh_2.jpg&hash=8700c0444f160e2ff020fea459637ab4b6f593c1)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackofthewolf.com%2FimgPart%2Flock-barker-f-rh_1.jpg&hash=7bd353a2ccfa3baddafabdf51d2b0c530db50c27)
The plug is nearly invisible behind the firzzen spring and the lock functions acceptable now.
-
Guys,
This is a reply to a message I received on how the tumbler mill was made. First, I adapted it from one illustrated in the Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology, Volume I, page 36 that was made for use at the Colonial Williamsburg gunshop. To mine I added several different size holes to be used as "field or shade tree" screw shank grinders. They are mostly in the plate that is behind in the photo so just a few are visible.
I placed a new fine cut mill file in an oven and heated to 1500F and allowed to furnace cool. This fully annealed the file. I then cut the soft file into two sections and glued them together using Elmer's glue. This allowed me to stack drill all holes that were required to be aligned in the finished tool, the two bolt holes and the three tumbler holes. After the holes were drilled I separated the two pieces with hot water. Next I reamed the holes for the larger shaft of the tumblers and I drilled various sizes of screw shank grinder holes. When all the holes were finished I again heated the two pieces to 1500 and quenched in brine. Add the bolts, nuts & spacers and the thing is finished.
Jim Everett
-
Jim, The way to get a square edge is to leave that are twice as thick, if the plate is 3/ 16ths leave 1/2 in where the bend will be. When you forge it over on the vice chaps you can back it up a little to get the sharp edge and maybe go ahead and fuller the pan recess too. My forge is back up so I am going to give it a go.
I just got my second post vice in the mail yesterday, now I have one for hot work and one for cold.
Danny
-
When I tried leaving some metal and bending the pan over I found it VERY difficult to get a sharp outside corner --- not on the pan and bolster but on the pan fence.
That is why I started examining the grain structure in rusted relics of original locks and discovered that at least some of them had the pan butt welded on to the plate. The "grain" of the iron in the pan ran at 90 degrees to the grain in the plate and bolster.
I also believed that welding on the pan was less wasteful of material and way quicker than filing away the excess iron required to get a sharp corner by bending. One of the best lessons I learned from Master Blacksmith John Algood was "Five minutes at the forge can save you five hours with the file." I never got that good at forging but the skilled guys who do it all the time can forge circles around most gunsmiths of today.
-
Do ya'll think that the smith shaped the pan on the end of a bar and butt welded the pan to the plate?
-
Guys,
When I forge weld the pan onto the plate the rod that becomes the pan is much oversized. After welding there is a lot of cutting back to the final dimensions. I guess I am guilty of spending the five hours with the file. The thing is that the pan fence will have a lot less mass than the pan body, so if the pan were to be closer to its final shape, then the thin pan fence section would melt away before the heavier pan body is hot enough to weld. It always seems to be easier to weld when both pieces have about the same mass. Welding a little piece to a big piece is much harder. Welding a pan onto the lockplate bolster with that little skinny pan fence already formed would be most difficult, at least for me. As you all can see in the photos, my weld is imperfect anyways.
Jim Everett
-
I just posted some copies of Volume 1 of JHAT (1985) in the for sale section. It includes a section on welding the pan on an English style lock. Lots about the period tools as well.
Gary
-
Guys,
Here is a short summary on how to get the cock properly positioned. Positioning the tumbler lip, tumbler square, cock shoulder and cock position all at the same time it can be like juggling 4 balls in the air. First here is a photo of the before & after of the forged wrought iron cock, notice that I drill the pivot hole in the proper location to set the throw length, then file the metal to center around the existing hole.
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/hammer2a.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/In%20Process/hammer2a.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/Hammer1a.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/In%20Process/Hammer1a.jpg.html)
I do not finish the cock interior shoulder, the one that hits the top of the lock plate, until the very end. I install the cock on the tumbler square at my best guess of the proper orientation, but since the cock shoulder is unfinished the installed cock would sit at about the half cock position Then I gradually file the shoulder back until the cock rotates to a proper hammer down position. With the mainspring in palce I allow the cock to rotate forward until the toe of the mainspring is just at the end of travel on the tumbler lip. In the case of this lock the mainspring to tumbler position is good, but the cock is still slightly far back from the pan. However, this would not effect lock operation. I never have done anything perfectly.
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_5871a.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/In%20Process/100_5871a.jpg.html)
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/In%20Process/100_5868a.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/In%20Process/100_5868a.jpg.html)
Bottom line - when you forge a cock, leave the cock interior shoulder way too big, then file it back until everything is happy.
Jim
-
I like to have the internals set up first then worry about positioning the cock. A method for this that has worked well for me is to drill a hole in the cock just big enough for the tumbler screw. Tin the back side of the cock with a layer of soft solder. Screw the cock to the tumbler in the proper rest position. Smack the cock with a hammer and a piece of pipe or wood that fits over the tumbler screw. This will leave a square mark in the soft solder layer. You can then drill the hole bigger and file it square to the mark. You can also drill the hole full size to start and then make up a thin businging to center the tumbler screw in.
-
That is an excellent tip, one for the shop notebook.
-
Should give credit for this. I believe I heard it here quite a while ago from Jerry Huddleston.
-
(bringing yet another 10 year old topic back from the dead) Any chance for picture recovery on this thread?
-
Guys,
I worked to recover the photos from the internet heaven, or wherever they went.
Jim