AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: flatrock on July 29, 2012, 10:22:02 PM
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I have a surplus of pyrodex that was given to me and just wondered if anyone has used it in perc. revolvers. It is the RS which I know is the FFg equivient of black powder. Any suggestion? loads in a .44????? ???
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I really don't like using Pyrodex especially for the fouling it leaves behind but not to look a gift horse in the mouth, I would start with 25 grains and see how that works. If that is hitting low then move up to 30 grains and see how that does for you.
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I am quite biased regarding the BP replacement powders,( I don't like them!) however anybody that shoots black powder handguns, know the difficulty that arises with fowling and the difficulty to continue shooting a revolver.
Without cleaning every two or three cylinders, the action in most cases freezes up solid.
However with Pyrodex P powder, I can easily shoot twenty cylinders full, ( that is 20 X 6 = 120 shots ) without stopping.
I shoot 28 grs. of Pyrodex P, a .457 round ball ( soft lead ) and a dab of lube on each ball.
I also put a grease lube on the cylinder pin prior to shooting.
My black powder revolver is a Uberti 1860 Army ( stainless model )
I do clean it VERY WELL after each shooting session. I have had it since 1985.
I have not used Pyrodex RS in my shooter.
Old Ford
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I've had very good luck in a 44, both for ignition and accuracy, with Pyrodex P. From what I've seen, the guns can't tell it from Goex 3f. Dunno about Pyrodex RS, but nothing ventured nothing gained.
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The only guns I would consider using Pyrodex in are direct fire weapons, like revolvers, double barrel shotguns, or under hammer/sideslapper rifles. Anything with a drum and nipple, or a bolster and nipple, fire too slow with Pyrodex do be very consistent. JMO.
Hungry Horse
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I used pyro almost eclusively in the revolver I had. I would think that you should get good velocity and accuracy with RS if you pack the ball pretty tight. Like has been said, clean it really good and saturate your metal parts with WD-40 or somesuch.
volatpluvia
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Just to go in a little different direction, maybe you could trade it to someone for something you'd rather have....
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My suggeston for every one fo the phoney powder actually made with chlorates, ie: perchlorates in the MSDS, is to use them for garden fertilizer or merely dump them down the toilet and flush.
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Daryl, ....they work OK for blowing beaver dams :o ;D
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And stumps too :D
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Just to put a positive spin on this, blowing up beaver dams or stumps would only poison a stream or a stump!!!!! That stuff is so noxious that the government should be called to despose of it in a safe and sane manner. FRJ :D
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I tried it in a revolver once and didn't like it at all.
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I haven't tried Pyrodex in a C&B. I have had great luck with 2F black powder rather than the typical 3F. 2F will fill a cylinder well with no need for fillers.
I guess Pyrodex "RS" would work similarly but I haven't fired a load of Pyrodex in almost twenty years- I quit using it as soon as I found a place that sold Goex real BP.
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I have a friend who uses it in a stainless Ruger cap and ball revolver - perhaps it might be OK for that gun, I don't know.
I do know the fumes alone disintegrated the stainless cat-walk over the chlorate vats in a building where it is made. Finding out THAT gem of knowledge was enough for me - not to mention the numbers of barrels I've seen that were destroyed.
One fellow I know who used it exclusively: I watched him clean his barrels. He actually cleaned his guns thoroughly just after getting back to camp, even before supper, only having fired 3 or 4 shots that day while hunting grouse. All told, he probably only shot 20 shots while hunting that season, but did some testing at home. I knew he was cleaning his guns well, but to no avail. The stuff still rotted the bores of 4 rifles of his - 2 custom rifles with 3 - GM barrels and 2 TC's - a .40 and a .54. Considering the shallow .004" rifled bores rotted just as badly as the .012" rifling, the rifling depth and possibly not getting them clean, didn't have anything to do with the pitting.
I was flabbergasted at seeing the damage. The bores totally ruined in only 2 years.
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I think a lot of folks would change their minds about using the stuff, if they had an idea about what was actually in the " smoke " ie the gaseous product of the combustion. Mad Monk kindly supplied me with a link at one time which referred to " cyanide" if I recall correctly. My personal belief, all kidding aside, is that there really is not much reason to use the stuff; and a whole lot of reasons not to.
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My personal belief, all kidding aside, is that there really is not much reason to use the stuff; and a whole lot of reasons not to.
I completely agree. I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.
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I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.
Try moving to the bush. Lotta remote areas in Alaska where your choices are subs or not shooting. Period. No question real black is better all around. But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs. If they could get black, they would. If black is the only route to participation in "real" muzzleloading, numbers of enthusiasts will continue to shrink. No one likes to be whacked every time they open their mouth for something they have no control over. Only option is to shut up and leave.
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I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.
But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs. If they could get black, they would.
BrownBear, I think you misunderstood me. I never criticized anyone for using a substitute powder. I said real BP was preferable to a substitute powder. Obviously a substitute is preferable to nothing.
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I can think of no circumstance where it's preferable to use a BP substitute powder instead of a traditional BP such as Goex or Swiss.
But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs. If they could get black, they would.
BrownBear, I think you misunderstood me. I never criticized anyone for using a substitute powder. I said real BP was preferable to a substitute powder. Obviously a substitute is preferable to nothing.
I beg to differ. I just described a common circumstance in which the subs are preferable. Given the choice of shooting subs or not shooting, the constant grief guys get for using subs leaves them only the choice of not associating with "traditionalists" or to quit shooting altogether.
I've moved heaven and earth to get real black into my location, taking a year and private transport at the cost of just over $50 a pound by the time all was said and done. And I'm one of about three muzzleloaders among hundreds here that have gone to the trouble and expense. Everyone else is shooting subs. A bunch of good guys, for sure, but they won't come here or to any of the other traditional sites.
They're looking for ways to make the subs work, but all they get is grief. Guess where they have to go to learn how to use subs, even though they prefer traditional arms? The answer is written in the local sales records for traditional versus modern muzzleloaders. Any time a guy like me points out ways to manage with the subs, all he gets is grief. Chasing off folks is kind of a dead end in a shrinking sport, doncha think?
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I don't see anyone giving you grief, BB. No one is calling you down or stupid for using it. They're just telling you what to expect. I still have two pounds of Triple 7 in my powder mag. and cannot bear to throw it away. Harry Nicholson (Harnic) uses sub powders in his cap and ball revolver successfully, and loves it. It is good to have all the facts, and it's not personal.
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Try moving to the bush. Lotta remote areas in Alaska where your choices are subs or not shooting. Period. No question real black is better all around. But I doubt you're doing much for the sport criticizing folks with no choice but using subs. If they could get black, they would. If black is the only route to participation in "real" muzzleloading, numbers of enthusiasts will continue to shrink. No one likes to be whacked every time they open their mouth for something they have no control over. Only option is to shut up and leave.
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Have you tried Nor'west Company?
Dan
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As Taylor and others have stated, I meant no disrespect - only to note what happens with Pyrodex. I have been informed, that T-7 has no perchlorates in it, merely that the MSDS sheet was not changed to reflect that. We know the gun barrels we've saw destroyed, had been using Pyrodex, not T-7.
Mad Monk himself stated if he had to use a sub, it would probably be T-7 - definitely not Pyrodex.
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I meant no disrespect to anyone when I indicated my opinion re not much reason to use subs, and many reasons not to. "Not much" does not mean " No reason " . No choice is a no brainer IMO, so blast away with glee ;D I used to shoot pounds and pounds of Pyrodex a year before I slowly learned what I know today. I pay a premium for Black Powder , over the subs and will continue to do so out of preference.
But, I also prefer shooting to not shooting, so hope it never comes down to no choice here in my neck of the woods. Back a # of years ago, there was a problem getting black here, due to the destruction of the Goex factory. All brands of black were in sshort supply. I ended up using Pyrodex duplexed with IMR4227 in my Sharps 45-100. [ 1000 yd matches ]
It needed the 4 gr of 4227 to get decent accuracy at that range. I used 8 pounds of it that summer, and ended up throwing out 200 45 2.6 in cases, but it was better than not shooting.
I cleaned my gun every chance I got. No damage done that I could detect, but it worried me.
I only give my opinion on the subs to counter balance the unending promotion of them by almost every shop I've gone to. Gun clubs included. Most shooters I know actually believe that they [ subs] are better in every way. Having to use them is a lot different than preferring to use them.
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Ok, I meant no harm with the stump comment. I tried pyrodex a long time ago and with the continueous hang fires I gave the rest away. With the associated corrosion I'm glad I did. BP was instant ignition and I've stayed with it.
However, last weekend I had the opportunity to try T7 in my Remington 1858. I loaded and fired 3 cylinders. Charge was 28 grains, same as my BP charge. Ignition was fine but I doubt it was making 1/2 the BP velocity.
It was Boom - Whap as the ball hit the back stop. Some actually bounced back :o Definately needed to up the charge but only had the 28 gr measure.
On the positive side, clean-up was a breeze ;)
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However, last weekend I had the opportunity to try T7 in my Remington 1858. I loaded and fired 3 cylinders. Charge was 28 grains, same as my BP charge. Ignition was fine but I doubt it was making 1/2 the BP velocity.
It was Boom - Whap as the ball hit the back stop. Some actually bounced back :o Definately needed to up the charge but only had the 28 gr measure.
On the positive side, clean-up was a breeze ;)
I snipped the quote on the Pyrodex hangfires. That is not unknown in Pyrodex that was going over the hill as far as chemical stability goes.
With the T& in your revolver. You might want to look at different percussion caps.
When I got some of the first T7 out I tried it in my Lyman Trade Rifle side lock percussion. Nothing but trouble!!
Switched over to my Lyman GPR that had original been flint but converted to a mule ear percussion with one of Bernie Tolino's locks.
Compared to black powder, Pyrodex is more difficult to ignite mainly through a higher ignition temperature. The ignition temperature of T7 is a bit higher than that of Pyrodex.
I ran a bunch of tests. With the mule ear rifle I started out with standard caps. Then moved up to the same brand in Magnum caps. Velocity jumped up. The Magnum caps have about 20% more primer composition compared to the regular caps. So they of course give a greater amount of heat and flame. Then I shot with Remington Black Powder Caps. This time the velocity really jumped up. The Remington Black Powder caps were claimed to have 50% more "power". Meaning 50% more primer composition in them. So again greater heat and flame.
Smokeless powder have what is known as a "sensitivity to intensity of ignition". In part due to their high ignition temperatures. So what flys in the way of ignition strength for black powder will be weak when used with a powder with a lot higher ignition temperature.
But be warned. As you go up in the amount of primer composition in these caps you get an increase in the amount of residue they leave around the nipple. I found that I had to clean up the nipple exterior and around the nipple in the flash cup more frequently.
In the mule ear GPR I even had a 209 shot shell primer adapter. The Remington Black Powder caps gave the same velocity as the 209 shot shell primer. But the overall difference in the rifle was about 150 feet per second in muzzle velocity between the regular caps and the Remington Black Powder caps and the 209 primer.
E. Ogre
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I tried T 7 in a cap lock rifle last year. Seemed to go off just fine.
Just for laughs I tried it in a flint rifle, barrel and pan. Took 4 tries just to get the pan to ignite. Talk about slow fire fuse effect! I bout died laughing. You could jusy about count the seconds till it went off ;D
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Lynn, as Taylor said, I have used a fair amount of T7 in my stainless ROA & really like the performance. It generates more velocity ( likely pressure as well) than the same volume of GOEX 3F, but the accuracy is exceptional & the lack of fouling is great! Clean up is too simple! I have part of a can of Pyro around somewhere, I'm not likely to shoot it, but it works great for starting campfires! The kids love the effects! ;) I tried T7 in my flintlock last winter & was pleasantly surprised. I used 4F GOEX for prime & with my W/L touch hole liner it was barely slower to ignite than real bp. I can't hold very steady anyway, so the very slight lag makes very little difference to my shooting! To get back on topic, I haven't tried Pyro in my revolver, but I have used 2F goex ( the same burn rate as Pyro RS) & it works very well in the ROA. Give it a try, just be very thorough cleaning the pistol after.
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hey guys, thanks for the replies. many of them were quite helpful. I to usually use plain black powder but wanted to see other peoples experiencies in using pyro in revolvers. When I first started using bp it was about 1.50$ a can. The old dupont powder. That probably was in the early 1950`s. I guess that tells something about my age!!!! Caps were very cheap. I have since graduated to flint and have no intention of going back. When I started my grandsons shooting I made them learn to shoot flint before I would ever let them try caps. Thanks for all the replies.
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Flatrock, welcome and hang around, Good info and good folks here ;)
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Harnic - What load of T-7 are you shooting in your revolver. Maybe that stuff I tried was old or had absorbed moisture.
It did clean up easy. Anything we ought to know if I try it in the Rem 58 again?
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As far as absorbing moisture, what is the best thing to do if one suspects his powder is not totally dry? Put it in the oven??
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Harnic - What load of T-7 are you shooting in your revolver. Maybe that stuff I tried was old or had absorbed moisture.
It did clean up easy. Anything we ought to know if I try it in the Rem 58 again?
T7 needs a magnum primer esp. with a patent breech (don't know what you have) -- you'll get slow and/or inconsistent ignition with "normal" primers. The Winchester Magnum BP primers that Walmart carries (the one choice) are good for 777, in addition to the brands others mentioned. I had switched to them before trying T7 after some trouble with CCI primers (high percentage of dud caps), but when I went back to some regular CCI primers in practice to use them up, the CCI's were regularly slow and inconsistent with the T7.
I really can't figure out why it was underpowered for you. T7 is definitely not weaker/slower than Goex -- probably it is more than comparable with Swiss. I used it for quite a while in a capgun to hoard BP and in lieu of BP when I couldn't get any, and it is very accurate when you find the right load and use a suitable primer. Except for the funny smell and high price (cmp'd to Goex), I don't find it lacking in any respect. There are a couple of other shooters in my club who had a similar (i.e. extended trial) experience with it and they have favorable reviews of it as well. One expressed dismay at the extra cleaning when he went back to BP. Anyway, I don't want to start a war over phony powders, blah, blah, blah, but T7 is in my opinion a viable alternative to BP with few if any significant disadvantages in a caplock and shouldn't be thrown out with the Pyrodex bathwater :).
In reference to the original post, I used Pyrodex (both RS & P) some starting out (mainly because I didn't know how/where to get BP regularly) and I found it was about equal in performance and accuracy to Goex in equivalent granulation. It is, however, dirtier and more corrosive, and I don't think I knew the half of it at the time. I am reluctant to use it much anymore, but I do use some leftovers in a cheap pistol, where the barrel can be removed and dunked easily. The pistol doesn't appear to have any problems, but it doesn't get shot a whole lot. I expect hot primers would be good to try with Pyrodex also, as a new shooter one day at a match had some problems getting his rifle to go off fast using Pyrodex (and he had tried the obvious cleaning, etc.), but some magnum primers I still happened to have in my shooting box solved that issue for him. I can't remember, but I think he didn't want to try BP because he thought it would be too dirty :)?
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Bgf - Thanks for the input on magnum caps
Last year In a cap rifle the T-7 shot well using cci caps
I tried it in the flinter just fo laughs. Yes I could prime the barrel with bp but too much trouble to fool with. Much easier to load and prime from the single bp horn.
In the remington 1858 44 cap an ball revolver using cci caps I had the low power/velocity event
Our area wal-marts sell no caps at all and sends you down the road to a local gun shop, the only place around that sells em. Pretty limited on the caps I can get. Regular cci only
I still womder if that T-7 was degraded in some way
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As far as absorbing moisture, what is the best thing to do if one suspects his powder is not totally dry? Put it in the oven??
Throw it away. As Monk noted here or elsewhere, Pyrodex 'changes' it's chemical properites over age and becomes weaker and weaker. Do not put it in the oven, microwave or other moisture absorbing medium. As Harry noted, you could burn it - carefully.
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I really don't like pyrodex and I don't use in in my rifles. I will shoot it in my Lyman 1858 Rem. Everytime I think I've burned up all the pyrodex I have someone will give me a can or two. It's okay for plinking but when I'm carrying my pistol during deer season it is loaded with black powder.
Ross
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Harnic - What load of T-7 are you shooting in your revolver. Maybe that stuff I tried was old or had absorbed moisture.
It did clean up easy. Anything we ought to know if I try it in the Rem 58 again?
Lynn, I shot with my 35 gr measure using both a .457 rb & the Lee 230 gr conical. Recoil is near the upper end of comfortable to me with the Lee bullet. In my 58 cal fullstock flint Hawken I shot with my 75 gr measure & GOEX 4f prime, as I said there was a tiny bit of lag, but not excessive. Unless real bp gets too expensive or hard to get because of regulations, I'll be sticking with real in the rifle, but in my ROA, T7 is my fave! :) It's noticeably more potent than GOEX 3f.
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As far as absorbing moisture, what is the best thing to do if one suspects his powder is not totally dry? Put it in the oven??
Not in my oven! Wow, would that get your attention! Just lay it out in a pan on a nice warm day for a few hours.
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Thanx harnic. 35 grains. Will give it a go with some fresh T-7 when I get the chance.
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Thanx harnic. 35 grains. Will give it a go with some fresh T-7 when I get the chance.
I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised Lynn, it's a good propellant in cap&ball revolvers & eliminates that pesky jamming that comes from the fouling of too many shots with real bp. I have fired in excess of 100 shots in an afternoon using H777 with no binding, period! I enjoy my ROA a lot more when I'm not shooting real bp. Have fun! :)
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I'll post my T-7 revolver results as soon as I get an opportunity ;)
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Harnic, at the risk of getting this thread moved :o ;D what lube if any are using with that 35 gr equiv load?
Thanx
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Harnic, at the risk of getting this thread moved :o ;D what lube if any are using with that 35 gr equiv load?
Thanx
I use a Crisco/beeswax/olive oil mix. The olive oil makes is spread smoother. I'm not sure of the exact ratio, but it was roughly 3 parts Crisco shortening to 1 part beeswax. When it cooled I realized it was too "stiff" so I remelted it & added some olive oil. Sorry I can't be more specific, but it was done "by guess & by golly", not exactly repeatable!
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Thanks Harry, I have another recipe to try out ;) I appreciate it.
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This afternoon I went out back with the 1858 Remington 44
Man what a difference moving up to 35 grains volume of T-7 makes... Authoritative!
For lube on the range I used 1 drop of castor oil and let it run around each loaded ball. Way less mess and kept the fouling soft with upper 80's and 50 percent humidity today.
Like Harnic said, cleanup was E-Z ;)
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This thread was left on the shooting forum for people to discuss and more people to see the hazzards of using Pyrodex in a gun we want to last us for years. That is all.
Please post all future (if there are any) cap and ball threads in OTBF. Too many of these threads might find further restrictions. TKS.
Also note there are moderators who do not wish to see any C&B threads - this is under an on-going discussion at this time, amonsgt the Amin Team and Modertors. There are many other sites which cater to all black powder firearms, no matter where of how they are loaded, whereas this site is primarily devoted to the American Longrifle and it's associate period firearms. Even that was a long stretch for some.