AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: James on October 13, 2012, 04:44:06 PM
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Kit Ravenshear's booklet on springs suggests using steel in the 1070 range for lock springs. Dixie sells spring stock that he states is in the 1060-1080 range. I am curious if a resident metal expert could tell me what sorts of scrap steel items would be acceptable to forge into springs. I have many types of scrap steel, but don't know what the rating of them is, i.e. auto coil springs, modern and antique hay rake tines, leaf springs etc. I would rather use something I have on hand that I can forge into flat stock to make springs from, rather than buy it. What would work the best?
Thank you for your time,
Jim
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Any former spring has potential as do other high carbon tool scraps (old files, knife blades, some saw blades, etc.). I am sure early smiths re-used scrap for such purposes so can you. That being said I think it is far easier, and more predictable, to use known alloys. Several suppliers other than those mentioned (Enco for example) offer inexpensive flat ground tool steel stock that would be a better choice. If you purchase from one of these suppliers at least you know exactly what you are getting and can select the best heat treatment for it as well.
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I've used lawn mower blades with good sucess. Carbon steel hacksaw blades will work for small springs. Cut a small strip of steel, heat red hot, then quench in water to harden it, then clamp in a vise and hit it with a hammer. If it is brittle and breaks like a piece of glass it can usually be used for a spring.
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I tend to like pitchforks as a source of stock for musket springs. Part of that is convenience (I can find one on most scrap piles around here), and part of it is that I just plain hate pitching hay. Heat treat it like 1095.
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Take a small piece of the steel in question, and heat treat it. see how it performs before you put a whole bunch of work into making a spring.
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I saved this when one of our members here posted it for us. Its a list of what common junk yard stuff is made from.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv648%2FDaveB44%2Fjunkyard.jpg&hash=5fcc5f7102a86d1abf9d187c2b81070bdcd6e292)
once you know the make up you can determine how it needs to be treated.
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I used that chart when I did some toolmaking and springmaking but question that cold rolled steel is 1070. I used old ag steel quite a but with success. Hay rake tines, dump rake tines, harrow blades, all harden well and make decent tools and springs. It's fun to re-purpose but easier to buy spring steel.
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I like pitchfork tines for main springs, I use old fish tapes bought at yard sales. they are usually in pretty good shape, because they are usually kept oiled, and make nice sear springs, patchbox springs, frizzen springs, and even revolver springs.
Hungry Horse
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Years ago we ended up making 3 or 4 mainsprings for the same lock before we figured out that the auto leaf spring scrap we had was from a differnt car and was some sort of "air hardening steel." The time wasted far exceded the cost of new steel.
In the 18th and 19th centuries steel bar stock was found in stores even out in the backcountry.
Gary
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I have made somewhere around 50 mainsprings and use almost exclusively drill rod (guessing 1095). I forge it to a bit over thickness and grind and file it etc from there. It has always been very dependable for me. Recently I tried making a very wide mainspring (over 1" wide) for a miquelet lock out of an automotive leaf spring. While I was able make it springy, it was still too brittle and both tries broke. I did what I should have done in the first place; coughed up with the money and bought some 5/8" drill rod. That spring worked 100%.
Garden shovels are a high carbon steel and should work for smaller springs, but I can't remember if I have ever used them for that purpose
cheers Doug
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Doug,
Contact me at <bobroller@frontier.com>.
Bob Roller
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If the spring isn't being used in a very demanding location you can get away with a lot of different alloys and heat treatments. When you push a spring to the limits, you better know what it is made of and how to heat treat it. Of all the springs associated with a flintlock firearm, the mainspring is of course the most highly stressed. I know the crowd associated with the stuff likes to re-use etc. but it really does pay to buy a known proper material first and then perform a proper heat treatment. The time spent in this stuff far outweighs the price of the material.
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buy some 1070
sell the scrap springs to the scrap yard
Lawn mower blades used to be AISI 1070, quenched in molten salt to about a Rockwell C 40 hardness. Would be a good spring steel.
Them was the old days. Now, at least for the US, lawnmower blades are 10B35, makes a tougher blade but not such a good spring.
Whatever the steel, if you FORGE it to shape you MUST MUST ANNEAL or NORMALIZE it before hardening tempering. This is necessary to refine the grain size, which grew to Lord knows what size here & there during forging. For a few shots it does not matter, But if you want your forged anything to work a long time & be tough, you gotta heat it maybe 1500 - 1650F and air cool (that is "normalizing", the normal way to cool something, just let it cool in air). Or, for higher carbon steels one must anneal. Fine grained metal always works better than coarse grained (you gas turbine blade guys of course look at it differently)
Perhaps I spoke to strongly. "MUST" doesn't really come in to it, unless you want the thing to perform the best it can.
Text Book Metallurgy that works.
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I bought some 1070 and it works really nice hot easier then 1095. Prefer it.
You can get all sorts of steel from pitchforks to car springs that will make a spring. Allen wrenches will make springs.
Buying flat stock with a good finish, proper alloy and close to the size needed is more cost effective and less frustrating.
For example a significant number of old buggy and wagon seat springs are AIR HARDENING and this can result in ruined files and hacksaw blades even with a standard annealing process.
I buy 1018 for lock plates, trigger bars, casehardened parts etc and 1070 for springs or use some of a 1/8 x 1 bar of 1095 I have from years back, which is bad enough, its hot rolled and requires annealing to cut without fear and has a hot rolled finish that is hard on tools as well. The extra labor and tool wear involved with making springs and other parts from scrap make it counter productive.
Dan
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Dan, there is a lot to be said for working with a known entity, especially if you'll be putting long hours into making a spring.
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I fully agree with Dan.Buying something of known provenence
is the only way to go when it comes to spring making. I have used 1075 for decades
and so far,only one failure and I think that spring was tampered with. Until recently,
I had it and the color was odd looking. For years,I sent a lot of locks out of the USA
and I HAD to have a spring steel that was uniform and for me,1075 is it. I wouldn't
ever attempt making springs from drill rod or pitch fork tines or anything else. Years ago,
one lock maker used 1095 and made tumblers from Chrysler and Packard torsion bars.
For tumblers, I use 1144. It machines almost like 12L14 and will harden in oil when heated
and quenched. Methods and mmaerials may vary a lot from person to person but I am
oriented to results and knowing that when I send a lock to where ever,it has good quality
springs and other parts.
Bob Roller
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I see the general opinion and reasoning behind it. I was under the mistaken impression that the steel I have would be one alloy or another consistent with what it had been originally used for. I see your point that there is no way for me to know what the parts I have were made from and that for my needs I should know what I'm working with. Thank you.
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I see the general opinion and reasoning behind it. I was under the mistaken impression that the steel I have would be one alloy or another consistent with what it had been originally used for. I see your point that there is no way for me to know what the parts I have were made from and that for my needs I should know what I'm working with. Thank you.
yes, the specific contents of the alloy-represented by the numeric designations, determine the characteristics of the alloy. The most pertinent of those being how it responds to the various heat-treatments used to create a properly durable part. *
While i rather enjoy making shop tools (and other things) from scraps and worn files, but if a shop tool "fails" i just fix it or make another one. I wouldn't want to have any "contributory responsibility" in the field failure of a lock part.
* there's some real good reading in Machinery's Handbook wrt spring materials (and every other engineering aspect of a spring).
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Where can I get 1070 in small batches?
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Acer,
Try McMaster-Carr. I think they are in Norther Ohio.maybe Cleveland.
I bought 50 lbs of 1075 from Lapham-Hickey in Chicago recently in 1/8"
thickness for mainsprings. I tried several other steel suppliers that I once
bought from and they seemed hostile to a small shop like mine so I was
directed to Lapham-Hickey. SOME of these outfits will send a sample but
I don't recall which ones.
Bob Roller
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Thanks, Bob. McMaster sells only 1095. I'll look at MSC.
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Thanks, Bob. McMaster sells only 1095. I'll look at MSC.
admiralsteel(.com) has some 1075.
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My last experience with Admiral Steel was that they were not intetested in small shops or orders.
Bob Roller
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Flat spring stock assortment-1075 steel
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26219/Product/NO-149-FLAT-SPRING-STOCK
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I think DGW sells 1070-1075 1" wide by 12" long.
At least is was 1070 a few years back.
Dan
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My search of McMaster Carr shows spring steel 1074/1075 available.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-steel-sheets/=jqfvdc (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-steel-sheets/=jqfvdc)
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Thank you for the sources, I had some metal suppliers bookmarked, but 1070/1075 were not in the offerings they had.Thanks again for your help, Jim
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Admiral Steel does sell 1075/1080 in smaller amounts with a $25.00 minimum - just look under their blade steels.
But IMO the currently available best spring steel is the 1084 from Aldo - the New Jersey Steel Baron - this steel is custom ordered and has VERY high quality control unlike most others that mostly come from China - the latter as far as I know includes Admiral and MSC - my Dad a master machinist made thousands of springs from 1084 and I've made hundreds of springs for various uses along with hundreds of knife blades from 1084/1085 - FWIW 1084 was the steel most often used for car springs prior to the the 1960's when alloys like 5160 became more widely used. Aldo also sell 1075 but it's twice the price of 1084 and for springs there's not a spits worth of difference at least in my experience..
One other thing ALWAYS check the steel breakdown list for the piece you bought - those numbers such as 1075 are only nominal - the chemical makeup including the carbon content can vary - sometimes considerably and that MUST be taken into consideration when heat treating the steel - note how Admiral sells 1075/1080 - I've known guys who bought it over several years and the batches varied considerably - some being 1065 and other being 1085 - the last two number being the percentage of carbon - 1065 = .65% and 1085 = .85% - while nominally close they will heat treat differently for optimum performance
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I am glad to hear Admiral Steel finally woke up to the fact that a fast $5 is better than a slow$20. The last time
I called them,their tone was hostile and my call apparently was viewed as a PITA. I no longer need them and the
1075 I now have will probably finish out my life as a metal working craftsman at my current slow/low rate of shop
time.
Bob Roller
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I recently contacted Admiral about some 1095. Only available in full sheets. I asked about 1/2 sheet. He said "sure, but we'll still charge you for the full sheet - plus a cutting fee" So I said "I guess I'll take the whole sheet" - but - it's so heavy that it ships on a truck and the shipping is as much as the steel. !! I didn't want to invest over $700 and certainly didn't need that much material and don't want to store the leftover so I blew it off. They aren't very customer friendly.
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I think DGW sells 1070-1075 1" wide by 12" long.
At least is was 1070 a few years back.
Dan
I ordered some of this a while back because it was the source recommended in Ravenshear's book on springs. The price is certainly fair. It is disconcerting that they don't list the type of steel, other than "spring steel".
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The 1070 or 1075 must mean the steel has .70% or .75% carbon.Note the decimal point in the numbers. ;)
A comparison would be the 1095 used so much for knife blades. They tout it as high carbon steel blades but to me the .95% carbon is low carbon steel. Not brittle.
Anywhooooo.....you can call Dixie, if that's where you got the spring steel, and ask for "The Gunsmith" in house. I think his name is Jamie like it must be actually James. He could tell you what kind of steel it is.
If you quench then anneal your steel and the anneal is tempered to ,say 600 degrees and is brittle then some steel is annealed at 900 degrees....fromwhat I understand. Anywhoooo...if you temper after quenching and the steel is too soft and not springy the temper was too hot and if the steel is brittle the temper was too cold.
That's what I understand it to be.....my two cents on the subject.
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For small quantities try Jantz Supply. They have carbon steel for knife making. Some is listed as 1095 and some as 1075.
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The 1070 or 1075 must mean the steel has .70% or .75% carbon.Note the decimal point in the numbers. ;)
A comparison would be the 1095 used so much for knife blades. They tout it as high carbon steel blades but to me the .95% carbon is low carbon steel. Not brittle.
That may be to you for whatever reason, but high carbon steel for knife blades and other uses such as springs is considered from .60% up to around 1.5% (there are some specialty knife steels above that but they take special equipment to properly heat treat, but most blades are made from steels in the .75% (1075, etc.) to 1.00% (01, etc) . Above .85% you have hypereutectoid steel which generally needs soak times and good controllable heat for getting the BEST out of them. At the .85% eutectoid all of the carbon will go into solution, above that the extra carbon forms carbides which don;t necessarily increase hardness, but do increase edge retention and wear. Unheat treated steels such as 1095 aren't brittle but heat treated and leave it untempered or wrongly tempered and it's brittle. Knife blades are generally tempered at around 350°-450°F dependent on type putting them in the 56-62 RC hardness range when finished (files, most good ones anyway, are made from 1095 or W2 are left hard in order to cut steel with and are thus brittle). Springs on the other hand need to be tempered at higher temps and lower hardness for flexibility.
Cast iron, dependent on the type, is in the 2-5% carbon range and is usually brittle.
mattdog - give Aldo a call for 1095 and most other steels. As for Admiral you apparently got the wrong department - their knife dept sells 1095 and others in 6' long bars in various thicknesses and widths - you can even order them on line here http://www.admiralsteel.com/shop/
For some at Admiral reason the two depts don't seem to communicate
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Is there any reason I can't buy one thickness of stock, say whatever the thickest spring I may need is, and then forge a thinner spring from it if need be? Dixie and Brownells have various thicknesses. The thinnest I find on the Admiral site is 1/8", which is fine for some of my needs, but too thick for others. They are selling 5' for what 2' costs at Dixie.
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You can swage it out. Just be careful to not overheat the material, you can burn some of the carbon out when things get bright yellow and sparkly. I try to work it at cherry down to dull red. You also do not want to work it too cold as it is prone to stress faults and cracks. So, if you control your temperature you will get good results.