AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Pukka Bundook on March 19, 2018, 05:16:29 PM
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Morning gents,
I acquired this gun in about 1982, but only a few days ago got around to taking digital photos.
No name on it, but a Birmingham job. Hallmarked on the entry pipe for 1811, so C 1811 -12.
French cocks, roller frizzens and rainproof pans.
The case is an old Joseph Manton from his days in Hanover Square. I got it from old Bert Hartley's wood shed after he died, (sale) for 10 quid. Had a rotten corner and the moths had eaten the lining. (Bert was a gamekeeper at Thurlby, bottom of Sutton Bank. (Yorkshire)....by Lake Goremire.
Re-lined the case with baize and managed to save the label.
Platinum touchholes. Barrels marked "twisted stubs" under the breech.
Took a few photos as I know you chaps like to see details;
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Ff5z2VH%2FDSCN2503.jpg&hash=af1e4ebbb208d2723093578d751cd141829af804) (http://ibb.co/hdabqH)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdiEQjc%2FDSCN2504.jpg&hash=f46329e163c18b301afb850a0a34b8abfb10266c) (http://ibb.co/i0bucx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fd6rucx%2FDSCN2505.jpg&hash=cb4bf355eee5f4609038be0ea13f4b6f39ef589a) (http://ibb.co/kYOkjc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhqTkjc%2FDSCN2506.jpg&hash=9827e839db639ac77689a285012d5109f8b39d21) (http://ibb.co/fJsBPc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbZanxx%2FDSCN2513.jpg&hash=f645a0f96cc62493b76be80b83f39e8fe2517a32) (http://ibb.co/femucx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhpFbqH%2FDSCN2514.jpg&hash=45217019b3a1b5f36c82d5fe811a55ec88163415) (http://ibb.co/fX5y4c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fik1MPc%2FDSCN2510.jpg&hash=f4155436f8b9e658e99cf9edd032d7a47bc5dd6b) (http://ibb.co/ggZxxx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk5Tkjc%2FDSCN2515.jpg&hash=81671404e7bffc3cc17ba0076bb5992987f11023) (http://ibb.co/gEzrPc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fdcnvjc%2FDSCN2518.jpg&hash=5e615408ed1b468f21014964cad06e4f05a74654) (http://ibb.co/kC2jcx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfGtCVH%2FDSCN2519.jpg&hash=66134969c43ed832657354651d2f1df903660a0a) (http://ibb.co/hoUmqH)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmGJCVH%2FDSCN2520.jpg&hash=a3bbb6b3638029b2e277f8b9fa4dd1e9358cec52) (http://ibb.co/cPumqH)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FimMSxx%2FDSCN2522.jpg&hash=7d4aa7b732839dfc5b56ad800541e05733a836d0) (http://ibb.co/dkRucx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiV2pAH%2FDSCN2524.jpg&hash=d38907865f7b10baed6c57fb60b4468eab16fac9) (http://ibb.co/hh0LHx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FftqsVH%2FDSCN2526.jpg&hash=5c6ebf4b229ff15db9796d7a0c0caee957d5afaf) (http://ibb.co/fWQgPc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fhdro4c%2FDSCN2527.jpg&hash=21ac0fed973941bda8cd8067c39e71bde26a01bc) (http://ibb.co/deexxx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fe70LHx%2FDSCN2529.jpg&hash=98408b72988e4f0fdd69ce0c6fe816c1fe6d3e5d) (http://ibb.co/cZQnxx)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfhoJ4c%2FDSCN2530.jpg&hash=0438947b415794a90057113f4c2b6028af4c44e3) (http://ibb.co/bDTJ4c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfbksVH%2FDSCN2507.jpg&hash=486cd9388653e0c465a5df0f5d576f98cbdc0a80) (http://ibb.co/bF8qHx)
The last photo is the little shot chargers, that can be carried in the pocket with a different size of shot to the shot flask or belt.
Best,
Richard.
PS,
If you click on the pictures, they will show a bit larger.
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How sweet is that
Just begging for a walk up hunt over a setter
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Richard, What a beauty!! I really enjoy seeing pieces like this. Even though they make me feel so inferior about my work! ::). Thanks for showing it. Nate
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That's a nice one, I had one of the same era and quality by Bilby Hyde & Co. Makes me want to go bird hunting again...... :P
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Hi Richard,
Wonderful gun! Nice job relining the case. Did you get baize from Abimelech Hainesworth or from Dyson? It looks like the silversmith was John Freeth. I'll bet it is a pleasure to shoot.
dave
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Richard: does the cock rest on the fence, or the bridle, or both? Do the locks have a detent/fly? Lovely gun in nice condition.
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Richard,
Absolutely lovely! I can only imagine how well and quickly it handles. Have never seen the little shot chargers before. Would love to see some detail pics of how they are constructed. May be worth trying to make a few just for chuckles. Thanks for sharing with us.
J.B.
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That's nice Richard... it pretty much belies the notion of Birmingham guns all being "cheap". I'd venture to say that it does't have a maker's name on it because it was intended to be sold into the trade with the name of whatever "gunmaker" sold it engraving his name on the rib. It may well have gone to a provincial maker that simply didn't bother. What are the proofs?
jp
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What a beautiful gun!!! In the picture showing the lock innards the screw slots appear to be fairly buggered up. For a quality gun that seems to be both used little and well cared for, I wonder what caused the need for disassembly and why the person doing the work wouldn't bother to use the proper screwdriver. Any thoughts?
Robby
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Wel,l I will attempt to answer your questions Gentlemen,;
Smart Dog Dave, I acquired the baize from a pal in the trade, and do not know where he got it. He was also re-lining a case at the same time. Hide glue is worth its weight in gold for this type of work. (Put on the wood, let set, then iron on the baize) This was more than 35 years ago, so if I knew the original supplier, it has long gone.
Taylor,
the throat of cock rets on the fence, but touching the bridle as well.
JB, as and when, I'll take some photos of the shot chargers. They are expensive little beggars these days! They are double -ended, and some have the charge weight on the end-caps.
They have a spring down the spine as does a pocket knife. The spring pivots in the centre, and presses against both caps. Very simple but I think a real fiddle to make And make them look right.
Joe,
Re. the maker, Where the little dogs are lying on both locks, is where we would see a name usually, (as well as on the barrel) I wondered if the locks were just engraved over this area, if they were to remain nameless.
Your second question is a terrible embarrassment! I just looked again at the proofs, with glasses and my magnifying glass, and they appear to be post 1813 B-ham proofs.
So 1813 at soonest. I had looked at them before and took them for private , but they do appear to be as above. V small but all there.
Robby,
Under magnification the screws do look a bit buggered, but in hand they do not show too badly. I think if we consider that it has been used, cleaned, serviced and such for over 200 years, I do not see the damage as remarkable.
The photos do not show it well, but the hammers, (Frizzens) have been re-steeled twice at any rate. The first time, the hammers were worn down to the engraved line very nearly, then re-steeled, worn more or less to nothing again, and re-steeled a second time over this thin worn previous layer.
To put it into perspective, if We had a newly made flintlock, and used it enough to wear out three sets of hammers, I think we would also be seeing slip-marks and other signs of use as well, do you not think?....not everyone had finesse, and ham-fistedness in nothing new! :-)
Thanks all for looking.
Richard.
PS, charger top for JB;
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcwJCVH%2FDSCN2536.jpg&hash=ac84cfedd30a0f6d728cfd098946480eed50f8de) (http://ibb.co/jWY1Pc)
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Thank you Richard. Good to hear it got much use and by the looks of it, enjoyed and well taken care of.
Robby
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Jim Chambers used to sell those shot chargers, I don't know if he still does.
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Richard
Good show of images shows the gun off well , still like the top hat
Feltwad
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Robby,
Yes, it must have had a Lot of use. :)
Mike,
I didn't know Jim C ever sold the chargers, I'll have to look him up and see.
Feltwad,
No idea how old the hat is. It's by one of the oldest hat -makers in London, but not Locks. (forget)
It's silk plush, and they don't make them like that anymore. First ones were made I think in 1797 or so, and caught on slowly, so 1830 I think they were most popular. Its Nice and warm in cold weather! (Traps a lot od air)
The topper is actually all MacDonald Hastings fault!
He made the statement in "English Sporting Guns and Accessories" (1969 I think) ..." I will never know how they kept their top hats on in covert...."
Well that did it! I had to try one and see! Actually very little bother wearing it in covert. Only way to find out is try it.
Now , I need some of those black riding boots with the tops turned down to brown... And this is your fault, Mr Feltwad. ;)
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Splendid piece, Richard! Thanks very much for sharing!
Ed
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I agree with every one, very nice and in nice condition.
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As sporting as it gets!
Super SxS, thanks for sharing-LOVE the engraving.
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That is a lovely piece! If only it could speak. With the amount of use it must have been Col Peter Hawkers favourite fowler !! Great job of restoring the uncase. Did all the accouterments come with the gun? I have seen the odd example of those shot chargers on some gun sights like Dysons or Krank.
Have you shot her much yourself? I have just got a copy of Peter Hawkers Advice to Young Sportsman, a great read, some most interesting observations. A branch of the Hawker family settled north of Clare in South Australia, a station called Bungaree. I new a Peter Hawker as a kid, he told me he was a direct decsendent of the original , he is now long dead as well.
Cheers
Gordon
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Gorgeous!
The flask? I have one just like it. Any information in it?
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Gordon,
No nothing came with the gun,...apart from a cup of coffee while we discussed the sale. :-)
The bits and pieces were picked up here and there, and the shot belt homemade.
I did use it quite a bit in England, but you know, I do not think I have fired it since we came to Canada 34 years ago!
That is about to change. I've dug it out and it will be accompanying me on walks . I had forgotten how much I enjoyed looking at it!
Col. Hawkers "Instructions" is a very valuable book for us. I enjoy my copy & re-read it. We can learn a lot from the good Colonel if we want to. :-)
Scota,
Yes, I too like shell flasks. Nothing unusual about this one, just a common shell flask.
Best regards,
Richard.
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Gorgeous!
The flask? I have one just like it. Any information in it?
A Stand of English Powder Flasks
Feltwad
(https://preview.ibb.co/hDxUn7/100_1095.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gfNvS7)
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Inverted arm for the link from tumbler to mainspring was a
good way to get a longer rotation of the cocks.I made ONE of these
but don't remember when or for who.
That is an interesting and elegant double gun and thanks for showing it.
Bob Roller
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Feltwad,
Very nice collection there! Mine are just kicking around the house, and half the time they are hiding on me.
I always fancied a basket -weave, but not got one up to new! I Do like the little old horn flasks.
Have one marked "Cundy, June 5, 1797".
Bob,
Locks;
I had a double perc. by Wiggin & Elliot, and it had sharp V tips to the stirrups, very like the type of thing we see on a high end scale. They just rode on the 'V' and didn't rotate as a stirrup normally does.
Have you seen this type?
Pleased you like the old gun!
Richard.
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Richard,
If I ever did see such a link hook up I don't remember it.
I may try it if I can ever finish a rifle that's been laying
around too long.
Bob Roller
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Richard, I just saw this and now I'm drooling.... probably will dream about that gun tonight!
Curtis
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Wow! I love that gun. Thanks for putting it up.
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Pukka,
What a marvelous piece of art. To answer a couple of questions; the flask is a common J&W Hawksley flas of the period. The shot/powder chargers are few and far between, and costly, however, Mike Lea makes them and has them available. I don't know the cost but they are very nice replicas and work well. He can be reached at 614-2914757 in Columbus, Ohio.
Mark
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Richard - simply beautiful & well done on the accumulated 'possibles'.
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Richard,
I picked up a copy of the Colonels book from Abe books, I did not realise it was an abridged version with out a lot of information about shooting flintlocks. He seems to think that flintlocks shot harder than the new detonator guns, and preferred his rock locks I think. Most interesting about quality of powder to, also mentioned by William Baldwin in his African Hunting and Adventure about having good quality powder in one particular year. I just finished re reading this particular book after getting a reprint. I first read it at the age of about 8 or 10 and it influenced me greatly. Did you finish up taking that lovely fowler on walks again ?
cheers
Gordon.
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Evening Gordon,
When are you coming for that visit? :-)
Yes, I think the good Colonel had private reservations re- flint right up to the end.
Not had the old girl out yet . I have just figured out I am in a work trap. A bit like a beetle in a sand -hole. work and work at it and just can't get out!
I do need to go walk-about with it, but always other stuff needs doing. V sobering really!
Come for a visit and we'll both go walk-about!
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Pukka,
that walk may well be possible in the next year or two. I find that if I always do chores first I don't get out on my horse ( another great passion from childhood), I to am over due for a walk with a favourite piece, as it is coming into winter down under that will be sooner than later. Life is to short if you are not careful.
Cheers
Gordon