AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Shop Made Tools => Topic started by: WadePatton on April 17, 2018, 06:19:42 PM
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I am no expert at this, but I'm beginning to think one doesn't have to be. I've just now gotten around to having some experiences using files that I've soaked.
Long story short, I'll never discard a file again without giving it at least one or two acidic baths.
I never got around to sending off files to a refurbishing service, but did recently find that an acid-bath can freshen up most files. I started with old, terrible files and they started looking good, so I soaked a bunch more. But having plenty of files I'd not really give an serious workouts to these files, but they all usually felt really fresh and sharp to my hands when cleaned from their bath.
I use household vinegar and let them go 2 nights minimum. Also this makes a great bunch of iron acetate "stain"-if you'd like to try such (but that's another topic).
What really surprised me were these two extremes. First was a "found on the ground" type bastard with serious scale and pitting (looked hopeless). Needing a good long file to fix an ax the other day I grabbed the first 12-incher I saw and started working the bevel. As the bevel was dirty and nicked up I didn't notice it right away, as the file was biting into the steel just fine, but something didn't feel right. I then flipped the ax and started on the other bevel and got the same "not proper" feedback. THEN I looked at the file as I knew I was into clean metal on the work.
The file was the pitted one. I was feeling the pits of course, but the remaining teeth were cutting the dog out of the steel. WOW. So that's a truck-file for sure. It'll be great for field/coarse work and was totally useless before.
Second file didn't feel right when I cleaned it from the soak. So I resoaked it. Still didn't feel right. Put it to metal (that same axe) and it won't bite-and it's the FIRST one I've gotten no renewed sharpness from.
It has a name on it. Naked eyes see only an "M". 4x microscope reveals the "REST OF THE STORY"--which is "India". So that one goes into the bin and I'll be careful not to purchase any similar again.
Vinegar, file (of good stock), 2-nights, scrub off the nastiness and lightly oil. See what you think. Cheers!
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I just sent a big load of files, about two dozen, (all USA made) to Boggs for repair. Been well pleased with their service in the past.
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Wade, I’ve heard that method for years, but never tried it. I have several “crash test dummies” available, so now it’s off to the shop and see what happens. I never throw away files...😉
Greg
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Wade, I’ve heard that method for years, but never tried it. I have several “crash test dummies” available, so now it’s off to the shop and see what happens. I never throw away files...😉
Greg
If I were married, I wouldn't get caught rinsing them off indoors.
I'm not, and the dogs don't care, so I do. But it's some funky stuff.
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If I were married, I wouldn't get caught rinsing them off indoors.
You guys are finding the the wrong women...
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Trappers use the same method to clean up rusted traps...
When I first did it (with traps) I thought they were nuts because vinegar will cause rust....
But it works like a charm.
I snagged a BIG box of old files at a sale. Like..50-80 or so. Sadly most are regular ole files and the same stitch. I was going to degrease and try the vinegar soak to clean them up.
Many are probably trash. Some will need resharpened professionally...but I've already used a couple and they are good.
Glad to hear the vinegar soak works!
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I've a new batch going with a big rattail in it. The rattail was so bad I took a pic before.
Rusty tools is what I started with. And with an ax you can see how far back temper is drawn by the shades of gray on the metal after you de-sludge it.
If I were married, I wouldn't get caught rinsing them off indoors.
You guys are finding the the wrong women...
I'm workin' on it. I figure a Tipi and a Cabin should lure some in... ;)
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What kind of vinegar? My wife buys a cleaning vinegar and we also have
some that can be used in salads.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
Just white regular vinegar.
I save the malt vinegar for me fish 'n' chips.
(It's not he same after doing files in it......) ;)
Found old shifting spanners (Adjustable wrenches) in the fields at times, also old fencing pliers, and even if frozen into a glob of rust, all come back to life after vinegar treatment, but may need a week or so to soak if Really bad.
Look poxy but they work.
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Once again, Evapo-Rust comes to the rescue. It will get rid of all the rust, leaving only clean metal; you rinse it in plain water and it don't stink; and it is re-useable until it's completely reacted, which is good because you'll use it on other projects.
PS...Wade, my brother and his wife lived in a tipi for almost a year while building their log cabin.
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Wade, the different shades of grey you see on old axes may be the two different metals used in their construction, i. e. the carbon steel bit forge welded into the wrought iron body. Most cutting tools were made this way before modern times. You can see it in old chisels, drawknives, plane irons, etc.,. This is how I like to make axes, with carbon steel bit sandwiched between wrought iron cheeks. You can get by with just a bit harder temper this way as the tough old wrought iron kind of protects the steel.
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What kind of vinegar? My wife buys a cleaning vinegar and we also have
some that can be used in salads.
Bob Roller
5% acidity is what I use Bob. White or colored doesn't bother me any. I re-use it (keep it capped mostly) until rusty metal no longer sends up bubbles. And the used stuff can be used to stain wood.
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Wade, the different shades of grey you see on old axes may be the two different metals used in their construction, i. e. the carbon steel bit forge welded into the wrought iron body. Most cutting tools were made this way before modern times. You can see it in old chisels, drawknives, plane irons, etc.,. This is how I like to make axes, with carbon steel bit sandwiched between wrought iron cheeks. You can get by with just a bit harder temper this way as the tough old wrought iron kind of protects the steel.
Are modern axes made this way? I figured it was industrial energy saving to treat only the bidness end of such a thick tool (relative to other cutting tools). I don't figure mine is that old. Are that old- any of 'em.
I hadn't seen the following video before just now--but it shows how I expect mine were made. I see homogeneous alloy, shaped and sharpened, then appears to be inductively heated and quenched. And that's the line I saw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUxg-CWsf5g
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Wade here is a pretty dramatic example of what I was refererring to where you can clearly see the definition between the wrought iron body and the steel cutting edge in this very old broadaxe. I didn’t know you could visually see the temper as you are referring to.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dEZUUH/49_A982_A4_C2_D7_4_F6_A_8586_71831_F1_AF4_BC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDyCic)
(https://preview.ibb.co/btNG9H/E0_DA1_FAA_79_EE_4709_AABF_952_C8_FE3_B0_F9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gAjk3c)
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This report A Frontier Blacksmith Shop 1796-18 is the bible for understanding axe construction. Not light reading.
Alot of expensive analysis of alot of artifacts/date. I have not found anything better. At one time we spent tax dollars/revenues on useful stuff!
http://parkscanadahistory.com/series/saah/blacksmithshop.pdf
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Ddoyle, thanks for the link, I will save it.
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Yeah it is a good 'un. I had been tracking an OEM printed version for some time and recently got word that an old Parks retired uncle of the wife's is suppose to have some copies in a box, If they materialize I'll post one to you cause your the guy who should have one. I have trouble getting all the learnin in a text off a screen.
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Also thanks for that link.
And also I do have some Japanese knives made of different layers of steel. Very keen edge, second only to my shaving razors.
Soaked a big rattail that was crusty, put some life back into it for sure. When I get pics made I'll add them. but my truck has to be fixed as it just went down this eve. Might take a minute.
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(https://preview.ibb.co/ca2TPH/95866_F4_A_481_E_45_C0_9976_DB38761_EC9_F2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cqTPyc)
Here is a bunch of files I just got back from Boggs Tool. We sent out about 27 pieces in all. Me and a couple others shipped them together to save postage. Worked out to about $3 a file including all the shipping.
The ones with red on the tang were ‘rejected’ which means they were damaged or rusted too bad to meet standards. They clean them anyway and only charge minimal amount. Even the rejects are better than the ones you can buy new now.
These were all USA made.
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...Here is a bunch of files I just got back from Boggs Tool. We sent out about 27 pieces in all. Me and a couple others shipped them together to save postage. Worked out to about $3 a file including all the shipping.
The ones with red on the tang were ‘rejected’ which means they were damaged or rusted too bad to meet standards. They clean them anyway and only charge minimal amount. Even the rejects are better than the ones you can buy new now.
These were all USA made.
Those look great. It's certainly the way to go for folks who have more money than files- and some free time for making their own mess. I will soon, but just having 3 per each to spend on commercial refurbs hasn't been an option for a while. I'm getting picky about what I soak now and hope this will help me get the longest lives out of all the Black Diamond USA files I can find.
The pitted files I did, no one would even think to send in for refurbishing. And they'll do rough work no problem. I'm getting to where I use certain files for rough work to keep the mileage down on my better cutters. I gotta work out my tang painting scheme--so I can look "pro". 8)
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Recently after reading about the vinegar I pickled about 8 and it seems to
work fairly well. I have some old Swiss Barret files I tried this on and they are usable
again along with some old IXL's George Killen gave me and he died back in 1977.
Bob Roller
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Wade , try toilet bowel cleaner. I have used it before with good results. TC
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Wade , try toilet bowel cleaner. I have used it before with good results. TC
I have no complaint about the cost and toxicity of Vinegar. Yes i have some other acids around, and could fool with them and might later. But I've got a new gallon of white vinegar, and it's not going into the pickle jars. Vinegar soak is now how I start the refurbishing of just about every neglected tool I refurbish.
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That reminds me I put some in to soak day before yesterday I need to check on.
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Wade....Thank you for the White vinegar tip... cleaned up several old Nickleson U.S.A. made files... works very well. Not a lot of spending coin here; old retired guy. Oh and I like them straight razors too ::)
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Not much could be easier to find, ready-made and inexpensive at nearly every vendor of groceries anywhere. 5% Acetic Acid -cleverly disguised as White Vinegar- that is. ;D
TBT here I've picked up another stash of Black Diamonds out of the rusty crud-stacks of the local antiques stores and have yet to dunk 'em. Actually used a tri-corner Simonds already that didn't really need much. But have other things pressing presently.
And I'll keep keeping my eye out for re-workable files from the Age of Domestic Industrial Cyanide. :P
Hoarders unite. :o
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I tried a couple files in vineager. I used cider vineager cause it was cheap. A 14” flat bastard and a 12” half round that were both pretty rough looking and rusty. Both cleaned up real nice. I took a piece of
1 1/2” pvc pipe with one end capped and hung it up by a wire. Put them in there Friday and took them out today (Monday) and rinsed and scrubbed them. They look real good. I set them in the sun and oiled them good when they got dry
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I bought a gallon of new white 5% vinegar yesterday for redoing files.
It seems to work and I have a number of them that need all the help
I can give them.This is done in he shop and not in the house and I was
amazed at the rubbish left after the first batch was done.One was a #8
cut Swiss made thin pillar file.This is a very fine cut and according to the
maker has 233 teeth per inch.
Bob Roller
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So is the plan of attack to soak in straight vinegar for a couple of days and then clean and oil?
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So is the plan of attack to soak in straight vinegar for a couple of days and then clean and oil?
That has worked for me. Seems that a couple of days is best to see where you're at. Any sort of pre-cleaning might help speed it up, but I think that just adds work. I use this for neglected tools too. Anything I want to de-rust that I can cover in vinegar is game. I've not "oversoaked" anything that I know of, but have "re-soaked" a few to get them cleaner.
The black crud that comes off is not unlike the crud that comes off old iron from years underwater. Kinda funky. And yes they'll flash rust pretty quickly if you don't get the oil back on or get them thoroughly dried quickly, but the flash rusting is nothing compared to what usually comes off.
What have you got to lose? Try some junkers.
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Wade,
I did Muriatic acid a few years back on some old files and rusty taps, It worked within seconds but, had to put in oil right away to prevent more rust.... Worked really fast!!!! And really Sharp!!!!
One thing I learned with Working with Muriatic acid.... Once the bubbles stop, then remove the metal... that means the oxidation has been removed. Any time in after that is eating in to the metal itself.
I have done an old 22 and an old Hawken barrel with a soak once, it was a good dip, however, it left a "greenish" tint to the metal. I didn't sand the 22 barrel deep enough to remove the "green" however, the Hawken barrel I worked over with emery cloth and cold blue, it turned out dark blue. Just looking at it, you would think it was factory "hot blue".
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I have been keeping up with this post. A while back my cousin mentioned refurbishing wood rasps and files, so I took some out and he soaked them in meuratic acid. They came back very sharp and looked like new. I couldn't believe that this made them usable again. I have noticed fish hooks that I have purchased before said " they were chemically sharpened". So anyone interested might try this.
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Okay, I bit the bullet and tried 10 files in the vinegar treatment, they soaked for a little over two days, and were turned over twice. When I removed them mid morning I scrubbed them with a steel brush, there was loads of "stuff" that remained in the vinegar. I then flushed them at an outdoor spicket and immediately dried them with shop towels and then my heat gun, and sprayed them with WD-40. I could see that flash rust beginning to form as I put the heat gun to them.
I tested one 8" file this afternoon and it cut better than it had been. Which is not bad at all as the files were, in my mind, goners and had been sitting in the back of my file drawer for ages.
Wade; it works. Thanks man.
dave
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I bought a gallon of new white 5% vinegar yesterday for redoing files.
It seems to work ...This is a very fine cut and according to the
maker has 233 teeth per inch.
Bob Roller
Bob I'm especially happy to have shared something new with a fellow who has seen so much (and has helped me/others with his vast knowledge). And certainly it's the odd or expensive (or just "good old hard" files) that make this such a good one.
Okay, I bit the bullet and tried 10 files in the vinegar treatment... not bad at all as the files were, in my mind, goners and had been sitting in the back of my file drawer for ages.
Wade; it works. Thanks man.
dave
Dave/all, It's great to "give back" a little. So many various "new" and otherwise things in our constant stream of info overload these days, that I'm happy to have struck on something that a few of us can really put to the test, particularly given the removal of cyanide from steel processing.
Sure, with regard to some comments on other chemical processing and processing services: These have been around for some time-but one may have to either source the "new" chemical and learn how to use it safely. Or he'll have to package and post and pay and wait for any remote service (or deliver/retrieve if local). With the Acetic Acid treatment there is: No packing, no shipping, nothing you can't make pickles with, not much waiting, and you can watch the bubbles if your "vat" permits it (can see the foam at the very least). Can be a touch messy, but most serious file-users can deal with it. ;)
Also that vinegar has been around some great time and has a history of being home-made. Not to fail to mention that Iron Acetate is used by some to stain their wooden bits and stocks. And one who refurbs his files this way shall have no shortage of Iron Acetate.
I tend to pour the clear liquid off, dump the sludge and reuse the clear part, adding fresh vinegar as necessary. I know this dilutes the acidity, but that hasn't been an issue so far and of course once can re-soak if necessary.
I've not fooled with iron acetate and wood for a while, but ain't above it... 8)
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I finally got around to trying it on my chest of old files.
I bought 3 gallons of vinegar and put them all in a 5 gallon bucket. Should have bought 4 gallons...lol.
I took a batch out after 3 days and the difference is incredible. I still have a lot of them in there that were a little worse off but seem to be cleaning up nicely.
Surprisingly, they aren't all the same stitch like I thought. Have a pretty nice variety. 2 knife style files for screw heads...a bunch of small rounds and triangles. Even found a real nice riffler.
Seems junk tools weren't common or maybe not even on the market when this guy collected his files. All good old Nicholson's, some Simmonds, some American made ones I've never heard of...a couple marked "Austria" which seem like they are quality as well. A few dollars in the chest full of files and another few bucks in vinegar and I have plenty of usable files.
They are coming out much sharper than new Nicholsons.
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Giving new life to old tools is handy and helps getter dunn.
Kinda hard to grasp the transformation until you do it. Makes the junk bins (at the junk store, as well as our own) more interesting for sure. Glad I could help spread this practical knowhow. 8)
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I was/am wondering,would this rust remover work on a rusted barrel or lock!!
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I don’t see why not. I’ve done a couple batches of files so far, and it’s an absolute miracle. I’ve cleaned up some rusty pliers and a vintage pair of Wiss tin snips that were so rusty they wouldn’t move...after a week or so in vinegar they came out nearly perfect. A little paint on the handles, and they’re good to go for another 50 years. I have several more old tools soaking right now...
Greg
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I was/am wondering,would this rust remover work on a rusted barrel or lock!!
It's my experience that whatever melts away in the process was oxidized beyond repair/recognition anyway. I've never (yet) put anything in the vinegar and later regretted it.
Acetic acid is my go to for anything rusty, period. I found a hammer that'd been lost under as house where water had been standing long enough to cause black mold. Rusty as heck. Two or three days in the soak and now a have a gray hammer with some rough spots, but no nasty rust-and I used it today or yesterday. It's an Estwing.
If something is rusted up, you ain't going to hurt it with vinegar, of that I'm about certain. You'll likely help it. And it beats the doggie doo out of trying to clean rust up with a wire wheel or higher-tech buffing apparatus.
There may be better easier chemical concoctions, but there are none cheaper or lower toxicity.
Also, I'm not affiliated with Big Vinegar and I paid regular money for my supply. :P ;D
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Thread Resurrection.
One of my CV19 keep busy projects for the moment is resurrecting old files and this thread. ;)
How many treatments can a file undergo before becoming useless for filing, but good knife-making scrap?
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Thread Resurrection.
One of my CV19 keep busy projects for the moment is resurrecting old files and this thread. ;)
How many treatments can a file undergo before becoming useless for filing, but good knife-making scrap?
This I do not know yet. I've not been doing a lot of filing lately. I did note that I was using the first ever file I tried this treatment on a few days ago. It is notable because it is was deeply pitted in a few places, and the voids of the pits are felt, but the re-furbed teeth are yet cutting like a fresh file.
I should mark them--and I might when I run any a second time. Good question.
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Just to simplify things. All acids will remove rust. Some in seconds and then eat the steel and some in days. Muriatic acid (i.e. hydrochloric acid), acetic acid, citric acid, oxalic acid and so forth. The speed depends upon the dilution and the temperature. This is a chemical reaction and that speeds up with temperature.
There is no correct choice but one should think of time and supervision. If you are in a hurry then go strong and short but you have some risk of it going too far and working on the steel. I recommend weak and slow then you can supervise it's progress. I can get acetic acid (vinegar) from 5% to 14% in the supermarket. Also citric acid crystals and oxalic acid crystals cheaply there too. 5% vinegar does the trick quite adequately. I choose oxalic acid which will not take off any steel at all no matter how long you forget and leave it in there plus other minor reasons but is toxic and attractive to pets. Especially dogs (and you if you keep drinking it....) Citric acid leaves it cleaner and I have been known to put parts de rusted with oxalic into citric for a bit to clean them up.
So 5% vinegar is quite adequate and cheap so is the simplest solution. With muriatic(hydrochloric) acid there is a hazard of it being able to become dangerously (to you) strong. Oxalic has a poisoning risk by ingestion but citric is safe and cheap and cleaner than acetic so is a second simple choice.
BTW it would do no harm to neutralise the remaining acid when the steel is removed from de rusting by both washing it with running water and sitting in a weal sodium bicarbonate/baking soda solution for a few minutes before drying with heat and oiling.
Apologies for the lecture mode......
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Despite my references to that first, rusty and pitted file, I have revived files that were not rusty. That's my main focus of this thread, making old-tired files (not necessarily rusty ones) work better-to extend their functional life as files (of course this bunch (or their pals) make/s tools from them after they've given up the ghost for removing metal.)
I will be neutralizing them hereafter as I've noticed a touch more after-rust than I care for, yet they still cut better.
Yulzari (or anyone else fluent in acid/metal reactions): Could we not weaken other acids to a comparable level as the 5% acetic or would that not be so simple? I have some drain-clearing acids that I have no use for as I much prefer lye for that job.
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I like lecture mode yulzari, thanks.
I want to thank all who contributed to this thread, as it has been very useful to me. I collected up all the file and rasps I could find that were quite neglected and gave them a 5% vinegar bath about a month ago. Results were shockingly good. Some revealed minor areas of deep pitting though.
Great question rmnc3r. Sorry now that I pitched some totally rusted files about two years ago that might have been rehab candidates or at least usable for knives.
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If you need to sharpen a rasp,do you have a belt sander?? ,turn it on it and carefully,lightly place the rasp on the moving belt,if the rasp has a rounded face rotate the rasp with very light pressure,this will sharpen the points on the teeth.Works great.
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Despite my references to that first, rusty and pitted file, I have revived files that were not rusty. That's my main focus of this thread, making old-tired files (not necessarily rusty ones) work better-to extend their functional life as files (of course this bunch (or their pals) make/s tools from them after they've given up the ghost for removing metal.)
I will be neutralizing them hereafter as I've noticed a touch more after-rust than I care for, yet they still cut better.
Yulzari (or anyone else fluent in acid/metal reactions): Could we not weaken other acids to a comparable level as the 5% acetic or would that not be so simple? I have some drain-clearing acids that I have no use for as I much prefer lye for that job.
In principle yes but I can't answer for what is a suitable level of dilution. Start very weak and see how it goes then change it based upon what you see. I am guessing your acid is hydrochloric or sulphuric so read the instructions to see what safety advice they give. Until you have a safe level eye protection is in order. You can grow/graft new skin but not eyes.
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There is a video on YouTube about doing files in sulfuric acid ( drain cleaner) .
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I use muriatic acid to kind of renew files. You have to keep an eye on them time wise. I don't believe the acid can sharpen them but merely etches them and cleans all the $#@* off of them. They all seem to cut better after this treatment at least for a while. JZ
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And back to vinegar. I think I'll just keep using 5% acetic acid because works so well, and poses no extra hazards to anyone or anything. Thanks just the same for the info.