AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Eric Krewson on April 16, 2018, 12:54:14 AM
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I got an exceptional deal on an Issac Haines precarve parts kit, about half price. I started on it today and found the lock inlet was was cut way too low. When I put the pan centered on a flat in the right position in front of the breechplug I get this gap;
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2FgPPsBn%2F100_4968.jpg&hash=7007fac1512f0d04ca2bc69b5d0c35b3723d9d03) (http://ibb.co/muSZP7)
Right now I am moving the barrel back and will be moving it down to see if I can get close enough for my liner. If not I will glue in a piece in the lock inlet and start over.
What do you guys use to stain your wood glue if it comes to gluing a piece in for me.
I think this is a Track kit with upgraded wood, they put the buttplate and sights in and cut the dovetails for the underlugs. The kit sat up a long time and had some rust on the barrel, the bore looked good but I had Bobby Hoyt turn it into a .54 from a .50.
Nice wood;
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.ibb.co%2Fm4qXBn%2F100_4952.jpg&hash=1fffa75d7617c00d68c6c2485b78aaea23021a3c) (http://ibb.co/jtfAxS)
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I don't like precarves either, BUT. Put the lockplate in where the inlet is and where does the pan sit on the barrel? Is the pan opening still fully on the flat? If so, leave it be.
Also, before you go sinking the barrel in deeper, how close is it to the ramrod now? Will sinking it down in the wood make it too close to the rod? If the lock inlet is still just flat out too low, and the "web" of wood between the barrel and rod is thick enough, you may well be able to lower the barrel into the wood some....
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I don't have the pan flat on the barrel but it appears the pan will be right at the bottom of the barrel flat, maybe a hair below it.
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If your flashpan is exposing the corner of the barrel, then yeah, the barrel's gotta go down. Hopefully you have enough ramrod room to do it. It shouldn't take much, though.
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A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.
Bob Roller
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Previously I did one without the lock inlet cut, that precarve had plenty of other issues to deal with but at least I got the lock in the right place. I did put together a Kibler kit but it doesn't count as a standard precarve because it was so spot on.
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A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.
Bob Roller
That's a hoot!
dave
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I think I would go with your plan "B" if you can obtain patch material that is close to the grain of your stock. Lowering your barrel will bring your web into play and the front lock bolt may become a problem also along with the ramrod.
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A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.
Bob Roller
That's a hoot!
dave
Absolutely, I just shared it with a friend who is having a precarve fixed presently. Salt helps the wound heal ;D (Thanks Bob)
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A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.
Bob Roller
That's a hoot!
dave
Absolutely, I just shared it with a friend who is having a precarve fixed presently. Salt helps the wound heal ;D (Thanks Bob)
So long as that salt is around the rim of a stout margarita!!! 8) 8) Dave
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Eric,
If it turns out that you MUST lower the barrel...... most precarves have a more than adequate web. You should be able to lower that barrel enough. It is a pain though. So much for a kit making this quicker.
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I am doing a pre carve now and had the same problem, but not so much. It was only off a little bit. I lowered the barrel and moved it back. The barrel broke through into the space for the mainspring. Not sure if it will be a problem or not. Pre carves are a pain, but they are a lot faster than building from a plank. This is my second pre carve and it will be my last. I like plank better. And they cost less.
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Earl MacFarlane, an old friend and competitive pistol shooter, used to say he didn't mind the pre-carves that were 90% inlet, it was the ones that were 110% inlet that gave him fits!
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I know that people always say that you can learn a lot , by repairing a precarve , and getting it going. There is truth to that . I personally find that I`ve always learned more from a blank. The reason I say this is that , if I repair a mistake someone else made , I learn to do the repair. If I screw it up myself , then have to repair it , I learn not only the repair , but what led to it , and not to do that again. The folks running them off , obviously don`t try to fix these issues , or you wouldn't keep hearing about the same things all the time. I`ve built a ton of precarves , but I still prefer a blank , much more freedom ! If you ever hope to really be able to do whatever you want in gunbuilding, blanks are the way. JMHO NAte
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I have done two from blanks and could shape the stock much faster than I could correct the issues on a precarve. My two from blanks did have the barrel channel and ramrod hole done by Fred Miller.
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I have done two from blanks and could shape the stock much faster than I could correct the issues on a precarve. My two from blanks did have the barrel channel and ramrod hole done by Fred Miller.
That`s why I charge more for fooling with them!! I agree %100 !! People look a little cross eyed when I tell them that I charge more for kits but, I just price the extra aggravation into the deal .They really look funny when I tell them the price of watching! ::) ::) And Bill Gates could`nt afford to jump in and "help" ;) ;) ;D
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All precarves aren't created equal I guess.
I am cleaning up a precarve Beck done by Mark Wheland. I had zero issues. The lock mortise lined up perfectly with where I wanted the touch hole. Lock mortise was left a smidge tight..but it was tight the entire way around so left a nice clean fit when it was done.
Zero issues with it and it gave me a solid start on the shaping. I refined it a good bit and removed a good bit of wood...but I'd definitely have Mark do another.
Probably the difference between a big production run and someone like Mark, who I suspect runs 1 stock at a time and does the barrel and lock mortise etc with care and thought. Literally I move nothing and when I measured and marked my touch hole was going right where I would have put it.
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You guys are scaring me as I wait here for my first precarve kit.
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You guys are scaring me as I wait here for my first precarve kit.
BE afraid! :o
Because if you didn't read around enough to already know that pre-carves _can_ be nightmares, you didn't read much at all. Hope yours works out fine. Some do I'm sure. We don't hear much about those that do, but hear LOTS about those that need fixing. I have been threatened with one, but so far have avoided taking it into my possession! ;)
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I have done one precarve that had no inletting done except the barrel and ramrod groove and hole. No problems with it at all. I would not hesitate to do another. The stock was from Pecatonica. However, I have never done an inletted precarve that was correct. I've done a CVA kit and a Navy Arms shotgun and the problems were mostly sloppy mortices. I'm working on a third kit now for a friend of a friend and it has been a royal pain. It's a Hawken and the lock was inlet too low and too deep. The lock bolster lies against the barrel but the lower edge of the plate is unsupported because of the too deep mortice and I can't file that much off the bolster. I can't lower the barrel because that would cause the rib to misalign with the ramrod hole. The barrel key escuctions were inlet way out of place ( or the staples were installed wrong on the barrel) and the trigger mortice is so far off to the rear the trigger blades won't reach the sear arm. So I am having to make and install patches in every mortice and re-inlet the parts. The stock is cherry and, luckily, I have a facecord of cherry in my woodpile. When I accepted the job I thought it would be a quick, easy job as the stock is from a very reputable supplier. I should have known better. I could have started from a plank and done the job faster and better. This is the last pre-inlet stock I will ever do, friend or no friend.
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I won’t ever use a precarved stock again as I see little advantage. I build very few guns and to be interested, each must be unique.
I did 2 kits and 1 precarve back in the day. Then I got a deal on a kit from a 3 letter supplier of historical kits and it’s a nightmare. Wonderful wood spoiled with hogged out inlets and not enough wood left on to even scrape.
Kibler is the clear exception and perfect for someone who wants that gun.
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the last 8 rifles i have built were of precarves. they were pretty good. but now im working on 2 rifles with precarve and preinlet. they are a nightmare! the inlets are really sloppy. 2 of the suppliers that i get from say in order to get a precarve with no inletting is a special order. so plank building might be the way to go.
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Back to my other question; what kind of stain do use with your wood glue to hide a glue joint after the final stain and finish is on a gun? I like dark guns and will use Kibler iron nitrate and possibly tannic acid as well.
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My favorite option when i don't want to start from a blank, is a preshaped stock from Tennessee valley manufacturing with just barrel channel and ramrod hole. You can get any LOP and they are real fat, way oversized with plenty of wood to play with. There is even enough width to add castoff.
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If your intention is to redo the lock panel instead of sinking the barrel down, you can cut a thin piece of wood the shape of the lock and fit it in place of the lockplate. Make it fit very snugly. Glue it in with Titebond II wood glue and clamp it in tight. If it is fitted well, there will be virtually no glue line. There is a dark color Titebond II wood glue, which definitely dries dark... perhaps too dark. Test it and see.
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The lock mortise is rough cut and way undersized for the lock, it is just cut very low.
I checked the web and found it is 3/16 at the muzzle and a little over 5/16 at the breech. I will have a little room to go down with the barrel.
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Just an odd ball thought - But what about using a larger lock like a Chambers early Ketland. It wouldn't be totally out of character for the kit and might take up the gap. You'd have to do some figuring to see if the mortise could be modified to work. More money out the door though. You could use the Siler on a future project.
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Hide glue.
It does not show as much as titebond type glues.
Titebond makes a hide glue, but Old Brown Glue is best.
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A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.
Bob Roller
I love it Bob! ;D
This comment says it all!
I always think that I'm so smart when I get a deal on a pre-carve and it always costs me more than making it from a blank! :o
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Copy some photos of dif locks from Track of the Wolf catalog & lay over the inlet & see if it lines up & covers better.
A Dale Johnson lock has a little more drop at the tail, possibly it will work. Or possibly
L&R (cringe) plate will cover it, as it is a tad wider. A Jack Haug 1750 is a good 1/8” taller & May work.
Don’t assume the lock inlet is a Siler, as I have seen them cut for several dif. locks.
The key to getting a good precarve is never buy one sight unseen. When I buy one I lay
Every single part for that rifle up to that stock to insure it is cut correctly. Sloppy inletting
& over-inletting is a common occurance because people put up with it. If Everyone sent
those stocks back that poor workmanship would cease.
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I agree and won't "make do" w/ a bummed up precarve. ...did it once when the supplier gave me a big discount to avoid having the stock returned. Put a few hrs into the precarve and finally used it for firewood.
Bought a Hawken parts set from a well known supplier and found that the lock inlet was mislocated, so called and drove to the suppiier and he readily admitted the error but asked me what he should do. Told him a new stock was req'd and he then showed me a precarve that was one grade less than what I had ordered and I found that the LOP was way too short. Seeing he was giving me a hard time while smiling, I took up a hardened stance
Walked out w/ a newly profiled precarve which was his best grade of wood....he finally said good bye to a satisfied customer......Fred
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I think next time, I'll start from a plank. But right now I have my first gun ordered from Chambers, and I'm hopeful it's going to be right. But before I do any work on it, I'm going to ask a friend of mine who's made a bunch of guns to help give it a good going over. If it ain't right, it's going back.
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I am working on a York County Pre-Carve from Jim Chambers and am very happy with it. The inlets were all located correctly and were easily modified when I went with a double set trigger. My only question was the forestock rails are not equal width but I think that will be easily solved when I finish taking down the wood to final form.
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Forestock rails are not a problem unless you got one like I did on my last precarve that had almost none on one side and a 1/4" on the other.
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Earl MacFarlane, an old friend and competitive pistol shooter, used to say he didn't mind the pre-carves that were 90% inlet, it was the ones that were 110% inlet that gave him fits!
Earl MacFarlane is distantly related to Taylor and I on our Mother's Father's side of the family.
One of these days I am going to join Clan MacFarlane.
110% inlet - THAT's a good one. ;D
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I traded into a pre carved J.P. Beck with a "B" weight barrel channel awhile back. I was thinking about trying to get a "C" weight worked into it. I don't think it would be enough change in the width to push the lock out of the side of the lock mortise too much. Have any of y'all ever attempted this before?
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Would a bigger lock be a fix?
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I have used boat builders glue. It is a two part resin and powder and is a dark color that is hard to see on stained maple. One goof up on a cherry stock looks like a typical bark inclusion.
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The only pre-carve I ever use only has the buttstock shaped with barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled. Anything else is a pain in the butt to work with.
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I have a rifle from a well respected builder who will not build from a pre-carved stock. He had too many problems such as you mention and started refusing to build these rifles for any customer. He built from planks and never had any complaints after that time.
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The only pre-carve I ever use only has the buttstock shaped with barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled. Anything else is a pain in the butt to work with.
That is the way I have ordered the current build.
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VERY new here on the Forum. Most experience to date has been working on and building center fires, though my first rifle was (in 1960) an original 1863 Springfield. And I do now have a yen to build a flintlock, so I am trying to read everything I can on the subject.
I find myself drawn to the style of Rupp, a Lehigh County builder, I think. I like the sweep of the wrist and butt stock, and the ornamentation.
But, being 72, and with some upcoming cardiac re-plumbing, I can no longer start from a plank. So, looking at "precarves"! And reading here, do not want to come up with a lemon. My idea is to get a stock with the barrel channel and the ramrod hole already done. I have no problem with inletting the rest of the pieces.
So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?
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Almost forgot! "Weldwood" is a two part (non-epoxy) waterproof glue for use on wood. It is reddish in color, and would go with most maple that I have seen. The secret, tho, is to make the joint so that it is almost impossible to see anyway. I have used it on boats and airplanes (yep, we do have wooden airplanes) with great success. Have not seen it for a while tho.
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So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?
I can recommend Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply.
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I am in somewhat of the same frame of mind. I've settled on a path for my first longrifle, a Kibler kit, which is essentially a disassembled in-the-white rifle that needs only a few small details completed before assembly and finishing. This will be my route for my first longrifle, due to the fact that I have never even seen a real longrifle in the flesh, my only experience with traditional style muzzleloaders being Hawken-types. It would be helpful to have a more detailed perspective on architecture, proportions and general assembly before I take on a plank build. I'm not hesitant WRT my woodworking and metal working skills to scratch build, but I would like a better general perspective on what a longrifle is all about, what it is *supposed* to be. I DON'T want to get into a situation like Eric is dealing with. I can't abide having to fix someone else's mistakes. I'm perfectly capable of screwing something up all on my own, and if I have to fix something, I'd rather it be my own oopsie.
VERY new here on the Forum. Most experience to date has been working on and building center fires, though my first rifle was (in 1960) an original 1863 Springfield. And I do now have a yen to build a flintlock, so I am trying to read everything I can on the subject.
I find myself drawn to the style of Rupp, a Lehigh County builder, I think. I like the sweep of the wrist and butt stock, and the ornamentation.
But, being 72, and with some upcoming cardiac re-plumbing, I can no longer start from a plank. So, looking at "precarves"! And reading here, do not want to come up with a lemon. My idea is to get a stock with the barrel channel and the ramrod hole already done. I have no problem with inletting the rest of the pieces.
So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?
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After looking at various suppliers, I decided on a Herman Rupp 1793 build, and talked extensively with Ryan and Terry Jo at Muzzleloader Builders Supply in Idaho.
Earlier this week, received lock, stock, and barrel from them, and am very pleased. The basics of the barrel channel, ramrod hole and lock were done by Ryan, but plenty left to do on all three of these.
Went to the store to get a 5/16" dowel, to sand the ramrod hole to size, and for some reason, walked out with a 5/32" dowel! Maybe I can glue two pieces together??? Nah, took Shop Dog Sunny with me today, and she made sure I got the right size.
BTW, when looking for a few nuts and bolts for another project at Lowe's, I spotted some drawers for science fair projects. Looking inside, my eye was taken by 4" x 4" squares of brass, copper, and "tin" - just what I needed for practicing engraving. So, beneficial side to getting the wrong thing yesterday.
That Jim Chambers L-19, "Dale Johnson" is really top notch! Very impressed by the workmanship, and by the thoughts that lead mankind to come up with such a great mechanism when power tools were powered by a waterwheel, and candles were the source of light.
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That Jim Chambers L-19, "Dale Johnson" is really top notch! Very impressed by the workmanship, and by the thoughts that lead mankind to come up with such a great mechanism when power tools were powered by a waterwheel, and candles were the source of light.
I'm in awe of what the old timer machinists, smiths, carpenters etc were able to accomplish with the tools and technology they had available. Real craftsmanship. Those old boys knew their bidness, that's for sure.
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OK, I measured the web at the breech as I started down with the barrel, dang, it is 3/8" not 5/16 like I first thought.
If I lower the barrel 1/4" the pan will be sitting almost center of the flat like it is supposed to.
I am using permatex prussion blue for marking and found it works very well but this is super curly wood, very hard to scrape without chattering and splinters with even very sharp tools because the grain changes direction very quickly.
I was thinking about using a forstner bit to cut the bottom inlet flat to down to just above the desired 1/8" web and trimming up the rest of the wood. At the rate I am going now with just scraping and light chiseling it will take me a month to get the barrel down where it needs to be. I made an octagon scraper but this wood doesn't scrape worth a hoot.
Any suggestions for faster wood removal?
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You're sure the barrel is seated in the channel? Saw one time where somebody had their ramrod hole marked on the side of the stock, then set the barrel in to mark down to the bottom of the channel. Turned out later the barrel wasn't hitting bottom.
With the barrel seated in the current channel, does the top of the barrel sit 1/4" above the top of the wrist at the breech?
If not - meaning the top of the barrel is close to flush with the top of the wrist - dropping it in a quarter inch deeper could cause you some shaping problems depending on how much wood you have to work with.
Sometimes you have to attack a problem like this from multiple angles. A bigger lock as Dphariss mentioned may help a bit, and you may also need to do a little filling of the mortise and set the vent as low as possible. You may need to still drop the barrel a bit but much less than 1/4".
Direct drilling the vent and coning from the inside might also help as long as you don't try to get too close to the corner of the flat , and if you ever need to bush it you can make a solid liner and drill / cone the vent hole off center - have to plan for it though, you don't want to get into the threads with the cone.
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So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?
I can recommend Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply.
I have had good success with Knob Mountain (David Keck) His brass is also very nice.
Bob
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That Jim Chambers L-19, "Dale Johnson" is really top notch! Very impressed by the workmanship, and by the thoughts that lead mankind to come up with such a great mechanism when power tools were powered by a waterwheel, and candles were the source of light.
I'm in awe of what the old timer machinists, smiths, carpenters etc were able to accomplish with the tools and technology they had available. Real craftsmanship. Those old boys knew their bidness, that's for sure.
They had to "make do" with what they had on hand and were masters of improvisation.
Poor people with poor ways buy they worked and their rekics are proof of that.
Bob Roller