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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: 40Haines on February 21, 2009, 11:07:52 PM

Title: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: 40Haines on February 21, 2009, 11:07:52 PM

Sorry guys, there used to be some info here on this subject.

Can't seem to find it now.

In a couple weeks I will be staining a Sycamore stock on the current project.

I just wanted to see if there was anybodies experience to build on before I start my test strips.

This would be good - Maybe a little darker

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi34.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd104%2Fcptleo1%2Fsysamore.jpg&hash=d8a33053dd19adcd47256c187d367e5134674c28)

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Metalshaper on February 22, 2009, 03:11:08 AM

THAT is my Buddy's Gun.. Search for posts by MRW, to find his profile and send him a PM.. IF you have trouble locating it.. hit me a note offline,, and I'll give you his e-mail addy.

and to up the ante a bit.. I'll send him a note, to come in here and find you!  ;)

That should do it, I think???

Respect Always
Metalshaper

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on February 22, 2009, 04:13:19 AM

I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on working sycamore, and which type of sycamore it was.  American sycamore - the big flaky white trees along streets and riverbanks?  Or Euopean 'sycamore' which is something a bit different I think?  Have seen some wild english 'sycamore' which is also sold as curly english maple.  ???

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Acer Saccharum on February 22, 2009, 05:08:31 AM

Sycamore and maple are related, I believe. American Sycamore is also called buttonwood, for its delicious woodturning attribute. I think the English variety is called Plane tree, or something like that. http://www.2020site.org/trees/plane.html

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: 40Haines on February 22, 2009, 08:38:46 AM

I have had this blank for 30years or more and it was old when I got it.

It is infact American Sycamore, 1/4 sawn

I believe some call it lacewood but I think that is a western US variety.

The wood cuts really well (Bandsaw-Router).

Your hand tools need to be very very sharp and you work pretty slowly.

Splintering has not been a problem.

I tried a little carving on a scrap piece and the wood goes from hard to soft to hard very quickly and I am afraid of a lot of chipping with the detail work so there won't be much carving going on, I wish I was a better carver, but, have learned to live with my short cumin's

I was thinking of using tea (source of Tanic acid) and then fuming the wood with ammonia but I don't think it will bring out enough pop in the wood.

I have been told AF will make it to dark and vinegar/iron is just about perfect.

I think first I will just try a sample with 4-5 coats of Tung oil and use that for a base line and go from there.

I like to use 5-6 coats of highly diluted LMF stains and have had good results going that route, but to be honest, you really don't know how that will end up - although it always looks pretty.

With some help from the members, a little luck and some crossed fingers it will turn out just fine.

The next project I plan to see what happens when you use a 400 year old piece of elm - but first things first.

Thanks guys !

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: George F. on February 23, 2009, 04:06:46 AM

I was told at a lumber yard that deals with just about all species of wood, both exotic and domestic, that Lacewood was a sort of Austriallian oak.   ...Geo.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Stophel on February 23, 2009, 11:41:27 PM

American Sycamore wood doesn't look like English sycamore, which looks all the world like maple.

On a TV show, the guy was turning a wooden bowl.  He said the wood was sycamore, and I thought, "That ain't sycamore, that's curly maple, sycamore is orangey with zillions of rays", but then he said it was English sycamore, which is something else.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Acer Saccharum on February 24, 2009, 01:05:46 AM

I looked up in my tree book, and then forgot almost everything except that: English sycamore has 'acer' in its Latin name, because the leaves look like maple leaves. So it's not a relative, just a look-alike in the leaf department.

Stoph, you going to Dixon's? I'll share a sixer of Yueglings with ya. Oh, please say yes.

(here we go again)

Dixon's......huzzay! Hurrah!

Acer

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Stophel on February 24, 2009, 01:17:54 AM

I really don't think I'm going to be able to this year.  I would like to, though.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: MRW on February 25, 2009, 06:10:02 PM

Ok finally had the cyber police get this site unblock , they installed a new filter and it got all of my BP sites blocked, you know how it is in schools we sure wouldn't want kids to be able to research a worthwhile hobby and develop interests in something other than Xbox games. Anyway that pic is of my UH rifle and the stock is plain old Kansas sycamore that is 1/4 sawn. I have made two stock from this plank the first one was for a mule ear rifle for my son which i stained with a tar paint thinner stain which looked ok but I then redid somethings on the rifle and the second time used aqua fortis on it which is what the UH has on it as well I'll try and post some more pics of the stocks as soon as I can acess photobucket which is also blocked where I have the pics stored

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Robert Wolfe on February 25, 2009, 06:10:17 PM

OK. In England "sycamore" or "sycamore maple" is Acer pseudoplatanus (a true maple). American sycamore is Platanus occidenatlis. In Europe, the genus Platanus (our sycamore) is called "plane tree." Note the species name of the sycamore maple is "false plane tree".

This is why scientists use fixed latin names rather than variable common names. I know, more than you wanted to know!

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Mike R on February 25, 2009, 07:22:28 PM

I have used american sycamore on a knife handle and stained it with Feibings leather dye--worked for me. 

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: T.C.Albert on February 25, 2009, 09:32:57 PM

I have seen where traditional hand tool makers refered to "plane tree" wood (American Sycamore) as an "unfortunate" choice of wood to make wood planes out of...that scared me out of ever trying it for much...but what gives? Why the name if it wont make suitable planes? Sure would like to know the deal...( no pun intended...I know "deal" is English pine right?)
TCA

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: MRW on February 25, 2009, 09:59:56 PM

I am guessing here but plain probably means what it looks like plank sawn. Unless you 1/4 saw it  straight grained sycamore has about zero grain pattern just look at the inside of a old set of dresser drawers and look how plain that wood is most of it is sycamore

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Stophel on February 25, 2009, 11:22:47 PM

Pallet makers around here use Sycamore a good bit.  Pretty much it ain't used for anything else.  Light orange-ish color, FULL of rays and rather gaudy.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: rich pierce on February 25, 2009, 11:25:14 PM

Nice thing about sycamore is it doesn't split easily for awood of medium hardness (about like red maple, maybe a little softer than some red maple).  I've tried splitting it for firewood and it's a challenge.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Ben I. Voss on February 26, 2009, 06:11:00 AM

I remember reading an article in a gun magazine back in the seventies(?) about a guy who built a five or six pound 458 magnum bolt action and used sycamore for the stock because he said it wouldn't split under that type of recoil- don't know about that, but obviously he had no nerve endings in his upper body!!

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: northmn on February 26, 2009, 02:53:01 PM

If splitting were a problem one can go to elm also.  I cut enough firewood to vouch for that.  As we do not have any Sycamore in my country I cannot say much about it.  As for an alternative wood, I still look at some Aspen firewood chunks that have curl in them that makes a builder drool.  Have been considering working one out for a gunstock, even if they are a little soft.  Would make a nice squirrel rifle maybe?

DP

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: rich pierce on February 26, 2009, 05:06:36 PM

Alternative stock woods are usually alternative woods for good reasons.  Aspen is too soft.  It would dent very easily even if it was possible to inlet well into such a soft wood.  It would be much more likely to break if you fell with it etc.

Dimensional stability is another factor important in guns- resistance to warping and swelling and contracting with changes in moisture, etc.

When considering alternative woods for gunstocking, it's good to see what the wood is normally used for.    A gunstock is a tool handle, perhaps, and so a wood strong enough for a tool handle is a good place to start, then look at the other characteristics of the wood.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Stophel on February 26, 2009, 11:08:46 PM

Anybody used Hornbeam or Hophornbeam?  I know it's supposed to be wickedly hard.  I've never seen it...well, I've seen it plenty while still in tree form, I've never seen the wood though.  What does it look like?  I can imagine it's probably pretty plain white...

I've seen persimmon (looks like really plain, light colored coarse walnut), and it apparently was used on occasion.  Supposedly, mulberry makes a decent stock wood, but I've never seen it either.  I'm told it is kinda yellowish colored wood.

 ???

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Robby on February 26, 2009, 11:18:37 PM

I have used hop hornbeam for bows. It is a pretty, plain, nondescript, pale, white. Tough as all get out. I have never seen a tree big enough to make a gun stock, seems like it would be a little heavy too, maybe they get a bigger diameter in warmer climes.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Acer Saccharum on February 26, 2009, 11:27:48 PM

Never saw a hornbeam much bigger than 4" dia around here.

Hickory, grows really well here in the NE.
How about Yellow Birch? That's a great hardwood, probably work nicely for a military jaeger.
Red, Sugar, Silver maple abound.

I guess you have to look at what wood was available in the region where your gun was originally built, if you are following historical precedent.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Acer Saccharum on February 26, 2009, 11:29:08 PM

Maybe Holly. Anybody ever try that?

Basswood is soft, along with Poplar. They would work if that's all you had.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: rich pierce on February 26, 2009, 11:46:06 PM

Many woods that might otherwise be suitable are not often used because good sized sawlogs are not available in quantity.  Other woods are hard to work or are plain (which is fine for military guns).  Red elm might be a good stock wood in many ways, for example, but the interlocking grain makes it hard to work.  I am making a yoke out of elm and it is a pain to work compared to some other hardwoods.  But it probably will never split.

here's a good site for some physical properties of different woods.  Most stock woods have specific gravities of .45-.60.
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/strength_table.htm (http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/strength_table.htm)

Tree Species   SG   Elasticity (E)       Compress. Parallel    Compress. Perpen.     Max Shear Strength    (0-1.0)   10^6 psi      psi   psi   psi Alder, Red   0.41   1.38      5,820   440   1,080 Ash, Black                   0.49   1.60      5,970   760   1,570 Ash, Blue                   0.58   1.40      6,980   1,420   2,030 Ash, Green   0.56   1.66      7,080   1,310   1,910 Ash, Oregon   0.55   1.36      6,040   1,250   1,790 Ash, White   0.60   1.74      7,410   1,160   1,910 Aspen, Bigtooth   0.39   1.43      5,300   450   1,080 Aspen, Quaking   0.38   1.18      4,250   370   850 Basswood   0.37   1.46      4,730   370   990 Beech, American   0.64   1.72      7,300   1,010   2,010 Birch, Paper   0.55   1.59      5,690   600   1,210 Birch, Sweet   0.65   2.17      8,540   1,080   2,240 Birch, Yellow   0.62   2.01      8,170   970   1,880 Butternut                   0.38   1.18      5,110   460   1,170 Cherry, Black   0.50   1.49      7,110   690   1,700 Chestnut, American   0.43   1.23      5,320   620   1,080 Cottonwood,    0.34   1.1      4,020   300   790 Cottonwood, Black   0.35   1.27      4,500   300   1,040 Elm, Eastern   0.40   1.37      4,910   380   930 Elm, American   0.50   1.34      5,520   690   1,510 Elm, Rock                   0.63   1.54      7,050   1,230   1,920 Elm, Slippery   0.53   1.49      6,360   820   1,630 Hackberry   0.53   1.19      5,440   890   1,590 Hickory, Bitternut   0.66   1.79      9,040   1,680   - Hickory, Nutmeg   0.6   1.70      6,910   1,570   - Hickory, Pecan   0.66   1.73      7,850   1,720   2,080 Hickory, Water   0.62   2.02      8,600   1,550   - Hickory, Mockernut   0.72   2.22      8,940   1,730   1,740 Hickory, Pignut   0.75   2.26      9,190   1,980   2,150 Hickory, Shagbark   0.72   2.16      9,210   1,760   2,430 Hickory, Shellbark   0.69   1.89      8,000   1,800   2,110 Honeylocust   -   1.63      7,500   1,840   2,250 Locust, Black   0.69   2.05      10,180   1,830   2,480 Magnolia                  0.48   1.82      6,310   570   1,340 Magnolia, Southern   0.50   1.40      5,460   860   1,530 Maple, Bigleaf   0.48   1.45      5,950   750   1,730 Maple, Black   0.57   1.62      6,680   1,020   1,820 Maple, Red   0.54   1.64      6,540   1,000   1,850 Maple, Silver   0.47   1.14      5,220   740   1,480 Maple, Sugar   0.63   1.83      7,830   1,470   2,330 Oak, Black   0.61   1.64      6,520   930   1,910 Oak, Cherrybark   0.68   2.28      8,740   1,250   2,000 Oak, Laurel   0.63   1.69      6,980   1,060   1,830 Oak, Northern Red   0.63   1.82      6,760   1,010   1,780 Oak, Pin                   0.63   1.73      6,820   1,020   2,080 Oak, Scarlet   0.67   1.91      8,330   1,120   1,890 Oak, Southern Red   0.59   1.49      6,090   870   1,390 Oak, Water   0.63   2.02      6,770   1,020   2,020 Oak, Willow   0.69   1.90      7,040   1,130   1,650 Oak, Bur                   0.64   1.03      6,060   1,200   1,820 Oak, Chestnut   0.66   1.59      6,830   840   1,490 Oak, Live                   0.88   1.98      8,900   2,840   2,660 Oak, Overcup   0.63   1.42      6,200   810   2,000 Oak, Post                   0.67   1.51      6,600   1,430   1,840 Oak, Swamp Chestnut   0.67   1.77      7,270   1,110   1,990 Oak, Swamp White   0.72   2.05      8,600   1,190   2,000 Oak, White   0.68   1.78      7,440   1,070   2,000 Sassafras                   0.46   1.12      4,760   850   1,240 Sweetgum   0.52   1.64      6,320   620   1,600 Sycamore, American   0.49   1.42      5,380   700   1,470 Tupelo, Black   0.50   1.20      5,520   930   1,340 Tupelo, Water   0.50   1.26      5,920   870   1,590 Walnut, Black   0.55   1.68      7,580   1,010   1,370 Willow, Black   0.39   1.01      4,100   430   1,250 Yellow-poplar   0.42   1.58      5,540   500   1,190

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Stophel on February 27, 2009, 12:17:57 AM

Holly and dogwood both I think have been used to imitate ivory for inlays/veneer work.  Supposedly both are super hard and tight grained and off white.

I don't know how much good Elm is available anymore, after Dutch Elm Disease....

The Swedes used elm quite a bit, and probably most of the Swedish guns I have seen (pictures) of were stocked in elm.  The English used elm on rare occasions too.  The Germans used European walnut almost exclusively, but sometimes you see maple, ash, and pear wood used.  On military guns, they would use plain maple and beech (though I've read that the gunsmiths HATED using beech...I certainly don't like working with it!) along with walnut.

The Spanish seem to have really liked to use maple.  Lots of Spanish guns stocked in maple.  I think their walnut is generally pretty coarse, so they didn't like to use it much on nice guns.  I have an old Oveido Spanish Mauser that is stocked in what I presume to be walnut.  Very coarse, plain wood, though it is hard and rather heavy.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Acer Saccharum on February 27, 2009, 01:29:02 AM

Cool list, rich. Pignut hickory looks like the densest wood at SG of .75

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: halfstock on February 27, 2009, 01:48:18 AM

I'm pretty sure that everyone is gonna go off on thier own tangent on your question, but staining a piece of scrap is probably the right way to go, if I were you I would try some fiebings leather dye on at least one pice I think you might be very pleasantly surprised. Most makers stick with what they have been told rather than experiment, I commend you for willing to try something new, I expect our forefathers did the samething. Try it you might like it.

Halfstock

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: Tom Currie on February 27, 2009, 01:57:23 AM

Hey Acer, If Stoph's not gonna make Dixon's, I'll take dibs on the other half of that six pack  ;D Looks like I'll make it there this year after missing last year. :'( I've got a nice american elm in my backyard about 24 " in diameter. Not many Elm's left here in MI, but mine looks healthy. Always wondered about the working quality of Elm.

Title: Re: Staining a Sycamore stock
Post by: rich pierce on February 27, 2009, 10:00:55 PM

Elm is tough to plane because the grain interlocks and twists.  It has no figure either.  Plain, white wood unless you get a red elm with the beautiful heartwood.  I use planes and spokeshaves a lot in building guns and bows and it's dicey with elm.  I just roughed out a yoke from elm and it's tricky to work.  But hickory is hard to plane also as it has some kind of micro-interlocking grain.  Guess that's why it's so good for bows.


Back to staining sycamore- just try all the aniline dyes and AQF and vinegar and iron and show us how it comes out.  I know Acer has even stained poplar with vinegar and iron successfully.