AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Kingsburyarms on October 08, 2017, 06:08:59 PM
-
Hi All,
After spending a few months practicing my engraving (Need much more) I decided to start my next project - A .50 cal Isaac Haines Wooden patch box rifle, from a Chambers kit. Barbie Had a swamped .50 in an "A" weight, and asked if I wanted to use that - O.K. - this will make a nice light range gun, especially to train with, have my kids shoot it, and first timers. I told her that would be great - but now I need to do a little extra work to fit the barrel into the pre-carve.
Now what I would like to do on this build is to go along and explain the steps I am using to build it. For many on this site, it will be like Kindergarten again, to some, it may be a different way of building, to newer site members that have not made a kit from a pre-carve, they may want to jump in and try it, to others, well... you know. If you see a better way, let's jump in, I'm still a rookie, and this is for my knowledge as well.
Starting with the understanding that on a pre-carve there are three dimensions you need to worry about first - Not just two. Let me explain. When in-letting a barrel on a blank, You can move the barrel forward or back as the wood fits the barrel. When inletted, you can then take the lock plate and align it with the touch hole of the barrel, adjust the angle of the lock plate and inlet the plate to match up to the barrel exactly.
On a pre-carve, the lock cutout (or rough out) is already there, as well as the barrel inlet (in rough form as well) so you have to think of the lock plate and the barrel at the same time. all focusing on the match up of that touch hole.
So the first step I did was to remove the breech plug and (I bought the Rice tool - wow, easier than ever) and measured to where my touch hole would be, then marked that with a punch. I used to just mark it with a sharpie, but that always got washed away, so a little punch mark is the place. (The Barrel is a Rice A 1.66R BP R/50)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbBVNFb%2FB1.jpg&hash=2a54d549ac0e29dc241755be80edaa9450953fd0) (http://ibb.co/gTsr8w)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcYb7gG%2FB2.jpg&hash=7232b05bbd8b3d70dac071ed0404a251ab073661) (http://ibb.co/ixfYMG)
We will leave out the breach plug for the first inlet, then we will take it to the next step.
Putting the stock in the vise, we can see where the forming tool (or the router bit from the pre-carve) left us a lot of extra wood to use. That's good, we want to take away, not have to add.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfEBUvb%2FS1.jpg&hash=3574a4d2d6ace4a6b956f722478f826e198c5f03) (http://ibb.co/ehbwab)
-
Now, we want the lock plate in to measure where the touch hole wants to be. We will have to adjust this a little as we have a little extra wood to inlet the plate:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fjiv6ab%2FS4.jpg&hash=b2766c4b99317ac5dfe4221e58d245fa75895d4f) (http://ibb.co/h3bZTw)
You can see, if we just lay the barrel in to the Chanel, We have to move the barrel back and down to match that lock plate touch hole "Sweet Spot"
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbVNr8w%2FS3.jpg&hash=e5d99c3d8de20e744ea134d482bd94151f44b699) (http://ibb.co/epFB8w)
-
There is a rough out area for the tang and breach plug already, so we will use that as a guide, but we want a nice flat "wall" of wood for the rear part of the barrel to go against tightly, while lowering and moving back the barrel to match up with that magic touch hole. Take it slow, remove, measure, remove, measure.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fgg3W8w%2FS8.jpg&hash=1fc632d28874c1fbd38ed9ea02733a015e1d5200) (http://ibb.co/hinDMG)
Without the plug or tang in the way, keep at trimming the stock and lowering it into place so you end up with the height and the depth so that touch hole is on top and centered on the lock pan.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfBpA1G%2FS7.jpg&hash=c0b1a9d9f396621dd70425918654cafd4f125a3d) (http://ibb.co/hbhmab)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdkzA1G%2FS6.jpg&hash=0211ced8f2e0a48f161cbd485f34ecb91389796a) (http://ibb.co/jRDETw)
-
Now that we have the barrel in place, I will reinstall the plug and tang, and bend the tang slightly to match the curve of the stock.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdS7PTw%2FB3.jpg&hash=b6813f1cc250616033e0f161918f6990fceed8de) (http://ibb.co/gdJngG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkuT9vb%2FB4.jpg&hash=958098c1f9ff6ab56cdfbea55a229b1ddeb9b219) (http://ibb.co/dq5B8w)
This will help us measure the inlet notch for the breach plug and tang. That should be a nice tight fit and the wood should be right against the plug when installed. Now here is a view of the plug and tang notch, but we know we will have to take some wood off the top to match the curve of the tang.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdwZXFb%2FS10.jpg&hash=ca1b164146b72da320d2628f109463ea4b93b446) (http://ibb.co/kP6OMG)
-
Having no idea at all if this was ever used, but I made a template of the shape of the tang to aid my in-letting without having to use marking paint, soot or coloring. I made a template using thin plastic (You can use wood, cardboard, anything) of the barrel and tang, made the opposite template, and used that to shape the tang opening.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbT1hgG%2FT1.jpg&hash=307804ee22a0a392f945f36e82aab8c673cc8f5b) (http://ibb.co/cVjPvb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk6XoMG%2FT2.jpg&hash=c1239a2f5bea3ce620f931616aae2fe34a529bb0) (http://ibb.co/cWHzTw)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fd95Wab%2FT3.jpg&hash=16a9218fe5aaec057bb7d793d92ee385c15f66fe) (http://ibb.co/iQSzTw)
That will help my measurements of where to take out wood and keeping the tang and plug tight against the wood.
-
The results: An inletted barrel with a tang that is tight and has wood contact throughout the entire barrel.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fh5HG8w%2FS11.jpg&hash=9b40880ff34e762704860c3a114001d7e9675673) (http://ibb.co/naMyMG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fi39UTw%2FS12.jpg&hash=c7f8c96ffe88089d5feb3de37af0a01a606cc0d8) (http://ibb.co/dno1ab)
Notice the 4 points I was watching:
1) The barrel is tight against the stock with no gaps or spaces
2) The touch hole marker lines up with the top center of the pan
3) The tang sinks below the stock, and it's easy enough to remove the extra wood
4) The tang is in, tight and has full wood contact.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbB7G8w%2FS13.jpg&hash=03be4eee097fb62f90911cae0863812538b24f8f) (http://ibb.co/jee7Fb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeuwnFb%2FS14.jpg&hash=f2aaa877b6360735585dd774375a7d7a992397ab) (http://ibb.co/gLX51G)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fiyq3ow%2FS15.jpg&hash=5fa5e19001fb5e61b9bb83b619b40c18e3ecbc2f) (http://ibb.co/guOdMG)
-
Now on to the 3rd dimension, The trigger plate (in this case I will be using a set trigger) so I have to use the sear bar of the lock to tell me where I can place the trigger plate. That is already cut into the pre-carve, so we will have to see how much modification we will have to do to the stock (because we are changing the trigger type) More to follow on that as I take and add pictures.
All feedback, missing details, items of interest more than welcome
Jon
-
I like your use of the paper template for the contour of the tang to get a good inlet ;). I've had trouble in this area in the past >:(.
-
The under side of that tang needs the radius removed. I have NEVER seen an antique gun with a radius like that. Besides being square it makes inletting much easier. That radius will create problems later as that barrel settles in.
You need to move on to building from a blank....
-
Thanks Mike - on this one, seeing I have already removed the wood under the tang, will have to keep it's radius, so I can keep a strong fit - or I can square it off and (gulp) Acra-glass it... Anyone have blanks for sale? ;) I'm ready if you are...
-
Hi KBA,
I used to obsess about my inlets being super tight so they look like the metal grew out of the wood. After some experience I learned that wetting wood for whiskering, stain, and finish all swell the wood and I used to always have to go back and scrape the inlet edges so the parts would fit again. After applying finish, cleaning edges of inlets is a risky task. I no longer worry that my inlets are so tight, especially the barrel tang because the finishing of the wood will take care of any little gaps. The gun looks great and I await your updates.
dave
-
Thanks Dave - I appreciate the feedback - I agree that inletting can become a challenge as (like you said) as water, finish, stain and normal stock work can open up (or close) any Metal to wood connection, as I get this basic architecture together, I always like to leave more wood than less... as I'm sure I will open the gaps up as I pin the barrel and add some details to the carving.. :) I tapered the Tang on the bottom so I can reduce (and hopefully) avoid any chips - I appreciate your feedback and thank you for following - Can't wait to set up some time to meet (maybe) at David's, unless a trip to MA is in your future, and just catch up -
Jon
-
I think I had better started the building of my rifle at the same time as you.
I will follow you and I hope you will sent more pictures.
Lots of success!
-
Ik ben vereerd door uw verklaring conversie,
Saw your work (Crossbow) at David Price's Shop, I have so much to learn from you!!!
Jon
-
Jon: you are doing a great job...everything looks just fine. When I started out, I too inlet as tightly as I could, because I thought that was the way of it. But when the gun was finished, I always ended up scraping out finish and wood so that things came apart more easily, and chipping was less likely. Even when I inlet a lock without any gaps, once I take out the retaining screws, and tip the rifle over, the lock falls out on the table. Having to pound on the heads of the lock screws, is not the way ... as far a I am concerned.
So, strive for perfect inletting, but enjoy the process. Don't HAVE TO drive the parts down into their inlets.
-
Thanks for starting this thread. Im one of those new members you mentioned early on. For me, seeing the process explained with pictures & words helps a lot. Also gives me motivation to do the same.
-
Hi Jon,
You are always welcome to come visit. I am just about an hour and 15 minutes from Dave Price. Moreover, my place is very scenic and worth seeing. I believe I have the most scenic shooting range in New England.
dave
-
Dave - sounds like I need to pack up a few rifles and head north... :D
-
Thanks for starting this thread. Im one of those new members you mentioned early on. For me, seeing the process explained with pictures & words helps a lot. Also gives me motivation to do the same.
Thank you Taco - I love to see the pictures and posts of completed rifles and pistols, I really like the posts of these incredible builders that show the little details that help show very specific steps and process, how they built it, how they take items we all have around the shop and make a part of a rifle and artwork. I have read so many books and read so many threads, that I want to post what I do to maybe show, ask questions and learn. Happy to have you jump in anytime.
Jon
-
Good work, Jon. Taylor's work is getting downright sloppy these days, as you can see.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Ff3ePTw%2F100_6502_zpsp8znpoy3.jpg&hash=4de919133041481454074fe4f0865dd10f037323) (http://ibb.co/gSX01G)
upload foto share link (http://imgbb.com/)
-
Ha! - Now that is Stellar... 8)
-
This question is for Mike Brooks who commented about removing the radius.....Why is it important or what benefit is it by filing the radius at a 90 degree angle? I'm an apprentice compared to most of you having built only about six rifles so far and I have always left the radius in (my teacher never told me otherwise). I value and find humor in your comments, sarcasm and criticism so would like to know why. Is it a traditional thing or functional.
-
Traditional and functional both. The old plugs weren't made on a milling machine so they didn't have that radius. Also much easier to get the tang bent where you need it with out the radius.
-
Traditional is good enough for me. I just went down stairs and looked at an original southern that I picked up recently off this site and it is definitely squared. Funny how certain attributes just don't pop out unless someone directs attention to it. Thanks!
-
I removed the video, we can not violate existing copyright laws. Please be careful of posting anything that is still under copyright protection.
For more information on this go to the site https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/faqs/copyright-basics/
Thanks
Dennis
-
Now for the trigger.
I wanted to go with a set trigger instead of the single trigger in the kit, so I purchased a set trigger from Chambers, and did a little measuring. The set trigger is deeper and has a thick "base" to it, so the trigger will have to be lowered so I do not have to adjust the sear bar on the lock. The rule of thumb I am using is the set trigger screw aligned under the "Sear" Bar on the lock. The pre-carve was not set up for this type of trigger assembly, so I marked up the stock, and started the fitting.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fgw1vvw%2Ftr1.jpg&hash=57304f84fb2bacc3afabc48b5aed675adf9e9ee6) (http://ibb.co/mToKNb)
Now to see where in the stock this trigger will fit - front line is the "aft end" of the trigger guard, center line is where the sear bar is (on the lock) The aft line is the furthest back was my measure for where I will need to take out wood for the set trigger to operate. the less wood taken the better!!! -
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjPym2b%2Ftr2.jpg&hash=afab4e7448624db55849c9db3eaf4d3b5042cbab) (http://ibb.co/cwRvvw)
-
Using the trigger plate as a guide, I fitted the width then the length keeping the trigger adjustment screw alignment with the sear bar as the "non movable" point of reference.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FneOEoG%2Ftr5.jpg&hash=891397ad571c1972184f893f226042c190331526) (http://ibb.co/gFKn8G)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfTFihb%2Ftr4.jpg&hash=16516bdf0b518ce043fc60df18a29d75af58f186) (http://ibb.co/h8YEoG)
Once that was set in - I added back all the trigger assembly and assembled the lock and adjusted the triggers to properly operate on half and full cock.
When that was complete, I disassembled both the lock and the trigger, and drilled in the trigger screw that holds the trigger bar on the rear of the stock, as the front of the trigger bar acts like a "Nut and washer" for the Tang bolt. I marked and measured the location for the Tang bolt to ensure there was no interference and it was the correct angle for the bolt to be 90 degrees on the tang. After that was measured and set - I tapped the front Tang bolt hole with an 8/32 tap.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgnOKNb%2Ftr6.jpg&hash=4c37fcebaee38f91b799812089d8f66cd9abc609) (http://ibb.co/e75oFw)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkX7eNb%2Ftr8.jpg&hash=668df9294c7223e1a359996dc5e9cf4b12558863) (http://ibb.co/d5aoFw)
Once I had those locations, I drilled the Tang and counter-sunk it with an 82 degree Counter bit, and drilled the tang through to the front of the trigger plate.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfP5ATG%2Ftr9.jpg&hash=82e69315e922282575f001e4a21613490a3326fd) (http://ibb.co/iiyVTG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fb9g62b%2Ftr10.jpg&hash=2597acc2bde418974d48cc60343ce914cedbf2fd) (http://ibb.co/jbDx8G)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fe8hqTG%2Ftr11.jpg&hash=049c4d01313572195e9345d870791dfa16470895) (http://ibb.co/fXZR2b)
-
One notable, that trigger has a set spring and a lot more depth than a single trigger - so I slowly opened the trigger plate cavity to create enough space (just enough) for the set spring and set spring screw.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfWjFvw%2Ftr7.jpg&hash=6b43ce6c53a4aef4ce701c7522cf5221c4f0887d) (http://ibb.co/hB3m2b)
-
I like your choice for the double trigger, it gives a lot more work, but when you have finished the rifle, it gives a lot more pleasure!
Keep on the good work!
-
You know it's been a while when you find your build post on page 4 :) - Just an update on the progress of the Haines:
Cleaning up and shaping the but plate
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhLwF4m%2FIMG_1856.jpg&hash=e8093b08f43bb5aab65686ecf6dab9c733322de4) (http://ibb.co/gnMhjm)
Prepping the but of the stock to fit the plate and the stock - filing and rasping...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdEZ2jm%2FIMG_1866.jpg&hash=2eec1e1cccd464a48c96b465c61e9ae5a44d2973) (http://ibb.co/ju4Px6)
Trigger Guard shaped and pinned
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcF9DqR%2FIMG_1907.jpg&hash=eea77ad79e5fcab0ffb5833a9e720a81c116c170) (http://ibb.co/evTjx6)
First shaping of the wooden Patch box....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkPePx6%2FIMG_1909.jpg&hash=62215794c2b8bdfa29c5d4d211d04272576805a4) (http://ibb.co/hvKPx6)
Continued fitting of the Patch Box and filing the grove in the but plate for the patch box:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk236AR%2FIMG_1913.jpg&hash=5dba5e2ca80cabe99033e73273b8040697578a6a) (http://ibb.co/cZWF4m)
Some more random shots, the last being the ROUGH cut of the Patch Box - ready for some carving and final shaping - need to take some of the "Thickness" out of it - but the shape is coming along just fine...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fd7whjm%2FIMG_1935.jpg&hash=8f28fa4a3c86641a1c3c73aaff2b7f8d2c922492) (http://ibb.co/kwtjx6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeByHH6%2FIMG_1939.jpg&hash=fa5c8e39b3644eeb79c8781b5e0cc9ef2f6ec46a) (http://ibb.co/ddOjx6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdA1tqR%2FIMG_1953.jpg&hash=b9c2e4d8e8238a011c2f51c2aaba6e22adc6513a) (http://ibb.co/mtzeVR)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeDNoPm%2FIMG_1967.jpg&hash=d296cddf73acdfe8cc61e7916b5b236540969f39) (http://ibb.co/gufKVR)
-
Jon, Whether you meant to or not. It looks like you have put together a pretty nice tutorial on kit building. Like Dave and Taylor over the years I have "opened " my inlets slightly , not gappy , just a little room for finish. I too have had "mini disasters" while scraping dry finish out of an inlet. Jon , your quality of work combined with your ability to document your progress , and teach as you go , makes you a valuable asset to the forum. Nice work!! Jon, I will be the last to try to highjack your gunbuilding plans but, like Mike I am wanting to see what you turn out from a board. You got some skills man!!! Keep us posted , this one will be nice. Nate
-
The shape (curvature) of that lid needs a lot of work. Look at some originals. Do you have the KRA disks? Good source, you can actually grasp some depth with the KRA disks, exceptional photographic quality.
-
Mr. Brooks, which of the KRA CDs would you recommend?
-
Mr. Brooks, which of the KRA CDs would you recommend?
All of them. I have only just discovered them in the past 6 months myself. They're only about $20 each more or less and really give you some insight as to what these guns looked like even with out having them in hand.
-
Hi Jon,
Thanks for keeping up the post on this gun. I was asked last month to build a Chambers Haines kit with a brass patchbox. I consented to do it but I actually have never done a Chambers kit. In fact, I only did one kit gun years ago, so I will be interested to see how it goes. It is nice to see photos of the kit that I will be dealing with and get an idea how much work it will take. I am planning to slip it in between other projects, figuring that most of the time consuming grunt work is done.
dave
-
Jon, I have a question about your barrel. Is it the 42 in. southern classic? That is the only 50 cal A weight that I am aware of made by Rice.
-
Nate - Thanks - I'm still learning but if I can show progress, and other benefit, that it's all a "Win Win"
Mike - I don't have those disks - but will get them - it is in it's roughest form, and much more work to do - I'll keep looking at originals - and please - if you have any reference pictures, feel free to add them to the thread - it's all good stuff. I don't want to have to go outside and pick weeds, or get bopped on the head, keep me in the shop...
Dave - This is my second Chambers - you will fly through it - you are very talented and will fit and finish one of these quickly. My first was a metal patchbox Lancaster. That was a FUN build - I did a thread a while ago on it.
Flinch - I will see if it is a Southern Classic - When I ordered the kit, Barbie said "I have an "A" weight .50 - want a challenge? - and me, I love challenges - it took a little to fit the smaller barrel in the pre-carve, but fun to do.
All Feedback most welcome!!!!!! and if you need more detail or coverage, I am taking 100's of pictures, and I will gladly send them on a disk for free to anyone that wants them.
Chat soon, Jon
-
Mike!!!!!!- - - This is next..... Watch out what you wish for.... :)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fj0b4VR%2Fmike.jpg&hash=296b0c0349ccd69fd8e7f59c08958f4b7cc2e23e) (http://ibb.co/eaXdqR)
-
Mike - I don't have those disks - but will get them - it is in it's roughest form, and much more work to do - I'll keep looking at originals - and please - if you have any reference pictures, feel free to add them to the thread - it's all good stuff. I don't want to have to go outside and pick weeds, or get bopped on the head, keep me in the shop...
For a quick reference go to Kibler's website and look at his custom stuff. I suspected you might not be done with that lid. Those KRA disks will be good for you.....will probably kill all the contemporary influence you've been drawn too. ;)
-
Mike!!!!!!- - - This is next..... Watch out what you wish for.... :)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fj0b4VR%2Fmike.jpg&hash=296b0c0349ccd69fd8e7f59c08958f4b7cc2e23e) (http://ibb.co/eaXdqR)
OK , I`ll bite! What is hiding in the Walnut blank? If you don`t wish to tell .I understand! Nate
-
Looks very early Marshal-type, or a Jaeger to me on the butt drawing.
-
English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle, 31" tapered and flared octagon barrel, .50 cal - Based on an original created by the famous London gun maker William Turvey around 1740-1750.
-
Mike - I don't have those disks - but will get them - it is in it's roughest form, and much more work to do - I'll keep looking at originals - and please - if you have any reference pictures, feel free to add them to the thread - it's all good stuff. I don't want to have to go outside and pick weeds, or get bopped on the head, keep me in the shop...
For a quick reference go to Kibler's website and look at his custom stuff. I suspected you might not be done with that lid. Those KRA disks will be good for you.....will probably kill all the contemporary influence you've been drawn too. ;)
Contemporary, Historic and Fantasy, combined - - doesn't that make a "Next Generation" gunsmith? :) - Merry Christmas my friend - Your input is more valuable than you think. BTW, if I could do as well as one tenth of Jim Kibler, I would be thrilled.
-
Hi Jon,
If you are going to make an 18th century English sporting rifle you really should make it in a man's caliber like 62 or bigger. Maybe you could kind of get away with 58 cal but then some of us might still think that a little effete. You know those Anglicans, if it doesn't cause pain it must be a sin. ;D
dave
-
Mike - I don't have those disks - but will get them - it is in it's roughest form, and much more work to do - I'll keep looking at originals - and please - if you have any reference pictures, feel free to add them to the thread - it's all good stuff. I don't want to have to go outside and pick weeds, or get bopped on the head, keep me in the shop...
For a quick reference go to Kibler's website and look at his custom stuff. I suspected you might not be done with that lid. Those KRA disks will be good for you.....will probably kill all the contemporary influence you've been drawn too. ;)
Contemporary, Historic and Fantasy, combined - - doesn't that make a "Next Generation" gunsmith? :) - Merry Christmas my friend - Your input is more valuable than you think. BTW, if I could do as well as one tenth of Jim Kibler, I would be thrilled.
Contemporary, Historic and Fantasy, combined - - doesn't that make a "Next Generation" gunsmith?
I suppose it makes a common gunmaker of today. Your work would take more notice if it were "historically typical" ...now that would be uncommon today. The point I'm trying to make is it's the cake that is the foundation of the baker, not the frosting. Excel at architecture and you will stand out among the pack!.
I'm already nervous about your English rifle since you included the word "gentleman" in it's description. Study English rifles of the period, they were quite conservative.
If you want to stretch your decorative legs go with one of those French bordello rifles..... ;)
-
Then you may have to close your eyes - I'm making my Issac Haines with a fleur-de-lis Theme - - This could get interesting....
-
Hi Jon,
If you are going to make an 18th century English sporting rifle you really should make it in a man's caliber like 62 or bigger. Maybe you could kind of get away with 58 cal but then some of us might still think that a little effete. You know those Anglicans, if it doesn't cause pain it must be a sin. ;D
dave
With the short cut of the blank...was looking to do this: English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle. Based on an original created by the famous London gunmaker William Turvey around 1740-1750. This piece is an early example of English full stock sporting rifles. English gunmakers sometimes incorporated Germanic features as exhibited by the plain sliding wooden patchbox and square toe. However, the hardware (including the wrist escutcheon, the decorative flowing side plate, and the first pattern acorn finial guard) exhibits the typical relief-chiseled details that occurred on fine English pieces. English sporting rifles in the 1700's were made for well-to-do English gentlemen but could have found their way to the colonies.
From a practical viewpoint today, this rifle makes a terrific, quick handling hunting rifle that is ideal for thick cover. Its short length and light weight make it easy to carry on those long all-day, or all week, hunts.
Parts and barrel from Chambers - his Gun # RK-12 - with my blank.....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdnsaLR%2FRK_12.jpg&hash=5839ac90450d80d6cfc935ca9419f5e387523b3d) (http://ibb.co/jLOh0R)
-
Then you may have to close your eyes - I'm making my Issac Haines with a fleur-de-lis Theme - - This could get interesting....
OHHH NOOOO! :o
BTW, Bob Harn made that gun you have pictured.
-
Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1. In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different. In addition, I think the Turvey rifle in Shumway's book is often the only English rifle of that period that many builders in the US are familiar with. Griffin, Hirst, Twigg, Barbar, Clark, Manton brothers, etc all built rifles in the 18th century and the styles differ. You can find photos of some rifles in Neal and Back's books on British gunmakers. Also Bailey has nice examples of rifles by Benjamin Griffin and John Hirst in his book "British Military Flintlock Rifles". In particular look at the officer's rifle by John Hirst. It has classic English sporting gun lines and is more elegant than the Chambers rifle kit. I chose that rifle and another by Griffin as inspiration for my English rifle more so than the Turvey gun. Also Mike Brooks may still have some photos of his English rifles on his web site, which I believe better represent English styling than the rifle in your photos.
dave
-
It's too bad most all of the British gun reference material is so hard to come by and expensive when you find it. You might contact James Rogers as he might have some good English rifle reference material. He's my go to guru guy for a lot of that stuff. He knows minutia about British guns I never even thought about! ;D
-
Thanks Mike - I will reach out to James and introduce myself! - BTW - I did chuckle at your comments on the French rifle - This isaac Haines will have a slight French feel to it, as I want to find my own way of carving, and I was reading an Alexandre Dumas book a few weeks ago (The Count..) and I thought a fleur-de-lis could be a nice "base" style to use... then you hit the nail on the head :) - all fun and games, and timely! - I'll finish the patch box and post here, get some feedback and some fun ribbing, then we can see about that English rifle.. Merry Christmas,
Jon
-
Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1. In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.
The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.
-
The Turvey rifle in RCA has always been one of my favorite guns period. The architecture is so nice , elegance combined with very little adornment. This piece exemplifies what Mike said about the cake versus the frosting. I don`t know how a person could improve this rifle. I sure would love to handle that rifle . I have "tried" to build it 3 times , and mine all handled very nicely. Nate
-
Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1. In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.
The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.
Jon, You are right on about that big breech . One that I built was a Getz barrel that I found at Friendship in the flea market on a blanket brand new for $50 . It was 30 inches long .60 caliber , with a 1.250 breech . I wish I had a truck load of those. :(
-
Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1. In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.
The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.
Hi,
You can do just fine with a barrel 1 1/8" at the breech and the right sized lock but a larger breech is nice. The famous rifle for the Earl of Eglinton by Griffin and shown in Bailey's book on rifles is just slightly over 1 1/8" at the breech. One problem is that most folks seem to always choose Chambers round faced English lock. For English rifles, that lock is appropriate for guns before 1750 or so. Quite a few of those early English rifles were breech loaders with a screw plug attached to the trigger guard (not a through plug like the Ferguson). The majority of English rifles I've seen made after 1750 or so had flat lock plates. That includes rifles built for military service. Another problem is that the vast majority of butt plates sold for English fowlers and rifles are severely straight like the one shown by Jon. I wish they had at least a slight crescent, which looks so much better. Even the Turvey gun has a slight curve and it improves the architecture of the gun immensely and is as historically correct as the straight ones. It is not always easy to give modern made butt plates that curve, particularly if they are cast steel.
Jon, you are right that those English rifles are a delight to handle in the field. I use mine for woods walks and have currently shot >540 rounds through it. I love the gun. Below is a link to the old thread in which I posted photos of the gun. It is based more on the Griffin rifle than the Turvey and gives you an alternate example of styling. It has a lot of drop because I made it to fit me like a glove.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41906.msg407816#msg407816
dave
-
I had made a comment earlier but somehow it didn't get on here.
Basically,
I don't understand how you can move a swamped barrel forward or backward without having to remove wood , but mostly revealing a gap where the thinner part of the barrel dia now would be??
-
Big,
You're only moving the barrel an ⅛" or so. The changes in a swamped barrel in an eighth or quarter inch is negligible.
-
Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1. In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.
The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.
Hi,
You can do just fine with a barrel 1 1/8" at the breech and the right sized lock but a larger breech is nice. The famous rifle for the Earl of Eglinton by Griffin and shown in Bailey's book on rifles is just slightly over 1 1/8" at the breech.
I wasn't talking about English rifles in general, but saying that if you are trying to make a close interpretation of an original rifle with a stout breech it is difficult to keep the lines of the original if you use a breech significantly smaller than the original. I figured this out when trying draw up the plans for a rifle built around a barrel with 1.080 breech instead of the original 1.20. Just wouldn't look right, particularly when I added 1/2" to the draw length....
-
Let the floggings commence.....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Ff17EX6%2FIMG_1990.jpg&hash=9db4d110131ee9daa7976e7093c183590669a850) (http://ibb.co/gR0q5R)
-
Let the floggings commence.....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Ff17EX6%2FIMG_1990.jpg&hash=9db4d110131ee9daa7976e7093c183590669a850) (http://ibb.co/gR0q5R)
Jon, I like the design . Are you planning to put the back plate on the lid first? If not you might get into your carving while working on the back plate. Just a question?
-
Yes, I have a piece of Brass I have to file down (too thick) and I will align the box and put on the back plate so the small finger notch will be in front of the plate. I may keep a small arch between the finger notch and the plate - I have seen a few of those, and it looks clean.
Jon
-
Are you planning to angle the back plate slightly forward , instead of straight out?
-
With the lid in place file it flush with the butt plate. Then mount your brass back plate and put a piece of scrap brass in the front of the dovetail so the back plate sticks out the proper amount then file the brass back plate flush with the buttplate again. remove bit of scrap brass spacer from the dovetail and the fit of the back plate and buttplate will be perfect.
So, you're going into "fantasy world" with this decoration? ;) I'd be more impressed if you researched some "traditional" decoration" and executed it well. But it's your rifle and I'm sure you'll do a great job with it the way you're headed with it.
Personally I'd consider a Hains or dickert style of carving, but that's just me..... :P
-
Thanks Mike - I will do that - I was wondering how to file the back plate because of the dovetail area of brass is thicker at the base than the edge of the but plate. and I wanted to taper it slightly forward to partially match the curve of the Brass but plate.
I wanted to try some carving and engraving that is different - some people tell me "Make the classics" and learn the style before you go make your own, and some tell me to carve and engrave what you want, and you will learn the skills, then study the originals, and you will be better at making them.
Cart - Horse.... Don't know, but as long as we have fun, learn, share and enjoy the final product, I guess it's all good.
Jon
-
Got some shop time in yesterday, 1 piece Brass plate for the patch box, with a spring steel latch, I used "hidden" brass pins in the end plate, they go into the patch box about an inch. cleaned up the drawing and started carving (very rough right now, basic shapes and size only) , I'll finish the patch box carving today, and start the stock design next -
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcZeXCG%2FPL3.jpg&hash=68e61fc57ee82c6ae7b8c53ee84eb795784e1be8) (http://ibb.co/hfZM6b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjdrOKw%2FPL2.jpg&hash=383b500b0de87e07bbbc4480565f5cc2bc084083) (http://ibb.co/nNcKsG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgC1OKw%2FPL1.jpg&hash=ba0738fdeb688e0c53acdf1357bd6ae5716a0cd7) (http://ibb.co/cTFTmb)
-
Thanks for the photo update Jon. I think my Huguenot ancestor [who's grandfather landed at Jamestown, Virginia] who was with Morgan's Riflemen would appreciate the fleur-de-lys on a rifle. I hope you will post more photos as you progress. Your project is inspiring ideas for a "fantasy rifle" in my mind.
Carl
-
Uh Oh....my non traditional alarm is going off...... ;D
-
Mike - you may need to give me a free pass on this one..... ;D
-
Mike - you may need to give me a free pass on this one..... ;D
Let’s make a deal. So long as you don’t call it an Isaac Haines rifle you can do whatever you want and take no “style flak”. :D
-
Mike - you may need to give me a free pass on this one..... ;D
Ok, one get out of fantasy jail free card...... :P
-
Post Title Changed.. :) -
-
Post Title Changed.. :) -
Maybe more better.....2018 era fantasy build. I'm not knocking you, just trying to help. ;D You've gone far outside of Mr. Haines into "The Outer Limits". :P
Ok, let's see what you're made of now, the sky is the limit, anything goes! (If you need any ideas let me know, there's a few things I have never had the courage to do)
(Please don't anybody get upset, I've PM'd Mr. Kningsbury numerous times and he knows I'm just pulling his leg.)
-
Hi Jon,
This is a great thread and thank you for it. Most of us do fantasy guns from time to time so you are in good company. Mike's comments about making the patch box are bang on and I do those same procedures. Jon, I will be heading to MA soon to examine a NE fowler in the Pocumtuck Valley Historical Society Museum in Deerfield. I have been asked to build a copy and hopefully will have Rich Colten joining me. Rich was the historian for the Springfield Armory NHP and has surveyed many 17th and 18th century firearms made in NE. You are welcome to join us. Send me a PM if interested.
dave
-
Dave - Just tell me when and where - I would love to meet with you -
-
Post Title Changed.. :) -
Maybe more better.....2018 era fantasy build. I'm not knocking you, just trying to help. ;D You've gone far outside of Mr. Haines into "The Outer Limits". :P
Ok, let's see what you're made of now, the sky is the limit, anything goes! (If you need any ideas let me know, there's a few things I have never had the courage to do)
(Please don't anybody get upset, I've PM'd Mr. Kningsbury numerous times and he knows I'm just pulling his leg.)
Mike - you got it!!! - let's see what we can make reach the outer limits! - My deepest respects and yes - Mike and I banter back and forth (online and offline) as he is such a strong and talented builder and I'm a new school rookie - Please, no one should take any offense to Mike and his comments - they are truly from his heart and from his shop - We have the utmost respect for each other - and we have fun about actually getting Mike into the 19th century.. Next step - Electricity :)
-
Jon you mean Mike's giving up the outhouse in the corn field...walls I'll be...
Jon your rifle is coming along very well..Thanks for showing...
-
This is a great series of pics for me to use as a new rifle builder. I too purchased a rifle kit from Jim Chambers but mine is the early york county model. I asked about moving the barrel back to align with the touch hole sweet spot. They said no, don't move it back because the barrel shape is the swamped type and then it may not fit well. They said keep it where it is and to file a small groove in the plug threads to have the touch hole meet the barrel powder. What did you find happen to the fit of your barrel after moving it back?
-
I found it to fit very well - There were more factors than just the touch hole (as you know) to make the barrel fit - The tang, the fit of the breech against the wood, the already cut inlets for the lock and plate - so my best bet was to align the barrel to the proper position based on where the lock plate actually sat. (Back and down)
Last pre-carve for me... it's a juggling act to fit all these parts together with a roughed out form of what it is "supposed" to look like - my stock must have shifted in the mount while carving, as nothing lines up.
Just set that barrel in tight and align the touch hole like in my drawing and your swamp barrel will remain just fine in the forstock.
Jon
-
OK, Some carving progress: Getting there - these are not scraped or finished, just rough carved, doing the cheek piece and stock now, should have it ready for finish by end of the weekend -
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcLyvgS%2Fcarve1.png&hash=77fff6dda25d00be584f322b62f569c6600bb06f) (http://ibb.co/bAWFgS)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbxPCT7%2Fcarve2.png&hash=12cbfdf8db2055709104248028d851d1d3002378) (http://ibb.co/bLY6o7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FjHhXT7%2Fcarve3.png&hash=12cfe76d7056d37eb2d097b8c76370846f200740) (http://ibb.co/knZPan)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcQScvn%2Fcarve4.png&hash=457c106ba630b9786caf814874812d8344f314d4) (http://ibb.co/ipW4an)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmkfK87%2Fcarve5.png&hash=0d9e962ebfcca7a90f8f01f18092d1c9f4d84c1c) (http://ibb.co/mcxMMS)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FetU1MS%2Fcarve6.png&hash=7da47c29e576d4865017ca08a2d6ba34d37ae448) (http://ibb.co/k4rFgS)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhXrsT7%2Fcarve7.png&hash=7c593fcc872e0cbd10008c0fa7a94800f47acc07) (http://ibb.co/eZOjan)
-
Curiosity has got me now. What was your inspiration for this fleur-de-lis carving theme?
-
One more detailed one:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FeQxfgS%2Fcarve8.jpg&hash=f359de2ce17561c9d17b727e9ef7dfbf8531b72f) (http://ibb.co/gqpFFn)
-
Curiosity has got me now. What was your inspiration for this fleur-de-lis carving theme?
I'm a big fan of Alexandre Dumas, after reading a few of his books (I own all of them), I studied period designs, clothing and firearms, and came up with my interpretation...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiYf5Fn%2FDumas.jpg&hash=b5b19566b761ad6052ee73f70fb464cdcaf29fc0) (http://ibb.co/cb05Fn)
-
Here are some initial drawings and designs I found interesting and fit into the period design -
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fh5pJ1S%2Fdepositphotos_12636490_stock_illustration_lily_flower_heraldic_symbol_fleur.jpg&hash=6950d2d00f3ea7d39d9b790a5b6ad65fb3578f34) (http://ibb.co/esvEan)
I drew up a stock design that wraps it all together - carving that now.... The fleur-de-lis as in insert (Depth) and raised vines.... should have a great 3 layer effect...
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FihZAgS%2Fstock.jpg&hash=097736d204d61c187b17487a81c4234e5b319988) (http://ibb.co/hwGO1S)
-
I saw your carving and it looks great!
I had the same question as Mike, but you gave me the answer.
As far as I can see the carving looks a little bit flat, may be you can make it softer with some details.
In the picture you see what I mean.
But it is your rifle and this is only a suggestion.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Ff01zan%2Ff6c47a78033ae1de99a3427efccbf903_chest_tattoos_for_women_tattoo_fleur.jpg&hash=3fe5858d5a6e53436d314f01196b28789da5ce1d) (http://ibb.co/hZLE87)
-
Thanks Mike - on this one, seeing I have already removed the wood under the tang, will have to keep it's radius, so I can keep a strong fit - or I can square it off and (gulp) Acra-glass it... Anyone have blanks for sale? ;) I'm ready if you are...
What happened to the walnut blank I sold you a few months ago?
-
This one is definitely a Southern rifle. Southern Louisiana. Tres Francais! I like it. The carving looks clean so far. I look forward to seeing it finished. God Bless, Marc
-
Thanks Mike - on this one, seeing I have already removed the wood under the tang, will have to keep it's radius, so I can keep a strong fit - or I can square it off and (gulp) Acra-glass it... Anyone have blanks for sale? ;) I'm ready if you are...
What happened to the walnut blank I sold you a few months ago?
Next in line - just got the barrel and the hardware - No worries :) -
-
I saw your carving and it looks great!
I had the same question as Mike, but you gave me the answer.
As far as I can see the carving looks a little bit flat, may be you can make it softer with some details.
In the picture you see what I mean.
But it is your rifle and this is only a suggestion.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Ff01zan%2Ff6c47a78033ae1de99a3427efccbf903_chest_tattoos_for_women_tattoo_fleur.jpg&hash=3fe5858d5a6e53436d314f01196b28789da5ce1d) (http://ibb.co/hZLE87)
Just began shaping the carving... wait until you see the engraving :) -
-
you should go whole hog, and build a French matchlock musket
-
That would be a fun project - - -