AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: Habu on May 14, 2012, 09:59:55 AM
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You know the ones I mean--buffalo horns with bone and horn/ebony inlays? I'm trying to gather more (OK, "any") information on them, including photos/locations/provenance of any existing specimens.
I know about the Clark horn, can anyone share the locations of others? I've been able to gather photos of only a few so far.
No firm dating yet (I've been unable to positively date the existence of any of them prior to the War of 1812, but don't know yet if that means anything).
I did manage to locate one maker, but I'm pretty sure he was not the primary producer. The samples I've seen of his work are not up to the workmanship of Clark's horn.
Thanks,
Jim
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Can you share that maker and his location?
tc
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I had a very nice one that I bought from Roy "Pa" Keeler at Friendship back in the 70,s. I have heard from reliable sources that Catlin decorated some of them for gifts.
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Wyoming Historical Society...1930s..
"Indian Loving Catlin and his Buffalo Powder Horn"
its an obscure work, but documents a St Louis style Catlin horn fairly well..
as described it looks much like ...if not exactly like this one.
http://alisonandtheprofessor.blogspot.com/2011/07/powder-horn-bucks-fawns-and-snake.html
tc
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At one of the last Great Western Gun and Knife Shows held at the Los Angeles Fair Grounds, a dealer had a fine buffalo powder horn. Condition was good and it had inlays of red pipestone, bone, and maybe pewter, although I am hazy on the latter. Possibly some other material inlaid as well. It was artistic and very well done. An attractive piece, for sure.
Fellow wanted a lot for it back then, $750, which I had, but didn't want to spend it. Lost track of the horn very quickly as the politicos put an end to the show, and now am doing the familiar 'self butt kicking' for not picking it up. A plate on the horn was inscribed "C. C."; could have stood for Christopher Carson. It was a fine enough horn for someone like him to own.
Dick
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A plate on the horn was inscribed "C. C."; could have stood for Christopher Carson.
Dick,
Being in CA, it more likely stood for Charlie Chaplin. ;)
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Christopher Columbus?
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Funny, funny!!! Today, everyone is a comedian. What will you all be tomorrow? Still wish I had bought the darn thing.
Dick
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Thanks guys. I'd not heard any suggestion that Catlin had decorated some of them. My first impression of the scrimshaw on the horn TC linked to--thanks TC!--is that it doesn't look like Catlin's hand (but then again, I've never seen any of his scrimshaw). As the blogger suggested, it could have come from the same shop as Clark's horn. I've had that paper from the Wyoming Historical Society on my watch list for some time, I'll have to work harder to get a copy now that I know what it covers.
After about ten years of semi-serious looking, I'm not ready to consider these horns as a "school"--there are some common characteristics, but the architecture is all over the map. Not all of them seem to have been made by professionals. Since they do share some common characteristics, I've been thinking of them as a "group."
Several years ago, I visited a small museum in MO. I asked the bluehair about horns, and she said while the museum had none, there were a couple in her family "but they had white dots so probably weren't what I was looking for!" Turns out her family had 2 horns that fit with the "group."
Both horns were made by a slave named Thomas (that was the only name she had for him). He worked in Missouri; she thought at least one of the horns was made in the St. Louis area but as the family also had business interests in St. Joe it might have been made there. That horn was associated with a shot pouch she was sure was also made by Thomas, and a St. Louis-made boy's rifle. If Thomas also made the shot pouch, he may have had some training as a leather worker.
The family also had another shot pouch and powder horn he made; the powder horn was made from a cow horn. It shared similar architecture, but without the inlays etc. She thought Thomas died in a cholera epidemic about 1850.
Edited to add: it looks like I can examine the Wyoming Historical Society paper on my next trip to town; don't waste time trying to get a copy of Sarton's 1934 paper of a similar name, it adds nothing to the subject.
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Was there one in that last Cowans auction? JIM
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There was, but a really strange one even for the St. Louis group--mother of pearl inlays, very high polish (though I guess the possibility exists that it was coated with something), scrimshawed with some unusual scenes, snake carved around the neck instead of the usual rings, flat/flush plug with 12 inlays and no pins in the plug, and a brass button instead of a bone button. It was from the Dressler collection, but didn't sell.
It struck me as very unusual, and I wasn't sure if it was modern or what.
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I know of another horn very much like the Cowan horn but with a bigger snake and red tented Indian scenes...VERRRRY high polish...LP
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From Art's blog:
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/04/early-american-buffalo-powder-horn.html
I think this is the one from the auction, (?)
Tim C.
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Tim-yeah, that's the same horn as at Cowan's. Louie, do you know any of the history on the other horn?
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Very little . It sold on eBay about five years {maybe more} ago ..The winner sold it to a collector in Ohio .. He kept it until about two years ago and traded it off..It too was similar to the Clark horn, yet very different.. In my view very over done ....Who was selling the Cowen horn ???............LP
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Thanks Louie. No history or ownership information on the horn at Cowan's beyond that it was out of the Dressler collection.
I just zoomed in on those pictures some more. It looks like the center button on the butt plug is horn, not brass. Cowan's dates the piece as "Early 19th century"--I'd like to know how you polish a buffalo horn in such a way that the polish lasts for 200 years . . . .
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This is one I photographed in the St. Louis Historical Society Museum about 25 years ago so please excuse the quality
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff327%2Fdryfork%2Fsc000097d3.jpg&hash=c08a411271622374bf60658f9f33ed9866ba3bb7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff327%2Fdryfork%2Fsc000056a2.jpg&hash=c5ababdd890f56dd2b195be5cae6254c89428bdd)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff327%2Fdryfork%2Fsc000178d4.jpg&hash=acdbe8ee7333b91f559543bd6a100dc01ad8cc30)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff327%2Fdryfork%2Fsc0001428d.jpg&hash=b82dd41f014268c5b52f638c0595921d6908e1ba)
it was the only one I saw there
The St. Louis historical society Museum is not the Arch it was at the Worlds Fair Park site
They also had the original Missouri River Boatmans shirt on display,several nice iron mounted southern rifles and a Gemmer cartridge conversion
Don't know if it still there
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That's a great horn Joe, thanks for posting it. There's a lot of information in those pics!
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Any theories on who made these unique horns? Or known details about the where and when etc?
tc
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photos of the horn that belonged to William Clark
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff327%2Fdryfork%2Fsc0000f1fa.jpg&hash=edbde0b095758280c6351baa10a9aac0da9561ba)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff327%2Fdryfork%2Fsc000119ad.jpg&hash=6dc3d8a146c78540278d88c5ade9a7ac06ced38a)
and that is all the information I have on this style
I would sure like to learn more about them and how common they were.
I had not heard about the Catlin connection before this post.
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Dang if they don't look classic art nouveau to me.
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Thanks for the pics Joe! There is an enlargable pic of Clark's horn at http://collections.mohistory.org/object/OBJ:1923+050+0030 (http://collections.mohistory.org/object/OBJ:1923+050+0030), but it only shows one view. Another photo at that site shows the Clark horn and a bunch of Clark's other souvenirs in a typical Victorian display at jefferson Kearney Clark's residence http://collections.mohistory.org/photo/PHO:21406 (http://collections.mohistory.org/photo/PHO:21406).
From what I've seen and the little available information on original owners, I suspect they were made as presentation horns or "for fancy" rather than for actual use--none of the ones I've seen seem to have been heavily used, and I suspect the glues used on the inlays wouldn't have held up with repeated exposure to the weather. The horns don't seem to show the degree of weathering we get when we actually use powder horns made from buffalo horns.
Construction details, and the tools and knowledge involved, suggest to me that they were all made by the same person, and that he may have been a gunsmith. Some of the details and materials used argue against it having been someone from one of the other trades who had the necessary knowledge and tools. But at this point, that is just a SWAG.
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We may not know much about who made them or why,but since they made more than one there must have been a market.
All I know is that they sure catch your eye and make you wish you had one to wear around camp
Its interesting that I took those Photos over 25 years ago and have shown them to many people but its only in the last couple of years that I have ever seen any real interest in this style of horn.
Must be the power on the internet.
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Being from the St. Louis area, these buffalo powderhorns have been of great interest to me for quite awhile. Hopefully someone will come across definitive documentation regarding where and by whom these fascinating horns were made. Till then we'll have to settle for speculation and educated hunches.
In the Missouri History Museum's digital image collection there is an copy of a letter dated January 8, 1841 from Robert E. Lee to a Mr. Henry Kayser in St. Louis. In the letter R. E. Lee asks Mr. Kayser to purchase a "very handsome" buffalo powder horn similar to one sent to "Col. Hook".
http://contentdm.mohistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/archives&CISOPTR=1051&CISOBOX=1&REC=2
I have to wonder what exactly this "handsome" horn might have looked like? A local collector here in the St. Louis area told me that he once heard that these boldly decorated buffalo horns were made in a Mandan Village on the upper Missouri River in what is now South Dakota. An interesting mystery.
Mark Loudenslager
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Loudy, you're a wonderful human being! I'd not seen that letter before, but I have run across Kayser's name--just have to remember where, I'm thinking it was one of the archives in St. Louis. I'll have to see what I can run down next trip.
Joe, I've seen Clark's horn a few times over the years but until relatively recently I was unaware of others like it in design and decoration. Once I learned of the others, I realized it was something I could study and try to put into context. That's my kind of puzzle! The 'net sure helps, otherwise I'd not have an opportunity to do so.
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Habu,
I'm glad to hear that you found the letter from R. E. Lee to Henry Kayser of interest. Here are some more pieces of the puzzle...
Back in the mid-1830's St. Louis was grappling with how to control the mighty Mississippi River. A then young West Point trained engineer named Lt. Robert E. Lee was called in by St. Louis native Gen. Charles Gratiot, chief of the engineer corps, to help tame the beast. Gratiot and Lee worked with a young German born engineer named Henry Kayser to develop a system of dykes and levees to control the river. Henry Kayser went on to become the foremost civil engineer in St. Louis prior to the Civil War.
Ref. "The Salvation of St. Louis, St. Louis The Fourth City 1764-1909" by Walter B. Stevens;
The S. J. Clarke Publishing Co., 1909.
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/steamboat.htm
R. E. Lee's letter mentions a "Gen. G.". I'm guessing he was referring to General Gratiot. More hunches!
Mark Loudenslager
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Is this the same Gratiot that served in the Black Hawk war on the Illinois Wisconsin border? I think...cant recall for certain and could be dead wrong...but I think I was once told by a collector of ST Louis horns that Black Hawk supposedly had one of these horns as well?
tc
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Some followup:
Catlin traveled with Clark to a council at Prairie du Chien in 1830, and seems to have been a frequent guest of Clark on later visits to St. Louis.
Lt. Lee not only requested Mr. Kayser send him a buffalo horn, but earlier--while working on the levees--Lee rented a room from, and apparently frequently dined with, Clark.
While in St. Louis in 1832, Robert Campbell bought from the "Horn Maker," 5 "common horns" @ $.56 1/4 per, and one "fine" horn for himself @ $2.00. Aside from giving us some interesting numbers on prices, it seems to indicate that at least one person in St. Louis was making horns of varying price levels according to quality/ornamentation.
Still digging. . . .
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Also in Campbell's records dated July 17 1832 .....1......powder horn......$5.00
6......powder horns,,@..62 1/2...$3.75
In 1832 five dollars was a bunch of money and would suggest much time involved in the making.....Huba, how would you like to see that horn ?..LP
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Louie, I don't have the complete records, so I have to ask if those were mountain prices? By 17 July Campbell should have been at the rendezvous. From the records I do have, it looks like John Gray, Narcissa Provo, and Robert Newell all got horns @ $5 on 17 July; on 12 July Antoine Goodin was charged $5 for a horn.
Those accounts were why your questions about Creamer and Andrew Jackson caught my attention earlier today--on 28 March, Campbell made a payment of $17 to P Creamer for "part price of Rifle for Self." Like to drove myself crazy trying to figure out where I'd seen that name recently.
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Jim, I can't answer that right now..When I get home this evening I will try and find that again
But He did buy the six horns at the same time,,I think there was other stuff listed also....LP
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In 1832 five dollars was a bunch of money and would suggest much time involved in the making.....Huba, how would you like to see that horn ?..LP
Louie, Do you happen to know where that horn is? JIM
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Jdm. I wish my answer could be yes ..Unfortunately I don't have a clue...But I do have hope it will turn up tomorrow !...............LP
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Louie, Knowing your luck it probably Will. Jim
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Huba
I am a poor researcher..I went back and searched, couldn't find the horn entries as I had wrote them down. I think I must have got the figures from two entries '
I think you are right, the five dollar price was a mountain price..Those fellows made a nice profit..If he bought that horn 56 1/4 and sold for five dollars > But if I had been along on that trip carrying those goods I would probably have thought
five dollars was too cheap..
Some interesting entries , like buying pistols from Hawken for $30.00 and having Philip Creamer repair his spurs. Sorry I didn't get the address hot..But its worth looking at......LP
http://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/campacct.html
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I just heard a suggestion that there may be a horn from the St. Louis group in a museum in or around Oklahoma City. Does anyone have any suggestions on which museums to check with first?
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Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, or perhaps The Cowboy Hall of Fame?
Dick
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Thanks, that will give me a starting point. My usual goal with OKC is to get through the traffic and out of town ASAP; I don't know the museums there.
Jim
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There is an original buffalo powder horn here in northern Indiana. Made from a large horn and flattened. It has a white bone spout tip, several smaller rectangular white bone inlays in throat (a couple have fallen off) and a white bone button in the flat butt plug for strap attachment. Spout plug is turned horn. The face of the butt plug is covered with black horn. All surfaces including butt plug have many small white, round bone inlays with small round red (?) inlays inbetween. The red inlays seem to be "chipping out" so are probably not made of bone like the white inlays are. A number of the small red and white inlays have fallen out. The front panel has the initials "C.F." in a large heart, also formed from many small bone and red inlays (of small diameter) so it was put on horn at the time the horn was made. Really neat, large old horn. It came with a nice Spencer buffalo rifle years ago; owner thought the horn didn't belong with a cartridge gun so he sold it off and kept the rifle. Shelby Gallien
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Tanselman, any chance you can get pictures of this horn? It sounds fascinating, but I can't quite picture it. Are the red inlays colored bone, or wood, or glass, or ????
Thanks,
Jim
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Jim, I'll see if pictures are possible, may take some time. To visualize the horn, think of a large, black buffalo horn, lots of curve, that is flattened and then shaped into an octogon with: large flat panels on front and back, smaller flat panels on top and bottom, and really small flats at the corners of the larger panels, creating an "almost" rectangle cross-section with corners flattened into an octagon. The white and red inlaid dots run along edges of each panel of horn as borders. The front panel has a lot more colored dots, making a moderate sized heart figure near the plug end with the initials CF inside, all done in the same colored inlaid dots. As mentioned in first post, the white bone inlay is solid, but the red inlay seems to be chipping off around the surface, as if it's a softer material like hardened red clay...I didn't look that close at red dots to really know, other than not as smooth and perfect as white bone ones now...but must have been when horn was new. The spout is worked into an octagon as all the panels come together, so the bone spout tip is also shaped as an octagon to match the horn body. Tip is perhaps 2 inches long and tapers. Up on spout near bone tip are several small, flat white bone inlays decorating the larger flats. They are attached by round black "pins" probably made of buffalo horn. A couple of the small white rectangular panels have fallen off as the pins have fallen out. Horn is old with good patina, not one of those highly polished "typical" buffalo powder horns that look almost new. Hope that helps you visualize it a little better. P.S. does anyone know a buffalo hunter with last initial "F" and perhaps his wife's first initial "C"? Shelby Gallien
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Thank you very much for the description! Good luck getting pictures, we'd all love to see them.
It some ways it sounds like the horn Mr. No Gold described earlier in this thread, back on 14 May. I was careful asking about the red inlays because I didn't want to suggest anything, but when you described it as ". . . chipping off around the surface, as if it's a softer material like hardened red clay . . . " I can't help but wonder if it is Catlinite, as Mr. No Gold described of the horn he saw at the Great Western show. That horn also had initials ("C. C." in that case).
Jim
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I'll head over to J M Davis and see if I can find one of these horns. I don't remember seeing one previously.
Roger B.
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On the Contempory Makers Blogsite today there are some good photos of a buffalo powderhorn that is in the Missouri Historical Society's collection. It is similar to the William Clark powderhorn. Lot's of speculation about this particular horn and whether or not the engraving scenes were done by John Audubon himself.
www.contemporarymakers.blogspot.com
Mark Loudenslager
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The photos and text seem to have come from here: http://alisonandtheprofessor.blogspot.com/2011/07/powder-horn-bucks-fawns-and-snake.html (http://alisonandtheprofessor.blogspot.com/2011/07/powder-horn-bucks-fawns-and-snake.html) The text there seems to indicate that the the horn is in the possession of MassAudubon, or the Audubon family (the earlier blog site isn't clear).
The Missouri Historical Society has the Clark horn, and one other from the St. Louis group (apparently the one posted by JoeG on 14 May, but I haven't been able to get confirmation of this from the museum), but unless it is a recent acquisition, it seems they don't have the horn possibly engraved by Audubon.
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I recently found that horn on a site and corresponded with the person who I understood had it in their possession..I was told Audubon bought the horn on his trip up the Missouri and it had been in the family since... For some reason they wouldn't sell it to me ! Louie
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Habu,
I'll try to clear this up next week. I'll stop by the Missouri Historical Society Library on Monday. I'll see if I can get additional photos & dimensions of any buffalo horns that they actually do possess. Sorry if I have been the spreader of misinformation.
Mark "Loudy" Loudenslager