AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: oldarcher on August 11, 2012, 08:40:03 PM

Title: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: oldarcher on August 11, 2012, 08:40:03 PM
I recently read a post here that spoke very highly of Dutch's shooting system, and it reminded me of the talk of how really good his advice is.....from the 70's. I didn't order the system then, because I thought that "I know it all" and didn't need any other so called expert to tell me how to shoot...Oh well, you live and learn... I wish that I had ordered the system 30 years ago, I sure would have saved a great deal of time.
Dutch didn't reveal anything in his system that I did not prove for myself over time, (except some really good tips that I would never have thought of)
His method has helped me rethink my process of finding the right combo for each barrel that I shoot.
I think that his system sells for about $20.00 and he will mail it on receipt of payment...

If you do one thing this year to help yourself shoot better this should be it! What a bargin!!

You can find more about his system at:
http://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/qa.html
Good shooting!!
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: LynnC on August 12, 2012, 06:51:16 AM
Shouldn't this be in the for sale section?
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: oldarcher on August 12, 2012, 02:39:00 PM
I would not have thought so...I am sure not selling this...I just purchased it.  I thought that something this good should be shared with other members who may not be aware of how good a rifle can be made to shoot!
This system is really not new, I saw it advertised in the late 70's or early 80's. It worked then and it sure works now.
Maybe Dutch should post a "for Sale" ad in the classified section?
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: SCLoyalist on August 12, 2012, 03:37:49 PM
I purchased Dutch's info packet years ago, and after reading through it decided that it wasn't rocket science, but it did describe a logical and methodical way of working up a load.    For example, working through the section on patch lube on the range with one of my rifles really impressed on me how group size was very sensitive to the patch lube.   

If the packet hasn't changed since I bought mine, it's about 20 pages or so of common sense which can be applied to finding out how tight a group your rifle can produce. 

 
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Don Getz on August 12, 2012, 04:10:15 PM
I used the Dutch's methods in my chunk gun but I'm not sure how it would work in a hunting gun.   In the barrel shop we
had water soluable oil, and had no problem in mixing up batches, different combinations to find out which worked best.
Problem with this method is that you end up with a "dry" patch, and it went down the barrel with difficulty, or pounding.
Fortunately, in shooting those chunk gun matches, you have time to clean the bore between shots.  I can't imagine
loading that dry patch into a dirty bore..........Don
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 12, 2012, 07:12:03 PM
Can't believe anyone would want to use a combination that needed wiping between shots - except maybe in a match rifle where you've all day long to fire 10 shots.  If anyone on our trail had to do that, they'd be shooting by themselves as no one, not the beginners, nor the ladies nor the old hands have to wipe during a full day's shooting, yet their accuracy is supurb- go figure. Perhaps I'm saying paying for asomeone's accuracy 'system" is a waste of money.  We'll all tell you how to get accuracy - for free - and - not have to wipe the bore during your trail shoot, with NO loss in accuracy.

Taylor's .62 Hawken is now shooting at or slightly under 3" at 200yards, almost as good as my .69. That's for the 10th group of 5 or the 1st group of the day - doesn't matter, with no wiping at any time.  If he used even more powder than he is using, that Hawken would be difficult to beat.

SCLoyalist's post is spot-on.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: oldarcher on August 12, 2012, 10:56:54 PM
I always enjoy reading posts on this and other forums, and I am continually impressed by how many great shots are out there, and how many really knowledgeable folks participate in the forums.
I have never shot a 3" off hand group at 200 yards, even with a centerfire and a scope, in fact I cannot even see the target at 200 yards without glass. Wow! I would be very happy with a 3" off hand group at 100 yards.
Great shooting Daryl...You certainly do not need any help from a shooting system. Keep doing exactly what you are doing!! Maybe some of us who are not so very good can benefit from all the help we can get.
I agree with SCLoyalist, in the fact that there is really nothing new with Dutch's method, it just makes you remember to do some of the things that you may have forgotton, or fail to do regularly. I do one other thing that I think helps, and that is to weigh the powder instead of measuring volume only....I have never been a real good shot, I just try very hard to be, and appreciate all the help I can get. Dutch did help me.
Don, I think that you are correct, a dry patch may not be the answer for everyone...I have changed the formula somewhat from Dutch's instructions, I keep the patch more damp, in a sealed jar. I do wipe after each shot, it just seems to make sense to me to do so.
Good Shooting!!
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Habu on August 12, 2012, 11:40:34 PM
It always struck me that Dutch's system worked because it forces people into that methodological approach to load development SCLoyalist referred to.  Most folks just don't systematically test the variables when developing a load.  If the approach is not something you're familiar with, Dutch's system could be a very good thing even if only parts are adopted. 

We had a shoot about a month ago (I really should get that written up).  One guy there shot kinda-mediocre scores at 25 and 50 yards, but didn't even want to try at the longer ranges due to accuracy problems.  It wasn't that he is a bad shot, the rifle just wouldn't shoot. 

The rifle was a T/C Renegade, and after five years he was still shooting the starting load the salesman suggested when he purchased the rifle: 80g FFFg/commercial pre-lube .011" patch/.530 round ball.  We took him off to the side and did some quick load development, and he finally did OK out to 100 yards.  One of the guys is going to help him do some more-serious bench testing of loads later this fall. 

If he'd been exposed to Dutch's system (or any other systematic approach to load development) five years ago, he could have avoided a lot of frustration over the years. 
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 13, 2012, 12:57:13 AM
I always enjoy reading posts on this and other forums, and I am continually impressed by how many great shots are out there, and how many really knowledgeable folks participate in the forums.
I have never shot a 3" off hand group at 200 yards, even with a centerfire and a scope, in fact I cannot even see the target at 200 yards without glass. Wow! I would be very happy with a 3" off hand group at 100 yards.
Great shooting Daryl...You certainly do not need any help from a shooting system. Keep doing exactly what you are doing!! Maybe some of us who are not so very good can benefit from all the help we can get.
I agree with SCLoyalist, in the fact that there is really nothing new with Dutch's method, it just makes you remember to do some of the things that you may have forgotton, or fail to do regularly. I do one other thing that I think helps, and that is to weigh the powder instead of measuring volume only....I have never been a real good shot, I just try very hard to be, and appreciate all the help I can get. Dutch did help me.
Don, I think that you are correct, a dry patch may not be the answer for everyone...I have changed the formula somewhat from Dutch's instructions, I keep the patch more damp, in a sealed jar. I do wipe after each shot, it just seems to make sense to me to do so.
Good Shooting!!

No one said anything about shooting 3" or better groups offhand at 200yards.  I've personally never seen it done, either, but 2" to 3" groups have been shot by us from a rest, with our open sighted ML's - that's something I've never seen a modern rifle do, either - metalics (peep)- yes, open sights, no.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 13, 2012, 01:11:26 AM
It always struck me that Dutch's system worked because it forces people into that methodological approach to load development SCLoyalist referred to.  Most folks just don't systematically test the variables when developing a load.  If the approach is not something you're familiar with, Dutch's system could be a very good thing even if only parts are adopted. 

We had a shoot about a month ago (I really should get that written up).  One guy there shot kinda-mediocre scores at 25 and 50 yards, but didn't even want to try at the longer ranges due to accuracy problems.  It wasn't that he is a bad shot, the rifle just wouldn't shoot. 

The rifle was a T/C Renegade, and after five years he was still shooting the starting load the salesman suggested when he purchased the rifle: 80g FFFg/commercial pre-lube .011" patch/.530 round ball.  We took him off to the side and did some quick load development, and he finally did OK out to 100 yards.  One of the guys is going to help him do some more-serious bench testing of loads later this fall. 

If he'd been exposed to Dutch's system (or any other systematic approach to load development) five years ago, he could have avoided a lot of frustration over the years. 

Habu - you might have a point - however with the internet today and sites such as this one with people all too willing to help out, there really is no excuse for using too-loose a patch, or too-little a powder charge or not knowing to start at the bottom and work up in 5 gr. increments. That is, unless accuracy just isn't important & for some people, that's the way it is.  Some people just don't care if they can hit a target past 25 yards.   Unfortunately, they seem all too happy to share their innacuracy with others, ie; using .010" to .012" patches with balls well under bore size - even as much as .010" smaller. With their loose load that requires wiping, they once shot a 1" group off a rest - That group has nothing to do with accuracy as a smoothbore with no rifling and only one sight can do that- my 20 bore does, yet won't put 5 consecutive shots on an 11" X 8" target at 50 yards with any load.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Habu on August 13, 2012, 11:06:53 AM
In general, I agree that if a person knew enough to know the rifle could shoot better, and wanted to shoot better, he could find the information.  But the guy was using the load he was told was best, and since he has been quite successful hunting with it, he didn't have any reason to expect better. 

Once he was shown his rifle could do better, then he started getting interested.  After some untested changes in his load, he did as well at 100 yards as he had at 25: not good enough to place, but better than he ever thought he could.  That got his attention--when he saw people breaking clay pigeons at 100 yards he thought he had a bad rifle, when he did it, he knew his rifle could do better. 

Its like the way people's expectations of handgun accuracy changed after metallic silhouette shooting really caught on.  Once they knew it could be done, they wanted to do it. 
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: LH on August 13, 2012, 02:35:52 PM
My results with the DS system were'nt very favorable.  Like some here said,  most of it is just common sense if you're not a beginner.  The patch lube part of it was a complete failure in the two guns I tried it in.  Sure enough I got a "best load"  with each gun using a particular patch lube,  and if I had quit right there,  I'd be completely happy with the system,  but being the hammer-head that I am,  I went out the following day and ran the same sequence again,  and just for good measure I did it again the third time.  Got different "best load"  each time.  If you've got the right patch cloth,  the groups arent going to vary much no matter how or what you use for a lube.  Dutch is bending the statistics by not using a suitable sample size to determine "best load".  IMO,  if you shoot four ten shot groups with each lube,  you'll see that they're all the same.  On the other hand,  if you shoot four five shot groups with the exact same lube,  one of them is always going to be better than the other three.  Significant, but meaningless. 
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 13, 2012, 05:21:45 PM
In general, I agree that if a person knew enough to know the rifle could shoot better, and wanted to shoot better, he could find the information.  But the guy was using the load he was told was best, and since he has been quite successful hunting with it, he didn't have any reason to expect better.  

Once he was shown his rifle could do better, then he started getting interested.  After some untested changes in his load, he did as well at 100 yards as he had at 25: not good enough to place, but better than he ever thought he could.  That got his attention--when he saw people breaking clay pigeons at 100 yards he thought he had a bad rifle, when he did it, he knew his rifle could do better.  

Its like the way people's expectations of handgun accuracy changed after metallic silhouette shooting really caught on.  Once they knew it could be done, they wanted to do it.  

Exactly -
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: zimmerstutzen on August 13, 2012, 05:52:08 PM
nor the old hands have to wipe during a full day's shooting, yet their accuracy is supurb- go figure.


Accuracy is all relative.  To some shooters, hitting a golf ball at 25 yards is good, to some hitting that golf ball at 100 is good.  I stopped by the slug gun matches at Blue Mountain last fall.  100yd shots were at separate bulls, but if overlapped, some five shot groups could have been covered with a quarter, and still wouldn't have won.

Some rifling is more ammenable to shooting without wiping.  Most is not.  Here in the mid Atlantic, high summer humidity can cause fouling to turn to thick slimy goo and wiping between shots gets the goo out.  On such days, no one could shoot "all day" without wiping or cleaning.  Even flash pans need to be wiped because of the thick greasy/wet coating of fouling will foul the prime powder.

Most shooters wouldn't know if wiping between shots makes a difference, because at offhand woods walks it makes little difference.  But if at 25 yds, it makes a mere 1/8 inch difference on paper, I want that edge.  

I have never seen a large match bench or cross stick competitor win or even place with out wiping between shots.  (At small matches sure, being third out of five competitors doesn't prove much)

Wiping between shots is only one of many things that shooters do to maintain consistency from shot to shot.  It is not the most important, not the least.  I have seen shooters measure powder in such a sloppy way, that from shot to shot it probably varied by at least 5 grains.  I have seen shooters use different patches, mix 440 balls with 445 balls, stand one way and then another.  I have seen them try to hold for 30 seconds and then gasp for air when they finally do jerk the trigger.    Wiping between shots won't mean a thing to such shooters when their consistency is already so far off.  When a shooter is very consistent on everything else, wiping will make a small measurable difference.    

at paper matches, I have  beaten better marksmen who were defeated by their own lack of attention to detail in loading.  

As for groups in modern rifles.  3 inches off a bench is bad.  Harry Pope guaranteed his muzzleloading centerfire barrels could shoot better groups at 200yds.      


    



Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 14, 2012, 12:07:25 AM
We shoot in high, dripping wet humidity at times as well, where the pan is filled with water by the time you bring the gun off your shoulder - yet no one here HAS to wipe - not my brother, our friends, my wife nor my daughter. They all use pure lead balls .005" under bore size and .022" to .023" patches.  That  solves many if not all problems. The bore remains exactly the same, shot to shot - without having to pack cleaning cloth, patches or cleaning solvents, water, or whatever. It is wiped as you load the next shot due to the compression the ball and patch is making in the bottom of EVERY groove. I've rifles with wipe grooves, narrow lands, grooves just a bit wider than the grooves, equal grooves and lands and narrow grooves and wide lands- I shoot the same combinations in all of them and they all give me 1" or better at 50 yards rest shooting and every one of them loads the same with the 60th shot as the first.

When someone says their gun crusts up and needs wiping or the humidiy is too high and needs wiping, I see both as excuses for not shooting a decent ball and patch combination. If the patch is too thin, the fouling will build up, shot to shot. In high humidity, that ruens to mud - in low humidity, that fouling crusts up - both are merely excuses for what I see as a poor combination.

We also shoot in humidity down to 6% - where lots of folks out West say they have to wipe because it's so dry, they can't load due to the dry crusty fouling.  That's just an excuse for shooting a thin combination or not enough lube - usually it's the combination. Merely licking a dry patch doe4s not constitute a spit lubed patch.

I've heard most all of the excuses, over and over again - getting "vomitus" from it - the answer amounts to this - shoot a decent ball and patch combination with a decent lube, spit or whatever as long as it's wet and there are no fouling NOR accuracy problems - ever - no matter what the humidty happens to be.  Shoot that combination with a wide variety of loads, from as starting level load to a maximum-type load and you will find a load that will shoot 1" or better at 50 yards if you have a decent barrel - WITHOUT having to wipe. Even my dang TC did an inch at 50 yards in 1973.  Most of you are shooting custom barrels and have NO Excuse for having to wipe nor shoot an inch or better at 50yards.  If Dutch Shultz's methods teach anything, it's to experiment - do it and stop thinking up excuses.

 
 
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: zimmerstutzen on August 14, 2012, 01:48:50 AM
The thing missing from your response is most telling.

Actually having tested whether it is the same
Chunk and. Bench shooters are the most finicky on earth.
They swab the bore between shots.
I have shot one inch 45 CSL groups at 100yds.
It would happen shooting as you do

Further, it doesn't matter if you use a sledge hammer to dart a tight combination.  Once the ball is swaged into the bore , it is no tighter than a ball darted by hand

Lead simply does not spring back extra hard against the bore.
Once a tight combo seals the bore adding patch thickness or larger lead means absolutely zero
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: oldarcher on August 14, 2012, 02:50:04 PM
That's what is great about forums....Opinions are like noses, everyone has at least one, some of us just show theirs more, and forums like this one provide a great platform for them to do so.
Having shot ML since 1976 at a great number of venues from the West to Indiana and as far South as Florida, I have learned what seems to make sense and what is really just plain BS. The real thought here is...do what works for you. 
Each type of good shooter has developed their "special" procedure to provide the best level of accuracy for their style of shooting.
My original post was simply to encourage those of us here to take advantage of a specified load work up procedure. Dutch's. It really is the best I have seen. It works for Dutch, and it made me re-remember things that I had stopped taking into consideration.
I would NOT say that shooting all day without wiping the bore is unrealistic...If it works for that shooter, then that is how he should shoot. That has defiantly not been my experience.
The positive of that post is that some shooters may try shooting without wiping and actually find out what effect that has.... Patch thickness, bore condition, type of patch lube, ball size, powder weight, load compression, and other factors do make a difference....They all should be done as close to exactly the same as possible to get the best accuracy from your rifle....I want to know that if I miss it is MY fault, not some unknown error that I made loading my rifle.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Roger Fisher on August 14, 2012, 04:57:28 PM
Oh well ! ;D
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: William Worth on August 14, 2012, 05:22:35 PM
I pick up tidbits here and there.  Some things work all of the time, some things work most of the time and some things just never work... :P
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 14, 2012, 06:25:02 PM
I'm not saying that excellent accuracy cannot be obtained with wiping between shots - obviously it can. What I am saying is that it isn't necessary to wipe, to obtain good accuracy - if - using a wet patch with enough thickness to create a seal in the bottom of the grooves.

Old Archer is absolutely correct:

 "The positive of that post is that some shooters may try shooting without wiping and actually find out what effect that has.... Patch thickness, bore condition, type of patch lube, ball size, powder weight, load compression, and other factors do make a difference....They all should be done as close to exactly the same as possible to get the best accuracy from your rifle....I want to know that if I miss it is MY fault, not some unknown error that I made loading my rifle."


I've read by BR shooters of long ago, that consistancy is 50% of a rifle's accuracy - I believe that wholeheartedly. We are talking about loading for actual accuracy, not thumb-starting reinacting-type loading.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: mjm46@bellsouth.net on August 14, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
I heard about the "Meathod" a long time ago. I've been doing this about 40 years and am basicly a cheapskate. I think I've heard all the things to try and have tried a lot of them, some help some are more trouble than they are worth. my point is for $20 for 20 pages of unknown information, it really strikes me a "snake oil" or the proverbial "Pig in a Poke" sales. Show me what's in the 20 pages and if I find it useful information then I'll buy it so I can have it as a permanent reference material.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on August 14, 2012, 09:17:27 PM
Micah you can borrow my copy that I bought about 6 or 7 years ago.  Its pretty much as everyone has described. I definitely don't like his dry patch and wiping mode though. 

Daryl, I don't seem to have trouble seating sloppy wet patched round balls without wiping, but I do find a lot of wet fouling tends to build up at the breech/touch hole on some of my guns after 20-30 shots (humid GA weather?) so I have found it useful to pick the vent after loading and to wipe the bore after 20-30 shots to clean up the breech....the lock pan of course also needs to be mopped regularly as it get very soupy.....never have figured out how a pan brush can work in that wet mess.. rag time with some alcohol even..........
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on August 15, 2012, 12:54:03 AM
Dr. Tim - I carry a rag to wipe out the pan when it's wet, as well.  It happens here too, thankfully, not as often here as on the East Coast or in Ontario.  100% humidity, with not a cloud in the sky and 110F in the shade. Nasty, horrible, dispicable place - so glad I left in 1972.

Roger Fisher, always a contender whereever he shoots, does not wipe between shots either, either, unless using his chunk gun with dry teflon patches & oversized balls.  Obviously, wiping would be necessary then - which is about the same routine as the BR guys are using.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on August 15, 2012, 03:37:51 AM
this has nothing to do with the thread, but I just have to say, Roger Fisher is the very epitome of Black Powder shooting.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Roger Fisher on August 15, 2012, 04:59:18 AM
this has nothing to do with the thread, but I just have to say, Roger Fisher is the very epitome of Black Powder shooting.
Wot, you been drinkin ??? ;D
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on August 15, 2012, 05:32:52 AM
Appleton's.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Maven on August 17, 2012, 03:44:07 PM
I too have tried Dutch's "system," but with mixed results.  To wit, the "dry" patch regimen didn't work so well for me: too much effort to seat the patched RB; no magical improvement in accuracy.  However, his target analysis and discussion of patch thickness (I was new at this then) was a real eye opener and helped me to get a new Green Mtn. bbl. to shoot well.  As for wet/damp patches, I found that at least in my Rice bbl'ed. Isaac Haines .54cal. rifle, there was no need to swab the bore at all, although I did so 2x when changing to a different RB.*

For my fellow rum fanciers, try these 80 proof rums:  Bacardi Dark (a real bargain), Gosling's Black Seal (Bermuda rum), or Cruzan 28 yr. old.  Appleton's is good too, as is Mt. Gay.


*73 - 80gr. Graf's (Wano) FFFg by volume
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: doug on August 19, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
   even though I have a copy of Dutch's system, I have never used it because it essentially is a bench rest method and we shoot almost exclusively woods walks around here.  I would also be a bit nervous of shooting essentially a dry patch in the woods in summer time.  I did think the method made sense if you were a bench shooter.

    Re the comment about wet muggy conditions, a damp barrel between shots has never been a problem for me and in fact it is somewhat preferrable because it allows easier loading.  Under those conditions I do keep a strip of cloth tied to my possibles bag for wiping the pan and particularly the bottom of the pan cover

cheer Doug
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: westerner on August 19, 2012, 11:47:46 PM
I been using a spit patch when shooting round balls forever.  Have experimented a lot on my own. I thought that was the fun part of shooting and experimenting with loads.  If Dutch's loading system is a shortcut and it works it would stop all the fun,...... for me that is.
My fun continues. Been experimenting with .38 hollow base (Minie) bullets in one of my German percussion Schuetzen rifles. Part of the fun is making the molds and experimenting with skirt thickness and shapes. Dont want anyone to tell me what works. Have found that it doesnt always work anyway.  
Read Dutch's book and you'll still spend a lifetime having fun experimenting with rifles and loads.  If you're like me that is. I dont know anyone who just wants the best load right now. But, if you have an open mind or you're not very bright or new to BP shooting or like to read about others efforts..................

Better to have an open mind, if you can handle it that is.   ;D

     Joe.












Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: pathfinder on August 23, 2012, 06:19:34 PM
Was alway's leary about how "secretive" everyone was who bought the "system" Kinda cultish sounding. "We bought it,IT'S AWSOME, cant tell ya or we'll have to kill ya!"

I also have no problem using spit as a lube. Dr. Tim is right about having a seperate rag to mop up the pan on humid day's,just dont grab it and stick it in yer mouth for a patch,takes MONTHS to get that taste out!
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: oldarcher on August 24, 2012, 02:23:18 PM
I really did not expect this amount of reaction to my post concerning my satisfaction with Dutch's shooting/load system. Dutch wrote his "system" in the early 80's to share his technique to determine how to find the powder/ball/patch/lube your rifle likes best. At that time we had only articles in Muzzle Blasts, Muzzleloader as well as some very good books to advise us. Those of us that were able to go to Friendship could watch the bench shooters, but few would take the time to share their secrets with anyone they did not know. The Internet was not available so Dutch was a great source of information. I reread the information and realized that it was still valid today.

I do not doubt for a second that our Northern Friend is satisfied by shooting without cleaning. I am sure that he is convinced that he and his friends have the "combination" for good accuracy.

I have been shooting for nearly 40 years, and have forgotton the many, many barrels that I have used. (My best shooting barrel was a Getz that I purchased at a NMLRA auction at Friendship in 2000). I have NEVER been able to shoot a good tight patch/ball combination without regular wiping.

The intent of my post has been reached: To discuss the importance of small differences in loading, and to remind each of us to rethink what we think we know. The intent is not to champion a specific technique or load, but to make us constantly challenge our knowledge of what really works.
Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Paul Griffith on August 24, 2012, 03:06:16 PM
Basically it all boils down to having the ability to sort out what works for you & your equipment from the bombardment of information we can deal with. Whether it comes from books or forums of this nature or drunkin campfires or chatter at shoots or where ever. 

I will say that it's easier to trust info coming from proven resourses. Some one winning matches must be doing something right. A shooter who can take 5 balls to the range & put them in the 100yd "one inch group " is also doing everything right.

Keep in mind, while kicking around that 1" group, that, if centered on a standard 100yd NMLRA target that it would score 50XXXXX. This would have probably won every national 100yd round ball bench match shot at Friendship since they started having the matches in the 1930s.
Paul


Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Roger Fisher on August 24, 2012, 05:51:53 PM
I really did not expect this amount of reaction to my post concerning my satisfaction with Dutch's shooting/load system. Dutch wrote his "system" in the early 80's to share his technique to determine how to find the powder/ball/patch/lube your rifle likes best. At that time we had only articles in Muzzle Blasts, Muzzleloader as well as some very good books to advise us. Those of us that were able to go to Friendship could watch the bench shooters, but few would take the time to share their secrets with anyone they did not know. The Internet was not available so Dutch was a great source of information. I reread the information and realized that it was still valid today.

I do not doubt for a second that our Northern Friend is satisfied by shooting without cleaning. I am sure that he is convinced that he and his friends have the "combination" for good accuracy.

I have been shooting for nearly 40 years, and have forgotton the many, many barrels that I have used. (My best shooting barrel was a Getz that I purchased at a NMLRA auction at Friendship in 2000). I have NEVER been able to shoot a good tight patch/ball combination without regular wiping.

The intent of my post has been reached: To discuss the importance of small differences in loading, and to remind each of us to rethink what we think we know. The intent is not to champion a specific technique or load, but to make us constantly challenge our knowledge of what really works.
Just my 2 cents.
Let me add one little thingy here then I'll shut up!!  You state that our northern friend shoots w/o cleaning and you mention that you can't shoot a tight combo w/o 'regular wiping.... He/they/we ARE cleaning and also are wiping regularly.    I refer to spit patching not teflon....teflon yes we need then to use a seperate patch to clean between each shot (or nearly every shot)  The sloppy wet patch system 'we'clean the bore when we load the beastie and 'we' clean when we shoot the beastie...  not pickin on anyone; but maybe a more careful reading/thinking about the wet patch system would clear it up for you... :)  And yes, Ol Dutch's system works also if you like to wipe  with a seperate patch. 8)
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: hlary on August 27, 2012, 11:55:23 PM
I read this forum quite a bit but primarily for it's entertainment value and on rare occasions feel compelled to post a comment. This is one of those times.
 
First the disclaimer: I do not profess to know all there is about accurate rifle shooting but am able to make at least some simple observations from what I've read and from my own experience of 33 years. It seems to me, that according to everything I've read on this forum, there are an infinite number of ball/patch/lube/load combinations that shoot "accurately" in an equally infinite number of different barrel types/calibers. So therefore it would have to be a simple conclusion based on the free accuracy information obtained from this forum, that a good to premium made barrel would, in all probability, although impractical, shoot to nearly one hole if it were tested clamped in some sort of a vice. Now, somebody said earlier that they got a different "best load" each and every time they went out to shoot. Well, what I am about to propose will likely step on some egos but there has been an obvious neglect of this one particular subject.....shooter ability (OUCH!). Yep, I just said it. And to prove my point, I challenge anyone to drill and tap that barrel, mount a 24X scope on it and shoot some groups. I'll bet you my favorite Indian head nickel that your groups will not only tighten dramatically but will become a heck of a lot more consistent and with a variety of loads too! No, I've never done this myself but an average amount of intelligence along with some good common sense should prove this theory without having to ruin anyone's favorite rifle, right? Therefore I think we can safely conclude that the major element that needs refining in our pursuit of some higher level of accuracy is learning how to better/more consistently shoot a rifle with open iron sights, or in other words, maintain a consistent sight picture every time.  I believe this to be more critical than that elusive perfect load combination.   
 
Some fellow said that Dutch's accuracy method referred to bench rest shooters rather than off hand shooters so it wasn't really relevant. I'll ask this: anybody who regulates their sights or works up a best load in the off hand/standing position, please raise their hand........I thought so. To the sloppy wet patch/no wipe shooters, the obvious reason there is a need for a sloppy wet patch is BECAUSE you don't wipe between shots and judging from the infinite number of "lube" concoctions I've read on this forum alone, just about anything at all will work....even some of that dark rum mentioned earlier. The "dry" patch  (and of course it's not really dry) has no problem being loaded into a barrel that has been preconditioned with a simple wipe between shots. That's one wipe, in and out and that's all. Somebody else said that they didn't have time to "clean" their barrel between shots. The between shot wipe is NOT intended to "clean" but rather to maintain the barrels condition from one shot to the next. Remember that consistency thing? Likewise the no wipe method in essence achieves the same only with a progressively dirtier barrel, up to point I would suppose.  It has already been mentioned (proven?) that there is no way a "dry" patch will go down a barrel that fouled. There's just a lot of funk being pushed down into that powder column. Three inch groups at 200 yards?? How many world records does this person hold!?
 
The Dutch Schultz accuracy method was intended to start anyone down the path to good rifle accuracy, not drop you off right at the front door.
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: dagner on August 28, 2012, 05:37:19 AM
 i  read some foolish replies about  i shoot a .005 under and .020 thousands patch  and never have to whipe .   so your gun bore is bigger than your numbers indicate   have been shooting chunk about 12 years  we found best acuracy a tight patchted ball  most of people sh00t minimuim of 90 grains of 2ff  most around 115 for a 5o cal    the more powder you shoot the more $#@* left in barrel   forget to wipe your bore  and try to get a ball down it   you have to beat it down you sure as $#*! are not going to push it down with a ramrod . now shoot that at the target and watch your crappy score come . this   is chunk and bench is not your woods walk with your coned bores and undersized balls  for easy starting  and loading   dutch schultz was sold and system shot for years by infamous  bevel brothers  one of the top  chunk  shooters in country still uses it .  all the  chunk shooter wipe after every shot and scrape their flat bottomed breach plugs regularly. dont have to clean and still get chunk accurarcy  .bull . the bevels did articles on dirty barrel  deterating shooting  accujracy
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: dagner on August 28, 2012, 05:53:54 AM
  to save some of you knuclke heads  from a stupid reply  paul griffth has forgot more about accurate muzzle loading shootin than most of us will ever learn  he very very seldom puts  out a comment that is not thought ought  .  it is  well worth your while to listen what he says . he dont get into  arguements or try to make you see his way  . you know when you are reaaly  screwed when he gives you that little smile  then says ok  and  changes the subject  he is a firm believer in letting you learn from the school of hard knocks  if you dont want to listen .  says it builds character.  well he has been known to slip in coons shop  the night before shoot
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: cobracoach on August 28, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
  I to am a voyeur on this site as I don`t like to get into internet discussions. I cannot believe, however that no one has brought up an obvious point about this whole discussion.
  It seems most of the debate in this thread is centered around wiping or not wiping between shots, would that be fairly accurate?
 
  In the 1970s a top competitor from Columbus Ohio named Ed Green got his hand scarred for life when he was trying to finish a Target before the end of a relay and quickly threw a charge without  cleaning the gun and the charge went off instantly, burning most of his hand.
  
As I shoot at Canal Fulton Ohio which has tons of history associated with it, here`s another one.  Tom Pike, one of the early fathers of the nmlra came over to Fulton for the 1st time at our big July 4th shoot in the 1930`s and was being shown how to shoot by Walter Grote (another founding father of the nmlra), when down the line a ways there was a big commotion, and here a guy was loading without cleaning and had his hand on top of the loading rod seating the ball and the rod and ball both went thru his hand apparently from smoldering embers in the breach igniting the powder. The story goes Walter looked at Tom and said "I bet you`ll never need to be reminded to clean between shots eh", and Tom said, "no sir!"

  I could be wrong but I believe at Friendship you HAVE to wipe between shots. Sorry to be long winded, but I can`t believe this has not been touched on yet.....      
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: dagner on August 29, 2012, 08:11:28 AM
 good reply  we get our knickers in a knott and forget reason
dag
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: hlary on August 29, 2012, 03:41:02 PM
you MUST learn to shoot BEFORE you can shoot to learn........
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: LynnC on August 30, 2012, 07:50:42 PM
It seams this thread ought to be split between the Bench Rest/Chunk Match Crowd where one has all afternoon to clean, load and shoot and the Woods Walk, Rondevous Crowd where wiping is an inconvenience and putting a smouldering dry patch down range is out of the question.

Both camps have developed accurate loading methods that produce the best results for their particular shooting situation.

Were I to take up Bench Match Shooting or Chunk, I'm sure I'd have to to become a meticulous bore cleaner between shots to be competitive.

As a woods walk style shooter, I work up my best thick wet patch (requires short starter) load at the bench and then Enjoy offhand no wipe shooting from there on out.

Two totally different shooting games being discussed here.  Maybe there ought to be a thread for each philosophy  ;)

Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Paul Griffith on August 30, 2012, 10:47:37 PM
I'm not sure that you can put it any better, Lynn. From early in this thread there's been this sort of thought that one side was right & somebody else wrong. Truth of the matter is that there is no right or wrong, just what works for you at the moment at hand. I can't imagine cleaning between shots at a woods walk or when squirrel hunting. Like most anybody else I do clean chunk barrels between shots.  Something that applies to such matters  is a little mind game  "if you believe that what you're doing helps your shootin......it probably does"
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: jmdavis on August 30, 2012, 11:06:15 PM
I wish that I knew as much about muzzleloaders as Griffith and Getz have forgotten. I bought Dutch's booklet. And I think that it was valuable.

As others have pointed out, much of the value lies in teaching the shooter to develop a system. A methodical, works all the time system. What I found reading Dutch was the same thing that I learned in the Physics lab or in computer programming. A properly developed system works.

As for wiping, if I have the choice I wipe between shots both for muzzleloaders and BPCR's. I do it hunting, I do it at the bench, I do it with the chunk gun, I do it with the flintlock fowler. It works for me and that is enough.

If I can't wipe, I like a wet patch (ballistol and water, windshield washer fluid, spit, commercial lube) for loading. 
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: dagner on September 03, 2012, 09:34:49 AM
GOOD POST LYNN . I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT MY OLD METAL WOODS WALK TARGET DAYS. WE HAD 21 SHOTS.  YOU WERE RIGHT ALL OF US POURED POWDWER DOWN AND THEN LOADED A WET PATCHED BALL. OR THOSE WONDER LUBLE PATCHES WERE GREAT  FOR LOADING ALL DAY.WE WERE ACTUALLY CLEANING THE BORE AND LOADING AT THE SAME TIME  

YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT BENCH CHUNK  MOST GUYS WIPED WTH COUPLE DAMP PATCHES THEN RAN A DRY ONE DOWN TO DRY THE BORE   MOST PEOPLE USED DRY TEFLON OR SCHULTZ  .THAT IS WHY BORE HAD TO BE SO CLEAN.   DRY PATCH  LOADING. THE OLD APPLES AND ORANGES COMPARISON.  2 COMEPLETELY DIFFERNT TYPES OF SHOOTING  

AS FOR PAUL SHOOTING SQIRRELS   HIS WIFE SAYS THAT THE ONLY SQIRRELS AROUND THEIR PLACE IS PAUL AND HIS BUDDIES HIDING OUT IN THE SHOP
DAG
Title: Re: Dutch Schoultz's Shooting System
Post by: Daryl on September 03, 2012, 08:54:03 PM
Totally correct, Lynn - thanks for your post.