AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Herb on September 23, 2013, 03:02:11 AM
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On September 9 I met with Museum Technician Vic Reiman, the firearms specialist at the Montana Historical Society at Helena, Montana. He allowed me to closely inspect Jim Bridger's Hawken. I took photos comparing it to the copy I built, and careful measurements that I need to build an accurate copy. I think he was astonished at how close my copy was, and really paid attention to which rifle was left on the table when I cased mine! I now know where I need to make minor cosmetic changes to my stock coloring and wear and metal wear to more closely copy the original. In turn, I gave him details about the rifle from its stay at the Green River Rifle Works, plus a copy of the 51 measurements we took of the rifle.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/HerbJimBridgerHawken_zpse57c5166.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumButt_zps579c3657.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumMid_zps2ca67ef5.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumForend_zpsd9302ec1.jpg)
My 1 1/8" GRRW barrel was only 31 inches long compared to Jim's 33 inches. This changed my whole forend.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumBarrels_zps80ef97f3.jpg)
Bridger's front sight was broken off. You can enlarge this photo by hitting control and the plus sign, and you will see how jagged it is. It was .2" high compared to .335 to the top of the rear notch, with a 24 7/8" sight radius. The tapered ramrod is a replacement, not original to this rifle. It is too short and too small for the 1/2" entry pipe.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBFrontSight_zps09b31852.jpg)
Why is there no crown to the muzzles of these Hawkens?
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerMuzzle_zps77981d07.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerTGuards_zpscd3c3196.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumCheek_zps7666e4f9.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumWrists_zpse4779eea.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerEntryPipes_zps16b21917.jpg)
The main difference I noted between the two rifles is that the butt plate return on my rifle is only 1.5" but Jim's is 2.4". If I ever build another copy, I'll solder an extension on my return. His lock is 5 inches long, but mine is 4.85", nothing to do about that. Also the double set triggers are spaced differently, nothing to do about that, either. I have more photos, but that is enough for now.
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Oh man, how cool is that! Great job all around.
If you ever decide to publish all of your notes, measurements, photos, etc., put me on the list.
Thanks for the story and pics.
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Here I am,getting a good start on long,slim rifles,and here you go flashing a Hawken in front of me!!have you no shame?You build a fine Hawken,my friend.It is good to see such good pics of Bridgers finally.I am getting the Sam and Jake itch again.I does like em rite smart.Put me down for a copy of the notes.Best regards,Dave
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That's a great job ! Close enough to make the museum nervous,nuf said.hah.Great work and great looking gun.
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Herb, did Bridgers gun have a tappered barrel ?
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No. The 33 3/4" barrel, to the back of the snail break, measures 1.185" just ahead of the snail and 1.12" at the muzzle. That is .065 difference, the thickness of a new penny. But only about .032 per side, the thickness of a couple of shooting patches. Carl Walker at the GRRW said the barrel was not tapered and that you could make that much difference with a file.
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Is the nose cap babbit or what material is used?
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Great information, thank you for the information. I would love to have a copy of your notes and access to the pictures that you took. Can you provide the photo address?
You really did a great job!!!
Thanks
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Herb.....great job. You have taken it as far as you need to. One could look at it and admire it, and they will never really
have the opportunity to compare them side by side. I would be curious as to how much it weighs. My fourth gun was a
hawken which I built for a friend back in 1977, my first year in the barrel business........Don
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Wow...nice work.
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Thanks, all. Little Joe- Greg Roberts at the GRRW when he inspected the rifle in November, 1975 and traced the outline and took measurements and made notes, said "cast iron nosecap". The one I used is a cast steel 1 1/8" from Muzzleloader Builders Supply, order number 29400, a match. Doc White said the nose cap had been silver plated, which wore off, OR was case hardened. The butt plate, lock and plug and tang were, too, also the trigger guard.
Oldarcher, I'll post the rest of the photos here. If you need a direct copy, I can E-mail to you. I have my photos on Photobucket but don't know how to do a photo address.
Don- Greg Roberts' notes said 11 1/4 pounds. My barrel was 2.25" shorter and so my rifle weighs 10 pounds 12 ounces. Though heavy, with that short 13.25" LOP, I can shoot it offhand, some.
The commercial parts I used to build my rifle were the correct ones, with slight differences in lock length and trigger spacing as noted. The butt plate return was not long enough, but the BP was a match, with the inside corner filed square. The 3.8" toe plate is not matched by Track's 4 1/8" long #TP-TC-H-I, but I did not have a picture of it from GRRW. My photo above shows it. It is riveted to the butt plate, and Carl Walker told me they took the two off together. If anyone wants it, I can list the parts and stains I used. I can also post the 60 some dimensions I have for the original rifle. Just a matter of knowing how to get it posted on here.
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Herb, this may be the most detailed published study of a Hawken rifle, and we owe you a big thank you. Your attention to detail is commendable, and your own rifle is a great tribute to this original rifle. Your observation about the triggers is astute - the original's are a little closer together, but it appears to me too, that the bow of the guard is a little longer as well. When I scaled the photos for my own recent build, I found that the commercial guard was about 1/8" shorter than my drawing. There is plenty of metal in the commercial casting, so I heated it red and stretched my guard with a cross peen hammer. Thanks too for the tip on the nose piece. I have had difficulty finding ones that are correct.
I eagerly await more pictures and info - dimensions would be a great boon.
thanks again...Taylor
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I had a colored 8x10" photo of the Bridger rifle that Dave Boender took, and on a photocopier enlarged that to full size based on our available 4.85" Jim Bridger lock. Trouble is, the Jim Bridger lock is actually 5 inches, so my scale was three percent too small. If the top photo was enlarged that much more, about 1/8", my trigger guard would almost exactly match the original length. The original may have had the top back of the loop straightened a little, allowing the triggers to set a little more back in the bow. The rear loop is smaller and straightened out.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerTGScale_zps9967ec9c.jpg)
Jim's triggers may not be set in this photo, I did not check that in the museum.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerTGScale2_zps7c028e93.jpg)
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Great photos Herb. I agree that the forward part of the original trigger guard bow is a little longer than the current commercial offerings. I also think that the original's triggers are a bit closer together...the back triggers bar is a little shorter by maybe 1/16" - 3/32" which makes a little more room in front of the forward trigger. Of course, I may be all wet too....just trying to understand the nuances of the Bridger rifle.
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Herb, can you give me the contact info for Muzzleloader Builder's Supply...my info is redundant.
Taylor
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Taylor
mbssales@hotmail.com
This is ML Builder Supplies.
Dan
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Hello Herb,
thanks a lot for this super report! It's really great to see and almost feel an original Hawken that close. When it comes to me building one mid term this post will be my guideline!
thanks a lot
Uwe
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Taylor,
I talked to Terri Jo today at MB Builders Supply. The phone is 1-208-397-3008.
Bob Roller
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Thanks guys! I have a nice catalogue, but it's prior to the turn-over.
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Thanks for the responses. I have been to MBS at Aberdeen, Idaho and like doing business with Ryan and Terri Jo. Here are some more pictures. The rib rivets are at the very ends of the underrib, which has a narrow curve. Spacing is muzzle, 3.85" back, 9.5" and 19 1/8", at the very end. Rod pipes are .520" ID, rolled from sheet iron..
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerUnderrib_zps841eceee.jpg)
The buttplate is riveted to the toeplate.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumBP_zpse71dd595.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBToeplate_zpsff0cfa58.jpg)
The keys enter from the left, are pinned, and the ends are slotted.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumLeftRearKey_zpsa50e69bd.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerBellies_zps662202f4.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumStocks_zpsa8311666.jpg)
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Here are some more. Note the color cased plug and tang, whatever color the barrel was originally.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerTang_zps29607165.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumAngle_zpsca9b3566.jpg)
I did not have a color photo of the left side to guide my wear coloring.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumMidLeft_zpsfb523cb0.jpg)
The tapered ramrod is .500 at the front and .270 inside the stock and too short. It would fall out of the thimbles or break in use and is not the one Jim Bridger used.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumLeftForend_zps24a31f47.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JBMuseumLeftAngle_zps42321b20.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerSHawkenStamp_zpsf5f90c82.jpg)
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Wow! Thank you for being so generous and allowing a close up tour of history. I always wanted to see Jim Bridger's rifle up close.
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Thanks Herb,
Its great to have those pictures for a reference. You did a good job on copying Jim's rifle!
Rob
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Interesting it used a 1/2” rammer. Is this common for Hawkens? Seems almost all current made ones I’ve seen use a 3/8” rammer. I’ve always wondered why.
Also, what do we know about the lacquer finish applied to the rifle?
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This is a great example of the last of the Hawken rifles. Given its wear I suspect it dates to about the time Bridger was getting paid a $125 a month (a LOT of money at the time) guiding the expedition to survey the Missouri & Yellowstone country starting in 1859. Good chance he bought it new at that time. Given his activity in the West till almost 1870 it could be a Gemmer made rifle. Its a great ML hunting rifle. These are probably the best for this use with the long tangs and trigger bar. Especially if spending time horse back. But it really does not show a lot of wear. Given the amount of country Bridger rode over from 1859 till he retied to Missouri. That soft oil brown varnish is not very hard or wear resistant when simply painted on the surface.
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Smokey, the Bridger, W.S. Hawken, Liver Eating Johnson, Pistol Grip and Carson all have inside diameter rod pipes about .480 to .535, by actual measurement. The entry pipes are .510, .5?, .480, .480, .490 (Carson) and .330 for the capbox Hawken, a .50 caliber, page 388 of Gordon's book. Nelson Museum of the West in Cheyenne, S. Hawken .500 inside and .475 entry pipe inside. Lincoln, NE ("Robidoux") Hawken .515 ID and entry pipe .485, my measurements.
The finish is probably a varnish with a dark brown color added.
Dan, I agree. There is very little damage to Bridger's stock, except the front of the left lock panel is worn off, probably saddle wear. I recently discovered that the toe had been broken off, accounting for the toe plate and butt plate being pinned together. The toe is set forward, giving less pitch down to the muzzle.
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I suspect the reason there is no crown on the Hawken rifles is that they were coned. At least according to what I've read.
Nice copy by the way, and great pictures.
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Herb- did you get a really close look at the muzzle. I know you got a close-up picture. What I am referring to, was the muzzle filed out like on most Jaeger rifles?
The bottom groove and one at 8 & 9 o'clock appear to be filed larger, but not sure. It kinda looks that way and would make sense.
(https://i.ibb.co/41XmB0C/Bridger-Muzzle-zps77981d07.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLvmy1n)
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No, I didn't examine the bore. Wish I had. The J&S Hawken at Helena has the same kind of muzzle treatment, and my photo of it shows more detail. When GRRW had the Bridger rifle at their shop and Greg Roberts made a detailed drawing of it, he noted "muzzle not filed square", or about that. You can see that the bottom half of the muzzle is shiney and the top half darker, indicating that the top half slopes backward. But the muzzle is filed with the lands lower and then the grooves filed back in lower yet, for only maybe 3/8" at a guess. The J&S shows this.
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Herb,
Thank you very much for your time and attention to detail on this post. Fantastic all around. I would be very interested in how you finished and aged the wood and metal to get such a close look. Thank you again
Zack t
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What is a "soft oil brown varnish" and how might one go about recreating it on a rifle?
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He's probably referring to a traditional oil varnish with some color added. You can read more about it here.
https://www.muzzleblasts.com/MBO.Library/MBO.V5N2/MBO.V5N2A1.shtml (https://www.muzzleblasts.com/MBO.Library/MBO.V5N2/MBO.V5N2A1.shtml)
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Good job Herb !!
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Here is the Kit Carson Hawken muzzle as photographed by my friend Kevin Meyer.
(https://i.ibb.co/K2Z3RB9/KC-Muzzle-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Here is the Kit Carson Hawken muzzle as photographed by my friend Kevin Meyer.
(https://i.ibb.co/K2Z3RB9/KC-Muzzle-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
VERY deep grooves! Nice!
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The Bridger butt plate and cheek piece. The toe plate is riveted to the butt plate. My question is did only Hawken do this rivet?
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Thanks Herb, that is what I thought I was seeing.
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The Bridger butt plate and cheek piece. The toe plate is riveted to the butt plate. My question is did only Hawken do this rivet?
It is a repair, the only one I've seen. Any gunsmith could make this repair, it is not a Hawken feature. The Hawken copy I show here, I made this rivet repair, too.
Here are photos of the Bridger butt plate and the effect it had on muzzle pitch.
(https://i.ibb.co/zQ43pw6/Drop-heel-rulers-Bridger-photo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q7rHKwJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/m8tWxnt/Butt-plate-square-Bridger-photo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VmD4KFD)
Here is Track's Bridger buttplate showing the difference in the curve. The TOW is correctly shaped except the corner has to be filed back and the edge thinned a lot.
(https://i.ibb.co/LhH4Y3q/DSC06219.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FqCGmFf)
(https://i.ibb.co/hVV0Nzv/Pitch-Bridger-photo-Butt-to-Muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w44tqm1)
Six and a half inches pitch at the muzzle.
(https://i.ibb.co/Tc6NSFY/Pitch-Bridger-Photo-Muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wyV2XxB)
The Kit Carson Hawken
(https://i.ibb.co/1qr9hz0/Pitch-Butt-Carson.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Np0GRT)
Only 2 3/4 inch pitch at the muzzle.
(https://i.ibb.co/GHVCscX/Pitch-Muzzle-Carson.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sWFs5yh)