AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: 2lookindown on April 16, 2013, 03:29:41 AM
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I have been shooting my new build 32 Cal. I couldn't get it to group... It would shoot a 3-4 inch group... I took the gun apart and put it back together a couple times.... I have shot it about 200-250 times.... It wouldn't group at all... I changed the nipple and fixed the problem... Is that normal for a nipple to get shot out or did it just fix it's self ??
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What kind of nipple???? Ampco, hot shot stainless steel what?? Stainless being the best! Hole burned out (enlarged) Even that shouldn't cripple her grouping too awfull much! Hammer coming back to half draw is the symtom and clue to change said nipple....
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I've seen accuracy start south way before the nipple was so blown out that it would lift the hammer. 200 or 300 shots on one is about right for top accuracy in the cap guns I've messed with. If you're going to shoot it on a regular basis, the platinum lined nipples are a bargain.
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Roger, I'm not sure on the kind of nipple it was it was in the drum when I purchased it... I put a new nipple in and it was the best I have ever seen it shoot... I was shooting a 3-4 inch group and came down to a quarter at 25 yards... Know I need to find the best nipple for excessive shooting... ;D ;D
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LH, It has had every bit of 300 plus run through it... It never did group so I guess the nipple was bad when I started ??
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Doesn't this depend on how hot the load is? :-\
Of course you are absolutely correct about the platinum nipples being the best, but I'd love to know if other small caliber shooters have accelerated erosion considering the tiny loads that they typically shoot. I'm ignorant of this subject, but would sure like to know! ???
I guess if you started out with an oversize nipple than all bets are off!
You didn't say at what distance you got the 3"to 4" groups that makes all the difference in the world.
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Nipples can get gas cut but wouldn't think a normal .32 load would burn one out in that few shots and also shouldn't have been bad from the start.
Glad you got it working better, now work on 50 yard targets to see what it is really doing.
TC
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When you buy your rifle nipples, you want the smallest possible flash hole possible in them. First because the cap will fire through the smallest hole and ignite your charge if the flash hole system is properly maintained, and secondly so that the chamber pressure will be better contained by the smallest hole, thus more consistency and accuracy. Hammer blow back is an accuracy and a safety problem. I like those vendors who have a quantity if nipples to select from. Pick up 2 or 6 and look at the flash holes closely and choose wisely. Later get a stranded wire and find a wire strand to use as a hole gauge or use a very small drill.
Eventually as you shoot you will find accuracy dropping off because of nipple flashhole enlargement. That changes the fire in, pressure out consistency of your load. Replace the nipple and go back to your good accuracy. Use gauges to figure out the nipple replacement point. Don't wait till the hammer comes back or your grouping goes away.
Lon
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RedHeart, All shot from the gun were done from the same bench and target placement of 25 yards same rest same shooter....
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TC, I will do the 50 and see in a day or two of having some fun at 25 now that it is hittin where it should....
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Lon, I will buy the best I can get if someone would tell me where to get them I would appreciate it.... I guess I can look up some on line... Are the Ampco that Muzzleloader Builders Supply carries any good ???
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YES YOU CAN HAVE A BAD BRAND NEW NIPPLE.FIRST THING BENCH SHOOTERS DO IF GUN NOT GROUPING PROPERLY IS CHANGE THE NIPPLE. AMPCO OR STAINLESS EITHER ONE ARE FINE.
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Some of the nipples I bought in past had huge passages in them. I supsect they were set up for better ignition of Pyrodex and other substitutes rather than accuracy. The "Spitfire" nipples at Dixie look pretty good -- I ordered a couple for my heavy target/light chunk gun, although I go flint with it unless conditions are terrible. The Ampco nipples also have small passages by their descriptions.
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I have been shooting my new build 32 Cal. I couldn't get it to group... It would shoot a 3-4 inch group... I took the gun apart and put it back together a couple times.... I have shot it about 200-250 times.... It wouldn't group at all... I changed the nipple and fixed the problem... Is that normal for a nipple to get shot out or did it just fix it's self ??
Accuracy can start to degrade in as little as 100 shots. Stainlesssteel nipples are by far better than the factory examples but the TRESO nipple is made of bronze and tends to last even longer and is worth the extra dollar or two.
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Thanks for all the info... Just for snits and giggles today I changed back to the old nipple... It went haywire so it was the nipple... Put the new one back in and it tighten right back up.... I will try some of the other nipples but I looked at on that was a little pricey... It was the platinum lined $59.00 WOW ??
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That $59 nipple should last a very long time in a round ball gun.
I shot 500 grain bullets out of a fine Whitworth for 11 years on
ONE platinum lined nipple.Zero wear on the threads of the nipple
seat as well.
Bob Roller
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A quick question while we are on the subject; those nipples are lined with platinum but what is the the rest of it made from? Stainless, bronze, carbon steel?
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These are custom made and are usually carbon steel.They are mostly used in
Rigby's.Whitworths and other "Thousand yard Specials" that use 90 or more
grains of high quality black powder to goose a 500+grain bullet out past the
front sight.
Bob Roller
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Bob, Is that the going price on the platinum lined nipple ??
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Nipples can get gas cut but wouldn't think a normal .32 load would burn one out in that few shots and also shouldn't have been bad from the start.
Glad you got it working better, now work on 50 yard targets to see what it is really doing.
TC
Here's a nice example of a gas cut nipple. Nipple is AMPCO bronze 1/4X28 with about 35 shots on it. 50 gr Swiss 1 1/2.
340 gr bullet. Didn't check the nipple to make sure it was tight. Rifle put three shots in a 3/4" group at 100 yards.
Noticed the nipple when cleaning at home.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi154.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs277%2Fwesterner_photo%2Fnipple%2Fgascutnipple3_zps76176e13.jpg&hash=1e047481c8ccfa94df1a240662f644fbbebc19cf)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi154.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs277%2Fwesterner_photo%2Fnipple%2Fgascutnipple_zpsa5f46de7.jpg&hash=f4611b32c230e46fdaf3ec5dd9a9647127df7a9c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi154.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs277%2Fwesterner_photo%2Fnipple%2Fgascutnipple2_zps61f50650.jpg&hash=7eb05216ab3fdf7357a39e80e52aaeffa299e7f4)
First time I'd used that heavy a bullet. Will use a stainless,,........... a tight stainless nipple next time.
Joe.
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Frequently they are more.
Bob Roller
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That price is fine. Where did you find them? At that price it will be a bargain compared to regular nipples if you're going to shoot it much.
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Buffalo Arms has them for $59.99.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=161843&CAT=3776
CW
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DogFace, That is where I seen them...
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Westerner said "Here's a nice example of a gas cut nipple. Nipple is AMPCO bronze 1/4X28 with about 35 shots on it. 50 gr Swiss 1 1/2.
340 gr bullet. Didn't check the nipple to make sure it was tight. Rifle put three shots in a 3/4" group at 100 yards.
Noticed the nipple when cleaning at home. "
I was thinking purely of gas cutting the flash hole, never thought of cutting the threads. That should have been blowing your cap off at the last. hope you were wearing eye protection. I'm sure a 345 gr bullet w a 50 gr load would increase pressures - especially with FFFg. That is why I shoot round balls and FFg.
TC
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The carbon was flying the last three shots and I did wonder why. The hammer wasn't going to half cock so figured it was normal. Always wear my shooting glasses. Was the first time shooting that bore diameter bullet. When I went from forty to fifty grains the rifle printed a three shot 3/4 inch group. Surprising to me because I had always heard that a worn nipple always effects accuracy. I think it does but didn't in my case. Three shots not being much of a test either.
The rifle is a percussion schuetzen with 26" twist. I like shooting a bullet the rifle was made for. I shoot round balls in round ball guns. Bullets in bullet guns.
Joe.
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Thanks for the info great reading and knowledge... I thought I was crazy when changing the nipple fixed it...
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While its uncommon at least today it would seem, nipple seats need to be cut so the base of the nipple seals against a flat surface. This can be done with a 5/16" counter bore piloted to fit the threaded hole.
Or the surface of the patent breech must be flat and square with the threaded hole.
A too large hole in the nipple can change the ignition for the worse and cause excess gas leakage.
Some rifles do not shoot well with the "magnum" caps designed for harder to ignite propellants like Pyrodex.
I had a vent liner gas cut the threads years ago. Took some time but it happened.
Dan
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Westerner;
Check the threads in the nipple seat carefully, back in the day I had this nipples twin sister ( only stainless). After telling someone, much more knowledgeable than myself about it, he said to check the drum, sure enough its threads were cut as well. Take care.
Hungry horse
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oops...sorry, I need my glasses checked..I read it as can "Ripple" go bad....
I've never kept a bottle long enough to see...
(sorry..)
tc
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oops...sorry, I need my glasses checked..I read it as can "Ripple" go bad....
I've never kept a bottle long enough to see...
(sorry..)
tc
;D
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Sounds like he's related to Sanford & Son.... He drank the "Ripple".... ;D ;D
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Lon, I will buy the best I can get if someone would tell me where to get them I would appreciate it.... I guess I can look up some on line... Are the Ampco that Muzzleloader Builders Supply carries any good ???
I only buy AMPCO if available, usually in lots of 6 for pistol , and take my wire strand new hole gauge with me. Thus I stay years ahead of replacement needs. I was getting them From Northeast Trade some 5 years ago, as John there had bulk quantities and most buyers don't care about differing flash hole sizes.
VTI gunparts has good common hardened steel factory type nipples that are very serviceable in moderate BP pistol loads. Do some internet searchimg and calling about.
But I can tell you a common musket nipple of cheap steel gives up the ghost in terms of accuracy in 150 shots with a moderate charge, 250 good shots with common stainless, and close to 600 with an ampco. Lon
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Lon, I got my Ampco nipples to day... I hope they work...
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Westerner;
Check the threads in the nipple seat carefully, back in the day I had this nipples twin sister ( only stainless). After telling someone, much more knowledgeable than myself about it, he said to check the drum, sure enough its threads were cut as well. Take care.
Hungry horse
Checked the threads close. All there and in good shape. Old case hardened breech plugs must be tough.
Joe.