AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Justin on February 12, 2018, 06:10:11 AM
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So I finished my rifle a couple of weeks ago but the weather had been too cold to stand out at the range. The forecast for today predicted a high of 21 degrees and since it's been in the teens for weeks, I decided to get out to the range and fire this rifle.
The first few shots went well. Fast ignition and decent group. I adjusted my rear sight first for windage and seemed dead on as far as left/right goes. Then I moved on to filing a bit off the front sight as I was hitting the very bottom of my target at 50 yards (that was the closest I could get at this range).
I got a few shots in and kept working slowly up but then I started having issues. I'd get fire in the pan but the main charge was not going off. My vent pick was not sufficient and I struggled to get the vent clear. The last two shots took 3 and then at least 5 attempts to fire and when it did, ignition was noticeably delayed.
Between every shot I was running a dry patch down the barrel (repeating with a clean patch 2 to 3 times). I also was using a little brush to clean up the pan and vent liner area but it didn't seem to be of much help as my session wore on. The residue in the pan seemed very sticky.
At that last shot that took me 5 tries to fire, I called it a day as my feet were cold and the guys next to me were shooting an AK-47 with a bump stock on full auto... Just a little loud...
Why was I having trouble after the first 5 shots? What can I do to not encounter this issue in the future? Was it the cold weather and humidity (it is 77% here right now)?
Thanks for your suggestions.
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Between every shot I was running a dry patch down the barrel (repeating with a clean patch 2 to 3 times).
You are asking for trouble running a dry patch down the barrel - it's not a matter of if it gets stuck, but when....
It is possible you were pushing the fouling down the barrel and into the breech area with your compulsive wiping. This could eventually prevent the prime from igniting the main charge.
How large is your vent?
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Justin,
one guess is that when you ran a dry patch down the barrel after each shot, you were pushing fouling into the vent hole or vent liner. I can't remember from your build, did you install a Chamber's White Lightning touch hole liner?
If I read your post correctly, you were using your vent pick, is that right? it's possible that your vent pick was only cleaning out the small hole portion, but fouling was getting trapped in the cone portion of the vent.
Probably not the cold weather, but the problem could have been made worse by the humidity. it sounds like you were getting good fire in the pan, just not ignition, right?
That's my initial guess, based on your post.
Cheers,
Norm
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I have a Chambers white lightning touch hole liner.
It seems likely that I may have been pushing fouling down into the vent liner.
I'm a newbie so please educate me on the proper sequence! I was under the impression that was normal to clean with a dry patch between each shot. What should I do instead?
My vent pick was too short (like one inch long) and the handle came off of it so I couldn't use it very effectively. I put a paper clip in my shooting box for next time... I'd like to get a nice copper or brass pick but so far I'm feeling a little reluctant to pay $6+ to ship one that costs less than $5.
And yes, I seemed to be getting good fire in the pan. Flint was sparking and the powder in the pan was burning.
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Hi Justin, good advice so far but are you shooting the best load combo for your gun? Did you work up a load using various combinations? If it were me I would first work up the best shooting/grouping load before I started adjusting the sights. With out being there it sounds as though you are pushing the fouling down as others have already said. Good luck and good shooting.
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You can make a vent pic with a paper clip or piece of copper wire .
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I'm shooting 0.530 balls with 0.10 patches and 65 grains of powder. The 65 grains are what Chambers recommends as a "hunting load" and that's what I'm mostly concerned with.
A friend of mine suggested 0.526 balls with 0.15 patches (if I remember the patch size correctly) but I can't get those locally so I figured I'd make the 0.530 ball work.
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You can make a vent pic with a paper clip or piece of copper wire.
Already have the paperclip ready for next time lol
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Justin what barrel do you have? Does it have square or round bottom grooves?
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I believe your ball and patch combo is not tight enough. With a .53 ball you should be shooting closer to a 20thousand patch. Loose ball/patch combo equals more fouling that you were pushing down to the breech. Tight combo shoot all day with no wiping.
AsMs
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Justin, IMHO you need a thicker patch and more powder. You are probably getting blow by with that thick of patch. What do your recovered patches look like? If you are getting blow by this could be the reason for the excessive fouling. Work up a good load first then sight you gun in.
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I'm a newbie so please educate me on the proper sequence! I was under the impression that was normal to clean with a dry patch between each shot. What should I do instead?
If you insist on wiping after each shot (which by the way, is completely unnecessary) use a damp patch or two followed by a dry patch or two. When the barrel is fouled, eventually the barrel will grab the dry patch and jam your rammer in the barrel.
If you have a good powder, ball, patch and lube combination, your fouling will be minimal and you should be able to shoot 20-30 shots before even thinking about cleaning.
A vent pick is also not really necessary.
I also agree that your patch is likely too thin - try pillow ticking. Make certain the patch is well-lubed.
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A .10 patch sounds a bit light. Suggest that you check your spent patches for signs of blowout which can cause excess fouling. If you have a set of calipers a trip to the fabric store for some thicker material might be in order. Be sure that it is 100% cotton.
I shot today 80% humidity and drizzling rain. Didn't have a problem. I wipe with a wet patch after five shots.
I agree with smylee grouch to work up your load before whittling on that front sight.
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My spent patches seemed fairly torn up. The area under the ball was intact but the edges were shredded.
I'll get some 0.20 patches before I mess around with the sights again.
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Justin what barrel do you have? Does it have square or round bottom grooves?
It's a Rice Barrel. I'm not sure if it's square or round bottomed... I'd guess square but I am not 100% sure.
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What are you using for lube?
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Get some .535 roundballs and .020 patches, make up some patch lube with winter windshield washing fluid and water soluble oil. 1or2 oz of oil to 10 oz of wwwf. That will push the fouling down on the powder every time you load and you won't have to clean between shots. I would also drill out the touchhole to 1/16". I shoot 80 gr. fff in my 54, I believe Rice says 90 ff is max.
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What are you using for lube?
I'm using pre-lubed patches I got at Cabelas. They're Cabelas brand. I just bought some 0.020 "premium lube" patches from Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies though.
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Or try the .530 roundballs and pillow ticking lubed with lard.
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Get some .535 roundballs and .020 patches, make up some patch lube with winter windshield washing fluid and water soluble oil. 1or2 oz of oil to 10 oz of wwwf. That will push the fouling down on the powder every time you load and you won't have to clean between shots. I would also drill out the touchhole to 1/16". I shoot 80 gr. fff in my 54, I believe Rice says 90 ff is max.
This sounds like perfectly sound advice to me.
In a .54 with slow twist, I'd likely be using 90FF or so.
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Maybe not historically correct......
But I use patches soaked in 91% rubbing alcohol to clean the lock between shots. Almost critical when it's humid out. Burnt black powder residue is hydroscopic and literally draws moisture out of the air. Like you noticed, it turns to almost a tar like substance. Sticky and wet. You prime the pan and it turns into a mess that won't light with a match if it soaks up enough moisture.
I wipe the Flint, frizzen, pan, vent, and bottom of the frizzen.
If I am swabbing, I will use the same alcohol patches. Usually a patch ran both sides is "clean enough". Unless I'm really focused on developing a hunting load from a clean bore.
Like was said, running a vent pick is a good idea too. Gotta keep it open. I usually open my white lightning liners up a smidge.. especially in 2f barrels. But that's my preference.
Also, Flint has to spark...if the lock is pretty clean and it doesnt ignite the pan, I will knock the edge of the Flint lightly. Just enough to make a new Sharp edge.
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When I got started shooting flintlocks, I had the same problem you are experiencing. When I checked the depth of my vent liner, I discovered that it protruded into the bore enough to stop the cleaning jag. I also wiped after every shot, but all I was doing was pushing crud into the vent liner. I shortened the vent liner so the jag went all the way to the breech face and I stopped wiping after each shot. All my troubles went away. I now shoot an entire match of twenty shots without wiping the bore and I can shoot all day without a flash in the pan.
As the others have said, if you have a tight fitting patch and ball combination, there is no need to wipe the bore between shots.
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I would agree that you are pushing fouling into the breech area. This same exact thing happened to me, a few years ago at the Alvin York Shoot. I got the problem fixed, by attaching a breech scrape to my range rod, and cleaning lots of crud out of the breech area, so I learned to do like everyone else has said, and watch about shoving fouling into the breech, also keep a breech scrape handy, just in case. ;)
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How do you measure the thickness of a patch? Seems difficult with a compressible material. Thanks Dan
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How do you measure the thickness of a patch? Seems difficult with a compressible material. Thanks
I use an 0-1” Starrett micrometer (reads to 0.0001”) with a ratchet stop. You can read reliably with dial calipers or e-calipers ... just remember they are NOT pliers ...
I’ll readily admit it’s more of a relative measurement, (as material size even changes after you wash it twice to remove the sizing) but as long as I am consistent in my loads, everything’s fine.
FWIW I know many a MZL shooter using Rice 54-cal barrels that use thick (20 thou+) patches and 0.520” sized balls. From above, I don’t know how in the world someone squeezes a 535-sized ball down a 54 bore using 20 thou thick patches ...
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First off I'd buy some thicker patches/patch mat'l and some separate patch lube. Pillow ticking is usually .018 thick and I'd start there. Put a generous amount of lube on the patch.
Although many don't like wire brushes, they're the only thing I use when on the range or hunting, and not until the loading gets to be difficult. At the time you're retracting the RR, twist the RR clock wise and pull. Then dump the debris...never had any TH fouling problems using w/ a wire brush.
A word of warning......I attach the RR tip w/ epoxy and then pin it.
Also......don't depend on a TH pick which shouldn't be a necessary item when shooting. ....which should be a pleasant experience and not at all complicated.
Couple of thoughts....where is the TH {liner} located.....did you relieve the plug face? Also.....was the TH drilled out to at least 1/16 dia ? I use a #51 drill {.067} on all my builds and it works fine.....Fred
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You can make a vent pic with a paper clip or piece of copper wire.
Already have the paperclip ready for next time lol
Insert the vent pick before loading.Repeat for each shot when on the range and
no more dry patches.
We have a range here I consider as dangerous because of knuckleheads,AK47's
and liquid dumbass before and during shooting.Wear hearing protection if the
range is frequented by these bozo's.
Bob Roller
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Justin, a nice polished crown will also help in loading a tight load combination which will help you develop a better shooting load that shoots cleaner. Dont go by the advertised thickness's of the store bought patches as I have never seen one that was as thick as advertised.
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I agree with smylee grouch on the polished crown. If you start with a ball close to the same size as the bore and use a patch that will fill the grooves you will be half way to finding an accurate load for your rifle.
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As was said above, I believe a large part of the problem is dry patching the bore.
I was taught that if you wipe between shots, you use a damp/wet patch followed by a dry one. This keeps the fouling soft. Don't use a super tight patch for wiping either. You don't want to drive a mass down to the bottom of the bore (I think you did this).
Around here, if the Southern weather is right, I'll get a hard grunge ring in the bore around where the ball seated. If I feel this, I go with a wetter patch to loosen it up. Using wet patch lube usually minimizes this in my experience.
Note that a too loose ball/patch combo will allow lots of blow-by and really foul a bore.
I was also taught that the vent pick is not necessarily to clear the vent hole, but is instead meant to create a flame channel into the middle of the powder charge. This speeds up the iginition. Logically, I pick each load, right before I prime the pan.
Yes, I do wipe the frizzen, pan and flint edge with a damp patch after each shot. Without wiping, the grunge in the pan can really suck in moisture, and on a bad day will get no flash at all. Wipe the pan, voila! Back working again. Alcohol is great for this wiping if you want to carry it. I have found a brush to be useless for this grunge cleaning.
This of course is for range shooting, and the plan differs for elsewhere.
I am no expert at anything, but am happy to share what I have learned. Especially when I know the "why" behind the method.
Best wishes and God Bless, Marc
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I believe your ball and patch combo is not tight enough. With a .53 ball you should be shooting closer to a 20thousand patch. Loose ball/patch combo equals more fouling that you were pushing down to the breech. Tight combo shoot all day with no wiping.
AsMs
AsMs is on the money. I would add this. Most prelubed patches are lubed with Wonderlube or similar "grease". They are fine for hunting where you may go all day before shooting (hopefully) one shot, but for a load and shoot session at the range, I think Wonderlube increases fouling. The best load and shoot lube I know of is spit, but I don't go to the range if it's below freezing. If I did, I would use Lehigh Valley, or next choice Hoppe's.
-Ron
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From above, I don’t know how in the world someone squeezes a 535-sized ball down a 54 bore using 20 thou thick patches ...
The material compresses at the lands and is forced into the grooves for a gas-seal...
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My spent patches seemed fairly torn up. The area under the ball was intact but the edges were shredded.
I'll get some 0.20 patches before I mess around with the sights again.
New barrel?
Is there a noticeable drag when you load it?
The rifling in new barrels tends to be sharp and will shred patches for a while. Try just shooting the snot out of her for several dozen shots. If you notice that she gets easier to load then you have probably shot enough to smooth the burrs/sharp edges away. Then you can start fine tuning.
Just my experience.
Mike
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From above, I don’t know how in the world someone squeezes a 535-sized ball down a 54 bore using 20 thou thick patches ...
The material compresses at the lands and is forced into the grooves for a gas-seal...
It's a lot easier than it sounds. A nice smooth crown helps, with no edges.