AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Belleville on February 25, 2012, 12:25:58 AM
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Recently picked-up a rifle which supposedly has a 44" .50 cal Colerain barrel. I have no experirnce w/a Colerain barrel. What ball dia. and patch thickness works well? While I haven't tried to seat it yet, the .490" ball and .020" patch I use in a Getz barrel rifle seems large for the Colerain?
Thought that I would ask before sticking a ball at the muzzle if the .490/.020 combination is in fact large. I have an unmounted .50 cal Colerain that I hope to put into a stock someday and the .490/.020 seems large for it also?
Please share your Colerain barrel load information
Thanks,
Doc S.
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I have a Colerain .50, and the first three rules of Colerain are:
1. Your patch isn't thick enough
2. Your patch isn't thick enough
3. Your patch isn't thick enough
The Colerain .50 has .016" deep grooves, deep enough to bog a skidder.
I started with a .490 ball and a 0.015 patch and it fouled badly and shot all over the place.
Consider that when you add it up your total groove to groove diameter is .532. My original .490 + .015 + .015 = .520, so .006 open in the bottom of the grooves.
I now shoot a .495 ball with washed heavy ticking that mikes out around .023 to .025, so a total diameter of .541, at least. That gives it roughly .004 compression at the bottom of the grooves.
I use either orange hand cleaner or rubbing alcohol/neatsfoot mix as a lube and it rams easily. I had to round off the crown, though. The barrel came with a 45 degree machined angle in the muzzle, which was useless.
Now the only obstacle to accuracy is the nut behind the butt plate.
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The best answer will be one you derive yourself. So you have some math to do.
Measure the bore and the groove depth. Subtract the diameter of the ball (.490") from the GROOVE diameter, add about .005" - .010" for compression of the patch, and divide the number by 2. That'll be your patch thickness. This is a good starting point. This will all depend upon what you want from your rifle...ie: ultimate accuracy on one hand, or effortless loading on the other. Effortless loading will require frequent c leaning in the field, and result in mediocre accuracy. All IMHO, of course.
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The Colerain .50 has .016" deep grooves, deep enough to bog a skidder.
Same thing when I replaced a .58cal Hawken that had a GM .012" square groove barrel, with a Rice .58cal that had .016" round bottom grooves...felt much "roomier" in there.
The .570" & .018" pillow ticking in the GM square groove needed a short starter and was very accurate.
But that combo was a little loose in the deep groove Rice...went up to a thicker snug fitting .022" patch and it's an outstanding combination for my shooting/hunting
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Everyone has supplied excellent advice with accurate notes on potential accuracy. Taylor uses a .495" ball in his Rice .50, rounded rilfing, with an over .020" patch. For heavy loads, it actually needs a thicker patch as the striped blue denim he was using is scorching and burning a bit with heavy loads - but it still loads easily with a starter without building up fouling. This makes me wonder just how loose a combination has to be to allow thumb starts? Yikes.
Some guys only want to only use their thumb for loading, and push the patched ball down a clean bore with not much more pressure than the weight of the rod. That's just fine if that's what you want. The math provided will give a combination that provides the best accuracy - with the proper powder charge for that load.
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I use a .490 ball (store bought Hornady) and have settled on a denim patch that measures out at .025" the way I twist the mic.
I would have not thought it would have been a suitable patch thickness just trying a piece over the bore with a ball on it. Seems way too thick but after it's lubed, the patch is very pliable if that's the right word.
I use 50/50 crisco & bore butter as a lube. I'm not shy about the amount that goes onto the patch as long as I work it into the cloth well. I pre-cut the patches 1 1/8" sq with a box cutter razor.
It takes a short starter to load, but ramming is easy. No cleaning between shots ever. I've fired up to 35 shots in one session w/o cleaning and could have kept going.
I use an easy charge of 65gr FFG for nice accuracy out to 100m.
I don't hunt,,just targets.
I started out w/ thinner patch material,,different materials like flannel, even cut patches from the stack of canvas shot bags I have. I tried double patching, all sorts of combinations.
The flannel was nice,,I could thumb load and accuracy at times was good. But it couldn't be counted on. No consistancy. Same with the other slightly thicker and different materials/weave I tried.
The thicker denim patch finally tightened up the group and elliminated the occasional flyers I was having with most any combination.
BTW the lead shot bag material is too loosely woven. It shreds apart upon firing (or maybe loading)often and shots go off on their own.
Too bad, It was about the right thickness.
Just my experiences with my F/L w/ Colerain 50cal bbl
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I shoot a 44" .50 Colerain barreled rifle and use a .490 ball and .015 patch--I found .02 patch too tough to load--however I see there are some that go even larger! More power to them if they can load it. I have to use a short starter with my thinner patch. My barrel is the swamped one with round groove rifling. Perhaps if I coned the muzzle it would accept a thicker patch--actually I did try to relieve the bore a bit but have not had time to test the results! The builder of my rifle recommended that combo and he wins matches with it. I like the Colerain and it shoots good.
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This is loading a:
Hatched Jack - .020" patch and .600" ball in a choked 20gauge smoothbore.
Me in parka - .445" ball and .0215" patch in .45 GM barrel with .010" rilfing - with deeper, rounded rifling, I'd be using a thicker patch, which is not difficult to load. I've since changed to a railroad mattress ticking patch that runs .023" for my mic and .025" in the calipers. It loads identically. If you ar ehaving difficulty getting a patch ball started, your crown is too sharp- smothing the machine cut angle corners, will help immensly in getting a ball started. Note- I used the stud on the starter's knob to get the patched ball started into the muzzle,then the long shaft to put it down 5 or 6". From there, it loads easily. This rifle will put 4 consecutive shots into 1/2" and less, at 50 yards off a rest. I call this easy loading.
I know many here have seen this and are tired of it- so am I, but it does show quite graphically how easy a thick patch and ball only .005" under bore size is to load - if the crown is nicley smothed and radiused.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fth_Movie-LoadingandShooting.jpg&hash=b91628ccb7e80ca5dc145e7bc43129e0a72d0c45) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/?action=view¤t=Movie-LoadingandShooting.mp4)
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Lymna's old "Black Powder Handbook" sums up ball fit very well and makes it easy to understant. This is exactly what Taylor was talking about. Use a strip of cloth, and seat a ball down into the bore leaving enough to grab to withdraw the ball from the muzzle. Look at the ball for marks, not only from the lands, but the bottoms of the grooves as well. If both mark, then you have a better chance of your combination being accurate, than if the ball looks like the one on the left.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPB222271.jpg&hash=4372333f7f2fd6aba182e11afdefd9cb3f456e15)
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All I'll say is I lik'm tight. ;)
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I think the advice of a thick patch for Colerains is good advice. I recently tested my first Colerain which is a .40 cal and according to the company, has .012 groove depth. I used an aperature rear sight and a globe front and shot 10 shot groups off the bench at 100yards. I shot .395's from an RCBS double cavity with patch cloths ranging from .012 up to .026. Seven different cloths in all. Long story short, I ended up finding that the cloth I mic at .020 shoots best in this gun. The old thick pillow ticking is what it is. Using a micrometer with a ratchet knob on it, it mics .020 and with a dial caliper, it'll mic about .024 or .025
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All I'll say is I lik'm tight. ;)
Me too I shoot a .490 with a .24 pillow ticking patch in my .12 GM Barrel I have shot a .495 in it. No problems loading either one , the only reason I stay with .490 is that I have 400 rds already cast up and don't want to remelt and make .495's, plus the deer I shot this year with the .490 piled up after about 40 yards ;D I might go to the .495 after shooting up the .490's we'll have to see.