AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Molly on September 03, 2017, 11:37:01 PM

Title: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Molly on September 03, 2017, 11:37:01 PM
I see there is another "words cannot describe" rifle up for auction by the world greatest builder.

Wonder what she'll fetch?


http://www.gunbroker.com/item/685480533

BTW, this is not a pun on the rifle but rather the seller!
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Joe S. on September 03, 2017, 11:49:53 PM
A pretty bold statement by that fellow,it is a nice rifle,quess we will see just how nice.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Majorjoel on September 04, 2017, 12:10:43 AM
Funny there is no mention of caliber or any details as to barrel length, LOP, etc.  ???

Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Robby on September 04, 2017, 12:30:40 AM
Builder, really? seems like there ought to be a better, or more applicable word for people that make these guns. Builder? Trump is probably the worlds best builder, at least in the last fifty years.
Robby
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Vulcan on September 04, 2017, 12:46:38 AM
If I'm not mistaken, this very same gun had been listed on Guns International a few months ago for around 30K, so I'd assume the bidders have a ways to go before they hit the reserve price.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Mike Brooks on September 04, 2017, 01:00:43 AM
I'd have to agree, Jud is one of the world's best.

Actually when I read the title of your post I figured you were referring to me..... ::)
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Spinner on September 04, 2017, 02:09:21 AM
That gun reminds me of the great American axiom, "Some is good, more is better, too much is just right."  Mr. Brennan is certainly a great craftsman and his work is really awesome but, like French Provincial furniture, it's a bit overdone for me.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Jim Chambers on September 04, 2017, 02:43:18 AM
If you like that Judd rifle I have nine more here in the shop for sale, and far below the thirty grand price.  Call me.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: EC121 on September 04, 2017, 03:04:06 AM
The rifle has been on Guns International for the last 2 or 3 yrs. at $35K.  I guess he decided to try to change his luck.  When it first appeared on Gun Broker, I sent an email to the seller asking about the caliber and LOP.  No answer as of today.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Molly on September 04, 2017, 03:38:40 AM
Nice work for sure but I have seen other listings beginning with "words cannot describe".  Baloney!  There are all sorts of superlatives that CAN describe.  A very nice work by a highly acclaimed artist nonetheless!  I have seven or eight down stairs by the least known builder of no great fame (no, that's not you either Mike) and they all look very nice and all shoot better than I and most well below the current bid with a few slightly over.

BTW, I did see a few of "Brooks works" at the CLA show I think.  Nice work, fair price.  Now, THAT is a deal!

Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: oldtravler61 on September 04, 2017, 03:57:37 AM
  My simple opion is do you want to pay the extra $30,000 for the name on the barrel or as Molly said. You can buy a high quality gun from a virtual unknown. That is every bit as well built.
  But then no one is telling you how to spend your money.
  After attending the CLA show for the last few year's. Their are some fantastic guns for sale for under $2500.   Oldtravler
 
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: mountainman70 on September 04, 2017, 04:01:47 AM
Makes me wonder zactly why it is on gunbroker,being sold by this guy? Fine rifle for sure,a bit busy for my taste,but then,right now I am drinking some apple shine!!! 8) 8) have a goodun,y'all   Dave
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Mike Brooks on September 04, 2017, 04:37:52 AM
I really hate over done Colonial American work, but I have always liked the way Jud handles his carving and engraving design and execution.. Always tasteful even if the gun is fully covered. I see this one appears to have a sterling silver patch box, something you don't see every day.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on September 04, 2017, 05:35:11 AM
You know, if you set aside the discussions of value or the seller's description - neither of which are Jud's responsibility - and this rifle were posted here either by the builder or the new owner, I don't think it would be viewed as some may be viewing it.

It is a piece of pretty incredible workmanship.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on September 04, 2017, 07:35:41 AM
...and there are words to describe it!
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: smart dog on September 04, 2017, 02:31:17 PM
Hi Folks,
Jud's rifle is beautiful and deserves admiration but the seller engaged in hyperbole to encourage the sale.  I urge folks to focus on the gun rather than the words of the seller.  I would hate to see the thread sink into a snarky abyss.

dave
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Molly on September 04, 2017, 02:43:46 PM
Yep, great work that was never in question but the comment was about the description not the rifle.  I and most others could easily write an appropriate description.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: mark esterly on September 04, 2017, 03:02:46 PM
read the bottom text and it refers you here  http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/12/jud-brennan-rifle.html
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Mike Brooks on September 04, 2017, 03:19:34 PM
read the bottom text and it refers you here  http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/12/jud-brennan-rifle.html
That really is an  incredible piece of work.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Molly on September 04, 2017, 10:53:32 PM
Indeed it is and the auction ended at $3,125 I think.  If all that was shown was included and even if it was not it's hard to imagine such a low figure.  I saw some of the family "jewels" at the CLA show.  The artistry of these and that of others is just more than most mortals can grasp.  And some of these works are by people who are self taught.  Man, what can you say!
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Dennis Glazener on September 04, 2017, 11:13:35 PM
And that bid was mine, I had no idea it would reach the reserve (but would have been excited if it had :) )
Dennis
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: oldtravler61 on September 05, 2017, 01:30:05 AM
  Well I'm a little confused. After reading some of the posts. Was under the impression it was for sale at over 30 grand.
  Ok maybe I miss read it. Otherwise I would have bid on it. Even had the bosses blessing.
  Soooo enlighten me. What was the final winning bid?
  Tried looking on the sight but no such luck.  Great rifle though.  Oldtravler
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: EC121 on September 05, 2017, 02:53:11 AM
Old Traveler:  The reserve wasn't met, and it has rolled over into another auction starting at $4000.  The $35K price was an earlier ad on another fixed price site not the new auction on Gun Broker.  He does say you can make an offer.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: oldtravler61 on September 05, 2017, 03:43:03 AM
  Ec121 thank you for the info. Much appreciated. Oldtravler
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: David Rase on September 05, 2017, 08:25:56 PM
Actually when I read the title of your post I figured you were referring to me..... ::)
I too was disappointed to find out it was not you!   ???
David
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Dennis Glazener on September 05, 2017, 09:02:31 PM
  Well I'm a little confused. After reading some of the posts. Was under the impression it was for sale at over 30 grand.
  Ok maybe I miss read it. Otherwise I would have bid on it. Even had the bosses blessing.
  Soooo enlighten me. What was the final winning bid?
  Tried looking on the sight but no such luck.  Great rifle though.  Oldtravler

Oldtravler,
It did not sell, it didn't reach his reserve price. We have no idea what the reserve price was, you have to keep bidding until you reach his reserve price. I fell sure the reserve was far above what I would have been willing to bid!

I think someone mentioned that it had been for sale elsewhere for the 30K price you mention.
Dennis
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: oldtravler61 on September 06, 2017, 01:29:31 AM
  Dennis I am not a huge fan of auctions. But I would think that if there is a reserve price you should be able to see it.
  For no other reason than to let bidders know upfront what the real minimum is.
  When attending the CLA show one of the items sold went for far less than what one of the member's here offered.
  Maybe they didn't follow the right protocol to enter there bid I don't know.
  I just know that a few of us were surprised. After it was all said an done.
  But thanks Dennis for your info. Much appreciated.   Oldtravler
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: nosrettap1958 on September 06, 2017, 04:28:50 AM
You don't go to Gunbroker to sell a rifle like that. The seller needs to rethink his strategy and head for a more upscale auction site.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: EC121 on September 06, 2017, 05:33:49 AM
Some auctions don't have a reserve but they starting bid.  To me that is the same as a reserve, but you can see it.  That is a nice rifle, but as Crawdad says it isn't for the Gunbroker bargain hunting crowd.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: heinz on September 06, 2017, 03:15:51 PM
I hesitate to jump in on this thread BUT as the CLA Auction chair I am always interested in auction comments.
This year we had 8 absentee bids and all items went way over the absentee offers. If anyone thinks they lost out on something I would be glad to hear. There is an auction comments thread posted here with no replies
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: t.caster on September 08, 2017, 01:10:59 AM
Judd's work is flat out amazing, and even if it's over the top for some folks...it is so much fun to look at!
The seller also said, if not THE BEST "then one of the top few". I certainly wouldn't argue with that.

Tom C.
"virtually unknown builder"
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: nosrettap1958 on September 08, 2017, 04:18:44 AM
I'm trying to decide which work of art from the 'Golden Age' I like better the recently pictured Wallace Gusler rifle from Williamsburg or this Jud Brennan.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=44611.0

Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: oldtravler61 on September 08, 2017, 04:47:26 AM
  Then we have that Mark Silver's fella an that a he had at the CLA show. Then there's Dennis Preddy another Michigan builder an his fabulous wire inlay work on his guns.
  Jud was a Michigan boy but he split to the far North.
  Would like a rifle or smoothie from anyone of them.  But my piggy bank needs to go on steroids first.
    Oldtravler
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: n stephenson on September 08, 2017, 03:57:13 PM
I guess I`m a weirdo , but I`d rather have 30 one thousand dollar guns , than one 30 thousand dollar gun. Just more fun to me. I do think Jud`s work is "UNREAL BEAUTIFUL"  I am just more of a utility kind of guy. That`s why I don`t wear jewelry , I`d rather spend the money on guns. I`m not a show car kind of guy , I prefer a nice  "driver"  JMHO Nate
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: nosrettap1958 on September 08, 2017, 07:16:52 PM
To me that is a family heirloom that should be handed down from generation to generation with a hand crafted hunting bag and a scrimshawed horn. Whether its used or not or simply displayed over a mantle or fireplace the decision to have one of these rifles built should never include the resale price.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Eddie Southgate on October 09, 2017, 07:09:48 PM
I guess I`m a weirdo , but I`d rather have 30 one thousand dollar guns , than one 30 thousand dollar gun. Just more fun to me. I do think Jud`s work is "UNREAL BEAUTIFUL"  I am just more of a utility kind of guy. That`s why I don`t wear jewelry , I`d rather spend the money on guns. I`m not a show car kind of guy , I prefer a nice  "driver"  JMHO Nate

   Nate ,
   You sound like a man with good sense rather than a weirdo . I am the exact opposite . I own any number of guns that range from things I like to those I really like but what I really want and one day intend to have is one I just cant put down . The gun I really love . Probably wont be anywhere near as fancy as this one but I do appreciate the craftsmanship that went into birthing this rifle . I would shoot it if I owned it , it's too nice not to be used .

   Eddie
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: vanu on November 14, 2017, 04:55:17 AM
Sold last week for 20,700.00.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Bob Roller on November 14, 2017, 04:27:37 PM
Sold last week for 20,700.00.

That sort of thing is only for those with a big income and a willingness to spend it.
I also prefer 20 rifles at $1000 each.Show cars that are seldom or never driven
and hauled on or in trailers turn me off.I'm glad we have the good quality utility
muzzle loaders and cars that can be driven and enjoyed as well as shown.

Bob Roller

Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: jerrywh on November 14, 2017, 10:41:08 PM
 Jud Brennan is a master craftsman no doubt about it. He has his own style and my greatest respect.
 As I have stated in the past I do not believe there is a worlds best gun maker for more than one reason. First off it is a matter of opinion. The second reason is there is a certain amount of people in this world who are about as good as you can get.  On any given day one may produce a product better than the other as far a quality is concerned. That is the reality.  Long rifles usually do not bring a lot of money no matter how good they are. When I say a lot of money I mean over about $15,000.00 or $20,000.00. Judson's gun will sell for a fair amount if it hasn't already. $35,000 may be what it is worth as far a labor and artistic value is concerned but it is a long rifle and that limits it's value to a certain extent. If it was a Jeager it could bring double that amount. Just something I learned the hard way.  I don't think this gun is for sale by Judson. It is for sale by a previous buyer. Therefore it has been sold before by judson
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Martin S. on November 15, 2017, 01:47:59 AM
Why are Jeager's worth double?

I seriously don't know, which is why I am asking.

Is there a larger preference for that style?
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: jerrywh on November 15, 2017, 06:19:23 AM
 Decorating a American long rifle to extreme goes against tradition too much. Most collectors of American long rifles don't think that extreme decoration is tasteful. They think a lot like Mike Brooks.  The most I ever heard of a American long rifle selling for was $40,000.00 and that may have been untrue.  I know for a fact that more than one European muzzle loading gun sold for over $100,000.00
 And a couple of others were appraised at $150,000.00 to $200,000.00.  No American Long rifle would ever bring that  sort of money no matter who built it. 
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Seth Isaacson on November 15, 2017, 08:44:44 PM
I'd speculate you might be wrong with that last statement. A long rifle by a well-respected maker, in high condition compared to most, with a direct connection to some historical event or figure might reach into the $100,000 plus range like some of the high end European arms. Look at the Atchison Hawken that just sold for $109,250. That certainly shows over $100,000 is possible with the right rifle and history. Atchison himself isn't even a well-known or highly influential figure.

All that said, the most expensive long rifle I've seen personally was $40,000 as the price including the buyer's premium.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on November 15, 2017, 09:36:32 PM
I suspect that Jud did not get $20,000 for his rifle, but I may be wrong.  And I think this phenomenon is common...the artist is poorly paid while the speculators rake it in.  I know that several of my own rifles have brought double what I charged my initial client, when sold and resold, and I'm a clutz of a maker compared to Jud Brennan.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: jerrywh on November 15, 2017, 11:37:55 PM
 The  Atchison Hawken is not a contemporary rifle. It is an original with historic value. It cannot be compared to what we are talking about. You would have to compare it to Boutet's or High art European presentation firearms. Something like Napoleon's pistols etc. 
    In the case of the  Atchison Hawken the buyer paid for the historic value not the artistic value.  For the most part most contemporary collectors pay for the artistic value.
   There are gun builders and there are gun decorators and there are both.  I don't know anybody who can build a gun better than Taylor and a few others on this forum like Davec2. 
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Mike Brooks on November 15, 2017, 11:54:56 PM
I know of one Brennan gun that brought 55K and a Gusler that came in about the same. Both went to the same client, both were very ornate KY styled rifles.

You must also keep separate contemporary and antique guns, apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Don Stith on November 16, 2017, 02:00:41 AM
 If allowed to ignore the possible sale value;
 I would rather have my Mike Brooks, Allan Martin and Houston Harrison builds
  Hiding a rifle behind excessive glitz has never been popular with me
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on November 16, 2017, 08:39:17 AM
I think that is why Hawken rifles have such a warm spot in your heart, Don.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Mike Brooks on November 16, 2017, 04:14:19 PM
If allowed to ignore the possible sale value;
 I would rather have my Mike Brooks, Allan Martin and Houston Harrison builds
  Hiding a rifle behind excessive glitz has never been popular with me
I have always felt the same way. I enjoy highly decorated guns but they don't have the soul that a well constructed plainer "hunting" gun with good architecture  has.
 I have noticed that in the past few years there are a couple relatively new builders here that can pull off highly decorated KY rifles  that have warmth and a soul. It ain't the old days anymore, there are some people out there with incredible artistic talent these days.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Seth Isaacson on November 16, 2017, 07:51:36 PM
The  Atchison Hawken is not a contemporary rifle. It is an original with historic value. It cannot be compared to what we are talking about. You would have to compare it to Boutet's or High art European presentation firearms. Something like Napoleon's pistols etc. 
    In the case of the  Atchison Hawken the buyer paid for the historic value not the artistic value.  For the most part most contemporary collectors pay for the artistic value.
   There are gun builders and there are gun decorators and there are both.  I don't know anybody who can build a gun better than Taylor and a few others on this forum like Davec2.

Gotcha. I thought you were speaking of all American long rifles when you said:

No American Long rifle would ever bring that  sort of money no matter who built it. 
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: hanshi on November 16, 2017, 09:21:27 PM
I guess I`m a weirdo , but I`d rather have 30 one thousand dollar guns , than one 30 thousand dollar gun. Just more fun to me. I do think Jud`s work is "UNREAL BEAUTIFUL"  I am just more of a utility kind of guy. That`s why I don`t wear jewelry , I`d rather spend the money on guns. I`m not a show car kind of guy , I prefer a nice  "driver"  JMHO Nate


You and me, both!

And as Mike said, a good "using" gun does often have that "soul".
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: jerrywh on November 17, 2017, 06:59:09 AM
 The best thing about building a $50,000.00 gun is you can sell it and buy 50 good hunting guns or a Suzuki 450 king quad and 30 or 40 hunting guns and a trailer for the king quad.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: nosrettap1958 on November 17, 2017, 08:02:39 AM
There is a lot of people out there that wouldn't think twice about paying $50,000 for a beautiful rifle or $100.000 for a shotgun that they'll wait 3 or 4 years to get. I ain't one of them but good for them.

I was auditing a nursing home and one of the staff had a catering business on the side. During a smoke break we were talking and she told me about a job she took as a subcontractor to cater a DuPont birthday party. They were all situated on the grounds and from the guest house she could see a rather large building but couldn't figure out what it was. She asked the head caterer what it was and she said, that's the hanger for the family helicopters. 

There's a whole nuther world out there.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Dean2 on November 20, 2017, 11:06:50 PM
Taylor, I have to say that I think you give this Judd fellow too much credit. I have one of your rifles and to me it is a truly functional work of art.

I took pictures of the Judd rifle and blew them up several times so I could see the fine detail. Not only do I not care for the architecture/lines of the rifle, when you get it blown up enough you will see that the detail in the engraving, inletting, wood to metal fit etc is not near as good as it looks at a distance. He no doubt spent a lot of time on this gun but to me he missed both the basic gun design and the detailed art work lacks precision and quality. As an educated consumer, I have learned a lot over the past 5 years about long rifles, with no illusions of being a builder I think I can fairly comment after looking at so many other builders who I think produce far better quality.

Some of you quality builders should blow up the pictures your self and see if you don't end up agreeing with me though I know most of you are too much a gentleman to post that publicly.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: blienemann on November 21, 2017, 12:04:27 AM
To all and moderators,

It might be time to close this thread.  Or to continue the conversation without a specific rifle as the example.  The man who built this rifle is a quiet, humble and talented fellow who has done much for our interest.  He did not post this rifle here, and he certainly would not use these terms to describe either himself or his work.  He is busy studying the old guns and building what a variety of customers want - some fancy, some fantasy, some plain like a wonderful quick Lancaster rifle he built for me, and the occasional bench copy.  Take a look at his website to see a recently completed version of the Edward Marshall rifle, including making the lock, triggers and mounts from scratch.

We all have friends here who are suppliers or gunstockers, and it's fine that we offer "hugs" or praise for our friends.  We should be able to talk some up without talking others down.  It pains me to see someone's work criticized when it was never presented here for that purpose.

Bob Lienemann
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: Mike Brooks on November 21, 2017, 12:39:36 AM
Taylor, I have to say that I think you give this Judd fellow too much credit. I have one of your rifles and to me it is a truly functional work of art.

I took pictures of the Judd rifle and blew them up several times so I could see the fine detail. Not only do I not care for the architecture/lines of the rifle, when you get it blown up enough you will see that the detail in the engraving, inletting, wood to metal fit etc is not near as good as it looks at a distance. He no doubt spent a lot of time on this gun but to me he missed both the basic gun design and the detailed art work lacks precision and quality. As an educated consumer, I have learned a lot over the past 5 years about long rifles, with no illusions of being a builder I think I can fairly comment after looking at so many other builders who I think produce far better quality.

Some of you quality builders should blow up the pictures your self and see if you don't end up agreeing with me though I know most of you are too much a gentleman to post that publicly.
I have never had to blow up any pictures of Jud's guns, I have held them in hand and have never seen anything that you describe.
Title: Re: Worlds best Builder..."words cannot describe"
Post by: rich pierce on November 21, 2017, 02:33:43 AM
Probably should have shut this thread long ago.  If any amateur builders hope to learn from pros, it’s best to not bash work that commands 25 times more than what they are likely to turn out.  It’s not good for any of us if this forum is seen as bashing pro work that was not even posted here for critique. Not going to attract pro builders with much advice to offer.