AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Chowmi on June 05, 2017, 04:33:55 AM
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I'm back at WKU this year for Jack Brook's class, building a Christian's Spring rifle.
I'm copying #43 from RCA (or at least as close as I can get!).
I slightly modified the lockplate on the Davis early colonial lock by eliminating the pointy tail on the lock, and adding an astragal arch to the nose. I didn't quite get the nose right I think. I cut the arch too far back. I will also modify the cock and fabricate a larger cock screw. I also filed the bolster down to 1/4 inch to match the width of the original.
Here's the lock inlet:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FertCxa%2FIMG_0310.jpg&hash=e7748507f1ac2f0213728691dfaef2f00cdb5a5d) (http://ibb.co/fOUkHa)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fm2DqiF%2FIMG_0312.jpg&hash=6e9f3b43163c00a4541049a8dcf4d60f690c060c) (http://ibb.co/jNuKca)
Today I made a trigger and trigger plate out of stock steel. That was quite fun. Still lots of shaping and bending to do on the trigger to get the right shape, and filing to get the decorative shape behind the trigger.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeJHi3F%2FIMG_0306.jpg&hash=6b35e32bb4100376d4bf3b290f8d2ce3313203b8) (http://ibb.co/ddyCxa)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfoNGOF%2FIMG_0309.jpg&hash=e26534879a53ba9626a755c930db8aa2476a8eee) (http://ibb.co/dOVgqv)
Tomorrow I will file the trigger plate to a boat type shape and inlet it and the trigger.
Comments welcome,
Cheers,
Norm
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To my eye, I think your astragal arch should have went back a bit farther. Looks like your coming right along.
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That's looking pretty good.What barrel weight is that a d weight?I would like to try making one of those some day.
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Nice Work! Thanks for posting.
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Well done. The trigger looks great.
Cory Joe Stewart
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Looking good. That lock is a powerhouse. Pretty robust and has enough meat to modify. What barrel are you using?
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Nice work. Do you intend to go w/ just a TH...no liner? The pan top is quite high on the side bbl flat . Might just be the camera angle. The lock location certainly looks like it belongs......Fred
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Thanks all for the replies. I've had a lot of fun so far building it.
The trigger and trigger plate are now in.
Mike, I get what you are saying on the arch. The arch on the original is quite far forward and I just eyeballed it for placement.
Rich and Thimble Rig, the barrel is a .54 cal from Ed Rayl patterned after the barrel on the Griffin Rifle by Christian Oerter. As such, it likely does not match exactly a B or C weight etc.
Ed does a run of these barrels in the spring prior to class. Don't know for sure, but I expect you could ask him for one. I bought another one this year for my next project.
Fred, I think it's the camera angle. I aimed for lining the top of the pan on-center to the barrel, but I think in actuality it is just a tiny bit lower (tiny bit). The original had a gold vent liner (Curtis, on this forum, made a gold liner for his rifle- he did a build along post). I intend to use a chamber's liner. I don't think I will go so far as to do the gold one.
I do like that lock, I think it looks good. The original looks in pictures to have the nose on the lock quite low. I tried to mimick that. As a result, my front lock bolt will have a nice arch cut in the shaft for the ramrod to pass through.
More stock shaping tomorrow,
Criticism welcome,
Norm
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Go for the gold liner, Norm, don't be a chicken!!! ;D ;D Seriously, things are looking good. The trigger plate looks a bit industrially heavy tho', it's pretty thick and will take some deep inletting. Keep up the good work.
Curtis
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The trigger plate looks a bit industrially heavy tho', it's pretty thick and will take some deep inletting. Keep up the good work.
Curtis
Yup, you're right. I went to Lowe's the other day and could only find the 1/8th thick steel (which was actually less than 1/8ths by about a 32nd).
So, I made it out of that. ..... Then Walt showed up in class today with 1/16th sheet steel from Lowe's. I asked if it was near the 1/8th stock.... "Yup, right next to it".
Oops.
Anyway, I had a nightmare brazing the fold (3 tries, still not sure it's brazed)', and the resultant time on the grinder to clear the mess has thinned it a bit. I also did a poor job bending it to conform to the stock, so inlet it a bit shallow and filed off more thickness to meet the correct profile.
I seem to be learning how to hide mistakes and create extra work.
That trigger plate will be strong though!
See ya tomorrow,
Norm.
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You could have soft soldered the trigger plate, I always do.
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You could have soft soldered the trigger plate, I always do.
Yup, wish I had done that instead.
Got some shaping done today and inlet the trigger guard. If I can get the bulk of the shaping done tomorrow, then I will fabricate some ramrod pipes on Thursday.
Cheers,
Norm
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Looking good, Norm! I really miss not being at WKU this year. Have fun and keep up the nice work!
Ed
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Looking good, Norm! I really miss not being at WKU this year. Have fun and keep up the nice work!
Ed
Thanks Ed,
Sorry you are not here too!
Norm
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I did a bunch of stock shaping today. Nearly there.... (I'm slow).
And built some ramrod pipes and the entry thimble. Now it's time to file the octagon flats and the wedding band on to them.
The RR pipes are graduated in diameter, with the front pipe being the largest at about .420, and the entry thimble at 3/8ths inch. They are also different lengths, with the front pipe being the longest.
Since the fore-end of #43 is lost to history and has been restored, I chose to go with the pipe dimensions from the Griffin rifle. I'll have another look tomorrow and see if the increasing length works architecturally. If not, I can grind them shorter.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhuBooF%2FIMG_0313.jpg&hash=e5d457d1e72157f02bab80401d37f50894da7fa8) (http://ibb.co/cdpKvv)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdKzmav%2FIMG_0314.jpg&hash=b42202951145f6842922844f992ad87e987459a6) (http://ibb.co/fjrM8F)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbBtZTF%2FIMG_0315.jpg&hash=a59763e5c64b4adc65b4d48a31593c554c8cd915) (http://ibb.co/jdQRav)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjBqsFv%2FIMG_0316.jpg&hash=dc071d12862b7dd2c79f37bfa77cef8a2a498763) (http://ibb.co/czjxha)
Cheers,
Norm
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Norm,
Do you have a scale plan or drawing for #43 that you are using for dimensions like the pipes or are you all using approximations? Very nice job and interesting rifle. Curtis did a great job on his last year and I'm sure you will do the same. Enjoy seeing your posts. Keep it up.
elkhorne
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Looking good so far! What caliber is it?
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looking good keep up the good work.Im really enjoying watching you progress in youre build.thanks for sharing.
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Elkorne,
I have a profile traced from the original. It is the profile when viewed from the side. I also have the width dimensions taken at several points.
There is some interpolation, as the original has had the forend replaced (from what I understand) from somewhere near the ramrod entry pipe (if I remember correctly). As a result, the length and diameter of the ramrod pipes is speculative.
I do know the length and placement of the pipes on the Griffin rifle, built by Oerter at Christian's Spring.
#43 is attributed to Christian's spring, and may be Andreas Albrecht's work, or possibly Christian Oerter's work. I have taken the interpretive license to use the pipe dimensions and placement from Oerter's Griffin rifle as a guide. The trouble with that interpretation might be that the Griffin rifle is a high-end, highly artistic gun, and #43 is a fairly basic rifle and may not have had some of those artistic frills of the Griffin gun.
I have not inlet the middle and front RR pies yet, so I will look to see if they look right before installing them. The pictures I have of #43 might suggest that the ramrod pipes are of uniform length. The photos that show the pipes are the full rifle shots, so measuring is quite imprecise.
Taco,
My barrel is .54 Cal.
P.S. Full disclosure: I am not an expert on these rifles. My historical speculation is to be taken as just that.. my best guess.
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Norm,
Thanks for the info, you are doing a very nice job. I have been putting together the parts from Jack for several years for the Oerter Griffin rifle and I love the #43. I may in time change try to use my Oerter rifle and plans to interpret a #43 of my own. Really enjoy your posts and hope after WKU is over, you will continue to post your photos of your progress and comments on your successes and pitfalls. We all learn from guys like you and Curtis. Just don't be like so many of the rest of us that still have rifles from WKU that sit in our shop or gun safe unfinished. Thanks for your sharing.
elkhorne
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Norm,
Really enjoy your posts and hope after WKU is over, you will continue to post your photos of your progress and comments on your successes and pitfalls. We all learn from guys like you and Curtis. Just don't be like so many of the rest of us that still have rifles from WKU that sit in our shop or gun safe unfinished. Thanks for your sharing.
elkhorne
Elkhorne,
Thanks for the nice words and encouragement. I will certainly post my progress as I continue to work on this gun. I now have it to a point that I can do more work at home on it. I started last year, but did not touch it until arriving at WKU this year. And I am glad I didn't, because I would have made mistakes without the amazing instruction I've had here. just when I think I know the next three steps, I find out I was wrong....
if you have the plans for the Oerter rifle, then you could build #43 as well since the profiles are quite similar (same shop, not exact, but very close and discernible only by the critical eye). If you have photos, then you could see the difference.
I built this gun using an order of steps that was not optimal, because I wanted to capitalize on time in class with an instructor. I will do it more rationally the next time.
At the end of two 9 day classes, this is where I ended up. I am not fast, and that's okay for now. Speed will come with repetition.
Lock, trigger, and trigger plate are in. Trigger guard is mostly in, but I wanted to establish the trigger guard mortise so I could do some shaping (because I wanted to optimize learning).
I did not pin the trigger guard because I knew that I would likely remove wood at the nose of the guard and have to inlet it further. Again, out of order to maximize learning.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjW1XHa%2FIMG_0326.jpg&hash=c60699887e10b17a76821d4bbef04b80bd32bf2a) (http://ibb.co/mZUxiF)
The ramrod entry pipe is now inlet. I learned a lot forming and inletting it. The optimal way to do it is to form the tail over a shaped mandrel. I did not do this. The next optimal way is to gouge out the correct profile into a piece of hardwood and peen it into that. I did not do this either. Instead, I created a 3/8'ths inch dimple in a piece of plywood and peened the bump-up on the entry pipe thimble over that. Needless to say, it was rough ( I did feel a bit craftsman-ish about it though....). I will not do that again.
I eventually got the finial somewhat close the profile of the stock, and figured I would inlet it, then beat it into shape and then file it to final shape. That's pretty much what happened in the end. Again, I would recommend creating a mandrel or at least a wood form. Another guy in class created a wood form and punched his entry pipe finial into it and it came out beautiful right away. Mine, not so much. Here we go:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FemFbtF%2FIMG_0319.jpg&hash=8cae33342cbd29df49560f08efcb14c2b0c6a6bc) (http://ibb.co/ffFLLv)
high res image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
Lots of filing left to get it right.
Lastly, here are some hand made RR pipes, placed randomly and not inlet.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgekWSa%2FIMG_0323.jpg&hash=f3a736ae3f6fb7d39f48ab806c2ad693d3f1e1cb) (http://ibb.co/i5NpDF)
Please consider this to be a build along, and criticism is quite welcome. I intend to show the learning process, not expertise.
Cheers,
Norm.
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Norm,
You are doing a great job. I know what you mean about speed, i.e. I am not fast either and far too much of a perfectionist. I wish you the best and look forward to your future posts. We just need to aim for Curtis's rifle - right!
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Chowmi,
Just keep on going. I'm enjoying watching the process unfold. The amount of labor that goes into building one of these rifles boggles my mind! Who knew something that looked so graceful and... simple could take sooo much work to turn out right? The really funny thing for me is just before I checked this thread I watched a video where a guy showed how to assemble a complete AR15 lower in less than 10 minutes. Talk about contrasts!
Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged!
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Norm,
Have you decided if you are going to do a sliding wooden patchbox or a two piece brass box like in the picture in RCA vol I? Just curious about your thoughts.
elkhorne
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Norm,
Have you decided if you are going to do a sliding wooden patchbox or a two piece brass box like in the picture in RCA vol I? Just curious about your thoughts.
elkhorne
Elkhorne,
I don't know yet. I'm somewhat anguishing over that decision.
I might do a wood one, might do the one that is on the rifle. Or, I'm considering not doing one at all. All three options seem plausible.
It will be a while before I have to make that decision. Additionally, I am planning on building this same rifle again for my next build. It will be good practice to build another of the same and improve on my mistakes. If I do that, I could do whatever I didn't do on the first one regarding patchboxes.
Cheers,
Norm
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" I learned a lot forming and inletting it. The optimal way to do it is to form the tail over a shaped mandrel. I did not do this. The next optimal way is to gouge out the correct profile into a piece of hardwood and peen it into that. I did not do this either. Instead, I created a 3/8'ths inch dimple in a piece of plywood and peened the bump-up on the entry pipe thimble over that. Needless to say, it was rough ( I did feel a bit craftsman-ish about it though....). I will not do that again."
I'm a novice at forming ramrod pipes as well. Several years ago, I made a form from two different sizes of bolts and brazed them together before grinding and filing them to shape. I also followed Curtis' lead and used a lead block with a hammered in dimple to form the hump. The ball end of a chasing hammer struck with another hammer forced the brass into the cavity in the lead block. The flats were filed in. The brass was .050" thick.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2F6AC9A192-2069-4F86-A52E-00C6AF1F4B1B_zpsddjrzyid.jpg&hash=9e713b9fe1b64d22a14bc103f1b041d8149d5396)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2F382D52A2-CC69-44CC-92ED-1DC7A97AE260_zpsqw3ex78n.jpg&hash=56a13e65faf9514d72a3430f1577be2f0d9b8876)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2FEDFCE02F-332A-4DA8-9AF5-A9B00969AA90_zpszqvnm5t0.jpg&hash=6633bddb1693048ccc0f96777a5fa5befc85b36e)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2FC55B99A6-5B6B-4924-897F-2C1BED62B59C_zpstbwrpyco.jpg&hash=0c9b0e60b25ea3a76f0efc6702d35d80b0191972)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2FB5E5EF33-D84C-4382-BC41-145829C1CC78_zpsye95bifs.jpg&hash=0631df9defb00ef5c6ee84b3a18a8c2f65c3e520)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2FB5E5EF33-D84C-4382-BC41-145829C1CC78_zpsye95bifs.jpg&hash=0631df9defb00ef5c6ee84b3a18a8c2f65c3e520)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv515%2FLSU_Tiger1%2F30D040D0-05FB-4BE5-B6B8-62942224B084_zps9suqvukg.jpg&hash=f7699b3c3af14712ad045eb6b888ad7d39716b84)
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Singlemalt,
I really like your idea of brazing a bigger bolt onto the RR forming mandrel. Your results show why a mandrel is such a good idea.
I'll try that when I get a chance.
Thank you!
Norm
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I have resumed work on my #43 rifle, however, I have realized that I need to step backwards to do it right.
Lacking measurements for the rear entry pipe, I used the measurements from the Oerter Griffin rifle. That was probably a reasonable decision. What went wrong is that when making the rear entry thimble, I failed to account for the loss of length in the pipe when you bump up the brass for the finial.
In other words, if you have a section of brass, but you then peen it up at a 60 degree angle and then bend the rest straight, the overall length will be shorter due to the bit that goes upwards. Oops.
The end result is that I have a nice finial, with a ridiculously short ramrod pipe. looks a bit like Wee Willy Wonka if you get my drift... big rifle, small pipe.....
So it will be time to make a new rear entry thimble and inlet it back into an already inlet space. Fun fun. But I am determined to make this one as right as I can, and this is the right thing to do.
I'll let you know how it goes.
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I assume the straight portion is the same length as the upstream pipes?
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I assume the straight portion is the same length as the upstream pipes?
Oh no! You've just opened the Pandora's box of my tiny brain!!
I have the next two pipes formed and have been wrestling with whether to make them equal length or not. Don't know the answer.
Short answer: I don't know for sure. I think the upper two are ever so slightly longer than the entry pipe. That is based on my using calipers to compare against a picture printed on 8.5 by 11 paper. I.e., not very precise.
I know that the Griffin Rifle has pipes that increase in length fromentry pipe to muzzle end.
Is this a good reason to do the same? Maybe not. Griffin Rifle is high end. #43 probably not. Same shop, but probably different gunsmith.
If I had the rifle in hand, easy. But I have to make decisions.
Either way, the one I made is stupid short and looks ridiculous.
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Norm,
I calculated my entry pipe length by using calipers on a photo, then comparing the measurement to a known dimension on the stock in the same photo. Not very scientific but better than a raw guess. I graduated the pipes on my version of the rifle, but that was based on preference and not any hard facts.
If you fit a new pipe in the old inlet that will hone your skills for restoration work in the future!! ;)
I will send you and email with some information that you can sift through and come up with your own conclusions.
Curtis
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Thanks Curtis, that will be helpful.
Making a new entry pipe will actually solve two other issues for me anyway.
I think the finial on my first one doesn't flare out enough towards the rear. If I flare the new one a little more, then I don't have to be exact to fit the pre-existing inlet.
I never got the finial on the old one to be nice and straight when looking at it from the side either. I have filed most of that problem away, but it still isn't that good and doesn't fit real solidly in the inlet, even when pinned. I was in a hurry that last day or so in class.
So I think a new one done correctly is in order. Otherwise it will drive me nuts.
I also plan to graduate the length of the pipes from back to front. Hadn't quite figure out how much to graduate them though. They are also bigger in diameter as they go. I've made the pipe blanks but have not filed the flats yet, so I still have room to figure it out.
Norm
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#43 is a very fine rifle, IMHO. It was one of my favorites. Gotta admit, though, it would be a tough decision deciding between #43 and a nice Germanic jaeger.
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#43 is a very fine rifle, IMHO. It was one of my favorites. Gotta admit, though, it would be a tough decision deciding between #43 and a nice Germanic jaeger.
I really like it too. Every time I look at the pictures of the original, it draws me in. The more I look at these earlier guns with wider buttplates and thicker butt-stocks etc, the more I love everything about them.
I know this is heresy, but the Jaegers just don't draw me in. There, I said it. In public.
They should draw me in because they are elegant and beautiful, with exceptional craftsmanship. Someday, I'm sure I will build one and my mind will change!
Cheers,
Norm
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#43 is a very fine rifle, IMHO. It was one of my favorites. Gotta admit, though, it would be a tough decision deciding between #43 and a nice Germanic jaeger.
I really like it too. Every time I look at the pictures of the original, it draws me in. The more I look at these earlier guns with wider buttplates and thicker butt-stocks etc, the more I love everything about them.
I know this is heresy, but the Jaegers just don't draw me in. There, I said it. In public.
They should draw me in because they are elegant and beautiful, with exceptional craftsmanship. Someday, I'm sure I will build one and my mind will change!
Cheers,
Norm
Not "heresy", Chowmi, just honest preferences.
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Thanks, Hanshi.
I was thinking about this post this morning and realized there was no good reason to be negative. I was not rebuking your preference. Sometimes I think I need to learn when to shut up!
I have decided to re-do the RR entry thimble, and will make a form for punching out the tail of the thimble.
To clarify, or answer some questions about the size of the forward two pipes:
I will graduate the length and the diameter of the front two pipes. It's my understanding that #43 was (or likely was) restored at some point forward of the rear entry pipe.
That leaves the placement and/or size of the rr pipes on the original somewhat in question. I do not know if the ones on there now are replacements or not. In any event, there is historical evidence for the pipes from the Christian's Spring shop to be graduated in size in this fashion on some rifles. I have chosen to use that as a model.
I have also received some more information about the entry pipe, and will do my best with it. I suspect I have made the tail of my first one too long, which I cannot fix since that would leave a gap in the inlet when I make the new one. I will look at it further when I have the time to do so.
I've been out of the house for some time and have lots of honey do's to catch up on.
Thanks to all that have provided feedback and information!
Cheers,
Norm
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I haven't posted much progress on this rifle lately. It's been slow going, just too busy with life!
I have the basic assembly and initial shaping pretty much done. There are lots of little bits that need work, especially refining the shape.
I did some initial filing on the lock plate, got the trigger guard inlet, inlet all the ramrod pipes, made a two piece nose-cap, and made and inlet the side plate.
I did a lot of shaping in the butt stock area, and initial shaping around the lock panels and trigger guard. Fore-end is slimmed down close to final shape, and the bump above the rear entry pipe is started, but needs work.
Here's an overall picture:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FgGvBLR%2FIMG_3867.jpg&hash=afdf6e7e7cbe6759ee0629f9a22dcc91f72e9938) (http://imgbb.com/)
Side plate:
I made this out of 1/8" sheet brass. I scaled it up from pictures from RCA by measuring the distance between the lock bolts on my rifle, and then scaling the picture in RCA to match that size.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FeGUz76%2FIMG_3874.jpg&hash=fb92ca0230f28ca478883b91b6dda6af0bc59d61) (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FjpnQfR%2FIMG_3866.jpg&hash=68f1053d6e45cfc0c049c646665bca5123df0e13) (http://imgbb.com/)
Here's the RR entry pipe and the transition from lower fore arm to upper fore arm. Still working on the wood transition there. It looks a bit square to me now, and will work on it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FgOxQfR%2FIMG_3868.jpg&hash=97fbf740e42d1d1579aadcd3b5d5f6665afea6dc) (http://imgbb.com/)
The muzzle cap on RCA #43 is likely a replacement, as the fore end past the entry pipe is a restoration (AFIK). I made this one as a two piece out of .040 brass. I relieved the wood at the muzzle to about the depth of .040, and formed the cap around that. Silver soldered the front on and filed it to match the flats on the barrel, or thereabouts. I believe the original had a screw through the cap into the barrel. I did not want to do this, because I wanted the wood to be allowed to expand and contract over time without it being anchored into the barrel (same reason you expand the hole in barrel underdogs for the pin). I cut a square of steel stock and drilled and tapped for my muzzle cap screw, and inlet that into the barrel channel. So, the muzzle cap screw goes into the square "nut" inlet into the stock, not the barrel.
This was my first home made muzzle cap, and it seemed to turn out alright. I was pleased that all the components lined up and I have at least a decent fit of the muzzle cap.
Note that I have not yet addressed the wood transition from the ramrod channel to the muzzle cap.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fb9zSum%2FIMG_3869.jpg&hash=3fa7f5f0a005e4f4c80d8cc5c309b83877480320) (http://imgbb.com/)
Cheek side of the butt stock.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Ff3YWLR%2FIMG_3870.jpg&hash=3c027fb9c5515a062ce605fe0cc56c07d7e0bfe3) (http://imgbb.com/)
Home made RR pipe.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FbSjGn6%2FIMG_3871.jpg&hash=d7c90a2833b2eb194549a5137b1af282867f2f09) (http://imgbb.com/)
Here is the trigger guard from the bottom. You can see a bit at the rear finial where I had to peen it a bit. I screwed up the inletting and there was a gap between the back end and the wood. I peened the back end to extend it more towards the wood. I have not done any smoothing on it. I also have not done the decorative incised lines and grooves on the front of the guard.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fi7HfEm%2FIMG_3873.jpg&hash=f1b5059df7a72f72da97535f261d26da582128e1) (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FdQobn6%2FIMG_3875.jpg&hash=24cf2aead4a5470a73be07f79338d4203218a939) (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FfdANS6%2FIMG_3877.jpg&hash=078d9512821c0ce601cb46e3012fe89ab0f35a61) (http://imgbb.com/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fjfg7um%2FIMG_3878.jpg&hash=909c115eb9f700e73922b61eb08a896ce070578b) (http://imgbb.com/)
Here is the front of the muzzle cap. if you look close, it looks like the left (bottom in picture) side is a bit wider than the other side. That is how it turned out, probably from removing and replacing it several times before I soldered the front on. That side sits a bit proud of the wood (the wood is symmetric, I think). I will file the cap down to match the wood and it should look ok.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fm1tLEm%2FIMG_3879.jpg&hash=1f89683c566711b21d0901e31936e36026c99f9f) (http://imgbb.com/)
Entry pipe. I ended up not re-making the entry pipe. I might decide to change that. I have not finished shaping this area.
This spot always gives me trouble, and I will slowly try to refine it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FdQsDZm%2FIMG_3880.jpg&hash=cb24bf6e9d349896ae1c3ef0d3f974c43aec992b) (http://imgbb.com/)
Comments and critiques are welcome,
Cheers,
Norm
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Looking pretty good overall Norm, and your "Voll Schlange" looks properly sized! In one photo the cheek piece looks kinda short but the whole photo looks a bit shortened so that could be an optical illusion. One other thing - your transition behind the muzzle cap looks a bit abrupt, should be some space (perhaps a half inch to three quarters) between the cap and where the fore-stock goes to full depth, i.e. where the molding begins.
Nice work!
Curtis
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Looking pretty good overall Norm, and your "Voll Schlange" looks properly sized! In one photo the cheek piece looks kinda short but the whole photo looks a bit shortened so that could be an optical illusion. One other thing - your transition behind the muzzle cap looks a bit abrupt, should be some space (perhaps a half inch to three quarters) between the cap and where the fore-stock goes to full depth, i.e. where the molding begins.
Nice work!
Curtis
Thanks Curtis,
I was editing the post as you responded. The transition to the nose cap has not been shaped at all yet. I merely cut that back far enough to get the cap in. In other words, you are exactly right, I just hadn't got to it yet!
Thanks for the feedback on the Voll Schlange, now I just need to get it symmetric.... Always a bugger for me.
I'll have a look at the cheek piece. As I shaped it, I thought it visually looked short. I took the dividers to my pictures of #43 and did my best to proportion it out and ended up with what I have. Not sure it's right, but it was my best effort using expanded measurements from the pictures. I also looked at my notes from class two years ago when you and I were talking about the cheekpiece and using dividers to guess. I had asked you what you came up with. You had calculated maybe 1/8" or 1/4" more than I had, so at least I am consistent!!
I'll have a look at it again, although I don't think I can add wood to it now..
Cheers,
Norm
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Norm, don't worry too much about making the Voll Schlange symmetric, just make it look good at arms length! Trust your eyeballs. And the cheek looked okay in other pics' just looked funky in that one.... so maybe nothing. Carry on!!
Curtis
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Norm, Looks like you are coming along nicely. I didn't see anything that looked wacked. Keep us posted Nate
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What does "voll schlange" mean? Haven't run across that one before.
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What does "voll schlange" mean? Haven't run across that one before.
It's the little "bump" on either side of the fore stock, just above the rear entry pipe.
Voll Schlange means "full snake" in German, the way a snake would look if it ate a tennis ball.
Norm
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What does "voll schlange" mean? Haven't run across that one before.
It's the little "bump" on either side of the fore stock, just above the rear entry pipe.
Voll Schlange means "full snake" in German, the way a snake would look if it ate a tennis ball.
Norm
Aha. I immediately thought of this when I read your explanation: http://www.quintatinta.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Gary-Larson-2.jpg
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Elnathan, That nails it, I couldn't think of a better visual than that!!!!
Curtis
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Finally had a few more hours to work on the rifle in the past few days.
I've got most of the lock parts filed and sanded to about 150 or 220 grit, and then it was time to tackle something I was afraid to do. Initial results are promising.
The lock plate and part of the cock on the original #43 rifle have an indented moulding around most of each part (my words don't describe it, pictures will...). Curtis documented his process for doing this in his #43 build-along. I took a slightly different approach and thought I would post my process and results (prior to final filing and polishing) for information and critique.
Attempting to recreate this sort of bevel along the edge of the lock plate:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FetBfDb%2F2015_BG_054.jpg&hash=7e7e8224f16230b6ab18118cdc5afca46d0c5524) (http://imgbb.com/)
I used a flat graver made from a Lindsay graver sharpening template, and a medium coarse curved triangular riffler file to do the work. My engraving skills are not great, and this will show in the pictures. So be it. I'll practice more!
Here's the tools I used:
I found that it was critical to sharpen the graver often.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FekBSRw%2FIMG_3939.jpg&hash=06308c231ad2e247c597fbcaacee036264e6588d) (http://ibb.co/gpestb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhwndYb%2FIMG_3941.jpg&hash=4c569bb61c493ebbd62627689bbd760335d73b78) (http://ibb.co/ceQAeG)
I first used a black sharpie to define the outer edge of the bevel. Realize that the lock plate is cast with a bevel towards the face, and I also filed a bevel on the rear portion for inletting. So the line I needed to follow was the apex between these two bevels. Here is an example of the sharpie line:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfX3ctb%2FIMG_3943.jpg&hash=940c749fd57490a9f8f1e3bc1825de1c3282be73) (http://ibb.co/e7A1KG)
I then took the graver and tried to cut the face of the bevel, maintaining the angle of the bevel and staying outside of my sharpie marks. It worked, but was a bit sloppy and I think I've worked out a better technique. Here's a picture after a few passes with the graver:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FinnsRw%2FIMG_3944.jpg&hash=bcff12c2d5b5d4a3d895529f3cfd47f6a15b8e4b) (http://ibb.co/csraeG)
You can see that I was not terribly precise in my cutting depth, but it did establish an indented line. To me, that was the key. If I established a good indented line, then the next passes with the graver would have bounds (or a fence, if you will, against which to work). It also established a line that would help to guide a file later on.
Here is the new bevel on the bottom of the lock plate, after initial filing with my curved three corner file. Because the lock plate is slightly banana shaped at the bottom, a straight file would not work.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgEuE6w%2FIMG_3935.jpg&hash=64fc7ebda90eeb9b38a0da2bff3769955cff25e7) (http://ibb.co/ndzgmw)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk4qXtb%2FIMG_3948.jpg&hash=5bc354ae2ec5847e58e155141709280d9185d673) (http://ibb.co/nbR5Db)
Next, I did the top side of the front of the lock. Now, I'm not sure if I should have done that part or not after looking at some photos I have. Possibly oops, but it's done now, so chalk it up to lack of attention to detail.
In any event, I tried a slightly different technique on this part. The results were promising, although they will look a bit rough because I have not had the time to file them as I did the other parts.
Instead of attempting to cut a deeper bevel all at once, I thought I would try simply cutting straight down to establish the indent, or "fence" as I called it above. Picture to explain:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fjsormw%2FIMG_3951.jpg&hash=6c76e3fcdf09f60a94960cb937aeda5fb46ca6fa) (http://ibb.co/ngY2tb)
I did that first to establish about the right depth, and then cut the remaining bevel back to smooth it out. It seemed that this method might be the way to go. Unfortunately, I don't have a good picture of the end result (terrible focus on the one I have. Will post later).
My engraving skills are not great, so I concentrated first and foremost on establishing a straight line for the indent, figuring that files could clean up a lot of errors. I'm sure that someone with better skills could remove 90% of the metal with a graver and then clean it up with a file. I probably removed 70-80% of the metal with the graver, and then filed the rest, and still have cleanup to do on it.
The biggest thing I learned here was: be brave, try it!
Cheers,
Norm
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Norm, nice work and brave indeed. I took some of the curvature out of a Chambers Germanic lock once by filing off part of the lower edge of the lockplate and had to fix a short section of the bevel. I used a grave and finished with a riffler file. Strong work on your part and thanks for the pictures.
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Glad to see you went ahead and did the bevel on the lock, that really sets it off IMHO and the fact you were brave enough to try it puts you at the leading edge of the heard!!
Looks great.
Curtis
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Norm, if you get a chance to do some blacksmithing try making you trigger plate at the forge. It’s pretty easy to fold the end of the plate blank over and forge weld it. A blunt punch can be made from an old chisel, that has been ground to the shape of the trigger slot. When the trigger plate is still hot from the welding, simple take your newly made punch, and punch the trigger slot.
This is a great build. I can’t wait to see the finished gun.
By the way, that whole perfection thing is a myth. It drove me crazy on my first couple of builds. And I scrapped a couple of stocks that could have been saved. When I got a couple of original guns, I found out the old timers made mistake too, but they taught themselves to work around most of them.
Good Luck.
Hungry Horse
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Norm, if you get a chance to do some blacksmithing try making you trigger plate at the forge. It’s pretty easy to fold the end of the plate blank over and forge weld it. A blunt punch can be made from an old chisel, that has been ground to the shape of the trigger slot. When the trigger plate is still hot from the welding, simple take your newly made punch, and punch the trigger slot.
This is a great build. I can’t wait to see the finished gun.
By the way, that whole perfection thing is a myth. It drove me crazy on my first couple of builds. And I scrapped a couple of stocks that could have been saved. When I got a couple of original guns, I found out the old timers made mistake too, but they taught themselves to work around most of them.
Good Luck.
Hungry Horse
HH,
Learning some blacksmithing skills is on my list. I've been dreaming of doing it for a year now.
There is an old blacksmith shop about 8 miles from me. It was built in about 1900, and has recently resumed business as a full time smith shop. The inside is amazing, like stepping straight back 100 years.
The owner would like to give lessons, but is not allowed because he doesn't have a public toilet.... Rats! He did say that he was considering allowing folks to rent time in the forge once they had a safe skill level. I don't know if that will work out or not. Regardless, he gave me contact details for a guy who will give lessons. I just need to get off my butt and do it. And buy an anvil, and hammers and tongs, and a forge....
Cheers,
Norm
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I love to examine old hand forged gun parts, and pretty much any other mechanical parts build before the industrial revolution. The thinking of the time was so different than today. If you use the old methods to make your parts, your finished gun can’t help but be more authentic. I’m sure you have seen modern made longrifle that are made with modern stock removal technology, be it wood or metal, that are dementionally perfect. But, they are sterile, and lack the warmth of those built with more primitive technology. JMO.
Hungry Horse
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Norm, you are far braver than I for tackling that bevel. I love the look, but lack the courage. Someday. The rifle is looking great! Thanks for the updates!
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Norm, by the way you can save your fuel and fuss by cold forging parts made from light mild steel. I never use a heat source on triggers, unless I am bending a tight curl at the bottom. I have even cold forged Southern Mountain buttplates, and triggerguard parts, along with ramrod pipes of course. No need to add steps in the building process.
The Hershel House blacksmithing videos are great for cold forging, and getting a good idea of what can be done in a minimalist style shop. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
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Mike,
Nice to hear from you, and thank you. It was easier than I feared it would be. I think the hard part will be to maintain sharp corners when I am doing the final filing and polishing. I might need a finer three cornered file to do it well.
HH,
You bring up a good point. With the right steel, I'm sure I could do that.
I have a few (but not all) of Hershel's blacksmithing videos. I will probably get the rest this year at WKU.
The piece of steel I used for the trigger was big box store steel of unknown origin. I think it was hot rolled, and it sure seemed hard to me. Although the heating was an effort, it really seemed to help.
I've been following various threads about steel and brass and will likely order steel of known composition from a good supplier in the future. I've bookmarked a few vendors based on other posts.
I also have a piece of scrap that I found in my yard which may be iron. It's likely off an old farm piece or sleigh since we have that sort of stuff "decorating" our garden. I intend to make my rear sight from it and anything else that seems suitable. I'll cut into it and see if it acts like steel or iron. I have enough to make a bunch of sights and about 50 triggers or more.
A note about the flat graver I used. I though about one of Jerry Huddleston's replies to Mark Elliot's post regarding engraving straight lines. I'm pretty convinced that the heel I ground on that flat graver is way to big. I made the graver quite some time ago, and don't remember why I made it so big. Jerry pointed out that as you adjust the angle of the graver in your hand to control depth, the graver pivots around the rear point of the heel like a fulcrum. The longer the heel, the bigger the arc of movement at the point of the graver.
I will probably grind the face back on that graver to reduce the heel and see how that works next time I use it.
Thanks all for the replies and comments,
Cheers,
Norm
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I've caught up on some work on my Christian's Spring rifle over the last couple weeks.
I've done some more lock filing, as well as making the indented border on the cock. The indent turned out a bit shallow, so I will deepen it a bit.
The little finial on the frizzen spring was shaped like a triangular leaf. I modified that to be closer to the one on the original. It's close, but not quite right.
I also bent the trigger to shape and filed/sanded it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjDWcQn%2FIMG_0446.jpg&hash=eed19df66ac1ffa1dbff2ed579f9cae2b80cf088) (http://ibb.co/iwM0d7)
I filed out the casting marks and sprues on the trigger guard and added the decorative elements. That included filing the bottom of the bow to have a ridge down the middle, as well as modifying the grip rail to have facets all the way around the spur.
I also found that a few of the edges were still proud of the wood, so I filed them down to match the wood.
The filing is not complete yet, as I have to clean it up more.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjWiXQn%2FIMG_0449.jpg&hash=239b5fc59912c8a4bcb28793c3b9f30dd859b973) (http://ibb.co/cBve5n)
I did the initial filing on the butt plate and countersunk for the screws as well:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fdvf7rS%2FIMG_0447.jpg&hash=8441721f922f001f04f89bfba21ff9a1b47bcca6) (http://ibb.co/j52LBS)
Lastly, I draw filed the top five flats of the barrel and countersunk the tang screw.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fc2aOWS%2FIMG_0444.jpg&hash=973da618706abd569157bb4fb5157964df879a0f) (http://ibb.co/gXe6kn)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdiBmkn%2FIMG_0445.jpg&hash=c309a83d0f6c3f31b7986796d557f0ef7af78a73) (http://ibb.co/iFyABS)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnQ7Rkn%2FIMG_0450.jpg&hash=1f8e9549b3e4e9b8280b7ea1a11180e403bee71e) (http://ibb.co/jxnRkn)
I'm hoping to get some time this week to make the front and rear sights, and then drill and tap for the touch hole liner.
Once that is done, the assembly is complete.
The stock is close to shape, but there are several areas that need attention as I scrape and/or sand it down.
Comments welcome,
Cheers,
Norm
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It's shaping up nicely Norm, starting to look like a rifle! Trigger guard looks nice.
Just one question for ya - where can I find me a table cloth like that one you got there??? 8) 8) 8)
Curtis
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It is good to see the progress of your rifle!
It looks great. I think that the touch hole liner is the most difficult part.
You can only drill it once on the exact point.
I am looking forward to see more.
Good luck!!
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What buttplate is that?
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Mike,
The butt plate is from Track. I'm 90% sure it is part number: BP-Early-1-B. I bought it about 3 years ago, but I assume they carry the same one.
Curtis,
Yup, that table cloth is exotic all right, you gotta fly all the way to Merry Old England to get it!
One must make compromises when attempting to protect a nice wood table from a 5 year old eating pasta!
Cheers,
Norm
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Will you be putting a patchbox on your rifle? The original looks like it was a replacement. A sliding wood box would look good.
AsMs
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Hi all, and I'd like to offer a few observations as I see them, with support from others,
The brass box on this rifle does not appear to be a "replacement". It might have been added later, but there is no evidence of an earlier patchbox of any kind, wood or other.
The color and texture of the brass box matches the buttplate and other mounts. This patchbox is being rethought by students, just as the brass box on rifle #42 from Shumway's RCA Vol I was thought to be a replacement or later addition, but now Wallace and others believe it to be original to the rifle. These gunstockers worked side by side with talented locksmiths, and may have been experimenting with all sorts of new designs.
The style of patchbox on this rifle shows up on English trade rifles for their Native allies in the 1770's - which are thought to have been copied from rifles made here for the trade earlier. How much earlier - who knows? That same style continued all the way to J J Henry Old English trade rifles in the 1830's - copies of those English rifles that copied our rifles in the first place. Shumway addressed this topic in his articles in the old Buckskin Report.
The tip of the cock on this original rifle was broken off, which you have copied here. The original rifle has a rare touchhole liner made of gold. In some cases these liners do not penetrate through the barrel wall, but are a shallow liner inset into the outside surface.
All the other "Moravian" or related rifles - some signed by Oerter and others not signed have a drilled touchhole, but no liner. In several cases there is an iron bushing installed there, and the touchhole drilled through the bushing.
Thanks for sharing your build. Bob
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Hi all, and I'd like to offer a few observations as I see them, with support from others,
The brass box on this rifle does not appear to be a "replacement". It might have been added later, but there is no evidence of an earlier patchbox of any kind, wood or other.
The color and texture of the brass box matches the buttplate and other mounts. This patchbox is being rethought by students, just as the brass box on rifle #42 from Shumway's RCA Vol I was thought to be a replacement or later addition, but now Wallace and others believe it to be original to the rifle. These gunstockers worked side by side with talented locksmiths, and may have been experimenting with all sorts of new designs.
The style of patchbox on this rifle shows up on English trade rifles for their Native allies in the 1770's - which are thought to have been copied from rifles made here for the trade earlier. How much earlier - who knows? That same style continued all the way to J J Henry Old English trade rifles in the 1830's - copies of those English rifles that copied our rifles in the first place. Shumway addressed this topic in his articles in the old Buckskin Report.
The tip of the cock on this original rifle was broken off, which you have copied here.
Thanks for sharing your build. Bob
Bob,
Thanks for all the comments and the detail behind them. I greatly appreciate it.
I had not heard of the comparison of the brass of the patch box to the butt plate, trigger guard and other hardware, thank you. Jack had hinted at the shift in thought towards the box being an early innovation, great to hear that several others are thinking similarly.
I did not realize that the top of the cock had been broken off, I just saw that it wasn't there. Funny that I have copied a a broken piece!! Guess I should have asked Jack!
Now that I've done that, maybe I have to include the brass tack on the butt stock, and the hole for the brass tack on the other side! I'm not doing the crudely carved "L" though!
You have again given me more to think about, thank you.
AsMs,
I have been back and forth over the patch box for almost two years now. I knew that it was unlikely that it ever had a wood box, and had heard the various ideas as to whether the current box is original or not. Also, the idea that it may be an early innovation that may have been copied for the trade rifles. I've been about 50/50 on either no patch box, or a copy of the one on it now.
Based on Bob's comments, I will probably put the patch box on it. I'm sure that someone has made a copy with the patch box on it, but I haven't seen one. Curtis and Jack Brooks put wood boxes on theirs.
I started to make a rear sight for it today, but I think I screwed it up and will start again. I found an old rusty piece of metal in my yard off of some sleigh, or farm machinery. I was hoping it was iron. I am now sure it is not! I cut a block out to make the sight, and that stuff was hard hard! Cleaned up very nice and shiny, with no evidence of slag streaks, etc.
Cheers,
Norm
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Norm,
Your rifle is looking great. What was your procedure for finishing your brass? I have a buttplate that is pretty rough to tart with. I would like to hear how you found to do it as yours looks great. Thanks and good luck.
elkhorne
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Norm,
I always, thought the patchbox was added later because it looks like the ones you see on Indian trade guns of a later date. I could see it being experimental or one of the first ones used of its type. The Moravians did a lot of work for the Natives. However in my opinion that patchbox is just plain ugly.
AsMs
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Norm,
Your rifle is looking great. What was your procedure for finishing your brass? I have a buttplate that is pretty rough to tart with. I would like to hear how you found to do it as yours looks great. Thanks and good luck.
elkhorne
Elkhorne,
I'm no expert at filing brass, and as a result I still try various techniques as I go along. This also means that I don't always remember what I did!!
For the butt plate, I started off using a technique that DaveC2 had posted some time ago. I scraped the back of the plate to get the casting frost off. I just scraped it lightly, trying not to create flat spots. I may have then gone with a small mill file, but with a lighter touch. I think after that I used 100 grit sandpaper, then down to about 220 or 325.
For the butt plate return, I first filed off the decorative bands that were cast into the plate because they were not what I wanted. I then used a jewelers saw to make the two small lines (one of which terminates the 5 flats on the return). I made the groove with a cheap round needle file, probably from Track of the Wolf.
I then cleaned up the casting frost on the flats first with a 6 inch Nicholson mill file, trying to keep good corners. After that, I either went to about 150 grit paper, or straight to my Gesswein 320 Oil Treated stone (see Acer's lock filing tutorial).
This butt plate was from Track, and I find their brass to be fairly hard. This plate filed up much better than the last Track one I did, but I think that is just because the other was the first butt plate I ever filed.
The trigger guard was a combination of screwing it up entirely and then fixing it. I had filed flats on the front finial, which was wrong. So I then aggressively filed them off and filed it to match the wood, forgetting that I needed to make that triangle at the base of the bow.
For the bow, I used mostly the same 6 inch file, or maybe even a wider 12 inch mill file to give it that ridge down the middle. Then I went straight to the stones and 220 and 325 grit.
I have also recently discovered the use of a gray scotch brite pad, which evens out the finish without giving it a bunch of shine. I used it like a buffer.
I did use small needle files around bends and to clean up corners. My needle files are run of the mill cheap ones you buy in a set. Some of them are quite coarse, but a few are a bit more fine. I've found that if I use light pressure and use the file like sandpaper it works pretty well. Probably not good for the files, but they are pretty cheap.
Wish I had the magic solution, but I'm still working on my process. It still takes me a long long time to file steel and brass, although I am getting quicker.
Last thing, there are a few voids in the butt plate around the back side of the return. I will probably leave those there as I am led to believe that many originals had the same. I have seen at least one that does.
I hope that all helps, or gives you something to try!
cheers,
Norm
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Norm,
I always, thought the patchbox was added later because it looks like the ones you see on Indian trade guns of a later date. I could see it being experimental or one of the first ones used of its type. The Moravians did a lot of work for the Natives. However in my opinion that patchbox is just plain ugly.
AsMs
AsMs,
I secretly agree with you that it is ugly. That is partly why I have had a hard time convincing myself to put it on the gun. I could look at it from the other perspective and guess that it would certainly be a conversation starter with anyone who has not seen the pictures of the original : "why did you put that patch box on that gun??"
Whether it was built that way or added later, it is a part of the gun's history - and a very interesting part at that. I think the "interesting-ness" will overcome my opinion of the box and I will put it on the rifle.
Cheers,
Norm
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Norm
if you think the patch box is ugly, then dont put it on. You most likely are not going to like it more in the future. Why spend all this time on a rifle to put something on it that you dont like?
UNLESS, you are really trying to re-create the original rifle to the smallest detail. If so, I will ask you the question, who are you building the rifle for and why?
Most people will be too polite to ask "why did you put on that butt ugly patch box?"
Fleener
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Hi all,
I offered some recent thinking on this rifle and patchbox, but am not suggesting what any one should do with their version. Such a patchbox is a shock to the eye, as there is little art involved, compared to the talent this man had. You all might take a look at the so called Musician's rifle, aka Fessler which name I think is engraved on the lock of the rifle. It looks really early, and has a castle and musician engraved on the box, with a bearded face engraved at the finial. Also has a very interesting release. The musician rifle cast box is fairly similar to the plain version on old #43 - and like a variation seen on the later English trade rifles with an astragal arch at the finial and either a little square tit - or this engraved face at the forward tip.
Something in this vein, with art or engraving, possibly with an engraved outline or surround like Oerter and others did could be "in the spirit" of the old work. Last I knew, the Rifle Shoppe had the patchbox and spring from the Henry Old English rifles which I studied and stocked years ago. The cast in hinge block is simple and ingenious, and matches this rifle. Ron Paull and others copied these details. Whatever you decide for a patchbox, you can have fun explaining your study and your interpretation. And we all learn together.
I have been fortunate to see this rifle, hold it in the hands and study for a while. Jack made a tracing and noted details when he made several copies many years ago. I recently compared buttstock tracings of #43 with the Oerter griffin rifle. The buttstock outline of both rifles is identical from breech to comb, to buttplate and down to the heel. #43 has about 1/4" more wood on the toe of the stock, which allows a more obvious stepped wrist. #43 is also broader, thicker, forend cap (replaced) is screwed to barrel and some traits we think of as earlier. It is easy to think that Oerter's signed rifles are a later and slimmer refinement of #43. Oerter's artwork is very similar to this rifle, but in wire inlay vs. carving.
Sidebar - some think Oerter may have made #43. Albrecht began stocking rifles (mostly repair work, but occasional stocking or restocking) at Bethlehem in 1750. He took Oerter as apprentice in 1760 or soon thereafter, and they worked together through 1766. I don't know how we would determine who made what without a signature, since Oerter learned his master's work with same tools and patterns, and probably continued in same shop using same for some years.
So there are a number of great old rifles to look at for inspiration for patchboxes and other art. Looking at early iron locks, latches and door hardware is also interesting. Old Bethlehem buildings still have much of their original hardware made when this rifle was stocked. Probably made in the same little shop. So many of the doorplates appear to have a griffin finial.
So have fun, whether copying a great old rifle, or coming up with your own spin. Look forward to your story. Bob
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Thank you Bob, that is such wonderful context and detail.
I am very happy that this post about a build has created talk about the art and history of a rifle.
Please let it continue.
This thread was never meant as a tutorial as to how to build this gun. I simply don't have the skills to do that. If it engenders discussion about this gun and history, I am more than happy.
Every file stroke, or chisel work that I do in this rifle I think about Albrecht or Oerter or their apprentices.
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Norm,
Do not short change your skills as a builder. That is a very fine rifle you are building.
AsMs
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Norm,
Thanks for your tips and explanations on finishing brass and iron furniture. I am always trying, like you, to lean new, better and more efficient ways to finish brass and iron furniture. I have some of the oil stones Acer suggested and also made some "paddle" sanding sticks in 220 and 320 wet dry paper glued onto popsicle type sticks from Hobby Lobby. They seem to work good no are flat backed. Looking forwards whatever patchbox you decide to choose. Appreciate Bob's perspective on the historical perspectives of this rifle. Very interesting. Thanks and good luck!
elkhorne
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Norm,
Do not short change your skills as a builder. That is a very fine rifle you are building.
AsMs
Thank you AsMs, that is appreciated.
It is possible that I under-estimate my skills, but I would rather do that than the opposite.
The reason this rifle seems to be turning out well is not largely due to my skill, it is a result of instruction from Jack Brooks at the gunsmithing seminar at WKU, folllowing Curtis' build of the same rifle, and help from Bob Lieneman, who commented above.
This is all to say that I have had extraordinary help, which has made the gun you see miles better than it would have been had I just hacked away at it myself.
Norm.
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Norm,
Thanks for your tips and explanations on finishing brass and iron furniture. I am always trying, like you, to lean new, better and more efficient ways to finish brass and iron furniture. I have some of the oil stones Acer suggested and also made some "paddle" sanding sticks in 220 and 320 wet dry paper glued onto popsicle type sticks from Hobby Lobby. They seem to work good no are flat backed. Looking forwards whatever patchbox you decide to choose. Appreciate Bob's perspective on the historical perspectives of this rifle. Very interesting. Thanks and good luck!
elkhorne
I completely forgot to mention that I also used some of the Swiss Pattern 1/2 round files. They are expensive, but so worth the money. With a light touch, they really put a nice finish on.
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I know this is probably not enough progress to warrant another post, but it was so much work due to screw ups that I just can't help myself.
I started to make a rear sight last week from a piece of rusted scrap from my front yard. Thought it would be a nice novelty. Turns out it is definitely not iron, and is pretty darn hard steel.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiQYC1S%2FIMG_1326.jpg&hash=3493cd6929760c54c405219bfe3f9d5c060db2c8) (http://ibb.co/jSHuFn)
After two utter failures, I had to head out of town for work, and then caught whatever bug is going around. Spent all day yesterday on the couch, and finally got enough strength today to work in short intervals.
You would think that after two failures, I would be more careful. Nope. Third one burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up!
That has been a lot of sawing through hard steel.
Anyway, here's the fourth one. It is not dovetailed yet, and needs a bit more cleanup. Looks a bit stubby, but width vs length should be right. I think I got the bit with the notch in it too far forward, which makes the front look stubby.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FneDZFn%2FIMG_1334_1.jpg&hash=1d4d7eacb241ebce0a1d08c8a7492f220ec4852a) (http://ibb.co/cGxGT7)
Next time I will forego the nostalgia and get some milder steel or iron.
Cheers,
Norm