AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Gary W.E. on February 08, 2018, 04:33:41 AM
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Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases
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Most places in the US can be shipped to. Is your load combo a tight enough fit ? If your patch/ball combo is not right you could be getting blow by and extra fouling. Have you tried Swiss? A lot of dedicated target shooters swear by Swiss claiming it shoot cleaner. I use Swiss and can shoot all day and never have a fouling build up using denim and tracks mink oil and don't clean between shots but when I use teflon patching in my light bench gun I clean between shots. The teflon shoots the tightest groups of anything I have tried in my guns. Just some food for thought.
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What kind of barrel?
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Can't say as far as build up, but Schuetzen powder, although hits where my Goex loads do, cleans up in 2-3X less patches than Goex does. That was learned in the years when I burned through 8 or more pounds of powdah a year, so lots of cleaning!
Maybe you need to patch it tighter and ram it down harder (proven to lower the std deviation between shots) to get a more complete burn?
Or change your lube? I highly recommend you try Hoppe's Black Powdah Patch Lube ... NOT their typical modern firearm cleaning solvent, but their special (hard to find sometimes) BP patch lube. FWIW I put about 30-shots through a 75-cal flint smoothbore the other day without cleaning ... using 90-grain charges of 1Fg powdah.
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Thanks to all for the help! I have a Rice Barrel and it is WAY more accurate than the current operator! It is way more cheaper for me to drive down and get my powder than to pay the shipping charges. They sell both types of powder mentioned so far is these posts and I will get a pound each to try. The Hoppe's Black Powdah Patch Lube also has my interest. Can’t thank you guys enough!
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Just a couple of things to consider. You have a small bore, therefore less surface area. Using the same load in a .45 or .50 cal. would result in less "perceived" fouling. I forget the math, but small increments in diameter result in huge gains of surface area.
Also, Goex is a relatively moist burning powder. Schuetzen or Swiss may be cleaner burning but the fouling may be harder which can cause loading difficulties.
You can't compare what others say who shoot larger calibers to your gun. You have to experiment to find what patch, powder, and lube work for your rifle.
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Gary............What experience do you have with black powder? What did you shoot before using the Goex?
In general, black powder is a dirty powder. Even the expensive Swiss.
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I have come to really like Jack's Battle Powder from Jack's Powder Keg. It's Goex powder but without the graphite (carbon) coating so it shoots much cleaner than regular Goex. My last shipment was $11.00/lb, delivered.
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Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases
You need to try different patch thickness and also different lubes. Your combo now is not getting completely burned so you are having more fowling in the bore. Each rifle is a science on to itself - you must learn what your rifle likes the best - good luck ;).
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Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases
My .40 cal. Goodoien barrel had a .398" bore, with .010" rifling. I used a .395" mould which cast a .398" ball, and a 10 ounce denim patch, which I measure compressed at .0225". The gun also shot fine with that same ball and an 8 ounce denim patch, which I measure at .019" compressed. This bore had very wide grooves and narrow lands.
Even with the thicker patch, I can push the patched ball into the muzzle using only the stud on my starter and pressing it with my right hand- no hitting needed. The PURE lead ball (as pure as I can get) conforms in to the bore, perfectly. The crown's shape is VERY important and must be made smooth to reduce friction & allow the lead to move, conform into the bore - IF the barrel's best accuracy is desired.
This is the crown, on that muzzle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FijBDrH%2FP6101154.jpg&hash=2c70aedeaeb3cf502dea13f69883b14ff792db83) (http://ibb.co/cxytrH)
I use mostly GOEX 3F but also developed target-loads with 2f GOEX for that rifle. When using a slippery oily patch lube, I needed 65gr. 3F and achieved 1/2", 5-shot groups at 50yards. I found that 75.0gr. 2f was required with the same slippery lube to get identical accuracy. I NEVER had any fouling buildup in the bore - never. Whether I shot a 20 shot trail, or went through close to 100shots in a day, the bore NEVER needed wiping or cleaning. I go to the range to shoot, I clean the bore after I get home.
My .45 cal barrel needed 75.0gr. 3f and 85.0gr. of 2F for the same accuracy. In it, I used a .445" ball and the same 10 ounce denim patch in it, as well, producing most groups with 4 our of 5 shots inside 1/2" at 50 yards. This GM barrel did not like the 8 ounce, .019" patch for some reason. It still shot cleanly with it, never needing wiping, but the accuracy was at to just over an inch at 50 yards off a rest, not the 1/2" as with the thicker patches. This rifle has a .450" bore and a similar crown. After using a tapered grinding stone with EMERY or wet/dry paper on it, I use the end of my thumb for finishing off the nicely rounded, smooth crown.
If the crown has sharp, machine tool cut edges, whether an angle tool was used or not, the crown will not allow you to seat a tight combination in it. A tight combination is needed for accuracy and clean shooting. If you use a tight load, with sufficient lubrication to soften the fouling, the fouling never gets to build up and only the fouling from the last shot is in the bore. That fouling is easily pushed down with the next wet lubed patch.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiJkgBH%2FPB141918_zpsbd7b72c5.jpg&hash=0536626ed257438ff5d02b6c18137a067f5ae365) (http://ibb.co/gViCJx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgPh6dx%2FPB241921.jpg&hash=51b8b118ea41760ca006b6d2da80527b4ca1f1b2) (http://ibb.co/fiOZWH)
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In the .40 that I shoot - a GM barrel - mink oil and Hoppe's BP lube both load easily even though quite snug. Patching is usually cotton canvas duck and the combo allows all day shooting without cleaning as Daryl mentioned. Smoothing the crown definitely does make a difference.
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My black powder experience is limited to only the Goex powder. My shooting consists of only 25/50 yard range and I use 30 grains of powder behind my 40 cal ball. (30 grains is recommended by Rice) I am not really having a problem with the accuracy of the gun but the operator has room for improvement! The only place I am having the real fouling problem is right where the ball seats against the powder. If I do not swab in between shots the port between the cap and charge becomes blocked and my gun fails to fire. I have tried several different patch and lube combinations and although I have made the situation better, I just want to hear from the experts and hope to get some ideas. I am thinking maybe other powders might be better but I just want to hear other opinions than my own! Believe me, all ideas are appreciated!
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I have a .40 rice and when I finished the build and hit the range I was very disappointed. I was loading .395 round balls. I tried both 2f and 3f goex, several different patches and thickness's, and even though the 3f was cleaner burning I could still hardly load the second shot. The third was almost impossible. Also some patches were cut at the muzzle some down in the barrel.
I had bought a bottle of LeHigh Valley patch lube and cleaner but had never tried it. So one day I lubed a patch with it and to my surprise it cut right through the fouling and seated with no problem. It was also extremely accurate.
That was over 10 years ago and that barrel is well broken in now, I can shoot any patch and basically any lube now with no problem, but the LeHigh Valley remains one of the most accurate.
I still shoot 3fg and .395 round balls. 30 grains is my 25 and 50 yard load. I now practice with .015 patches and at 25 yards it shoots one hole groups.
Give the LeHigh Valley a try it might work for you also.
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Gary,
I'm not sure what this means: "...the port between the cap and charge becomes blocked and my gun fails to fire. "
It sounds like you have a Rice barrel on a caplock rifle. I'm not sure what the "port" is that you're referring to.
At this point, just a wild guess though is that you don't have a powder problem. Some other facets of BP shooting do come to mind however:
1. You may have a lube problem. Poor choice of lube, or too little, or too much.
2. Patch thickness and material choice have been discussed so far, but we don't know what you're using so I'm going to say for the moment...if you're not already using it, get hold of some commercially available BP patch material in a common thickness like .015 or .020 and let's take that variable off the table.
OTOH, if you're already using a common BP patch ignore this. I've seen folks having "issues" that were trying to use old cotton/poly blend T-shirts for patching so I thought this worth mentioning.
3. CLEANING...Are you starting with a CLEAN barrel ?? Is the breech face free of buildup ?? If you're working with some kind of "patent breech" is the channel clean, dry and free of buildup..??
4. Wiping between shots is a great idea but if not done correctly will cause more problems than it solves. Improperly sized jag on the end of your wiping rod, and/or wiping patch that is too thick, and/or too much cleaning solution on your wiping patch can ALL combine to create the phenomenon you describe.
Given all these potential bumps in your road to enjoying that rifle...my last thought is to recommend you contact the NMLRA (National Muzzleloader Rifle Association) to find some experienced BP shooters near you. Take the time to go to one of their shoots. Take your rifle and all your gear and ask a LOT of questions. ;)
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!The only place I am having the real fouling problem is right where the ball seats against the powder. If I do not swab in between shots the port between the cap and charge becomes blocked and my gun fails to fire. I have tried several different patch and lube combinations and although I have made the situation better, I just want to hear from the experts and hope to get some ideas. I am thinking maybe other powders might be better but I just want to hear other opinions than my own! Believe me, all ideas are appreciated!
Ok, it’s a caplock. Drum and nipple or patent breech? Can you run a pipe cleaner easily from the nipple seat into the bore? Do you pump water through the breech without the nipple in place when you clean?
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This sounds like a lube problem. A large number of lubes used today aren’t comparable with high heat, and polymerase when they come in contact with it. The old timers used bear grease, or venison tallow, or a mixture of the two. These lubes don’t have these problems.
Hungry Horse
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Thank you all!!! :)
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This sounds like a lube problem. A large number of lubes used today aren’t comparable with high heat, and polymerase when they come in contact with it. The old timers used bear grease, or venison tallow, or a mixture of the two. These lubes don’t have these problems.
Hungry Horse
They also used whale oil and sweet oil. Most any oil will polymerise with heat and time. Lard can be used as a metal cutting lubricant, I would how it would fare as a patch grease.
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Gary, What is your procedure for cleaning the barrel after your done shooting?
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Dark Horse—You hit the nail on the head as far as your description of your 40 except for the cut patches. I was warned by Rice that the cut patches may occur during break in but could get past that issue if I had my barrel lead lapped. I did and the patches could be shot again. I took my gun out yesterday and shot 10 groups with it free hand at 25 yards. My worst group was 2-5/8” with no malfunction of my gun. (I know this is not world class targets but for me it is really good) I had to swab between shots to do this. I think the problem is this simple. I think my gun is so dirty after a shot that when I ram the next shot down the barrel I am covering up the port between the cap and charge and it won’t fire. (On a flintlock this is called the touch hole but I don’t know what to call this port on a cap lock.) I am definitely going to try the LeHigh Valley you suggested to see if this will help.
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What you are describing once had a common name, 30+ years ago, mainly associated with flintlocks, it was called a clinker or clinger depending on who was saying it. Simply put it's a piece of hard fouling that's moved and now covers the touch hole. The one's I've gotten were when I tried to swab out a badly fouled barrel and all the fouling didn't get pulled out. This is the only situation I'll use a vent pick. I have never had it happen on a caplock but I see how it's possible. As Rich Pierce suggested try running a pipe cleaner through the nipple as far as possible before loading your next shot.
One thing I do after many shots and I decide to do a quick field cleaning before doing any more shooting is to run a couple of patches soaked with water down the barrel. Then plug the vent, or turn the rifle vent or nipple side up, and squirt some water down the barrel. Give it a minute to soften the fouling then run a wet patch back down and it will push most of that fouling out the vent. Finish with a few dry patches and before loading again snap 2 or 3 caps to dry out any moisture.
It doesn't sound like you are getting your rifle completely clean at the end of the day. That's why I asked how you cleaned your rifle. Is it possible for you to attach a photo of your lock area so we can see your nipple and drum setup?
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I would think the powder charge would cover the vent hole preventing bore fouling from reaching that far. Oh, well, it may be the fault of your cleaning regimen or the wiping between shots; lube can always be a potential problem. Black powder is dirty and none is clean. I've used several brands/granulations and any difference in fouling has been miniscule. Regardless of type, all BP produce around 50% [+ or -] solid residue when fired. This is the fouling, smoke, etc, that you see. BP is a forgiving and accurate propellant but not in the least efficient compared with smokeless.
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After each shoot I swab the barrel inside and out with a water based solvent before I leave the range. I go home and immediately remove my barrel (Half stock TC) and put it in hot soapy water. I use a jag and patch to swab the barrel and draw and push the cleaner thru the barrel and nipple. I remove the nipple and brush the threads. I inspect the port/touch hole and push a pick thru it. I then brush and patch the barrel several more times. I flush the barrel with clean hot water and drain.
I then run a wet patch of gun solvent to remove anything left in the barrel and there usually is a dark film on the patch. I clean in this manner until the patches are clean. It usually only takes one patch but then a couple to dry, I hang the barrel upside down for 24 hours until it is dry. I apply oil to the bore and exterior of the barrel. I clean the bore with solvent before I shoot.
I have no doubt that I can run a white patch down the barrel 2 weeks later and it would be clean coming out.
I will need to send pics later, I am running out of time to go somewhere. Again. Thanks for the help
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I will offer a slight change to your procedure, instead of hanging the barrel upside down for 24 hours try this. Hang it upside down ( I place my muzzle on a paper towel and stand it in a corner) for 1 hour, this is time enough for the wettest to drain out, follow by 3 or 4 dry patches, saturate a patch with WD-40 and swab the barrel with that, I even spray some down the bore so it gets into all the little crevasses at the breech and Touch hole, let it sit a few minutes then run 2 or 3 more dry patches down. The WD-40 will get all the remaining moisture out of the barrel. Oil it as usual and your good to go. 24 hours allows too much time for rust to start somewhere. Otherwise your cleaning regimen sounds a lot l like mine did when I had TC's, I will remove my Longrifle barrels regularly and clean basically the same way.
So you have a TC with a Rice barrel? How did you manage that?
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Dark horse—How I wound up with my TC? Long story and a LOT of mistakes! I kept my ears and eyes open at the competitions’ I go to and Rice Barrels kept being mentioned as a very good barrel. I like the TC platform because it is very easy to clean. I went to Friendship 2 years ago and talked to a Rice Rep and he told me about their barrels and that Rice was again making drop in barrels for the TC. I placed an order at the Fall National Shoot at Friendship last year and I just can’t say enough good about it.
It might take me a day or two to get the picture you requested. I have a match today and will be pretty busy. I am still very interested to try the lube and cleaner you suggested to see if that may help with my issue. I will update my post with the results. Thanks Again!
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Gary Do me a favor and try spit as a lube. Will not cost very much. I am not much of a believer in a greasy lube for target shooting.I,m no expert but in my day I shoot some fair targets and have helped many younger shooters reach there potential. Give it a try.
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In regards to "clean" powder, I see a difference between Swiss and Goex.
Goex produces more "crud" in my experience, but the Swiss "crud" is harder. My climate in the South may have something to do with that of course.
On cleanup, the Swiss fouling doesn't produce as much muddy black water when poured from the barrel. That said, the harder Swiss fouling seems to take just as much time and as many patches to get clean. Some days are worse on cleaning than others. I do "tight patch" my loads.
On a flintlock, my process is to first scrape the breech face with a scraper, and dump the black flakes out. I then plug the vent tightly with a round toothpick, then trap the toothpick and a patch under the frizzen. The patch catches any drop that may sneak by the toothpick. I then fill the bore with lukewarm water and let it sit. After a few minutes, I pour the water out and then run a few patches down the bore. I will also run my nylon bore brush down. I then refill with water, and repeat the patches until clean. Near the end of the cleaning, I switch to a water-displacing oil/cleaner to finish off the scrubbing instead of water. The NEXT day, I come back and wipe out the bore and add the bore protectant. Just my method on a flat breech gun. On a patent breech cap gun I pull the barrel and flush it.
I hope this helps the OP. God Bless, Marc
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This forum is so interesting to me that it is starting to get addictive! LOL. Getting ready for a "Chicken Shoot" today and will try a spit patch.
I sure have a lot of new ideas to try and appreciate them all!
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If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench. After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball. Never a misfire again.
Bob
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If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench. After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball. Never a misfire again.
Bob
I can't see it? The spit patch is behind the PRB. Nothing has changed. It's still the same as not using the spit patch.
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If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench. After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball. Never a misfire again.
Bob
Interesting concept, however as I seat the patched ball, I am swabbing the previous shot's fouling and pushing it down with the ball. As that ball and fouling is seated on top of the powder, it is
impossible to block anything with it. There is no need nor value in putting another patch on the rod that would wipe the bore above the patched ball. All my patched balls have .005" to .010"
compression in the bottom of each groove. This is what cleans the bore between shots, just as Ned Robert's wrote in 1934, in "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle". I find those rules work exactly
the same in flinters too, of course.
I do not get misfires - except the odd time with a flinter. When shooting the trail, I just load, prime and shoot, paying no attention to the flint. If I have have a hang-fire, I napp the fling. If I
have a flash in the pan, it is because the frizzen edge has shoved a bit of fouling over the vent. I prick the vent- next shot goes off. If I have a complete failure to make fire, the flint needs
napping - I do that along with the next one and likely the next 10 to 20 after that will go off perfectly. I just see no reason nor value in all this wiping.
However, if you want to wipe after or during seating the ball and this helps your shooting experience, have at it.
If you want to wipe between shots - do that too, or any combination of the above. That just seems like too much fuss for me and I'd rather be shooting than wiping.
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Gary Do me a favor and try spit as a lube. Will not cost very much. I am not much of a believer in a greasy lube for target shooting.I,m no expert but in my day I shoot some fair targets and have helped many younger shooters reach there potential. Give it a try.
I agree. Never be afraid to change it up...
I am a big fan of Track's Trappers Mink Tallow. But if conditions are right it will contribute to some of the thickest fouling I've encountered.
Last summer I loaded up and went out to my preferred shooting spot... The ranch owned by members of my family. I set up a target and shot a handful of times. I noticed reloads becoming progressively harder. I finally had to stop and swab out the barrel. Patch after patch of greasy, gummy fouling. I decided to switch to wetting my patches with saliva and encountered no further excessive fouling.
What were the contributing factors to the fouling? Humidity appeared to be the main culprit.
The ranch is roughly 6 miles out of town. While I was there shooting I noticed the rumble of thunder in the distance and could feel the air thicken. When I returned to my home in town, the streets were wet and there were puddles. Oklahoma isn't the deep south. But we get our share of humidity. And when a thundershower moves into the area, the humidity goes off the chart.
Do I blame Track's Mink Oil specifically? No. It is my belief that any heavy or oily lube would have likely resulted in the same condition.
What I have blathered on and on to say is that weather conditions are just one more variable to consider when shooting. Lubes that contribute to minimal fouling in certain weather may contribute to drastically more fouling in different weather.
Keep a mental note (or even better, a written log) of all the variables you can when you shoot. It can pay dividends.
Mike
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I have noticed some shooters when they load with any grease type of lube smear the stuff on the surface of the patch and have an excessive amount of the stuff on the patch. I like to dip the patch in melted lube and squeeze the excess off the surface. I have never had a fouling problem shooting tight loads this way even in humid weather.
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I just put Mink Oil on one side of the patch. It's not needed on both sides. I just rub some in with my thumb and then always let it sit a few days in a loading block.
Liquidfying the lube and dipping the patch in it seems like too much lube to me. Even if you do squeeze it. The fact you have to squeeze it shows too much was applied.
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I have noticed some shooters when they load with any grease type of lube smear the stuff on the surface of the patch and have an excessive amount of the stuff on the patch. I like to dip the patch in melted lube and squeeze the excess off the surface. I have never had a fouling problem shooting tight loads this way even in humid weather.
ditto - never have any oily residue or fouling and cold water cleans it up just fine. Dry weather, ie: low humidity shooting will show if your combination and patch lube do their job. Rendezvous B.C. takes place near Kamloops B.C. and most every year, we have temps in the 90's or more along with humidity from about 6% with clean bright skies to about 80% or 85% when it's peeing down rain.
Bone dry weather is the time when lubes either pass or fail with fouling buildup. Most of us see no difference in loading whether 6% or 85% humidity, over the course of fire, which is usually 21 to 22 shots per trail.
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I swipe one side of the patch over the lube and press it in my board/block. Lube is sufficient but not excessive.
The only thing noticeably different on the day in my previous post was a perceptible change in humidity. The shooting session began with typical summer day humidity and went to oppressively humid in a relatively short amount of time as the storm moved across the horizon.
Perhaps it was the rapid change in humidity that effected the fouling... I don't know. I do know that switching over to a spit patch kept me shooting without having to continually stop and swab out fouling.
That is the only incident that I have had with the Mink Tallow.
Mike
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Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases
You can get Swiss delivered to your door. Its cleaner than Goex but not cheaper. Just buy enough to defray the hazmat fees. If other shooters will pool the money BEFORE the order, its legal to buy a case of powder and then give it to the guys that gave you the money for the order. But check local laws.
Dan
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If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench. After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball. Never a misfire again.
Bob
With a loose fitting large patch run a heavily damp, not to wet, patch down the bore it will ride over the fouling since its "loose" it will bunch and pull the fouling OUT. Repeat with the other side of the same patch. Then a dry patch both sides, load. This will improve accuracy. I shoot tallow for lube and can usually shoot a match 20 odd shots (in Montana), with no issues wetter climates have less bore fouling issues. Neatsfoot oil works pretty well too. But if shooting a rest match I wipe. As a friend says "you don't have to wipe but you have to wipe to win". This if shooting scoring ring or string measure scoring. Its less important when shooting hit or miss targets.
Dan
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IMO, if the crust is right where the patched ball sits on the charge, the problem is with the patch lube, not the “dirty powder”.
Hungry Horse
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I find after a day's shooting, there is a fouling buildup in the breech area. Some times, if I've fired off 50 or 60 rounds, I will dump in about 15 or 20gr. of powder (no matter the bore size) then take a water based lube wet patch or spit-wet patch and seat the ball on top of the tiny powder charge. Pushing this patched ball down through the fouling in the breech simply takes a bit more energy as the wet patch and tight fit pushes ALL of the buildup fouling in the powder charger area down into/onto the small charge.
Firing off this 'cleaning' charge reduces the amount of fouling needing cleaning.
I also do this with my .69 rifle when shooting loads in paper ctgs. After 10 paper ctgs., they (not lubed at all) get a bit tight loading, so I fire off a cleaning shot, using a wet patched ball and 3 drams of powder - loaded with the rifle's rod. That's 82gr. 2F & thick patched ball - this cleans the bore enough to shoot another 10 ctgs., which give the same accuracy as cloth patched round balls.
This sort of 'cleaning' load can be done with any rifle if you are getting fouled - fire off a wet patched ball with a squib load and the rifle is magically 'cleaned' enough to make loading easy again. If this does not work, you need a thicker patch in your standard load.
Firing off the squib load cleaning shot, will reduce the amount of 'grey' in the cleaning water after getting home and cleaning the rifle's bore and lock.
When I clean my smoothbore after shooting shot - with or without lubed wads - the water is BLACK like the keys on my keyboard.
When I clean my rifle barrels after a day's shooting on the trail with NO wiping nor 'cleaning shots., the water is grey but easy to see to the bottom of the 1 gallon bucket. If I fire the cleaning shot, the water is barely slightly greyish - & that includes cleaning the lock in it as well.
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I use Swiss in my pistols and in my long range percussion lock (90 grains and a 545 grain bullet for that). I also shoot in International events. When we go over seas, the only powder we will get is Swiss. So, it makes sense to practice with it. It is more expensive than Goex, but MUCH cleaner burning. The reason, so it is said, is that Swiss uses charcoal made from the Alder Buckthorn wood. While there are differences between lots, I have not seen any difference in the way it shoots. I recently bought a Yazel pistol and shot it with Swiss on one session, then Goex on another. With Goex the fouling was much greater. I had a similar experience with a new longrifle (a .45 Rice Barrel).
In addition to being cleaner burning, it is more energetic per unit of measure than Goex.
The fellows above questioned how tight your patches are. I strongly suspect they make a very good point.
As for cleaning between shots. With the long range gun I must clean well between each shot or else I'll never be able to get the bullet down the barrel (.450 bore and a .4489 bullet). There I am using
1 1/2 f. But with my underhammer pistol in 36 caliber, I use 11.5 grains of 4f Swiss, and do not need to clean between shots. By contrast, with the .32 caliber Yazel, 15 grains of Goex and I should clean about every 4 or 5 shots.
So, if you can afford the difference in cost (marginal) I would strongly suggest trying Swiss
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I used to use a lot of Swiss. Have you ever measure the kernel size? I know the Europeans use a different system for measuring the kernel size. I've read Swiss 2F is very close to Goex 3F. Not sure there's that much difference, but there probably is some. That would account for some of the extra power it has. It has to be more than using Alder for charcoal because Wano also uses Alder and its power is about the same as Goex.
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In any stricken measure, 1 1/2F Swiss is very much more dense than 2F GOEX.
The difference in weight/volume (specific gravity) is very close to 10%. THUS, if
Swiss 1 1/2F gives 15% greater velocity it is roughly 5% more powerful - per weight.
Per volume, 15% - which is VERY important with pre-sighted/regulated antique guns.
The use of Swiss powders can get you shooting to the sights, as they were meant
to shoot, back in the 1800's, whereas it is almost impossible to get any other "make"
of powder to work.
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I've read Swiss 1 1/2F is really 2F with all the 3F kernels sifted out. It didn't have the power of 2F, so they called it 1 1/2F. It should be more consistent though.
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I really need to try the Swiss powder. Although I do have my rifle working better with some of the suggestions on here, it just doesn't seem to like the Goex
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Gary, I didn't see you spittin' and fumin' on Sunday so I think you're getting there. I'll see you next Tuesday for the "O F" shoot. ;)
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OK!