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General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: longhunter2 on March 13, 2012, 07:19:44 PM

Title: Bogle Rifles
Post by: longhunter2 on March 13, 2012, 07:19:44 PM
Can anyone advise me on a good source for information and photos regarding the gunmaker Joseph Bogle, or any other makers who may have produced rifles of a similar time period and structure. I've seen photos of Gillespie and Bean rifles as examples of southern mountain rifles, but they were not made as early as Bogle, correct? I am starting a rifle that I intend to be of that same school, an early southern rifle. Any help would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: mr. no gold on March 13, 2012, 07:43:47 PM
You would do well to get in touch with Shelby Gallien, Mel Hankla, Earl Lanning, or any of the House Brothers. They are the mainline experts as far as I know on the grand Kentucky guns and their makers.
Dick
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Hurricane ( of Virginia) on March 13, 2012, 07:44:37 PM
There is a signed Jos Bogle rifle in our Museum.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11592.0

Hurricane
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: rich pierce on March 13, 2012, 10:36:43 PM
And a fine rifle it is.  It's got "it" in spades for me.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on March 14, 2012, 03:51:06 AM
Joseph Bogle, Jr., died in Blount County, Tennessee on April 1, 1811 (or 1814).   The inventory for his estate shows that one rifle gun, including a shot bag, was sold to Andrew Caswell for $15.00.  The estate also included four slaves:  a woman, one boy and two girls.  It appears that Bogle earned his living primarily as a farmer.  He may have instructed his nephew and namesake, Joseph Bogle (1778-1853) in the gunsmith trade and himself retired from gunmaking some years before his death.   

Andrew Caswell is my 5th great grandfather.
I believe he lived on Boyd's Creek in Sevier County, TN.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 14, 2012, 06:09:46 AM
Longhunter 2, to see such rifles up close, you should consider coming to the Tennessee Kentucky Rifle Show on April 20-21.  See the announcements forum or email me for more information. 
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 14, 2012, 04:39:23 PM
The current Joe Bogle with his great, great(forgot how may greats) grandfathers rifle at the Norris show.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/beck%20rifle/joeandtheboglerifle.jpg)

Joe has built a couple of "Bogle" rifles since the show. There is a complete drawing available that was copied from the Bogle rifle, the drawing is not called the "Bogle" rifle. Joe has the drawing, I will check with him to see what is is listed under and where he got it. 
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: coutios on March 14, 2012, 05:25:01 PM
Head over to  kentuckylongrifles.com    Great photos of a Bogle rifle plus many others......

Regards
Dave
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 14, 2012, 10:14:14 PM
I called Joe, he said the Virginia rifle drawing from the Log Cabin shop is very close to the Bogle rifle.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 14, 2012, 11:36:58 PM
If I am not mistaken, that "Virginia" rifle drawing was actually done from the Bogle rifle before research showed that Joseph Bogle worked in Tennessee from the mid 1780s on.  So it would be a very good drawing to use to build a "Bogle rifle."
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on March 15, 2012, 03:59:25 PM
Wayne - you are correct - the Bogle rifle is the rifle that Ron Borron did the drawing of and Myron copied the hardware for.  There are strong characteristics shared with some Virginia work - John Davidson in particular.  There are actually two versions of the drawing floating around - Ron's first one has the original lock and the original drop in the buttstock.  I believe he did a second version of the drawing with a Durs Egg lock and a little less drop to update the plans a bit to suit modern builders/shooters.   However, in the times I have handled the original I never noticed that it was difficult to shoulder - seemed like it held really well actually.

Myron always said that he regretted not copying the triggers for that rifle - they are very unique.

Jerry Noble's Volume 3 (I think) shows at least one - maybe two - other Bogle attributed rifles.  Wayne - correct me if I am wrong, as I am not positive if these are attributed to the same Jos Bogle maker of the McTeer rifle, or the later nephew.  I also know of one other in a private collection.  All have similar architecture and mounts.  Bogle died in 1811, and there is little evidence that he was making rifles in the latter years of his life, so that puts a firm end date on his rifles and suggests that the rifles we have to examine might date as early as the 1790s.  

Some other early Tennessee rifles with a similar early feel include some of the early work of John Bull - such as the "John Bull for Isaac Guess rifle; or the Stephen Crain rilfe, also retains a similar early feel. As does this rifle (not necessarily from TN - Virginia and North Carolina have also nbeen suggested):

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14832.0

The Bogle rifle does predate surviving examples of what most think of as the classic Tennessee “Bean” style rifles referred to  referred to in the first post.   In addition to timeframes, we need to keep in mind that the Bean rifles were from a slightly different area of the Tennessee mountains - up in the corner closer to where TN/ VA and NC meet, whereas Bogle worked over on the west side of the Smokies - more than 50 miles southwest of the "upper east Tennessee area.

Russell Bean appears to have been working in East Tennessee by the late 1780s - by the time Joseph Bogle arrived in what is now Blount County.  What Russell’s rifles made in that era looked like we do not know.  So we really don't know how early the characteristics of the "Bean" style mountain rifle started to appear.   It is tempting to assume that there was a clean orderly evolution from the more “conventional” looking rifles - like the Bogle -  that exhibit characteristics traceable to the documented gunmaking styles brought in from east of the mountains - to the later, more highly stylized rifles we associate with the Bean family and other moutain gunsmiths.  While it is possible that pieces like the Bogle rifle reflect a first stage in the transition from the eastern styles brought into the region in the 18th century toward what we think of as the later mountain rifle, we should also consider the possibility that the Beans and other early mountain gunmakers might have already established the beginnings of a general style that was evolving in parallel to, and separate from the general styles we see on guns from the more well documeted gunmaking areas in the 1780s – rather than directly from them.  So it is possible that even some of the early gunmakers like Joseph Bogle were influenced by a growing local gunsmith style and customer preference that was already there when they arrived, and adapted their work to suit.

GM
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 16, 2012, 06:21:27 AM
Guy, as always, you are right on.  In my opinion, one or more of the "other" rifles attributed to Joseph Bogle were probably made by his nephew, Joseph.  I think the early Jos. Bogle rifle shows very much of Virginia influence, which leads me to believe that it was made within a few years after Bogle left Virginia and moved to Tennessee (the mid 1780s). As you point out, he died in 1811 so he may have made rifles in Tennessee for 20 years, if that.

You are quite right that the classic East Tennessee rifles were made east of where Bogle worked and may have evolved from a different tradition than Bogle and other early rifles made to the west of the Smokies.  I wonder if the classic long, slender "Bean" type mountain rifle owes more to the English style, perhaps were influenced by early imports into the Carolinas, as opposed to the Germanic tradition which came out of Pennsylvania down the Valley of Virginia (and which tradition may have influenced Bogle).  The foregoing speculation and two dollars won't even buy a decent cup of coffee today.   :)
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: longhunter2 on March 16, 2012, 11:41:46 AM
Eric, you mentioned drawings from the Log Cabin shop. Their website lists two separate Southern Originals print sets, the Southern Mountain Flint Rifle set, and the Hershel House Virginia Rifle print. Do you have any idea which set contains the drawings that Joe would be referring to? Also, am I mistaken in my understanding here, but did WElliot suggest that Bogle may have had a Germanic influence? And lastly, are there any good sources out there that might outline the differences between various styles that came from Virginia, Tennessee, and other southern localities and their influence?
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on March 16, 2012, 03:21:45 PM
The print of the Bogle rifle is in the "Southern Originals" set.  There are actually 3 sets of those - I think the Bogle is in Set 1(?)  It is, as discussed, described as an early Virginia pattern, but is in fact teh Bogle rifle that appears on this website in the virtual museum.  The House pattern is a drawing of one of Hershel House's contemporary rifles made in the 1980s.

There is a lot of information out there on the various southern longrifle styles - what is hard to find is an overview that sorts things out over a wide range of timeframes and areas  - as we often tend to use the term "southern" sort of generically and it can cover dozens of regions and a 150 year span. There are a number of good examples in the virtual museum - which is nice because it is free - but if you are just delving into the topic it helps to have a little guidance.  PM me or one of the other folks on here and we can help get you started. 

As a start, here are some suggestions on books:

Rifles of Colonial America Volume II (Shumway) - has some early southern rifles from the pre-1800 era.
 
North Carolina Schools of Longrifles (Ivey) - has hundreds of rifles made in the North Carolina Piedmont and Mountains, including lots of iron mounted guns

Jerry Nobles Notes on Southern Longrifles (Volumes 1-4), I would recommend Volumes 1 and 2

Wayne Elliot's "Gunamkers of Georgia"

Dennis Glazener's "The Gillespie Gunamkers of East Fork North Carolina"

Dr. James Whisker's books "Gunmakers of Virginia", and "Longrifles of Virginia"

There are more - and as I said, lots of good ones that are not in many of the books are shown in the Virtual Museum here.

Good luck
Guy
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 16, 2012, 05:29:30 PM
longhunter2, I was merely musing about the influence on the Germanic vs. English traditions on Southern guns.  My intent is merely to encourage the consideration of geographic and migratory patterns which may give some clue to influence of earlier traditions.  It makes sense to me that gunsmiths who migrated into the South during the developing period (such as Bogle and other Revolutionary veterans who settled in East Tennessee immediately after the War) brought with them the traditions which they had been trained in.  Their early work in their new locale, assuming they were working independently of another's shop, surely showed that influence. After some years in the new locale, they may well have adapted their style to find favor with local customers.  So gunsmiths who migrated into Tennessee from the Carolinas would have brought with them a different tradition and style than those who migrated down from Pennsylvania and Virginia.  As the two influenced the other and were both influenced by local customer demand, unique local architecture and furniture began to emerge. 
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: longhunter2 on March 17, 2012, 12:46:04 PM
Just out of curiousity: Any idea how many known Bogle rifles still exist today? I've also noticed that he produced rifles with both the spade-shaped patchbox and the banana style. Any thoughts on what reason one patchbox might be more appropriate to use than the other?
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 17, 2012, 04:55:58 PM
The only rifle extant that we can say with certainty was produced by Joseph Bogle (Jr.) (b. Penna. 1759, died TN 1811), is the signed rifle you will see in the ALR Library.  I have seen one unsigned rifle which may be by him, and it has the spade-type patchbox.  The different style patchboxes are not a matter of being "appropriate", but a matter of style. Either lid simply covers a cavity in the stock intended to hold greased patches and, sometimes, an extra flint or a jag. 
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: longcruise on March 20, 2012, 02:44:45 AM
There is this one on American Historic Services   http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/jos_bogle.html

I'm certainly not qualified to say whether it is an actual Bogle.  Maybe the same one that is in the ALR museum??
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 20, 2012, 05:27:34 AM
Longcruise, the rifle pictured on American Historic Services and in the ALR Library, are the same rifle.  The only known, signed Jos. Bogle. 
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: longhunter2 on March 20, 2012, 05:23:41 PM
Is the Bogle held in a museum somewhere for public viewing, or is it part of someone's private collection? On a side note, unfortunately, I was looking at the stock, barrel, and other hardware that I had bought at Friendship for this project. At the time I was putting it all together, I didn't realize that I was planning for a rifle in the wrong time period that I was looking for. I bought a walnut southern mountain stock from pecatonica, and realized that the narrow, sweeping shape of the butt was not the Bogle style I was looking for, but rather a much later design. I found the trigger guard and trigger assembly to be a "classic" southern look, not unlike the Bean or Soddy-Daisy schools. Although, the lock seems to be correct for a "Bogle." Any advise on where to go from here? Should I continue to recreate what many call the "classic" southern rifle and do it right the next time, or perhaps attempt to make the rifle into somewhat of a evolution from the Virginia style to the Tennessee with hardware from both eras? That's what I get for not doing my research.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on March 20, 2012, 08:27:03 PM
The Bogle rifle retains strong ties in its architecture and mounts to earlier guns made east of the mountains, prior to about 1810.

The Pecatonica southern mountain style would be more suited to a rifle of the 1820-40 timeframe.  You can still made a good looking rifle from it, just subtantially different feel from the Bogle rifle.

If it were me, I would sort of do one or the other, but that is just preference.  The one thing you can say about the mountain rifles is that no two are exactly alike, and some makers retained early forms of hardware on later guns.  But if I really wanted to build a Bogle style rifle I would start with pattern with a straight comb and toe.  Some of the Golden Age era Lancaster and Maryland stock patterns are actually pretty close.  For example, I have a Knob Mountain Fordney pattern stock that I am going to use for a Bogle style rifle soon.  

Myron Carlson made hardware copied from the Bogle rifle but he passed away several years ago. You could make the hardware, or there are some here on this board who will forge hardware.  Or if you want to, go with steel castings (keep in mind that in that era the hardware would have been formed by forging and joining multiple (usually) pieces, rather than cast.  That being said, that big massive "Early Virginia" cast guard that many of the suppliers sell has about the same bow and grip rail size  as the guard on the original Bogle, you would just need to do some filing to slim the finials and thin the metal down to be closer to the original, and if you could heat and do some bending ot put more curve in the grip rail.  

The Bogle is not on display in any museum but has been on display at the CLA show in Lexington, and at the Norris Tennessee show, many times.  These shows are the best places I have found to view original rifles.

Guy
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Dennis Glazener on March 20, 2012, 08:36:25 PM
Quote
These shows are the best places I have found to view original rifles.
Guy is correct about viewing original rifles at these shows and there is one coming up here in VA March 31-April 1, 2012. We won't see the Bogle rifle but last year we had the Kleete rifle and lots of other early rifles.

We will be having a special display "Fine Iron in Virginia" which will have some nice early iron mounted flintlocks from Virginia. Several of these rifles are shown in some of the Virginia books but most have not been displayed in recent years. There also will be another great display of Virginia Rifles and Wallace Gusler will have a display of Indian artifacts that I know you would enjoy seeing.

More information here :http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=17291.0 all ALR members are invited to attend the show.

Almost forgot, The new Pennsylvania “Horns of the Trade” - Screw-tip Powder Horns and Their Architecture, by Arthur J. DeCamp will be on sale (save shipping costs) ( http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20507.0 ) will be available for sale at this show.

Dennis
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: longhunter2 on March 23, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Is anyone familiar enough with Pecatonica to advise which of their stocks would be better suited for a Bogle-esque inspiration?
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on March 23, 2012, 05:56:01 PM
The original has a signficant amount of drop and unlike many later Tennessee rifles it has a fairly long wrist section.  

For a stock pattern, it depends on how wide you want to make the butt, how much drop you want and how much wood you want to remove.  The dimensions of the original are posted in the virtual museum and you can compare them to those on Pecatonica's site.  

If it were me I would consider  their J Armstrong (although a bit narrower in the butt than the original) or their North Carolina pattern.  You can see the profiles of these  stocks on their website and compare them to the photos in the virtual museum.  Go with one that has enough wood to allow you to remove some and shape appropriate.  Consider the shape and position of the cheekpiece too.  You will want to inlet your own lock and hardware unless they can do inletting for an appropriate English style lock - I would not want to use the earlier Germanic Siler style lock for this type of rifle.  Nothing against Silers -great locks - but they are very different from the style on this original.

If you are not making your own hardware, the buttplate will be a tough match.  It has a fairly pronounced heel and is a it wider and taller than the later Tennessee style castings that are out there.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 24, 2012, 04:15:56 PM
The current Joe Bogle is forging his own furniture and doing a mighty fine job of it considering he started with a homemade BBQ grill forge, a piece of railroad track and a pile of scrap metal 2 years ago.
 
Joe has made 3 or 4 Bogle rifles in the past two years, both flint and percussion. Pretty sure David Keck precarved Joe's last rifle so he may have a pattern that is pretty close.

Here is a picture of Joe's first "Bogle" rifle that shows the mounts he forged.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/beck%20rifle/newboglecheekside.jpg)
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: tom patton on March 26, 2012, 03:59:36 AM
Longcruise, the rifle pictured on American Historic Services and in the ALR Library, are the same rifle.  The only known, signed Jos. Bogle. 

I respectfully beg to differ.I bought three rifles from a family in East Tennessee.One of them was the Jos. Bogle rifle we are discussing here and another was a slightly later and lighter gun with a banana box. This gun went to Robin Hale and as I had done  he sent it to Allan Gutchess for reconversion. As I recall Allen called Robin and told him that he thought the banana box gun was faintly signed  Bogle in script.The third gun was a William Kellar rifle. Then there is the Bogle/Bull rifle made by Joseph Bogle the younger the nephew of the older Joseph Bogle using a John  Bull barrel and probably other salvaged mounts. This Bull barrel was dated 1816 which is later than the date Joseph the elder died.
I had a client {now deceased} who had a very nice rifle made in the same area in which  the Bogles and Kellars worked. It had the same nice forestock molding as is found on the Kellar rifles and at least the earlier Bogle rifle and very plain but nice architecture. It was signed in script A E B.I  could never associate these initials with the Bogle family.I probably ought to go make the heir an offer on that gun sometime.
I hope this helps
Tom Patton




Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on March 26, 2012, 05:39:44 AM
Tom, to your knowledge then, there is one early Jos. Bogle for sure (the signed one that you turned up) and, possibly, a later rifle with a banana box that Allen Gutchess thought bore Jos. Bogle signature?  Is that correct?  I agree with you that the Bogle/Bull rifle could not be by the elder Joseph.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: tom patton on March 29, 2012, 07:19:05 PM
Wayne,It has been a long time since I bought those rifles out of that Blount County house. I sold the banana box gun to Robin and we   {Robin and I} sent the Bogles to Alan Gutchess for reconversion to flint. As I recall Robin called me and said that Alan had called him and said that the banana box gun was faintly signed in script by Joseph {J ?} Bogle. Robin sold it to Jerry Noble who still has it.Both Robin and I always felt that the gun was made by Joseph the elder rather than his nephew Joseph the younger son of Andrew Bogle.At that time the only gun we could safely attribute to the younger Joseph Bogle was the Bogle/Bull rifle with a John Bull barrel dated 1816.We felt that the banana box gun was was a lot closer in architecture and overall feel to the gun in question here.I have never seen a signed rifle by Joseph the younger and I have thought that his shop and tools may have wound up going to William Kellar.As I said I know of a slim graceful rifle with fine lower forestock molding {a feature peculiar to the Bogles and Kellars}. That gun is signed in script,A E B but I cannot connect these initials to the Bogle family.For all of the above and the fact that both guns came from the same family I am inclined to believe that they were made by the same hand.Incidentally I once saw a document signed bt Joseph the elder about 1810+/- and the signature was extremely shaky indicating very poor health.
Tom Patton



i

Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Number19 on June 24, 2012, 07:14:37 AM
...We will be having a special display "Fine Iron in Virginia" which will have some nice early iron mounted flintlocks from Virginia. Several of these rifles are shown in some of the Virginia books but most have not been displayed in recent years. There also will be another great display of Virginia Rifles...
Early iron mounted Virginia rifles are a particular interest to me. Unfortunately, being from the Houston area, I can't make these exhibits over in your part of the country. Has this exhibit taken place yet and is there a CD; or can you point me to other resources or publications?

Concerning the Bogle rifle, in other discussions I've had, the argument was made that this rifle was made in Tennessee. I find it likely that the rifle was made in Rockbridge County sometime between 1782 and 1784, for Robert McTeer, prior to, and in preparation for, his move to the western, Indian, territory. What are the latest thoughts on this subject? Thanks.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on June 25, 2012, 11:27:13 PM
Dating early iron mounted guns is difficult because we don't have a lot of signed examples by documented makers in the 18th century for comparison, so this is just my opinion, but the lock and architecture on this gun seem a bit later than the early 1780s, and I think manufacture after Joseph Bogle moved to Tennessee is more likely. 

Guy

Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Number19 on June 27, 2012, 06:18:27 AM
Thank you for your reply. I'm still new at this and still teaching myself to "look" at a rifle.

I see nothing about the architecture that would exclude a Virginia manufacture - except the lock. What else can you point me to?

Let me ask, also, what is a really good resource book, cost no object, to learn more about the locks, and their dates of manufacture & use, used on 18th century flintlocks?

The lock on the Bogle rifle bears a near identical resemblance to a John Bailes lock, although it is described as being marked as a Ketland. It certainly has the look of a quality British manufacture. Is it marked on the back side?

I need a good resource for the study of locks; as best as I could find on the internet, is this, on the Bailes lock: "...After about 1780 this improved style of lock is found on American guns, having been smuggled here from England in quantity."

The idea that the Bogle rifle is of Tennessee origin is certainly the more prevalent viewpoint. In fact, I don't recall anyone arguing for Virginia. But every time someone brings up a relevant point, such as the lock (and this is the first time I've looked into the lock, in depth) my research doesn't discount a Virginia origin. Bogle was in Rockbridge from 1782, after returning from the war, until, at least, 1784, when he may have left for Tennessee with McTeer. He had established himself sufficently in his new residence to marry Margaret Houston, cousin to General Sam Houston, on January 3, 1786, so a 1784 departure is quite probable. The Houstons were also quite a large clan in Rockbridge County and were probably part of the contingent which left for Tennessee in 1784, although it's possible the men could have gone ahead, first, to build the fort and then returned for the women. Margaret was 22 in 1786.

Unless some genealogical research turns up something, this question will probably never be answered. My argument is based, in part, on the fact that, before families migrated to new homes in the wilderness, experienced men such as Captain McTeer and gunmaker Joseph Bogle, who served together in the war, would have made sound preparations, one of which would have been to arm themselves with good rifles.

Another point which I considered is that brass was not manufactured in America until after 1800. In the 1782 to 1784 time frame, trade between the United States and England was just barely beginning to return to normal, and brass may have been in short supply in Rockbridge County, although Bogle did get his hands on a quality lock - possibly an earlier, smuggled lock.

In Gunsmiths of Virginia, p. 152, there is a rifle attributed to the Henry Spitzer shop which is remarkably similar to the Bogle rifle. But Spitzer did not arrive in Rockbridge County until 1795. What this means to me is that the architecture of this Rockbridge, or Valley, or Bogle, "school" was developed before Bogle left for Virginia, so it predates the "Golden Age" period. So, referring to your post of March 15th, I would surmise that the Bogle rifle is "pure" Virginia and without any Tennessee influence.

I have a question. If Bogle made this rifle in Tennessee, how prevalent was this superior quality British lock on the western frontier in the late 80's or early 90's? I have to ask this because I haven't studied Tennessee rifles at all. Referring to the post of Feb 20th, the lock on this rifle appears similar, but it is not. Look at the angle of the jaws in relation to the pan. The superior Bailes style lock has the jaws angled directly into the pan for faster and better ignition. The Spitzer gun seems to have this same superior quality lock.

Anyways, this is how my reasoning has evolved on this topic. Thanks for hearing (reading?) me out.

And thanks to Mr Glazener for the images you sent along to me.

George
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on June 27, 2012, 03:50:04 PM
George - unfortunately I don't know of a good reference book on English lock styles and timeframes.  Gary Brumfield has some good information on his website.  I am not an expert, but I will offer this - unfortunately some of the catalogs and parts suppliers have confused the dating of locks a bit by lumping the period of usage all of these late English style locks into the same context.  Again, this is just from my observations so I am hoping others may be able to add more, but a lock styled like the one you see on the Bogle might have been in use by the 1780s on higher end English sporting guns, but they do not seem to be found on surviving examples of known and documented American rifles (documeted to makers, times and places) quite that early.  The concept that southern longrifles used the best quality English locks is also an area where the catalogs have muddied the water a bit, as often the export locks were somewhat stripped down versions of their higher end cousins - they were shaped like the better locks on the outside, but often less refined or detailed on the internals - unbridled tumblers, etc. even very late into the flint period.  Not always, but often.  So locks that "looked" like high grade English locks were fairly ubiquitous on southern longrifles from many areas in the post-1790 era - regardless of whehter they were made in Rockbridge County or deep in the mountains.   That is, I don't think the English style locks being imported and used east of the mountains were typically any better grade than the ones making their way down to the mountain area gunsmiths in the 1790s.

 I would love it if we find that the Bogle rifle or guns looking much like it were made in the early 1780s.  We have to keep in mind that perhaps this was not the rifle that McTeer carried to Tennessee in the 1780s.  I would suspect that McTeer already  knew, used and owned rifles and if it were me I would want to be carrying a weapon I was familiar with before heading out into the frontier.   So perhaps Bogle, or Davidson, or someone else had made him a different rifle earlier and that after getting to Tennessee  - 5 years or 10 years later he wanted or needed another and his old trusted gunmaker made him another after absorbing some local influence in his gunmaking style.  I do suspect that there are some iron mounted rifles out there that have been dated too late - especially since we really don't know how early some of the features currently viewed as "late" on Appalachian rifles - narrower curved butts, etc.  - were coming into favor.   When you start thinking about proportions and efficiency of use of materials, reducing the scale of the hardware and eliminating unnecessary features makes a lot of sense - especially in the early era before local iron production started to really take off in the southern Appalachians.   We know there were gunsmiths working in what is now east Tennessee 10-15 years before Bogle arrived so hopefully some of their products will come to light someday.  

With regard to architecture – I agree there is a lot of Rockbridge in the Bogle rifle – look at John Davidson’s work from the 1780-1800 era and you see strong similarities.  There is little in the architecture of the Bogle that is similar to the later Tennessee forms that you see  - but those examples generally are post-1820 and we really don’t have a good feel for whether or not there was even a definitive East Tennessee style that existed in the timeframe Bogle moved there, and thus I would suspect that a rifle made shortly after he arrived in Tennessee would tend to still follow the architectural style of where he worked prior.   In addition, Bogle worked a good distance south and west from the region we most strongly associate with “Tennessee” rifles – upper East Tennessee where the Beans were working by the early 1790s  - and in those days a few of those big Appalachian ridges in between could have meant a pretty significant degree of isolation.  So I guess I would not expect to see much of what we think of as a Tennessee style in Bogle’s work even if one existed at the time Bogle moved into what is now Tennessee.  

I do suspect that iron mounts were being made in the region in that timeframe and were probably a frequent local style choice south and west of Rockbridge and from the Carolina Piedmont westward – often driven by efficiency of production and efficient production may have been why a gunsmith in the deep backcountry would chose to use them.  However I agree we should not assume that their use on the Bogle rifle necessarily has anything to do with this being a Tennessee gun vs. a Virginia made gun. As early as the 1750s there are descriptions of Rockbridge gunmakers who were gunsmiths and blacksmiths and could easily have produced both types of rifles and I suspect even those casting brass mounts may have made forged iron masters for their casting molds.

Fun stuff to think about and I could be wrong on all this stuff, but it is just my opinion.  There are others on here who know much more about English locks and the Bogle rifle than me.

Guy
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: B.Barker on June 27, 2012, 05:15:32 PM
In an earlier post it was noted that the lock was reconverted. So we can't always go by what the lock looks like now. Many of the old guns we see have had their locks reconverted or replaced. Some, as this one were done well and some were not. So be careful on dating rifles by the lock you see now.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: rich pierce on June 27, 2012, 05:20:05 PM
Following the logic that a rifle can't be earlier than the latest stylistic motif or component on it, the main feature that dates the Bogle rifle (pictured on the American Historical Services website) later than the early 1780's for me is the deep crescent buttplate and the narrow buttstock.  If it is from the early 1780's it is (to me) the earliest known rifle with that deep a crescent buttplate and that narrow a buttstock.  I know we like to be cautious when comparing rifles from different regions, but the majority of conservatively dated 1780's American rifles have a gently curved buttplate with a width of 1 and 3/4" to 1 and 7/8".  The deeply curved, narrow buttplate is generally a post-1800 phenomenon.  I'd be interested in seeing another rifle that is by consensus from the 1780's or 1790's with a similar buttplate.
Lacking that, if we date this rifle to the early 1780's I'd have to conclude that Bogle was way ahead of his time, and that buttplate style is not generally representative of rifles made then.  Nonetheless it's a terrific rifle with outstanding architecture.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on June 27, 2012, 05:37:41 PM
 I think perhaps we are confuisng which of the attributed Bogles' we are discssing with regard to reconversion(?)- perhaps Wayne can clarify - I have seen discussions about this rifle over the years that seem to imply (1) the lock was broken and the gun put up and and never converted to percussion, and other than being restored to working order it  never actually required reconversion OR  (2) other discussions that imply the lock was reconverted.  In conversations I have had with people familiar with the rifle at gunshows, I have thought that the first case was correct - that it was broken but never converted.  

Again, my thoughts could be all wrong  - maybe this gun is earlier and could jsut have had a very atypical lock for an American rifle of the early 1780s as well as an atypical butt width and sideplate design - but again we are talking about an American backcountry rifle-  not a London or Baltimore or Philadelphia pistol   - and I still suspect that it was made after Bogle got to Tennessee and post 1790.  Not necessarily much later than that - it would not surprise me for this to be an early 1790s rifle but it does not look like something I would expect to see from the early 1780s before his move to Tennessee.


Guy
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: B.Barker on June 27, 2012, 07:45:52 PM
Guy I was just reading what Tom had posted about the rifle. I will try to contact Alan and see if he remembers or not about the work he did. I am with you about the rifle being post 1790. I just remember Alan telling me to be careful about locks that are on rifles when looking at photo's. Because some have been replaced, some long ago and some have been reconverted. And you can't always tell in photo's like black and whites, small or poorly focused ones. I always try to date a rifle from other features.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: G-Man on June 27, 2012, 08:12:00 PM
Brian - you are absolutely right on the locks - there are an awful lot of of antique rifles out there that were reconverted with Siler parts, and likewise quite a few that were converted with incorrect antique parts - back in the day.  So often what we see has age and patina on it but sadly is not what was there originally.  Not necessarily inconsistent with what was likely on there originally  but  in some cases they are.  

That being said, I have always been under the impression that the Bogle rifle lock was original flint that had been broken and that was the likely reason it was well preserved. But I could have misunderstood.  

Guy
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Collector on June 27, 2012, 10:02:18 PM
As I recall, the lock on this rifle had a broken mainspring, a condition Tom Patton attributed to it's survival, in original, untouched condition. 

When Tom Patton introduced this longrifle, on this forum, he provided extensive information about it's location and it's condition, at the time of purchase.

That said, I don't believe that there are any mysteries surrounding or issues to be found with the lock on this piece.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: RifleResearcher on June 28, 2012, 09:34:25 PM
I just noticed this thread and thought I could clarify a couple of items.  Tom's memory of the Bogle situation is pretty much the same as mine.  I reconverted the spade finial rifle.  I have seen mention over the years that it is in "original" flintlock condition, but it is my work from the early 80's, based on the evidence left on the plate and a survey of English locks with similar plates.  (I would put a different cock on it today.)I do believe that it is the only lockplate that was ever in that gun, and I also believed it dated to around 1800-1810.  The quality was such that I thought maybe it had even been recycled from a better grade of English pistol or fowler.  It is not the typical export grade or style of lock more commonly used at that time.  While I had both rifles side by side, (the later one had a heavily rusted barrel), but I believed that the few engraving strokes visible at that time matched pretty much stroke for stroke with the Bogle signature on the earlier rifle.  I don't know if anyone has compared them that way in more recent years, but it is my 30 year old memory of the situation.  I may have archived away somewhere some pre-restoration photos of the guns.  If I do, I will try and confirm those thoughts.
Alan
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: nosrettap1958 on June 29, 2012, 06:54:02 PM
So how many signed Joseph Bogle Jr. rifles do we have now, two or three?  
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Number19 on June 29, 2012, 08:10:03 PM
... I reconverted the spade finial rifle.  I have seen mention over the years that it is in "original" flintlock condition, but it is my work from the early 80's, based on the evidence left on the plate and a survey of English locks with similar plates.  (I would put a different cock on it today.)I do believe that it is the only lockplate that was ever in that gun, and I also believed it dated to around 1800-1810.  The quality was such that I thought maybe it had even been recycled from a better grade of English pistol or fowler.  It is not the typical export grade or style of lock more commonly used at that time...
Some great information in this thread. Would someone explain converting a flintlock to percussion and reconverting back to flintlock? Is the entire mechanism replaced, or is the original plate reused? Specifically, is the current plate on the Bogle thought to be original or is it a replacement? I interpret the text as implying the plate is original, but I don't want to be wrong on this. Thanks.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: RifleResearcher on June 30, 2012, 08:47:40 AM
19,
The lockplate in the spade finial Bogle had every appearance of being the only lock that had ever been in the gun.  I used the evidence on the plate, style, hole placement, ghost of pan shape, etc., and comparison to similar locks in their original flintlock condition, to reconvert that lockplate back to an approximation of its flintlock self.  In answer to your larger question, yes, many guns when converted to percussion simply had their entire lockplate replaced with a new percussion lock.  In cases like that, many guns are "restored" by either having an antique lock, either original flint, or a reconverted plate, used to replace the percussion lock, or even a completely new flintlock, often done with castings made from antique locks, used for the same purpose.  This was not the case with the spade finial Bogle.  Again, it has been roughly 30 years, but I believe that was the only lock that had ever been that Bogle.
Alan
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: B.Barker on July 02, 2012, 09:05:20 PM
Thanks for the info Alan. Good seeing you a couple weeks ago also.
Brian
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Collector on July 12, 2012, 08:57:33 PM
An original and complete flintlock matching (?) the one on the Bogle longrifle?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160838333883&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123

BTW, 3 hours to go at auction for interested parties.

Without dimensions it's hard to tell, but this lock looks very, very close to the one on the Bogle longrifle with the spade shaped patchbox.  It's stamped 'MASLIN WARRANTED' forward of the frizzen spring.

The cock appears to be original to this lock and may contribute to the comment made by Alan (RifleReseacher) on the current cock on the Bogle longrifle.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/ga1757/JosBoglestylelock.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/ga1757/JosBoglestylelock_2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/ga1757/JosBoglestylelock_3.jpg)



Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: rich pierce on July 12, 2012, 09:34:43 PM
That lock looks post 1800 by a mile or two; I always thought the Maislin locks were 1820's and beyond.  In my eyes this one on ebay is not so similar to the lock on the Bogle rifle that interests me the most.  http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/jos_bogle.html 
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: Collector on July 12, 2012, 09:58:06 PM
Not researched and you're undoubtedly right about the dating of this lock.  I just viewed the overall shape of the plate, the tail, the pan and the frizzen as providing some indicators relative to the shape of the cock.  

This particular Maslin also has the front lock bolt hole filled and probably used only one lock bolt to secure it, definitely placing it at a later date.  mea maxima culpa.

And further to corrections to my previous postings on this topic: a.) the introduction of this piece was presented to ALR by Wayne T. Elliott and not Tom Patton and  b.) it was the sear that was broken and not the main spring, as previously noted.

My sincere apologies to Mr. Elliott and to the sear, as well.
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: JTR on July 12, 2012, 11:50:47 PM
I think that Maslin lock might well be an old Dixie Gunworks reproduction.

John
Title: Re: Bogle Rifles
Post by: WElliott on July 13, 2012, 03:27:43 AM
Several years ago when I was researching and writing an article for Gun Report on the early Jos. Bogle rifle (an excerpt from which article is referenced several times above), I relied in part on notes and oral history that were passed down to me.  Now, thanks to Alan's posting, it appears that the lock plate was original to the rifle, but that parts were added by Alan some 30 years ago.  All I can say is "well done" Alan.  I saw nothing in examining the rifle numerous times during the years it was in my collection that led me to doubt the information I had received.  I remain convinced that this rifle was made by Joseph Bogle (b. 1759, d. 1811 or 1814) after he moved into Tennessee, most likely during the early 1790s and that it was not made by his nephew, Joseph Bogle.  It is an important Southern rifle.