AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: hatman on May 16, 2017, 07:00:24 AM
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A bit of a google search kept coming up with sabot and (faux BP) pellet info. :(
I'm just looking to know what a reasonable real black powder load in 50 and 54 cal with patched round ball would be for deer up to 100 yards.
It's a bucket list thing that'll probably never happen but just curious.
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I've had good luck in both calibers with 75-85 grains of powder. On deer the 54 seams to leave a better blood trail.
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I've had good luck in both calibers with 75-85 grains of powder. On deer the 54 seams to leave a better blood trail.
Thanks Joe.
I've been using between 65 and 90gr at the range. Sounds like I'm in the ballpark.
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In my 50's, 85-90 2f or 3f Goex for Deer and Hogs. Less powder will work, especially if you're shooting them up close, but I like the flatter trajectory and confidence I get with more powder.
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My .54 has a 1:70 twist. It shoots 90 gr FFg just fine. Uses .535 ball w a thick denim patch and lubed w mink oil.
TC
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A bit of a google search kept coming up with sabot and (faux BP) pellet info. :(
I'm just looking to know what a reasonable real black powder load in 50 and 54 cal with patched round ball would be for deer up to 100 yards.
It's a bucket list thing that'll probably never happen but just curious.
Your most accurate load at 100 yards would be the best load.
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Just my opinion, but based on many years and kills of whitetails.
I hate to admit it but these guys using the differant sabots are on to something, in that they make bigger holes and bleed more.
But that is not for me. I am too much a traditionalist.
As always, find what load your rifle shoots most accuratley, and that is what to use.
I have a 54 bal 38" Issac Haines I have been using for 25 years or more.
I use 75 Gr FFG and a patched round ball.
Ya just gotta hit em' where it counts, no matter what load or projectile ya use.
BP will not kill by shock.
NEck, heart or lungs, meat on the table.
Guts and legs, a long chase and often for nothing. I never could catch a three legged deer when in my prime.
I dont shoot in the head. I used to but once I shot the jaw off a deer and almost didnt get it. I will not do that again.
In my 50 cal. I used 65 Gr FFFG patched round ball.
Remember, all ya can do is shoot thru them. Gotta hit the vitals.
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A lot depends on what the rate of twist you have in your barrel. Faster twists can get away with lighter powder charges, and still maintain accuracy. Slow twists require more powder to stabilize the bullet. You should shoot what is the most accurate in your gun. Oh, and shoot them in the correct end ( the one with the head on it) if you mess that up you are in for a day of tracking, and very little if any fun. So go to the range and find that sweet load that will shot accurately, and kill cleanly.
Hungry Horse
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I started off with a .50 cal. TC - it liked a .20 thou. patch and .495" pure lead ball driven by 80gr. 2f GOEX. We now know that early GOEX was under powered compared to today. I did not shoot anything other than paper with that rifle.
My current .50, the Verner, with a Getz bl. I assume, 56" twist, shoots reasonably well with 82gr.(3 drams) 2F on the trail, but if I did want to use it for hunting, I'd likely see how it shoots (actually test it) with 100gr. 2F, or 82gr. of 3F. I know it would shoot better with those loads, than the 3 dram 2F load. What I do not know, is if I'd need a thicker patch- which is likely, due to the higher pressure generated.
Considering the 14 bore is THE ultimate hunting rifle imho for NA, I will continue to use it for big game - if using a ML.
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In my .50, 70 grains of 3F did best at 100 yards. It was also wonderfully accurate at closer distances. I haven't killed deer with my .54 in years but found it very accurate with 60 grains of 3F and up.
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I have a 38" .54 Colraine barrel that shoots well with either 80 or 85 grains of Goex 3FG. I've never shot a load higher than 85 grains in this rifle. The target below was shot when I replaced the front sight last year. All shots at 50 yards. I think it will shoot well at 100 yards but I haven't tried it yet.
(http://image.ibb.co/iv5Fqk/CCI09072016_0002_411x640.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kEzaqk)
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BP will not kill by shock....Remember, all ya can do is shoot thru them. Gotta hit the vitals.
I've run across this line of thinking before - that a muzzleloader projectile kills via direct tissue damage and blood loss, much like an arrow, with hydrostatic stock playing a negligible role. If so it would go a long way towards explaining why roundballs are so much more effective in practice than they are in the field and why conicals don't always seem to translate into more effective killers beyond the advantages of range and penetration - any energy beyond that necessary to penetrate completely through a target is a waste.
The one problem is that I was under the impression that modern pistol bullets, which move at similar velocities to roundballs, do inflict hydrostatic shock. I could be mistaken, though.
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That is interesting about the pistol velocity??
Just thinking here that maybe that has to do with the closer ranges that pistols are used?
I know that when I have shot deer at close ranges , say 25 yds and less, they seem to be harder hit and drop hard. But then maybe thats cause at such closer ranges I hit the vitals better??
Of course, hitting solid bone, especially when close really seems to hit real hard?
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My thoughts are that round balls tend to push organs out of the way and cut less than a jacketed bullet. Since I started in 1976 I've had deer drop to the shot, mostly from spinal trauma, and also run a long way while bleeding less. And some bleed a lot. That's one reason I've gone to 85 grains 3F, just trying for a little more MV as I think speed equals greater expansion in a round ball.
Another thing is the hardness or the ball. When I first started the rule was, "If a fingernail won't scratch the ball then the leads too hard." All I ever used was the softest, purest lead I could get and memory tells me those cast balls were more effective on deer.
Now most hunters use swaged lead balls from Hornady or elsewhere. I can scratch these but it takes more effort. I think the swaged lead balls are too dense and don't expand as easily as my old cast bullets.
These are just observations from an old hunter. I'm sure others see it differently.
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Another piece of this puzzle that is rarely discussed is twist rate as related to tissue damage. Many years ago a friend and I were shooting our muzzleloaders at the local range. I had been given a big old circular saw blade about three feet in diameter, that we welded to a chain an suspended between two posts for a long range ( 200 yards) gong. My friends rifle was a custom Hawken in .54 cal. with a Bill Large barrel in 1 in 66" twist. Mine was a flint .45 cal. kit gun in 1 in 48" twist. He had shot a couple of shots, and had hit the blade squarely both times with the .54 sending the blade swinging and creating a great clang. I stepped up and fired at the blade, and knocked a ragged square hole in the blade with the little .45. We thought he had fractured the blade, and I simply finished the damage. But just to be sure I picked an area of the blade with no damage and shot again. This shot also broke a sqarish hole in the blade. The balls were all dead soft lead, and excessive charges were not used. Another friend had a Thompson Center Hawken with a replacement .45 cal. barrel in 1in 66" twist that he shot our gong with, and to our surprise it didn't break the blade either. The only thing that was different was the twist rate. Could a ball spinning faster be more lethal? Could this be why many rifles in the past were 1in 48" twist no matter what caliber the were?
Hungry Horse
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I think you are on to something there about using more powder to increase velocity, in order to expand the lead more.
That makes allot of sense to me. Bigger ragged diameter = more damage.
Another thing on swaged balls, I shot a deer this tear in the lower neck quartering thru. What I found when skinning it was several pc of lead. The largest showing clear signs of the ball being made from pc of lead, not cast! At least that is what it looks like.
I will try and find it and see if I can photograph it?
It was a Hornady swagged ball .535 in my 54 Colerain.
Which BTW, I have tried FFFG in and it just dont shoot quite as well or consistant as the FFG.
Just my two cents?
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It has always amazed me that the deer I've killed with both the .50 and the .45 had entrance holes larger than any exit holes I'd seen made by modern rifles - the only exception was with the .338 Win Mag. They also dropped at least as quickly as when shot with the .30/06 or .308. All the rb I've managed to find under the skin of fallen deer were flattened out like a coin; most of these were shot with a .45. Deer killed with the .357 either dropped DRT or ran an average of 25 to 30 yards. A soft lead prb (.45 & up) is an awesome deer killer and inflicts respectable damage at ranges under say, 75 yards: and often farther than that.
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I have a 38" .54 Colraine barrel that shoots well with either 80 or 85 grains of Goex 3FG. I've never shot a load higher than 85 grains in this rifle. The target below was shot when I replaced the front sight last year. All shots at 50 yards. I think it will shoot well at 100 yards but I haven't tried it yet.
(http://image.ibb.co/iv5Fqk/CCI09072016_0002_411x640.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kEzaqk)
Your 85gr. 3F load likely will shoot about the same as 90gr. 2F. In the larger bores, 3F usually does not give the higher spread in speeds compared to 2F.
My .69 actually matches velocities fairly closely, 3F or 2F in the smaller charger (around 82gr.), with higher speeds actually coming from 2f when the charges get up to hunting-type loads.
This rifle only has a 31" bl. ahead of the plug.
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Many, many years ago I shot a couple of bobcats with a .45 prb and 60 grains of 3F. The ball hit the spine - it was walking directly away from me - and split into two projectiles. Couldn't find the ball remains but the one shot left two exit wounds. A soft lead ball will flatten or deform noticeably even without hitting a bone.
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I've never found anything better than a round ball for deer hunting. Or Black Bear , and moose. An elongated bullet will help with increasing the range, but I find that the RB just plain kills better within the ranges I hunt. A .54 is better than a .50 ...yes I know that folks drop deer with .45's and .40's. For bears, I like my .62 which is my moose rifle too. Most of my hunting is inside 50 yards, or even 35 years. My go to gun for a number of years now is my 10 bore N.E. Fowling gun. It is an absolute killer.
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in both my 54 and 62 I shoot 80 gns of ffg pushing a beargreased pillowtick patched ball. I like the big holes the 62 puts in them an have no trouble with bloodtrails out of the few that have managed to run off
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As promised here are a couple photos of my fragmented Hornady swagged ball.
This was shot less than an hour befor quitting time on the last day here in Pa this year.
While skinning the deer I found these three pc.
I dont think I ever had a RB fragment before that I knew of. Always just flattened out.
If you can look close or enlarge the pics you can see that this ball is comprised of several pc of lead. It actually looks like a shell with pieces inside!
I never saw anything like this before!!
(http://preview.ibb.co/chFDTF/Balls_Patches_010.jpg) (http://ibb.co/koNtTF)
(http://preview.ibb.co/n6Uwha/Balls_Patches_011.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bvB92a)
free ebay image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
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Strange indeed.
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Hmmmm.....must have been a rare, Hornady XTP expanding hollowpoint roundball! ;-)
Sounds like the deer died, so it must have done the job.
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Yea it dropped in it's tracks, literally. But it was only about 25 yds.
So back to the earlier part of this thread. Is it cause' of the amount of powder or just because it was so close.
And I hit allot of bones.
These three pc were all found on the far side of the deer, as well as a couple other thru holes as I recall.
I think that the several paths of the lead fragments might have done a better job at damage than just one hole?
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My bet is on bone as a he cause.
TC
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I've killed quite a few mule deer with 50 cal with loads ranging from 60 grains to 100. They all worked just fine. Less than 60 might work fine too, but I haven't tried less. Whatever shoots well at the distance you expect to shoot.
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I've been using 80 grains of fffg black powder and a .570 round ball in my .58 English style rifle in flint. Of the ten or more deer I shot with this short barreled gun none have gone more than 25 yards on their feet. It a allmost always left a sizable exit hole. Except for one deer shot quartering tward me. The ball shattered the near shoulder and came to rest under the hide at the inner side of the opposite ham, traveling the length of the deer. The ball was surprisingly undeformed. I suspect my lead is a bit hard. The rifles barrel is only 28" long. My family members all have .54 cal rifles that I have full confidence that they will do similarly with 80 grains of fffg. They just haven't got a dumb enough deer to walk in front of them.BJH
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I just wanted to acknowledge my thanks to all the replies in this thread.
This forum is a treasure trove of knowledge I'm thankful to have found.
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I've had cast round ball fragment before. When this happened, it was because of striking bone, but the shot was lethal, so I don't think fragmenting led to poor performance.
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The load I developed for my .50 schimmel consists of 75 grains of 2f Goex under a .495 home cast ball and .020 Wal-mart pillow ticking lubed with a 50/50 mix of Ballistol/water. I'm not sure of its 100 yard performance as all of my hunting shots have been under 75 yards.
I've killed deer reliably with this load, but always wondered if it was underpowered; at least until I killed two with one shot. I had a doe and two fawns in front of me 60 yards. The doe was standing broadside when I took the shot. I hadn't noticed that one of the fawns had walked beside her as I took aim and fired. At the shot, the doe went down and the fawns took off. One ran about 30 yards and did a complete summersault and piled up. The ball had gone completely through the doe and into the chest of the fawn standing (hidden) beside her. I found the flattened ball just under the hide on the far side of the fawns rib cage. Sure glad I had two tags in my back pocket that day! Never doubted my load after that.
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It doesn't take alot of velocity to poke a hole in a deer....
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It takes 'some' velocity over a pistol's speed (1,200fps) to hit them at 150 or 175yards, though. Yeah - I load my .54 pistol with enough powder to make it accurate(66" twist). It likes 55 to 60gr. 3F.
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75 grains in a .50 cal. And lubing it with a combination lube, that has water in it, sound like trouble in the making to me. Chances are that your 75 grain charge is more like a 60 grain charge in reality if you carry it loaded very long.
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Hungry Horse
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75 grains in a .50 cal. And lubing it with a combination lube, that has water in it, sound like trouble in the making to me. Chances are that your 75 grain charge is more like a 60 grain charge in reality if you carry it loaded very long.
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Hungry Horse
By your determination, wouldn't spit-patching create the same problem? I'm sure there is more water in a spit patch than what is in mine. I use water in my patching only as a carrier. I prepare my patches well before I use them. The water evaporates and leaves the oil behind. I've been using the "Dutch" Shultz method using various water/oil combos for years and they've never been a problem, nor will they likely ever be.
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For a "serious" load in my .50 pistol I use 50 grains of 3F. I wouldn't want any more as it's a bucking bronc. Thirty grains is accurate and recoil isn't bad.
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Edited--------------------------------------------
Hungry Horse
OK the two of you need to take this discussion offline. You are welcome to trade barbs via the ALR private message center.
Dennis
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I used a .54 with 80gr of 3F Swiss for muley's, elk, and black bear.
I'm using a .50 now and will use 75gr of 3F Swiss for the same game. I might use 70gr to. I need to see what the gun likes. My thinking is the smaller ball will pancake faster if I push it too hard.
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I once shot "THRU" a deer with 26 or 28 Gr 3F in a 44 cal cap and ball revoler.
I had it woulded in the jaw and didnt want it running off while I reloaded.
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6 shots wasn't enough?