AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: vtbuck223 on May 28, 2015, 07:56:03 PM
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I know that opinions vary on this in terms of whether or not to clean brass and silver on originals. However, decided to clean up an original that is very "in the black". I like it the way that it is....but I want to see it in it's best light....and I think this will be an improvement and add to my enjoyment of it. I have read about using 0000 steel wool and I wanted to see if that is the best way to go? Simply using a rough cloth...doesn't do it in this case. I would be grateful if you would share with me what you use.
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Brass: 50/50 Brasso and mineral oil. Soft flannel.
Silver: 50/50 Wright's Silver polish and mineral oil. Soft flannel.
Take your time.
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Thank you.....much appreciated!
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Hey vt, Let's see a picture of it before you ruin it! ;D
You're not the first guy to shine one up, and I'm sure you won't be the last. Given time. it'll go back to black again if need be.
John
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I forgot to add a very important part in post above: Only clean as a last resort.
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LOL. I've been married 25 years....I know how to go slow when I have too. I'm definitely not looking to make it glow...just want to bring some of the brass through. I will post some before and after pictures.....but only if it turns out as awesome as I'm believing it will!
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Flitzs or simi-chrome polish will not leave a residue like brasso.
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I try not to use any of the above unless I am going to polish any brass or silver that may be on the rifle, or pistol. I use a good lanolin hand cleaner on a soft rag. Wipe it on liberally and "gently" wipe it off. It will take most of the grime off but leave the patina and any original finish that may be there and the lanolin will help put some life back into the dried wood.
Mark
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Hey vt, Let's see a picture of it before you ruin it! ;D ...
I think a pic beforehand would help with the recommendations for tools and techniques to accomplish your objective.
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Totally ruined a nickel plated Colt single action with simi-chrome. Too aggressive.
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Thanks all for your responses. Kind of surprised that there isn't one or two preferred methods...but then again...I shouldn't be. It sounds like I may need to do some experimentation using what has been shared here. It might make sense to combine methods depending upon what is needed in any area. There are brass and silver parts on this rifle that are literally "black".....I will post a couple pics when I get a chance. Like I said....I don't want to make it glow in the dark....just take off some of the crud and bring that color through a bit.
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Here are a few pics just to give you an idea of what I am working on. Many of the brass parts like the ramrod thimbles and the nose cap are so black you can't even tell they are brass. I have posted full pictures of this rifle previously. Thanks again for sharing your methods. I will post before and after pictures when I am done....if anyone is interested in seeing them.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1225.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee385%2Fvtbuck223%2Fkrifle2028_zps94d66938.jpg&hash=e5605177cfe18c98908d8e40e615ed7e88764311)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1225.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee385%2Fvtbuck223%2Fkentuckyrifle3035_zps92cfdbb3.jpg&hash=f2a15a385da9f8631370822fe77e47a4b98bfe1b)
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It's your rifle, but please don't shine the thing up too much, if at all. The sideplate has great patina and color, and if you want to bring the muzzlecap and ramrod pipes to the same shade, I think that would be appropriate. Anything more and you start getting into the gray area of potentially decreasing the value and interest for future collectors. I would recommend carefully repairing the major cracks in the wood before worrying about the cleaning anything. Just my opinion.
JTR's right, they'll all go dark again eventually, so some light polishing isn't too dangerous in the grand scheme of things.
I don't believe this relates to you, but I've seen a few old guns where the new owner went to town with brasso and says "I spent all day polishing this!", to which I think in my head "and probably lost half of your investment in doing so". I'll get off my soapbox now ;D.
-Eric
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Thanks all for your responses. Kind of surprised that there isn't one or two preferred methods...but then again...I shouldn't be. It sounds like I may need to do some experimentation using what has been shared here. It might make sense to combine methods depending upon what is needed in any area. There are brass and silver parts on this rifle that are literally "black".....I will post a couple pics when I get a chance. Like I said....I don't want to make it glow in the dark....just take off some of the crud and bring that color through a bit.
Hi,
I agree completely with your goal. I personally do not understand the value of crud that completely obscures the metal or wood. However, there is a difference between polishing and cleaning. Cleaning should just remove the mass of obscuring crud, polishing actually finely abrades the metal. Inevitably, the latter will eventually wipe out important marks and engraving. In your case, you have a mix of crud and patina and the trick will be to remove the crud leaving the patina. Go slow and gentle and I urge you not to use any polishing compounds. A soft toothbrush, a soft rag, mild hand soap, and either mineral or raw linseed oil water are your best friends.
dave
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Thanks again....it is not my intention to shine it up....just bring out some of the beauty that I know is underneath. I will go slow ....do some experimenting with the shared methods.....and start with the "milder" options. The question as I go....will be...when to stop....and I will post some pictures when I think that that I'm getting close to that point.
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I would avoid abrasives. If a damp cloth will not remove it it probably does not need to be removed.
Dan
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Smart dog is on the right sent remove the dirt only.
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Try some of this
http://www.kramerize.com/natural_way.htm (http://www.kramerize.com/natural_way.htm)
http://www.kramerize.com/instructions.htm (http://www.kramerize.com/instructions.htm)
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Thanks for the tip on Kramer's.....it looks like good stuff. My question is....I have been using Howard's Feed N Wax....is this a similar product...does it largely do the same thing...or is it something different altogether?
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I like that stepped wrist. How are chances that you have more photos of this rifle? Would really like to see more of it. Lock, both sides of the butt stock and etc.
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please save all that you removed....as I work hard to get that aged look of years and years on my rifles..... ;D
just remove it and mail it to me.......then I will put it on my builds to make them look really old and cool!!!!!!!!!!!
marc n tomtom ;D
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vt, You seem bound and determined to go ahead cleaning it up, but just a word of caution, from my personal experience. Many years back, about 1980, I bought my first Nice Kentucky. It had some carving on it, looked good, but was a bit grimy so I thought I'd just give it a light cleaning.
A friend recommended something named Murphy's wood oil soap, or something like that. I followed the directions and put a bit on the wood, rubbed it gently around with a soft rag, and yep, I could see the dirt coming off. But when I took a clean rag and wiped the stock off my eyes about popped out of my head, because all the old original shellac finish was gone too!
And try as I might, I was never able to reproduce that finish.....
End of sermon,
John
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There are a lot of collectors love the untouched look your rifle has. Personally I would never clean it..Guns with that look are difficult to find.. It easy to remove but impassable to replace. At least to anyone who know what they are looking at. Louie
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Years ago I made friends with a great picker , Don Newcomer. He gave me advice ,"Buy them in the black & leave them in the black unless they have been booger-ed with to the point you can't stand to look at it. Only fix the gun to the extent that it will keep from further damage". I'm sure Louie & all the old time collectors got the same advice from him or someone who has just as much knowledge as Don. I would take Louie's advice myself.
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Not to be arrogant, but with more pictures, ( mentioned it was posted somehwere??) perhaps someone will trade you a similar "cleaned one" for yours in the "black"? As mentioned many times, "in the black" is hard to find. Seriously, but just another idea.
Hurricane
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I would not use abrasives on any antique. I use Ballistol, alone, to remove a bit of very dark patina from an antique; and I apply it with cotton swabs so as to carefully control my work. However, I have found that more often than not, I need to protect the gun from being shinned up due to my handling. Latex, nitrile, or cotton gloves are a good idea for handling valuable guns. You don't want to remove too much of that patina. I learned that the hard way.
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Thanks for the tip on Kramer's.....it looks like good stuff. My question is....I have been using Howard's Feed N Wax....is this a similar product...does it largely do the same thing...or is it something different altogether?
Howards seems to be for use after cleaning.... I would normally use Renaissance wax for that.
I will send you a sample from my bottle of Kramers so you can test it somewhere safe....
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Cannot believe a wire brush has yet to be suggested. So, get a wire brush and 60 grit iron oxide. That'll fix it.
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Cannot believe a wire brush has yet to be suggested. So, get a wire brush and 60 grit iron oxide. That'll fix it.
I can't tell from your post whether you're being serious or sarcastic. In the interest of education for everyone, here are my thoughts on wirebrushes: A wirebrush and sandpaper is the number one surefire way to utterly destroy an antique firearm. Not only does it remove patina, but it strips just about every bit of character from the original brass, iron, and especially wood. Wirebrushed antiques can be spotted 50 feet away, and have about zero appeal to most collectors. Using a wirebrush on the gun in question here would decrease it's not insignificant value by about half (or more?). I've got an otherwise nice war of 1812 era sea service pistol on my bench that someone wirebrushed and frankly destroyed. Careful cleaning using some of the methods described below would have maintained its color and value. Nothing much to be done with it now except remove the polyurethane on it. Just my opinion,
-Eric
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Sarcastic!
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In some circles, Cleaning is regarded as a capital offense
Your rifle has a $#*! of a lot more appeal to a collector if you just leave it alone.
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"Many of the brass parts like the ramrod thimbles and the nose cap are so black you can't even tell they are brass."
Collectors already know what the components are made of and they do not need to be seen "as brass". With the photos provided it looks pretty good to me and accordingly I would not mess with it. Nothing looks worse than a nice bright brass part on well aged wood.
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Thanks for the tip on Kramer's.....it looks like good stuff. My question is....I have been using Howard's Feed N Wax....is this a similar product...does it largely do the same thing...or is it something different altogether?
Howards seems to be for use after cleaning.... I would normally use Renaissance wax for that.
I will send you a sample from my bottle of Kramers so you can test it somewhere safe....
I don't know about antique guns (the only thing antique in my house is me) but Kramer's works like a champ on contemporary made guns with oil finishes. It removes the crud transferred from your hands to the stock after a day's shooting without hurting the oil finish. For those of you in dry climates, it helps to keep the wood from drying out as well. It was created for and is used by museums on antique furniture, clock cases, etc. I've been using it for years.
Mole Eyes
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I just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who responded to my request and willingly shared their knowledge and techniques. Mineral oil …or mineral oil based products as is the case with Ballistol…was a common thread. Mineral oil now has a permanent place in my tool kit.
I was able to do some experimentation. As mentioned above….the mineral oil was a great revelation….whether used alone or mixed with Brasso. Mixing the two is genius…and works incredibly well as long as one is very careful….. making sure that they are thoroughly mixed, using very small amounts, being very precise in application, and going slow. Though I have not actually used it on my longrifle…..there are a few spots where some of the “staining” on the metal….might call for using a mineral oil & Brasso mix….and I might consider very targeted use of that in the future. As I was mostly focused on the techniques for metal….and have not yet tried any of the wood related suggestions….though Kramer’s is at the top of my list to check out.
As for what I have actually done on the rifle: I simply cleaned the metal parts using mostly cloth rags, water, mineral oil, and 0000 steel wool. I am very pleased with the results and am at a place where I am ready to stop for now. Thanks again.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1225.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee385%2Fvtbuck223%2Fkrifle2028_zps94d66938.jpg&hash=e5605177cfe18c98908d8e40e615ed7e88764311)
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Here are the full view before and after pics that I promised...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1225.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee385%2Fvtbuck223%2Fkrifle2091_zps1de996a6.jpg&hash=76ec2cb2bf0cf8d794ce8a424f1d818766aaed9b)
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Yikes, so how did it turn from light brown to red? ???
John
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Ox Blood shoe polish? I have a cleaned gun I would have traded for this had I seen it in time. Wood is scrubbed down with a 3-M brillo pad to a bright yellow, all ferrous metals have been chrome plated and the brass has been gold washed. Man, does it ever look good! I know, the carving suffered some in the scrub down and most of the little squiggle lines and worm tracks, or such in the brass are pretty indistinct now, but as I say, it's a fine looking gun.
Reekie
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SAD!!!
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There went the patina...
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A rifle like you HAD is hard to find.... Now just another redone, shiny rifle..
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We tried to warn ya. But yep, it is your gun.
oh well. :'(
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Yikes, so how did it turn from light brown to red? ???
John
Interesting comment concerning the color of the wood. The before photo....is when I first got this rifle years ago. It was extremely...extremely dry and brittle! Since that time....I have been regularly using Howards Feed N Wax on it....applying very gently....I might add. I have never done anything else to the wood....never scrubbed it....never applied anything else to it. I settled on Howards Feed N Wax....based on the suggestion of many reputable people on this site. I assumed the change in color was just the wood being revitalized? If anyone sees this and does not like the change in the wood....I would recommend not using Howard's. I suppose I could stop using on this rifle and in 50 years it would dry out and look like it did before.....
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Folks, Let's please keep this civil. I have no qualms about locking the topic should the need arise, however I also think that discourse on the subject can still be educational for the future.
Vtbuck, it is your rifle, but if I'm not mistaken, most collectors view themselves as temporary caretakers fortunate enough to have possession of these antiques for a short time. True attic condition rifles (as yours used to be) are darn near impossible to find - the trend in the mid 20th century was to polish everything until it glowed - as a result there are a great number of fine rifles that have no original patina whose finishes were "refreshed" by removing the old dark varnish and applying new oil and wax. Because there are so few rifles that haven't been touched, collectors find them very valuable for their history, as study pieces for what patina should look like after 200 years, and for their rarity. This is the reason many here are dismayed to see the transformation.
Unfortunately, the steel wool, brasso, and mineral oil combination is quite abrasive, and it did a lot more than just knock the gunk off of the brass and silver. The stock had the "dry" appearance, mostly because much of its finish was worn off or removed, but as many suggested in another thread, it's best to leave the wood entirely alone (except to stabilize the cracks and prevent further deterioration).
There's no "revitalizing", "refreshing", or "moisturizing" wood - it's something they put on furniture polish labels to get folks to think they're breathing new life into their furniture. The wood is just fine, it's just got a scratched or missing finish. The oils fill scratches and crazes in original finishes and make them look newer, with orange or lemon oil simply to make it smell better. A quick look at Howard's Feed and Wax shows that it has beeswax, carnauba wax, orange oil, and I'd bet some mineral oil and other petroleum distillates as well. On a stock with little original finish, the oils and waxes soak into and darken it. None of that does anything to strengthen the wood. In time it may lighten up again, but I'm afraid it has lost a substantial amount of interest and value to most collectors.
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Eric, Why would you consider locking this thread?
No one has said anything different or less civil than you just wrote, but somehow, in your mind, what others have written is uncivil? Perhaps you could explain in what way?
With all due respect,
John
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John, methinks because the subject is touchy.
Eric, thanks for a great write up on the angst herein stirred. It should be illuminating for many. ;)
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Eric, Why would you consider locking this thread?
No one has said anything different or less civil than you just wrote, but somehow, in your mind, what others have written is uncivil? Perhaps you could explain in what way?
With all due respect,
John
Hey John, As Wade said, it's a touchy subject. I don't feel anyone had made any uncivil comments. I mentioned locking it because I don't want it to deteriorate into something less so. No one's comments were deleted or altered.
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Eric, If you could have read our actual thoughts, locking the topic would have no doubt been very justified...LP
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Though....I didn't intend my rifle to be in the middle....I find this to be a very fascinating conversation....as much by what goes unsaid...and the obvious disagreement even amongst the "experts". One only has to do a search of the site....not to mention this thread to see that there is disagreement over something as seemingly simple as applying something to the wood. I will say that after learning about Howard's Feed N Wax and starting to use it on my antique guns....that I have to disagree with the idea that it does not strengthen the wood. Like this longrife I have other very old (1740's-1760's) pieces, and the wood was so brittle that I was afraid to handle them. The Howard's definitely changed that....I have seen it with my own two eyes.
As far as the comments....I am not offended and I don't believe they are inappropriate...even when they are not helpful.
I would like to respond to Mr. No Gold before this thread gets closed....
Firstly....I appreciate your passion....but the sky isn't falling....and while not inappropriate...your comments are a bit over the top.
Ox Blood shoe polish? I have a cleaned gun I would have traded for this had I seen it in time. Wood is scrubbed down with a 3-M brillo pad to a bright yellow, all ferrous metals have been chrome plated and the brass has been gold washed. Man, does it ever look good! I know, the carving suffered some in the scrub down and most of the little squiggle lines and worm tracks, or such in the brass are pretty indistinct now, but as I say, it's a fine looking gun.
Reekie
No brillo pads or shoe polish was used on this rifle....just Howards Feed N Wax
NO chrome plating or gold wash on this longrifle....
Here are some closeups....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1225.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee385%2Fvtbuck223%2FSpring%25202015%2520415_zpslmcymnxz.jpg&hash=7c18fb50e523c1a300402b220fe8e49c7434884e)
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I didn't remove the patina....heck I didn't even remove all of the crud....
Be passionate....but don't have a coronary....life is too short!
I will say that the picture makes the rifle look darker than it is....probably lighting and background.
The rifle is on my wall.....and I like it....a lot!
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Over the twohundred years or so that an antique longrifle has been around it has switched hands numerous times. We have (in most cases ) no idea how many owners it has had. Unfortunately most all of them has felt the need to do there part to improve the appearance or bring it back. I'm guilty as area lot of other collectors. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes. The one thing we all should remember is changing the finish is a one way trip! There is no going back. You can always change the old finish but no return trip. However it is the present owners to do with as they wish. JIM
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I recall going to long rifle shows in the 70s where every old long rifle gleamed. It's a new world in collecting now. That is what is being conveyed. I think there is no factual data that proves old wood can be vitalized by rubbing some stuff into it. The stuff being rubbed in doesn't seem too strong to me. Heck I can shape it any way I want. The main point I take away from these discussions is that whenever one does something that cannot be undone then the antique is probably devalued. Another recurring lesson is that folks get a wide range of advice and choose the advice that appeals to them. Often because we may not know an expert collector with 40 years of experience from Adam based on their forum name and our newness to the collecting community, all advice seems to carry the same weight.
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I really appreciate the responses and the willingness to engage in a discussion about something that you all are obviously so passionate about. After looking again at the full length "after" picture....I realized that it is a very poor picture in terms of lighting and color. It was taken outside...full sun...light background...etc. So...yes...the wood is darker than the before picture taken years ago when I got the longrifle...as I said I crossed that bridge long ago....However...it is not as dark as that picture portrays. So...I just pulled it off the wall and took these...not great pictures either but more accurate in terms of the color of wood....
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Looks like you cleaned the fence up with it!
Buck
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I'll second "whenever one does something that cannot be undone then the antique is probably devalued".
If you want expert advice on restoration, I'd suggest contacting your state or city historical museum/society, tell them you are restoring a wood and brass item, ask for advice.
Generally, they are happy to work with you and you have a certified, credentialed expert in the field to speak to. They will help you stabilize the rifle, prevent further deterioration, perhaps some light cleaning.
They may ask you to join/contribute, but it will be worthwhile to get their advice.
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VT, it's your gun and you have done as you pleased with it; your right by possession. Nonetheless, it seems that your sense of humor has gone astray. My comments were in the way of humorous satire, and not based on imagination, but on actual fact. I cleaned several pieces before I wised up, but fortunately found someone who could undo the worst of it all. I simply described the worst scenario that one could imagine.
Guess that what now rubs me wrong about this is that you came here , somewhat humbly, ostensibly seeking guidance, got answers and then gloatingly ignored good advice given. I regard that as an affront to the experts who spoke up for your edification and it shows a lack of respect. You have received comments from some who have unparalleled collections and from some who are master restorers. It appears that that you have treated them cavalierly.
We are all very happy to share our knowledge gained over many decades of study and collecting and that includes not only the pieces, but their condition as well; what sells and what don't.
If this over the top, so be it. Not the first time I have been there.
Dick
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Dick,
I own no original pieces. I can barely afford to build the occasional contemporary. I do love to study the originals.
I understand "black" guns are currently what collectors covet. Would an original piece that remained 'in the family" so to speak, and was cared for over the years preventing the development of extreme tarnish/verdigris/oxidation be worth less to collectors than a virgin original attic find?
I'm not casting aspersions either way, this is just my own curiosity on the subject.
Kunk
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Mr. No Gold.....as I have stated repeatedly...(where is the beating the dead horse guy?)....I have followed the advice of people on this site....evidently those who don't agree with you! I don't believe that I damaged my rifle by using Howard's Feed N Wax....and doing a light cleaning of the metal parts....if I did...I wouldn't have done it! And yes...I am happy with my rifle....not arrogance....just the truth....(again...where is beating the dead horse guy?).
I will say....the contradictions of some on this site...are numerous, interesting, and not talked about.
As far as my sense of humor.....sorry....but satire is only funny when it is clever!
Moderators can certainly leave the post open...but I will not be participating further.
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Kunk, It's not the 'black' that counts, but the original condition, whatever it might be.
vt, the few collectors that commented suggested you do nothing to the gun.
I don't see where anyone suggested using Howards, although I do see where you mentioned that you had been using it regularly. There was a suggestion of something called Kramers. I wrote about my experience with Murphy's wood oil soap, as a caution to you to be wary.
I expect the mods will lock this thread as they don't like differences of opinion, even if something good can be learned from those varying opinions.
In the long run, it's your gun, and if you like it cleaned that's what counts to you.
A funny thing, here, usually, when someone does something to a gun, the usual guys chime in with the usual comments that the owner was just trying to improve the value of the gun!
I hope you stick around the forum, and I hope we get to see more of your guns. And if you do, just remember that like every forum out there, everyone has an opinion, and that some opinions are more valid than others, depending on the subject.
John
PS, If you have a good picture of the patchbox side of the butt stock, I'd like to see it.
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I find the thread a fantastic illustration of what typically happens when someone tries to "clean up" any historic artifact.
I am no seasoned collector, but an interested bystander at this point-for the qualification of my comments.
Let me ask this of the seasoned collectors here gathered, to what extent has the value of the gun been diminished in your opinion? Assume it was "perfect black" untouched for a max of 10, and now it's dropped to what level on that 10-scale? (not that the subject gun is/was or will ever be for sale, but that others might be reminded of the "damage" that can be done-especially if "trading" is in the cards.)
No doubt it raised the value of the existing "black guns" by removing one from that limited field, making it smaller.
Thanks for playing nicely. ;D
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John,
The moderators do not remove, edit or lock topics because members express differences of opinion. To the contrary, many threads contain just that, with no harm, no foul, just a civil exchange of ideas and opinions.
What we will remove, among other things, is:
3. Any personal attack or personal criticism of another member of the message board. You can criticize an idea but not a person. There will be zero tolerance for this infraction.
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Several replies in this thread have come very close, if not outright violating these rules. Though there are a few unanswered questions along similar lines, the original topic has run its course. Perhaps it would be best to lock this topic.
-The ALR Moderators
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Not to be arrogant, but with more pictures, ( mentioned it was posted somehwere??) perhaps someone will trade you a similar "cleaned one" for yours in the "black"? As mentioned many times, "in the black" is hard to find. Seriously, but just another idea.
Hurricane
This, in retrospect is/was a fantastic idea. Wonder how we could get this word out to the great masses (ha!) of guys with "in the black" guns such that they could likely trade "UP" for a fancier and shinier original gun and let the "in the blacks" continue to exist, be preserved, appreciated, and studied? Win/win is how that sounds to this pilgrim.
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If you can stand a jump into the 21st century, there is a good presentation on why not to use Homer Feed and wax, and other such on gunstocks over on RimfireCentral.com/forums. Scroll down to the "Shooting related" section and look for Stocks: Making, repairing etc. The article you want is in the "stickeys" section at the top of that forum
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I'm really on the fence on this " in the black" being the best examples of original longrifles and to be cherished above others. Not sure I
get why a rifle that is black with accumulation of dirt and tarnish should have a greater value than a rifle that has been kept clean for
generations by people who cared about it. A rifle that has been left in the barn or rafters for decades for the elements to deteriorate is just
not that appealing to me. In my quest for my family rifles, I have now seen about 60 examples ranging from 120 to 170 years old.
Yes, one guy took brillo to the rifle in anticipation of it being viewed so that it would be pretty and shiny, but I have seen dozens of rifles
that had original finish that had been kept clean and brass with a nice caramel color to it. I prefer it over not being able to see the
engraving with wood that is half dry rotten. Are we next going to see some great rifles artificially aged to increase their values? After that
will great Winchesters be likewise aged to increase their values. The guy I bought the best example of my family guns from, kept it in a
safe and for 50 years, took it out and waxed it and his other great guns every year. He had inherited an unbelievably fine collection of
guns from his grandfather including about 25 cased Colt pistols including 3 Tiffany's. None of them were black.
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Thanks Don. Although I'm already sold on the "less, if any, is more" school on the subject am interested to see what I might learn.
Here's a quicker route: http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=3b0ed29092d49e6133e14a36f94ffab8&f=275 (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=3b0ed29092d49e6133e14a36f94ffab8&f=275)
+++
I hear you Shreck, but as I am understanding it's not really the gunk or blackness (trends do happen) but the "original as found" condition that enhances interest/value. So gunking up a clean (well-kept) original would certainly depreciate that gun as much or more than brightening up a dark one.
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You nailed it Wade. It is guns kept in as found condition that are most valued because one can read the history of use. Doesn't matter if found in pristine condition or in blackened condition; tge value is preserved by not altering whatever remaibs of finish or lack thereof. It is the preservation of whatever finish, patina, wear etc that enables the gun to tell its story. My understanding of current best practice is to stabilize an antique, retain current finish, and only do restoration steps that could be undone.
But each owner obviously has the right to do as they please. And it's helpful to understand that standards and best practices change over time and obviously each generation thinks they are doing it right. Think every rifle in Kindig was somehow found clean and complete in flintlock condition?
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That term "Found" has interesting connotations. I love these articles on the internet that say a collection of rare corvettes was found in a barn.
In my mind they werent found, unless they were dug out of the ground. Somebody always knew where they were. Does found mean discovered
in a closet and brought to the collecting market by someone outside the collecting world?
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As found, as purchased, whatever best applies. One cannot undo some work that was done before. I think in this discussion we started with a rifle that appeared to never have been cleaned or restored until the current owner obtained it. So some comments reflect that particular circumstance.
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'Black' is just a term, meaning original condition.
What I'd like to hear is how you do a restoration that can be undone? Seems a bit of a conundrum to me....
Don, Thanks for the rimfire forum link. Interesting stuff from my old hobby there!
John
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That term "Found" has interesting connotations.
In these rural parts folks die, people move away, families split up, things are indeed sometimes found that were forgotten or especially in a the case of a long-outmoded gun-stashed away with no record, then later discovered by someone else.
But mostly I take it mean that the item hasn't been tampered with for quite some time. Certainly hasn't been on display or in a collection and wiped down with regularity, or of course, "cleaned up".
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When it comes to finding old historic Kentucky longrifle's, we pretty much have to either take em or leave em on the grounds of our own personal likes or dislikes. As rare as they are to run across, I have been known to quickly rethink my ideas as to what a perfect specimen should look like!! Seeing so many of the "Classics" in the newest full color books we have today, it appears that quite the few have been polished to the hilt. We also have to remember that is what was done by many of the collectors of the early 20th century. I have noticed the noses in the air when the word "restoration" has been associated with an old Kentucky and to me it is unjustified many times when a piece has had the professional care taken with fine work to put an old relic back into the realm of fine art.
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Karl, I will make an attempt to answer your question with this posting. Collectors basically can be divided into two groups: those who are generalists and there are the specialists. Among the latter you will encounter Colt, Winchester, European, Kentucky, Military collectors, et al who oftentimes pare down their interests into unbelievable increments. And, they spend huge sums to get the best.
Without getting into further descriptions of those who may collect only mint Winchesters, Colts, or whatever, each group seem to have its own standards: e.g. serious Colt collectors will not give any consideration to a gun that has had any restoration whatsoever, including a replaced screw, grips, restored barrel, mixed numbers or any refinishing. Same with the Winchester/Henry folks. Of course it is not too hard to see how counterfeits have appeared which are perfect to supply the demand. The Military collectors are much the same: no restocks, no fore stock replacement, no reconversions, or refinishing. Pretty exacting standards!
The Kentucky collectors are pretty much a different lot. The Kentucky of legend was made during difficult times and most were used hard and put away dirty. Many were used in the westward movment and sad to say, most appear today as though they had been dragged behind the Connestoga wagon, rather than riding in it. You find all kinds of 'alterations and abberations' in them; barrels cut down, conversion to percussion, silver inlays missing, broken stocks, missing wood, and on, and on. So, finding a truly good piece is not as easy as going into the gun shop and buying a Glock. Good, fully original Ky Rifles tend to be quite scarce; not that they aren't around, they are. You just have to be there when one becomes available and have the where with all to acquire it.
There is a fair supply of the 'hurt' pieces needing work though, and this is where less demanding collectors can get into the game. Attend gun shows, estate sales, auctions, junk shops, or any other sales venues where old things are available. Something will show up. If this happens in San Diego, believe me when I say that you can depend that it will in your area. So. Cal is Colt and Winchester Country and very few KY Rifle came through, but still and all, they do show up infrequently.
So, collectors came to the position that a good rifle if in terrible condition can be brought back with careful effort it would be worth having. The first attempt seemed to involve reconversions and Keith Neubauer was one of the pioneers in ensuring that the new parts fit the time period and the style that worked with a particular gun. He went on from there to repairing broken stocks, adding missing wood, inlays and 'stretching' barrels and fore stocks. The results convinced collectors that restoration was a pretty good idea after all. In fact, many great guns have come back into the fold as a result of the efforts of superb artisans we have with us today. To name a few, Louie Parker, John (jtr), Jack Brooks, Brian LaMaster, and there are others as well who do what often seems to be a miracle with wood and metal to bring a badly treated, but good gun back. A well restored gun should look like it has had nothing done to it at all. There should be no mark that betrays the modern hand. It is possible to bring back a good aged appearance as well, but those processes seem to be closely guarded trade secrets. To maintain honesty, all restoration work records should be revealed at time of sale.
I know that this has run on somewhat, but it is kind of a loose history of collecting as I lived it, and recall it today. I know many collectors of Kentucky Rifles and no one I know turns a well restored gun away. Prices may fluctuate a bit between pristine pieces and those having some restoration, but that is reasonable. The pristing gun is one which is in the 'black, attic, or closet' condition, showing that long term storage by virtue of its surface color. Hence, 'in the black'. A gun from the safe or wall rack rubbed down occasionally over the decades will lack the dirt, but will nonetheless retain a smooth patina or mellow color that is not shiny, or which has noticable highlights. The stock will have color, or may even be dry looking. The silver will have likely have a dull appearance. To maintain this, I lay down a single coat of good cabinet maker's wax on metal and wood to avoid fingerprinting, or moisture and that seems to work fine.
As I said earlier, the collectors I know, and I do know a bunch, like to find that untouched gem and they prize its condition very highly. Guess that when the subject of this discussion showed up, it sped up a lot of pulse rates among those who would have liked to own it as well. Then, when it comes back as a cleaned gun and that done in what seems to a hap-hazard manner, it certainly attracted everyone's attention. Sorry that VT found the reactions not to his liking, but he still owns what is a fine, fine rifle and to be frank, the patina is not all gone and will come back over time, or can be repaired by one of the great restorers. I think that we were all in shock over it, and based our comments on that. I do hope that he forgives us and stays in the ranks.
Sorry to run on here, but I tend to do that. Thought that these reflections might be of interest to some of you. Karl, hope that this answers your basic question.
Dick
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Thanks Dick. The calm discussion is helpful. I too hope VTBUCK will stay with us.
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Dick,
Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response.
Kunk
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Muchas gracias, and I'm going to share that with some other folks such that maybe a rifle or two gets spared.
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Dick,
Your response echo's the sentiments of a number of collectors . I appreciated your taking the time you obviously did with it.
I might add that in the case of Colts , Winchesters and other mass produced guns . There are sometimes thousands to choose from. In the case of Kentucky's very few in comparison . Sometimes there are only one or two known by a certain maker. It makes untouched more important in studying there work.
VTBUCK, I hope you hang in there and forgive our passion. WE have all been in your shoes . I have enjoyed your posts and seeing what you dig up. JIM
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Hi,
This is really a great thread and I've learned a lot. I think I finally understand the desire for "in the black". However, how do collectors reconcile the possibility that accumulated dirt and crud may obscure important marks and features that provide important historical information about a gun? For example, barrel markings, lock markings, engraving, etc.
dave
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Hi Dave, to your question, usually the only obscurant to marks and so forth is a heavy rust build up. With that you have to decide what is to be done, if anything. Grime will almost always betray the presence of a mark or signature on a barrel; lock plates, too. With the latter though, rust is usually the culprit. My one really good black gun is a neat rifle by J. Gonter and is so grimy that it makes VT's gun look new. The former is loaded with grime/rust, and the engraving is barely visible, but does show up. I have been told by several people that a little cleaning wouldn't hurt it, but I stay my hand at that. I did apply a good coat of Goddard's Cabinet Wax and when I wiped the residue away some of the grime did come away on the cloth. The barrel has an even coat of oxide, (rust?) on the surface, but the engraved signature still shows up. I have seen only a few extreme cases where a signature or mark could not be distinguished at all. As I recall most of them were highly worn before the rusting process began. On making a decision to clean the barrel, especially where the signature is located, you need to work carefully so that you don't deface or remove what you are trying to discover. Many were lightly engraved, or stamped and too much effort may harm them. Hope that this helps a bit.
Dick
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Hi Dick,
Thank you for the response. It still seems clear that there is some dilemma about leaving a gun as found, perhaps stabilizing any decay, and lightly cleaning it to reveal important details. I think it will always be a grey area and open for some debate. The message I take away from this excellent discussion is that untouched long rifles are very rare and an owner of one should understand that and preserve that condition for the next generation regardless of the lack of visual appeal. On the other hand, there are many more already cleaned guns that may appeal more visually to many (me included) and can remain in that condition while still preserving their current historical value. If you own an untouched rifle but want it cleaned to satisfy your visual taste, then sell or trade it to someone who will preserve its condition for a gun already cleaned up. To my mind, that sums up much of this discussion. Do I have that wrong?
dave
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Hi Dick,
Thank you for the response... If you own an untouched rifle but want it cleaned to satisfy your visual taste, then sell or trade it to someone who will preserve its condition for a gun already cleaned up. To my mind, that sums up much of this discussion. Do I have that wrong?
dave
That is the message I'm hoping gets "out there" to those who get their "new" hands on originals. Absolutely.
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I’ve also enjoyed this discussion and the other on reconverting. Relative value may affect feelings.
I know very few collectors of old rifles ($15,000 and up) who maintain the piece as they acquired it - converted, not overly cleaned, wire or inlays missing, etc. As a student, these are very important to me, as I can believe and learn from what I see, and I can guess what should be.
Many high end collectors look for complete arms that look like the showpiece the maker intended – thus back to flint, barrel to original length, inlays and wire replaced, wood replaced, nice finish but mellow, all done well, aged appropriately and new work blended to old so you can’t tell. These are what we usually see in the fine photo books being published today. As a student, they probably represent the rifle as new – but I can’t be sure. Some or several others have inserted their thinking ahead of me.
Dealers know their customers, find rifles that might fit a particular buyer, have the work done accordingly, raise the value, perhaps “replace history” and complete the transaction.
A few fine restoration specialists provide this work with proper parts, techniques, and aged so you can’t tell. They make their living in this manner, and say that they are putting the piece back as it was originally intended to be viewed and enjoyed. Having studied many fine old arms, they can duplicate the look and feel of old wood, metal, use and wear, vs. the faux aging popular on contemporary arms.
I think I like the Williamsburg/Wallace/Gary suggestion of doing any restoration so you “can’t see changes from 6 feet, but can see from 6 inches. Have not seen that done, yet.
I think it is human nature to want to find a piece with history, and then to have the opportunity to study and decide what to do with it. We may be disappointed when someone else has gone ahead, rather than us getting to see and make those decisions ourselves. In many cases, values will eventually influence thinking. Bob
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And once again the constituency of this site has driven a potential enthusiast away. Did he listen to your advice? No. But it was his to do what he wished. But because he chose NOT to do what YOU would have done, you all kicked him through the dirt. It was HIS rifle, not yours or some imaginary future collector, HIS to do as he wished.
THIS and MANY other insulting attitudes are why I will NEVER recommend this site to ANYONE.
Congratulations on driving yet ANOTHER enthusiast away from an already shrinking hobby/sport.
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Mr. Dogshirt,
You are mistaken in your accusations. VTbuck223 has not left ALR. Quite the contrary, he was signed in as recently as this evening.
-Ron
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And once again the constituency of this site has driven a potential enthusiast away. Did he listen to your advice? No. But it was his to do what he wished. But because he chose NOT to do what YOU would have done, you all kicked him through the dirt. It was HIS rifle, not yours or some imaginary future collector, HIS to do as he wished.
THIS and MANY other insulting attitudes are why I will NEVER recommend this site to ANYONE.
Congratulations on driving yet ANOTHER enthusiast away from an already shrinking hobby/sport.
"Black" rifles are so rare that it may be worth the "risk" of offending someone who doesn't fully appreciate them for what they are. I personally don't think Mr VTBuck is so thin-skinned, and don't harbor any ill will towards him. I do believe he made a bit of a mistake, which we all do. The more folks who choose to learn from this example, the more chances we have of (more fully) preserving another longrifle (or any artifact) for the generations to come after us. Is this not large part of our mission?
I have recommended this site over and over again and reposted this very thread in two places on Facebook--because of the lessons and example it presents. I direct them to reply #69 as well. If this exposure "saves" another dark gun, then it all evens out.
If it saves two, we've gained ground. ;)
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And once again the constituency of this site has driven a potential enthusiast away. Did he listen to your advice? No. But it was his to do what he wished. But because he chose NOT to do what YOU would have done, you all kicked him through the dirt. It was HIS rifle, not yours or some imaginary future collector, HIS to do as he wished.
THIS and MANY other insulting attitudes are why I will NEVER recommend this site to ANYONE.
Congratulations on driving yet ANOTHER enthusiast away from an already shrinking hobby/sport.
Dogshirt….your comment is as true and valid as any of the others on this post. The back and forth in these post often becomes reductive. I have been around long enough not to be “driven off” but others undoubtedly have and will. The truth of the matter is…I did not wake up one morning and decide to clean my rifle….but rather thought about it for years….I am confident my decision was right for me….otherwise…as I said before…”I wouldn’t have done it”. The confusing part for most newcomers to the site…are the seemingly arbitrary opinions and contradictions that arise….even from individual posters. Say one thing here…say another there…say this and do that. There are many, many examples of this. Ultimately…I think that responses like the ones here…..and especially those that are contradictory to other opinions and positions expressed elsewhere…do a great disservice to this whole field. It does not lend itself to an open discussion…but drives people into secrecy in a field that already has too much of that.
As I said previously…I very much appreciate the passion on this forum. That is what makes you all and this site a unique place. Mr. No Gold....stated in one of his posts…that I didn’t like what people had to say….not true…I think that if you look at my responses ….you will see that I consistently said that I respect everyone’s opinions. Now…I don’t think that it is helpful when people are crass….but I don’t take that personally….and I believe that it simply reflects poorly upon that individual. (I’m not saying that I am always above that…I have regretted many a comment in my life.)
I don’t know how many people actually read all of the posts on here and take the time to “listen” to what is being said….but I have. By “listen” I mean….read between the lines… to what is said and unsaid…and connecting posts and topics that may otherwise seem unrelated. Ironically, the posts of many who have expressed their displeasure here are the same people that contributed to my decision to do what I have done. Some people will read this and say “what is he talking about”….but many others will know exactly what I am talking about. These are some of the contradictions that I alluded to earlier.
Somebody commented that when anyone posts about changing anything on a rifle….the “usual guys” speak out against it. I know that to be true…as I have read all of them. If you go back to my opening post here you will see that my statement is “I know that opinions vary on whether or not to clean brass and silver on originals”. But….I have also read all of the others posts as well….and and the contradictions…which I will get to. So….when I posted my question here…. After years of contemplating….I had already made up my mind….and I wasn’t asking for opinions on whether or not to do it….but for those that do and have…(and they are legion)….simply what do they do? My acceptance of but seeming disregard of the opposing opinions was taken for arrogance….but it was understood only in the context of this post…. and didn’t take into account that I had already read the same responses numerous times and contemplated this for years.
Before I get to the contradictions…let me give a brief caveat. I have owned only three longrifles ….many more antique muskets and rifles of other persuasions. I have never cleaned the brass or silver on any of them…..would never even dream of it. Why now?....well to be honest….in large part because…YOU convinced me! I want to bring enough of the color through the brass and silver to see this “piece of art” as the “artist” intended it.
Now for the contradictions. I could literally fill a book with examples of what I am talking about. I could also cut and paste….the exact quotes and photos and threads to show here….but that is unnecessary. Instead I am just going to explain a simple and benign example of what I am talking about.
A very “shiny”….heavily…heavily….heavily… cleaned rifle was posted. Absolutely no patina anywhere. The wood was shiny…refinished….not a scratch on it. The brass and silver even shinier. The immediate response (from some opposed here to me making any changes to my rifle)…..was “wow….what a beautiful rifle….finest example ever seen from this maker”. No mention of brillo pads….or negative comment about the current state of the rifle at all. And as said….I could fill a book with such responses. Even put a few about Howard’s Feed n Wax in there….again no“you are ruining your rifle” responses….there…just “beautiful” and “wow”. And there in lies the conundrum….how can you respond like that to a rifle that looks like it is brand new out of the box…and then criticize someone who simply wants to bring some color through the black. Either….there are real gray areas….opinions change very rapidly…are applied arbitrarily….or there are genuine contradictions not only between individuals but within individuals.
And as far as the “black” what does that actually show you about the history of the rifle...other than it was unused and hung over a fireplace for the last one hundred years? (Remember….I appreciate patina and “black” myself…never removed even a bit from any of the other rifles or muskets I own or have ever owned. But this is a “work of art”….it is going to hang on my wall for the rest of my life…and I want to see it with a bit of color)
This post is way too long as it is….and I could literally write a book. Don’t even get me really going on the “Lonrgrifle is art”….or the ever arbitrary and changing definition of leave it “as found” …(ridiculous when you read the post on converting back to flint.)
Ultimately, I chose not to continue the back and forth….because it just isn’t worth it…..but I would say that I think there does need to be a little “soul searching”….
And again…to beat the dead horse…and sorry to those who suggested it…because it is ridiculous…no I didn’t and nobody would….want to trade my rifle for a “cleaned one”…..thank you anyway….I like my rifle and want it just the way it is…..
Now…having said all that….I really like rifles “in the black” also…..I currently own another new England long rifle in this condition…”as found” I guess you could say???….I have no plans to touch the brass and silver….I like it the way it is….c’est la vie
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VT,
Very well said! Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, but ultimately yours is the one that matters most.
Mark
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I have been following this thread with much interest. It has been a very good, if not heated at times, topic. Over 40 years I have modified my views on restoration. I think I have a very good compromise to this discussion, at least for me.
I have included several pictures of a gun I just got. It is a colonial fowler that could be from the Hills shop, specifically attributed to John Hills. It is in "as found" condition. Some would leave it as is. But 12 inches of the forestock has been ripped off and all the ramrod pipes are missing. Additionally, the lock has been converted to percussion and the toe of the but has a period repair. My initial plan, subject to modification is:
1. replace the missing forestock wood.
2. replace the ramrod pipes.
3. leave the lock in its current configuration, although a competent conversion to flintlock could be done.
4. leave the butt repair as is.
5. Publish it so in the future a record exists of its original configuration. (thus the value of this forum) once posted here, it is on record.
All my planned restoration can easily be put back to the original state the gun was found in, and I believe that to be a very important point.
I did this with a Revolutionary War Kentucky rifle, purportedly from Bunker Hill, I got last year (published KRA bulletin Fall 2014) My restoration was such that it could be easily put back in its "as found" condition. Also, by publishing in the KRA bulletin, no one should be fooled in the future.
This is my current plan, subject to modification.
Al
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