AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Tutorials => Gunmaking tools and techniques- metal shaping => Topic started by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 06, 2014, 06:59:26 AM
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In conjunction with this pistol grip Hawken I'm currently building, I joined the under-rib permanently to the barrel this afternoon. In the past, I have used one of two methods to do this job, ie: 6x48 screws or soft solder. I joined this one with rivets.
This rib is from MBS and is milled hollow on the inside, with milled concave sides as well. It is already considerably lighter than the cold rolled ribs sold by purveyors of muzzle loading parts. But I have observed by studying photos of original Hawken rifles, that the sides of the rib are usually flat rather than concave. This commercial rib is not only concave, it has a wide flat portion along the edge that contacts the octagonal bottom flat of the barrel. So I glued the rib to a 1/2" rod of steel with CA and filed off the concave and flat to create much more authentic and pleasing side flats on the rib. I polished the sides and the concave rod groove to 180 grit abrasive.
The pegs that will become the anchors for the rib I made from a 3" galvanized finishing nail. I removed the galvanizing with a file in the lathe, then blued it with cold blue to ensure that all of the non-ferrous stuff was gone. The nail finished at .127" I cut the pegs to .430" long, and in the lathe, I made a cut with a parting tool into which the barrel's steel would eventually be staked.
I had to cut off about 4" of the rib to make it fit my project, so I made another peg, drilled a .128" hole through the practice rib, countersunk the concave rod groove with a 1/4" 82 degree countersink, drilled a 1/8" hole 1/8" deep into a scrap piece of barrel stub, set the rib over it, and riveted it down. I'm glad I did a dry run, because the punch I used was not too easy to control, and I ended up putting marks on the rib that would be difficult to remove. The result pleased me in that the rib was very tightly joined to the barrel stub and the rivet was easy to dress off.
So having this success, I proceeded to drill four holes into the rib proper, countersunk the holes, and then temporarily glued it to the barrel for starting the drill into the barrel for the studs. I then removed the rib, and finished drilling the holes 1/8" deep. I didn't bother to make a flat bottom in these holes, though that would have perhaps been a good idea.
With the holes in place, I tapped the pegs into them, and staked the barrel steel down to set them permanently. Then I set the rib over the pegs, and starting at the breech end, riveted the peg into the countersink(s). Once all four were done, I used a rat tail file to dress off the heads, and polished again to 180 grit. I'm happy with the result. ...much less work than soldering.
Here's the same story in pictures...I'll repair the last pictures in a few minutes...
(https://preview.ibb.co/cbiW9H/100_4015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jByL3c)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nrTypH/100_4016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cxLpwx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kDTL3c/100_4017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hG0B9H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nuY9wx/100_4018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8FNGx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jywwbx/100_4020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c1Gwbx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iaNDOc/100_4021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nD9tOc)
Two tools that are worth mentioning here, are the staking punch I made, and the method of riveting. The punch is simply an old nail set that is ground off to about 3/32" across the end, with a 1/8" groove filed into a flat that I ground into one side. This enables me to get the punch right up close to the peg, and move barrel steel into the recess of the peg. The riveting was done with two ball peen hammers - a very small one and a bigger one. I held the ball of the smaller of the two over the end of the peg, floating so I could control where it struck the head of the peg, and striking it with the bigger hammer's face. Thus I was able to move the peg's metal into the countersink with some precision, without putting craters in the concave rod groove of the rib.
It took practically as long to type and post these images, as it did to do the job. The next one will go faster too.
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Excellent description and photos Taylor - that's a first rate job and well thought out. I too have used the "small hammer big hammer" method for peening in tight areas, plenty of control that way. By the looks of things here your rivets will hold indefinitely. I particularly like how you relieved the nails for the barrel material to anchor into. Thanks for sharing
-Eric
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Thanks Eric. I posted this so that others who might have been thinking about using this system, would see that's it's not that big a deal, and the results are great. To create the relief for staking, I set the parting tool in the cross feed at a little bit of an angle, then advanced it with the diagonal feed. You could do the same thing with a file...it doesn't need a lathe for that job.
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I wish I could see some pictures :(
I have been pondering just how I was going to attach my under rib to the Hawken in process.
Fred
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Thank you for the pictures and description. You wouldn't happen to have a picture of what you did to the actual under rib. I'm assuming your going to add the silver soldier after riveting the under rib.
Thanks again
d-a
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That's a very good description Taylor, but the pictures do not show, in stead a message that the 'person moved or deleted this image' shows up.
Robby
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d-a...there is no need for solder, and if I did solder it, it would be with very low temperature solder with 2% silver. But the tension of the rivets alone will do the job.
I will use the same silver bearing soft solder to join the rod pipes to the rib...that's next.
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Thanks Taylor S. for sharing your method of riveting an under-rib and additional "Great" pictures. AJ.
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Sir, how thick is the barrel where you counter sunk the pin? It looks very nice, you can't even tell where the rivet is. A thumbs up Sir!!
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thanks for the pics.....riveting the rib onto the bbl is probably the easiest method....no chance for a broken tap and having to use a bottoming tap to get maximum amount of threads and soldering is a big job if a large oven isn't available. Makes for a neat job.....Fred
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Taylor, would a regular uncoated common nail bo the job? Just won dering why you used the galviized nail.
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Fred, I used the galvanized nail because it was the right diameter. I wanted a good metal to metal fit in the holes I drilled into the barrel. So the pegs are a few thou' oversize, and had to to tapped into the holes. The galvanize (zink?) was easy to remove. I think muriatic acid will do the same, but I have none.
The barrel is a Coleraine barrel, tapered 1 1/8" - 1" over 36", and I cut off 2" from the muzzle. It is .62 cal. Sinking the holes 1/8" into the bottom flat leaves lots of steel between the end of the peg and the bore, especially since the barrel gets larger as you go toward the breech. I could give you the exact number of thousandths of an inch, but it doesn't matter. I left enough that the barrel is not jeopardized or dimpled in the bore from the staking process.
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Really excellent tutorial master Taylor, thank you. I had decided to rivet the under-rib on my Plains rifle and this is just how I will accomplish that.
dp
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d-a...there is no need for solder, and if I did solder it, it would be with very low temperature solder with 2% silver. But the tension of the rivets alone will do the job.
I will use the same silver bearing soft solder to join the rod pipes to the rib...that's next.
Taylor
I was just referring to the silver solder found on the Hawkens to fill the opening left by the hollow under rib. Most I've seen put it in prior to riveting the under rib to the barrel.
d-a
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Very good tutorial and the pictures are very helpful. Would love to see a picture of the staking tool you made, as well. Thanks,
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I would think that the same technique could be used for barrel key or pin staples. Turn a groove near both ends of a short rod, bend the ends over, place the ends in the holes drilled in the barrel and stake. I bet that would be much more solid then the staples offered for sale commercially with just one little toe.
David
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d-a mentioned the solder filled end of the rib. I have seen a treatment on I think two Hawken ribs that I thought was a nice touch. The rib at the front end appeared to be solid. No inside groove. the rib was stopped about 1/16 inch from the muzzle , the end was rounded and the side groove was continued around the curve and down the other side. I had the barrel off but can't remember what it looked like on the back end. But it appeared to be solid. I have give this effect to two ribs by just welding up the end of store bought rib.
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When those barrel loops first became available, I thought I'd better make one to see how strong they were. So I did as David said, and bent a piece of mild steel rod over a flat bar and filed feet into the ends. I drilled two matching holes into a 1" square bar of steel, and staked the loop down. Then I slipped a BIG screw driver into the loop and tried to pry it back out. I could not. The loop tore before the feet came loose. The commercial offerings are very very delicate by comparison I've used dozens of them without failure.
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Louis, now I see what we are referring to...the end of the hollow rib on all half stock rifles of this period are filled with lead or some alloy.
I shall do the same with the muzzle end on this one, but the other end I'm leaving open to let it breathe. On my personal rifle, I closed both ends, but on that one, I had soft soldered the rib to the barrel, so there were no openings for moisture to creep in under the rib.
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I would think that the same technique could be used for barrel key or pin staples. Turn a groove near both ends of a short rod, bend the ends over, place the ends in the holes drilled in the barrel and stake. I bet that would be much more solid then the staples offered for sale commercially with just one little toe.
David
That's how I was taught to do it. I've never had one come out, and the times I've tried to remove them, it was always easier to cut them off and draw-file the stubs than to try to pull them out.
I do like Taylor's use of a modified nailset--going to have to remember that one. It looks much better than the punch I've used in the past.
I've always been nervous about striking a hammer face with another hammer face, so I use a punch with a rounded end for riveting jobs like this. It works (would work better if I practiced more).
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I'll post a picture of both the punch I used to stake the pegs, and the two hammers I used for the riveting. I didn't strike the hammers together hard enough to create any danger...lots of little hits to move the steel around and fill the counterbored holes.
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Taylor, I had a shop teacher in 7th grade who would slap you on the back of the head if he saw you strike two hammer faces together. I don't worry about damaging the tools--I worry about Twig sneaking up and smacking me if I did it!
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Habu, I know why your teacher 'discouraged' hammer on hammer. Kids like to crack them together hard to hear the contact. There is a danger when you do this, that a piece of one hammer or the other will fly away and cause an injury, and that's something a shop teacher cannot have happen. I taught shop in high school for over ten years, and I know what the wee dears are capable of.
But this contact is very light - no danger, and no whack on the back of the head.
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(https://preview.ibb.co/gNhr9H/100_4028.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jw17ic)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cTu4UH/100_4029.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gwE4UH)
This is a picture of the nail set I made into a staking punch. I used a 3/32" chain saw file to cut the concave groove - tough but it worked.
And here's a couple of the pair of hammers I used to do the riveting.
The phone is just to give a size comparison.
(https://preview.ibb.co/foZtOc/100_4031.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gDRUwx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c5z4UH/100_4032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/feJL3c)
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Some of these "wee" dears can knock the horn off an anvil with a rubber mallet.
Bob Roller
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Taylor..........a nice clean job, like most of your stuff. Pete Allan used to make some neat cast staples, over the years I used
a lot of them. I even modified a nail set as you did, you stand much less chance of dimpling the bore with something like this............Don
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Some of these "wee" dears can knock the horn off an anvil with a rubber mallet.
Bob Roller
I never damaged an anvil, but I did borrow one from the shop one evening. Unfortunately, being a typical air-headed 14 year old kid, I went and forgot it in the school office, accidentally trapping the school board in a meeting room. Since then I've learned to remember where I leave anvils.
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Taylor,
This tutorial couldn't have come at a better time. It was time to install the rib on the Vincent I'm working on and I just spent the better part of two days trying to decide if I should affix it using solder or screws. Well, last evening I tried your method and I have to say, that was the greatest thing since sliced bread. In a matter of an hour or two I had everything installed and dressed up and it looks superb. That just goes to show, some of us old dogs can still learn new tricks. Thank you.
Gary
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You bet Gary. One thing I could comment on that I hope will help others who would like to use this system, is the size of the pegs themselves. That size must depend entirely on how wide the concave rod channel is in the rib. The narrower it is, the less in diameter the pegs should be. You must keep the countersink on the holes for the pegs, within the confines of the ridges on the groove. It would be difficult to get a rivet to fill the countersink if it rides too far up that groove. And of course, the countersink is going to want to cut metal away up on the sides of the groove more than down in the valley, so this compounds the issue. I tried a short cut off piece of scrap first, before I committed to the actual rib and barrel.
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Taylor
Do you happen to have a picture of your countersunk hole in the under rib?
I might add this is great info and should be a tutorial
d-a
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Nope, but I'll make one and post it here.
(https://preview.ibb.co/h9Kh1x/100_4041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ctxD8c)
I used a 1/4" counter sink, though that likely doesn't matter as long as it has no more than an 82 degree taper...a little shallower might work better. This is my practice piece, so it hasn't been polished.
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Taylor,
thank you for showing how you made your tool for swaging the pins, I allways held my breath when tapping the holes in the under rib myself I can see where your solution will reduce the( PUCKER FACTOR) a lot on installation a lot.
I am going to use your solution on the rifle I am working on right now ;) ;)
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Thanks for the pics of the staking punch--I've got one very much like it now. I even remembered to put it in the drawer with the other tools I use for installing barrel tenons.
At the same time, I modified another (with a flat cut away rather than concave) to use to tighten rifle sights in their dovetails. I never cared for the marks left by a centerpunch.
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Wow, thanks for sharing your knowledge Taylor. I humbly ask what glue do you use for temporary situation.
Dave
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Cyanoacrylate thick. I just applied it here and there sparingly, 'cause it holds very well. A sharp wrap with a block of wood and a hammer will shear the glue (sometimes) but in my case, I had to apply heat with a propane torch to get the glue to release.
I used the glue lots in the past when drilling and tapping those solid ribs to Hawken barrels. I use only hollow ribs now.
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Taylor
How about showing how you attach the thimbles to the hollow rib.
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I use only hollow ribs now.
Why do you use only hollow ribs now?
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I use only hollow ribs now.
Why do you use only hollow ribs now?
Lighter, HC. Many reasons.
Dan
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I use only hollow ribs now.
Why do you use only hollow ribs now?
Lighter, HC. Many reasons.
Dan
Thanks
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Thanks Dan. Yes to both. The hollow steel rib adds only a fraction of the weight to the barrel that a solid one does. And I find them easier in a lot of ways to attach to the barrel.
I'll do a little 'tutorial' on how I go about joining the thimble to the rib. Just give me a few hours this afternoon. I might need a nap after having got up at 3:45 am to watch the gold medal Olympic hockey game - worth it though!!
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Moderators: if you think this little 'tutorial' might be helpful, pls move it or add it to that forum.
The ramrod pipes or thimbles are attached to the rib prior to the rib being joined to the barrel. the strongest joint is or course, silver solder, but soft solder works fine, and is easier to clean up. If you are joining the rib to the barrel with soft solder, it's probably a good idea to join the pipes to the rib with silver bearing or higher temp solder.
This series of notes and photos is on a waste piece of barrel and rib; the rib is already riveted to the barrel, so I used an unsupported end of the rib for this project.
The first task is to make the pipe itself. I drilled a piece of 1/2" round bar stock in the lathe ending with a 7/16" drill bit, so the walls of the pipe are only .0325" or a little less. A little thicker is fine, though original pipes are usually quite thin. Here's the pipe laying on top of the rib:
(https://preview.ibb.co/dHq5Mx/100_4058.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mjNwTc)
You could go ahead and solder this tube to the hollow of the rib, and it would work, but it wouldn't be 'nice'. What I look for on half stocked rifles is a ramrod that has no gap between the wood and the rib. To create that effect, and what appears to be the pipe 'growing' right out of the rib, you file a flat on the pipe to correspond with a flat that you file in the rib. I do the rib first, cutting through the concave trough until I get a flat clean rectangle, as in the photo. then I file a flat on the pipe to match. When they are laid together, the trough in the rib will be continuous with the hollow of the pipe.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c5m1uH/100_4059.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hUqSZH)
This is an image of the pipe just laying on top of the rib so both flats show well. Next tin both the flats. I used silver bearing electrical solder here and ordinary solder flux. I rub the nose of a wad of four ought steel wool in the flux, and when the solder sticks to the steel, I rub it with the steel wool and flux, and it cleans off everything extra and leaves a completely covered and uniform flat, well tinned, as in this image.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ieQBuH/100_4060.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jSSfoc)
Now wire the pipe to the rib so it's straight in line with the trough, and apply the torch gently to both until the solder flows. Fill the joint along both sides of the pipe and the rib - the extra gets cleaned up soon. The following image shows the pipe wired down, and a length of solder laying on the trough, ready for the heat.
(https://preview.ibb.co/m9gjEH/100_4061.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cGGHZH)
I'll finish this up in the morning...good night.
Here's the pipe soldered to the rib, before clean-up.
(https://preview.ibb.co/nuaBuH/100_4062.jpg) (https://ibb.co/i26HZH)
Clean-up is done with a scraper, chisel, or in this case a flat die sinker's chisel. The excess solder is easily scraped away down to the steel. Be careful not to create a chatter in the steel...that is tedious to polish out. After scraping, I rubbed it down with 80 grit, then 180 grit, abrasive cloth. You can take the polishing as far as you want. Use cold blue on a q-tip to ensure you have removed all of the solder, as you won't be able to brown or blue through solder.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hi61uH/100_4063.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bK1ZEH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fHgqoc/100_4064.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hpGO8c)
And finally, a look into the pipe. This whole process, including making the pipe in the lathe took less than a half hour, and the time spent is well worth the outcome. How deeply one has to cut into the rib to make the rectangular flat depends upon how thick your pipe is. The idea is to make the trough of the rib continuous with the tube. I figured out how this was done when one day, I had an English shotgun in the shop whose first pipe had come away on only one side. It was easy to see that the tube had been filed through, and that it was then soldered to a rectangular cut -out in the rib.
(https://preview.ibb.co/iX3WuH/100_4067.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kToxZH)
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Taylor you answer questions that I never would have thought to ask. Thanks.
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Here's a couple of examples of half stocked rifles with hollow ribs and steel pipes attached in this manner.
First is my own Hawken rifle..
(https://preview.ibb.co/eaXKgx/100_1398.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f0QuEH)
...and this is the one on the bench presently.
(https://preview.ibb.co/itdEEH/100_4025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hzcVoc)
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Thanks Taylor for the tips. The cold blue to show any leftover solder is sure a good idea as when you dress the solder off the bright steel and solder just look too much alike.
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Excellent write up and great pictures as usual. I hope this gets in the tutorials
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Thanks for all the tips and the step-by-step. I just hope you're not giving away all your secrets. Probably doesn't really matter, because I know I'll never be giving you any competition in the gun-building arena. ;) It really is all about the execution, isn't it?
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Moderators if you haven't already please make this a tutorial.
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I'm bringing this thread to the top again, in hopes that it is the simplest way to answer a new thread on virtually the same subject.