AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: m1garand_man on April 16, 2018, 08:19:21 PM
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Taking some of your suggestions in mine I went out to shoot again this weekend. I decided at least for now to give the coconut oil one more try and I still have a bunch of it and patches already lubed up with it. It turns out in warmer weather, when it is at least partially liquid it works great. I did not have any un burnt powder stuck to my patches anymore. And I had no issues with ramming unless I let the gun sit long enough for things to crust up. I probably fired around 40 shots on saturday.
Additionally switching to a .020 patch with my .490 balls I was able to get some pretty decent accuracy in the end. During the beginning of my range session I was still using some 1 to 1.5" orange pasters on my target at a hundred yards and was still having some fliers. Eventually I ran out of those and was forced to use a 4" orange paser and lo and behold, because I was able to see the thing I was finally able to group! Out of 15 shots on one target all but two of them were in the eight or nine inch black circle and quite a few of them where near the bull, though I need to do some more sight corrections it seems.
So it turns out the flies may have had less to do with the guns and more with the target in the end. That was an unexpected revalation indeed.
I definately want to thank everyone for thier help and concern. I'll try to post pictures of the target tonight when I get home.
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You can't hit what you can't see.
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There is a coconut oil that isn't temperature sensitive. It is liquid at all temps. I mix a little in the mink oil to soften it up. Actually, I use the mink oil to thicken up the coconut oil.
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Exactly what Frank said!
Good it is getting sorted for you. :-)
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"I decided at least for now to give the coconut oil one more try and I still have a bunch of it and patches already lubed up with it. It turns out in warmer weather, when it is at least partially liquid it works great."
My experience as well, m1garand....
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You can't hit what you can't see.
Frank, You're wrong. You can hit what you can't see., but it's an extremely rare event! ;)
I've hit things I didn't even know were there.
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You can't hit what you can't see.
Frank, You're wrong. You can hit what you can't see., but it's an extremely rare event! ;)
I've hit things I didn't even know were there.
That's some darn good shootin'. LOL
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcUoO47%2F20180416_231759.jpg&hash=7eca8834fdd9ab8fb9f213337eabc4102a515699) (http://ibb.co/g5rMrn)
So there is the target. I only counted 14 holes. I doubt I completely missed the target on one of those but since round balls rarely punch round holes it can get hard to tell when there are two shots on top of one another.
I'm still hoping I can eventually shrink the group size by half. I have been shooting 80 grains of old eynesford. I plan on trying Swiss soon. I am also hoping to get some null b as well for priming to speed up the already quick lock time on my rifle. As things are now with my home knapped texas chert flints and 10 or so grains of 4f ignition is very quick.
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I count 14 as well. If you put a fresh piece of card-board behind your target, the holes will show 'doubles' and 'triples', more distinctly.
Something else that works well, is "coroplast" plastic cardboard, ie: sign-board material for a backer. A sheet lasts a long time, as well.
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I count 14 as well. If you put a fresh piece of card-board behind your target, the holes will show 'doubles' and 'triples', more distinctly.
Something else that works well, is "coroplast" plastic cardboard, ie: sign-board material for a backer. A sheet lasts a long time, as well.
They have coroplast backers at the range but they are shot up. I'll have to bring carboard next weekend.
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Is my group fairly typical for 100y? I've seen some photos of original targets in some of the books I've read that indicate some rifles could do much better but I don't know what typical looks like.
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You can't hit what you can't see.
Frank, You're wrong. You can hit what you can't see., but it's an extremely rare event! ;)
I've hit things I didn't even know were there.
That's some darn good shootin'. LOL
Thanks Rollingb,
It's great because when I do actually put out a target it lasts a long time. :o
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100 yards is a long way for primitive sights and lousy eyes. 5 shots in 3.5" to 4" is the very best I've been able to do on my very good days, which are rare.
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Eye sight or lack thereof, lighting, sight size & shape, target size, colour and shape, & almost most importantly, your load, all effect group size at any range.
Added to that, is the bench shooting technique - sitting position, feet position, height, comfort, chest touching bench, holding forend or letting it bounce, sand bags- tightness
of softness - it all makes a difference.
The further the range, the more "weight" each of these had on potential groups size. Poor combinations,as in not enough powder, too-thin patches, poor anything else adds
up to have little chance of shooting well at longer ranges.
For instance, I shoot much better at 50yards if I am using a 4" black circle - or, a target with 1" thick rings of black on a white page. For some reason, this allows a much
more accurate, 6 o'clock hold on one of the 1" black bands with a post, as well as an 'aperture' effect when using a front bead & holding centre. With the .69, I like holding
the forend in my left hand, resting the back of my hand on the front bag -- no rear bag. Other guns, like the .36 and .50, like to have the forend resting on the bag, no rear
bag. The point of rest for both of those, is just back of the entry pipe. Some guns are particular where they are rested.
I used targetz.com(various targets) for most of my copied targets for BP as well as modern guns.
Black circle just over 1/2 way down this page, target Target No: 10098.
http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10098.pdf
Circles = Target No: 10142
http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10142.pdf
For 100 yards, my best shooting was on one of the commercial targets with red bullseyes - big one in the middle and 4 smaller ones, in the corners.
This made it easy to aim with my Express sights on the .69. The 200yard target we used for the postal match, was good for 200yards. I do not
have our benched practice targets, but both Taylor and I managed 5 shot groups at 200yards that were less than 2 moa (4") on that target. It had a 12" square black
bull's eye, with a 5" square white centre. He was shooting his .62 Hawken with 127gr. 2F and a tightly patched .615" ball while I used 165gr. 2F and
as tightly patched .682" ball.
The load is VERY important when shooting past about 30yards. That is where having an accurate load makes a very big difference. If interested in this type
of shooting, looking up chunk shooter's loads (shot at 60yards), or plank shooters loads (also shot at 60yards) or if interested in longer ranges, check out
round ball bench rest shooter's loads. That will give you an idea what works - out there.
This is a 10 shot group, 8 off the rest and 2 offhand shots) shot at 50yards with, for this rifle, is a light load, developing 1,200fps. I noted on the target that
this load also shot into 2" at 100 meters. Also, the measurements were wrong as I subtracted the .684" round ball's diameter, instead of .675" which was the ball I used. Thus, the C to C
measurement should have been 1.105" for the 10 shots.
The patch was my normal 12 ounce denim that I measured at .025" with mic, and .030" with calipers. The ball was .675" and pure lead.
This combination runs .735" using the calipers measurement and .725" using the mic's measurement, both being will over the rifle's .714" groove to groove measurement.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FkfTpwn%2FP1012729.jpg&hash=03ed0b10d3be400bea835778f667f6cb877e133a) (http://ibb.co/b3UJp7)
This target was an experiment to see if I could get a grossly undersized, 16 bore ball to shoot, and it did fairly well using 2 .017" (8ounce denim) patches.
Some of the patches seemed in good shape, while others were cut and burned after firing with this light 82gr. 2f load. I increased the charge to 110gr. 2F and both of the patches were
incinerated, completely burnt up or almost so from the flames going past, due to the increased pressure of the load. Too much for the loose combination to contain. The WW ball, with no
obturation, relied upon the patch only, for maintaining it's integrity. It failed. That combo only adds up to .696". The groove diameter in this rifle is .714". I found it quite interesting that it shot
as well as it did, at 50yards - about 1 3/4" with the low shot. The shot far right was the first shot fired and a horrid flinch.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcOChGn%2FP1012731.jpg&hash=9fb000fb542117e317276a0f62b83c9c515dd6b2) (http://ibb.co/dYdNGn)
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I need to go to BC for lessons in shooting and catching fish and such.
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Ditto !!
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Can't complain about those targets.
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This .69 GRRW barrel has been very accurate since day 1, in 1986, even though it was poorly reamed.
I found out early on in 1st couple trips out to the range, that I had to use excessively thick patches to get it to shoot well.
A standard .022" denim patch would burn with over about 96gr. 2F. I just lucked out to have some 12 ounce .030" denim with me
the second day of testing. I was using .682" balls, only .008" under bore size, yet even though the rifling was only .012" deep, I had
to go to the much thicker denim.
The nice thing about this barrel, is that it shoots the same with grease, oil or water based lubes. None of my other guns has
ever done that. I have always had to increase the powder charge to get oil or grease lubed loads to shoot the same and to the
same point of impact, even though the velocity was quite a bit higher with those loads.
I was using the 12 ounce with both .682" pure lead as well as the .675" pure and .677" WW balls & it shot fine. I ran out and a friend
gave me some 14 ounce that I measure at .034". This also shoots well with the smaller 15 bore balls, but is a bit tight with the .682".
You have to want it to go in. Once in the bore, they go down nicely.
I have some much less compressible (than denim) canvas that is 10oz. .022" and it seems to shoot OK with the heavier loads and .682" balls, as it should.
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m1garandman,
You may want to try my homemade target for shooting. It is a day-glo piece of poster paper, with a 12" black construction paper triangle taped on.
Over open sights it really allows for fine aiming. The point of the triangle perches on the top of the front sight. In other words, six-o'clock hold on the triangle, and sight in to hit at the point of the triangle. In the photo below, the sights needed adjusting to hit a little higher.
For a peep sight I use the same poster paper, but make a 1" wide black cross on the paper. Through peep sights it gives the appearance of a crosshair behind the front bead. Before I came up with that, shooting good groups and analyzing loads was barely possible.
Here is a photo for you. Ignore the group please, I was trying out loads.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jf1yeH/IMG_5942.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dPeUmx)
I use an old political sign frame to hold the target.
I hope this proves useful to you and others.
God Bless, Marc
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Going to have to try that design - thanks Marc. I copied that to my 'targets' folder.
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M1, your accuracy seems to be typical to me for early testing. I test all my offhand guns pretty extensively, and have a few that I can count on to shoot less than 3" 10shot groups at 100yds, but starting out testing I often see groups the size and shape of yours. I glue a scope base on with devcon and use a long eye relief pistol scope to eliminate sighting error. Try every patch/ball combination you have access to and try different brands and grades of powder too. I have a .40cal that will not shoot Goex worth spit, but with FFg Swiss, it is incredibly accurate. Groups down close to 2" when the wind aint blowing. I have seen very little reliable intuition for what will shoot. In my opinion, you wont know if you don't try it. Something else I've seen is different patch cloths of the same thickness don't always shoot the same. Don't be afraid to polish your bores too. Lapping or just JB or Iosso bore cleaner has never hurt any of the barrels I've shot, and often shows an improvement in accuracy and or fouling.
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Coroplast and political posters were mentioned as targets.
I collect these after an election, and have found that I can always make a good shot on the posters of a politician I really dislike.
Out at the range, I use the coroplast as a backer to my sight in targets, the ones with 5 bulls on it.
Craigo
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Careful with that. A guy from our gun club was shooting at a politcal poster on our range, and ended up having a long heart to heart with an FBI agent. It can be considered a threat.
Hungry Horse
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OK guys straying too close to the political fence. Someone will cross it for sure and we don't want that here.
Dennis
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I assume that you are shooting at the Ft. Bliss Rod and Gun Club. The Rio Grand Muzzleloaders shoot there twice a month. There are quite a few very knowledgeable and good shooters there. I believe they have fliers posted at the club. It may be worth your while to check them out.
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I assume that you are shooting at the Ft. Bliss Rod and Gun Club. The Rio Grand Muzzleloaders shoot there twice a month. There are quite a few very knowledgeable and good shooters there. I believe they have fliers posted at the club. It may be worth your while to check them out.
That would be fantastic if I did. I'm in hill country at Ft hood, which is most of a days drive away. I did meet a fellow on this forum who is from my area and we plan to start shooting together shortly.
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I have had decent success with coconut oil for patch lube. The patches I used yesterday were .020 pillow ticking soaked in coconut oil with a .490 ball in my .50. My load was 80gr of Pyrodex RS and was minute of deer which is all I'm looking for in the cap gun.
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M1, sorry somehow I got the impression you were at Ft. Bliss.