AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: snapper on September 11, 2017, 02:18:30 AM
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This weekend was the 20th annual rendezvous at my farm in southern Iowa.
One of my friends was shooting his TC Hawken .45 cal, and his breech plug blew out of the barrel. The threads held and were left in the barrel. The stock was cracked, wedge key gone, barrel ended up on the ground.
The shooter was not wearing any glasses and was very lucky that he did not have any real injuries.
I suspect that he did not have the ball seated. He was apparently having problems with loading and seating the ball. He is also the kind of guy that talks non stop and I suspect that he did not pay enough attention.
I was over the hill looking at a oak tree to be cut up when it happened.
Fleener
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Common problem...failure to pay attention to the loading process. CAUSE: Distractions.
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Nasty Fleener so the patent breech sheared off from the threaded portion and ended up leaving up and to the rear. The breech block thickness from the interior powder chamber to the threads should have been thicker EVERYWHERE than the same breech on a .50, which 'should' have a larger hole - or does it? Myabe they both have the smaller hole that would 'fit' to a .45 cal. bore?
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Really sounds like pilot error, but that's really a weird place to break.
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So, the threads sheared from the plug ....Wow ! My first thought is wondering just how much powder was loaded....and, what type of powder ? Then there is the possibility of corrosion weakening the base of the threads ? I've seen clean out screws blown, nipples blown barrels split etc, but I've never seen or heard of a breach plug being blown from a production rifle like a TC
Perhaps the breach was over torqued and the threads were already strained ?
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My thoughts also,an over tightened breech plug and a fracture line occurred.
Another reason to question extreme tightening and having to by special tools
to do a job a common wrench should be able to do.
Bob Roller
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One more thing. There were failures of TC plugs due to twisting them with a long
wrench ro align the top flat of the plug with the top flat of the barrel. One DID produce
horrible injuries such as brain damage and loss of an eye.
Bpb Roller
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The T/C Hawken in .45 cal. Is most likely the strongest muzzleloader T/C ever made. It also could very well be the strongest modern production muzzleloader of it kind. My guess would be either somebody has been monkeying around with it, or it has been shot long, and hard, with Pyrodex, or some other black powder substitute.
Hungry Horse
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Would love to handle that breech plug and barrel
Possible to tell a few things just by close visual examination, if the thing is not rusted
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I did not take pictures of it.
It showed no signs of corrosion.
He has had this rifle for several years, low serial number. I think he might of had it for over 40 years.
Fleener
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Maybe a faulty casting (or billet if machined) and over torqued. Or just over torqued and stressed over time. Could be double loaded as well. Pictures would be great.
Glad no one was seriously injured!
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Hard to imagine this happening to a TC. I'm glad nobody was hurt. I bet TC would like to get their hands on what's left of the rifle. Knowing their customer service department, your buddy might end up with a replacement free of charge.
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Lucky fellow as well as bystanders.Would like to know for sure what happened,stuff like this needs to be looked at and information passed along.
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Those shooters that talk nonstop, and load like a high speed robot, worry me much more than those that blow down their barrels. I thoroughly believe that this kind of loading without thinking leads to several of the accident we all fear. I believe the pressure to shoot quickly is as big of a danger as some of the behaviors that are regularly pointed out in books, and magazines, as extremely dangerous.
Hungry Horse
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There may be more accidents than we realize. Many years ago I was club president I had a friend who knew someone in the Indiana dept. of nat. resources who provided us with a 2 year list of ML accidents, About half were smokeless powder and then not paying attention and some unexplainable. A death or 2, then some horrific injurys , eyes lost fingers and arms lost and a young man dropped his ML out of a deer stand and upon discharge shot himself up through a testicle and the bullet lodged under his breast bone. The young man did survive and did marry and have kids. Looking back on this makes my jewels hurt.God was on his side that day.
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To be honest I have never heard of a accident involving a muzzleloader.Range or a field,lots of modern ones though,wonder if they are under reported here.
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The one accident I personally seen was a guy. Who was loading his flintlock an for some stupid reason. Decided to tap the gun butt on the ground while looking over the muzzle with his ram rod still in the barrel.
We think he had the gun on half cock. At the tap the gun went off.
No he did not die. It went through his mouth, through his cheek bone an blinded him in one eye.
That little event taught all of us to never load a gun(or be around) someone who insists on loading his muzzeloader in half cock position.
But just to clarify I don't care if you have done for a zillion years. Your just not going to do it around me. Oldtravler
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I always load my ML with the lock in half cock position.
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So, I am assuming that the 1/2 cock position was : A] a flintlock with the frizzen closed [ other wise no sparks ] or B] a cap lock with a cap on the nipple ? I have heard of rare instances where there is enough residual compound on the nipple or enough force to create a spark even without, but I really don't buy it. I always load with my lock on 1/2 cock , frizzed open or without a cap on the nipple. There are two other issues here. 1st, banging or jarring the gun should not dislodge the tumbler from the 1/2 cock. 2nd....and most important, don't put body parts over the muzzle when loading. An accidental discharge is exactly that. It's why we practice safe gun handling. When I'm on the range, whether acting as Range Officer or not, I call out unsafe practices when ever I see them. Friends or not.
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The one accident I personally seen was a guy. Who was loading his flintlock an for some stupid reason. Decided to tap the gun butt on the ground while looking over the muzzle with his ram rod still in the barrel.
We think he had the gun on half cock. At the tap the gun went off.
No he did not die. It went through his mouth, through his cheek bone an blinded him in one eye.
That little event taught all of us to never load a gun(or be around) someone who insists on loading his muzzeloader in half cock position.
But just to clarify I don't care if you have done for a zillion years. Your just not going to do it around me. Oldtravler
It sounds as though you don't know positively for sure the gun was at half cock,.... personally, I'd tend to "think" he had it at full cock.
"We think",.... is akin to sayin' "we suppose", "we believe", or "we guess".
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This most likely is the result of too much blowing down the barrel.
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I wouldnt load one of these things with my head over the business end either way.Some folks are just stupid,plain and simple.
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My back was to the man. I did not see it go off. But I did administer first aid. It could very likely been at full cock an the frizzen could have been closed which it probably was.
Hard to tell for sure. Because at the shot. The hammer was down at the pan an the frizzen was open.
Yes we will probably never know EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. An like I said. Don't give a rip what anyone else does. Like I said load your gun anyway you want.
Me I just leave the hammer down. Oldtravler
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Somehow seeing someone with their face half shot off doesn't seem that funny. Guess I'm missing something. Oldtravler
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I didn't witness the accident but saw the rifle afterwards. It was a TC Hawkens that had not only been short started but had been short started with 2 balls. When it went off it split the barrel for about 10" right at the barrel lug. The young man lost most of his left hand. This was in Tennessee about 40 years ago.
Mark
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Ok guys I removed several posts, no sense in making light of a tragic accident like this. You never know when someone in his family may be reading ALR posts and see our comments. We just need to keep in mind that accidents like these can quickly occur when we are lax with out safety precautions.
Dennis
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I didn't witness the accident but saw the rifle afterwards. It was a TC Hawkens that had not only been short started but had been short started with 2 balls. When it went off it split the barrel for about 10" right at the barrel lug. The young man lost most of his left hand. This was in Tennessee about 40 years ago.
Mark
I personally did the same thing with that same results. I got away with just a singed eyebrow and don't hear much anymore. My gun was a flintlock 'Hawkins-hymer" in .50 cal with a 1" Douglas barrel. Mine let loose at the breech, never did find the op flat. I knew right after that God kept me around to do something great in the future..... ;)
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Mike Brooks, did that .50 Douglas look anything like this one, from Pa Keeler?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F335gm4h.jpg&hash=39562c90c60fa590124aaac6841c225d62b1de53)
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My top flat was gone for about 18"-20" or so. Stock was shattered through the lock area, lock screws were pulled through the wood and the lock blown off and found later. Stock was in two main pieces and a lot of little shattered bits. Breech plug was still in the wood, held by a front tang screw threaded into the trigger plate and a rear tang screw thread through the trigger plate. (Lollypop tang) I suppose if those tang screws wouldn't have held I'd not be writing this now. I had been shooting this gun for probably three or four years, probably a couple thousand rounds through it.
My load was 80gr 2ff , .490 ball patched and seated. Then another 80gr charge and a short started ball which was still in the barrel when the big boom was over. My thoughts were "WOW! That was sure loud ! And I immediately turned around and asked my buds where my gun went..... ::)
I was Feb. with about 2 1/2 ft of snow on the ground on our woods walk trail. Nearest vehicle was probably a mile away and there was no way we could have gotten transportation there for an emergency, snow was way too deep.
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Thanks Dennis.... People like you is what makes this such a great site. Oldtravler
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If an unseated ball was the cause,that is why I like to make sure I get (a little) bounce on the rod before I proceed to priming the pan or capping.My biggest fear with frontstuffers whether inline or traditional is an unseated projectile.
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MtMan,
That's why your ramrod should have a loaded and unloaded mark on them.
Mark
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All of them do.
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If you get carried away with the military bouncing of the rod on the loaded patched ball, you can produce a detonation - seated firmly on the powder, causing no more than 1/10" compression, is the best/safest way of loading.
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If you lift your rammer about 6" and let it fall, it will bounce about 1" if the ball is all the way down on the powder. It will not bounce if the ball is not all of the way down. Keep yer powder dry.......robin :)
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If you get carried away with the military bouncing of the rod on the loaded patched ball, you can produce a detonation - seated firmly on the powder, causing no more than 1/10" compression, is the best/safest way of loading.
I compress Goex FFG a full 1/4" when loading 45-70 BPCR ammo without worry of detonation, in fact some fellas compress up to 3/8" for a cleaner burn.
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SO, is he going to send the gun back to TC and ask for a new one?
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If you get carried away with the military bouncing of the rod on the loaded patched ball, you can produce a detonation - seated firmly on the powder, causing no more than 1/10" compression, is the best/safest way of loading.
I compress Goex FFG a full 1/4" when loading 45-70 BPCR ammo without worry of detonation, in fact some fellas compress up to 3/8" for a cleaner burn.
I do too, but I don't drive the bullet in with the end of a dowel or ramrod tip, using repeated blows of a hammer.
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If you get carried away with the military bouncing of the rod on the loaded patched ball, you can produce a detonation.
Can you give evidence to support this statement?
Black powder is not impact sensitive and pounding it with a rammer will do nothing more that compress/crush the powder....
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I have not spoken to him since this weekend.
I dont think he is sending it back.
He bought a new stock sunday on ebay
fleener