AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Iktomi on May 09, 2018, 07:24:24 PM
-
I recently worked over my GPR .54 w/PRB barrel. Stripped the browning off and did a scrubbed back oxpho blue finish on the barrel and furniture. I have not shot the rifle much the last couple years, took it to the range Sunday afternoon to re-zero after removing and then reinstalling sights during the refinishing. I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, but shooting this from the bench just walloped the $#*! out of me. So much so that after 30 rounds or so I was noticeably flinching. It hurt, and I wasn't shooting monster loads either, just my two pet loads for this rifle, 85 of 3F and 105 of 2F. My shoulder has significant bruising, and I had plans to go shoot again this Friday but I'm not sure my shoulder is up to it. I have to attribute this to the narrow, deep curved and pointy butt on this and other Hawken-type rifles. Never really bothered me in the past, but I sure am not liking that butt design now. Miserable design IMO.
-
Rick, you’re not alone. I’ve heard and tried the upper arm hold and everything else and have never found a narrow, deeply curved buttplate comfortable with moderate recoil.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/aE5ctwJ.jpg)
-
The only variable that was different with this session was the bench shooting. This was my first trip to this range in a long long time. They do *not* allow offhand on the rifle range, all shooting MUST be from the bench, and they weren't particularly well fitting benches for me. I kinda had to crawl forward over the table to get set up. I'm more accustomed to shooting in a more natural fashion....offhand, sitting, shooting sticks or resting up against a tree or the like. I was sort of forced in to using this range though, for years I would shoot at a friend's rural property north of town. Great place, safe and with distances up to 450 yards. However, there is a winery across the road, and new owners have a new tasting room and host a bunch of events for the whine and cheeserat crowd. They complained, even though our shooting is perfectly legal and safe, and they basically threatened to make life miserable for my friend if we didn't stop.
-
I've shot several hundred rounds through my old GPR with the same results. Then an old timer told me I should be shooting with the butt plate on the bicep, not the shoulder. All I can say is it worked for me. The hardest part was training myself to place it in the right spot every time.
Looking at your photo I was placing my butt plate 3 to 4 inches to the right of your location right on the bicep. Another thing for off the bench, or X sticks is I always place at least a finger, or a 2 finger hold right at the forward support position to keep barrel rise to the minimum. And help insure the recoil is straight back.
I was a doubter but tried it anyway. Was glad I did. Try it yourself and see. It can't hurt anything.
I'd also drop the powder charge until the problem is worked out. 85 grains of 3f is a snappy load and 105 grains of 2f can hurt, I know from experience.
-
I've shot several hundred rounds through my old GPR with the same results. Then an old timer told me I should be shooting with the butt plate on the bicep, not the shoulder. All I can say is it worked for me. The hardest part was training myself to place it in the right spot every time.
Looking at your photo I was placing my butt plate 3 to 4 inches to the right of your location right on the bicep. Another thing for off the bench, or X sticks is I always place at least a finger, or a 2 finger hold right at the forward support position to keep barrel rise to the minimum. And help insure the recoil is straight back.
I was a doubter but tried it anyway. Was glad I did. Try it yourself and see. It can't hurt anything.
I'd also drop the powder charge until the problem is worked out. 85 grains of 3f is a snappy load and 105 grains of 2f can hurt, I know from experience.
That'll take some getting used to but I'll give it a try. Rather reluctant to drop charge, these are both very accurate, they shoot better than anything else I've worked up in this rifle and they are intended for elk which is my primary use for this gun. Guess I'll have to work up a lighter plinking load for the time being. I've shot these loads all day long offhand and on sticks etc and didn't have this problem. Heck, I have an 8 1/2 lb. 338. Win mag that doesn't smack me around like this did the other day :o
Thanks for the tips!
-
The upper arm hold may feel odd at first and does take some getting used to. The first time I tried it I thought it would never work for me but after a couple of range sessions it was second nature.
-
Ouch,ain't made hamburger out of my shoulder like that in a long,long time and that was with some modern tyranasauraus rifles.Try the different hold,no fun coming home from the range like that.You also don't want that flinch your already talking about setting in to deep along with that butt plate.
-
I hold all my heavy hitters in-between the bicep and shoulder and it seems to help me. Your mileage may vary.
-
Get a PAST recoil pad.....and solve the problem!! :o
-
Bench or Prone shooting are the worst for recoil.
To reduce it at the bench I made a drag bag many many moons ago before special holding fixtures and PAST padding and alla that stuff. That was the most useful bag of shot I ever owned. (I used to shoot Loudus MagnaBoomers mostly.)
BUT then I thought about how recoil is rarely an issue standing up--so I make my shooting position (don't have fixed setup presently) for testing as TALL as I can make it to give me the stability and support of a bench and being seated, but to keep from hunkering down all behind the gun trapping it against all the upper body mass. With the upper body more vertical, it can sway with the recoil much easier.
Over-explained? Anyhoo, that's what works for me, ergonomic dynamicals. Try it sometime. ;)
-
Bench or Prone shooting are the worst for recoil.
To reduce it at the bench I made a drag bag many many moons ago before special holding fixtures and PAST padding and alla that stuff. That was the most useful bag of shot I ever owned. (I used to shoot Loudus MagnaBoomers mostly.)
BUT then I thought about how recoil is rarely an issue standing up--so I make my shooting position (don't have fixed setup presently) for testing as TALL as I can make it to give me the stability and support of a bench and being seated, but to keep from hunkering down all behind the gun trapping it against all the upper body mass. With the upper body more vertical, it can sway with the recoil much easier.
Over-explained? Anyhoo, that's what works for me, ergonomic dynamicals. Try it sometime. ;)
I agree that offhand is much more tolerable for the reasons you mentioned. The fact the bench was ill-fitting for me only made things worse.If I use those benches again I'll be better equipped to get myself more vertical behind the rifle. That should help quite a bit. Did some trials with shouldering the rifle a few minutes ago. Moving it out just inside my bicep doesn't feel as odd as I thought it would, but d@#!, my shoulder is a wee sore, don't think I'll shoot Friday :P
-
This was my first trip to this range in a long long time. They do *not* allow offhand on the rifle range, all shooting MUST be from the bench, and they weren't particularly well fitting benches for me. I kinda had to crawl forward over the table to get set up. I'm more accustomed to shooting in a more natural fashion....offhand, sitting, shooting sticks or resting up against a tree or the like.
Could you make a set of sticks from which to shoot off the bench? Technically you'd still be shooting from the bench, but you could make them high enough so you could sit up straight... :P
I have a different but similar problem. The public range closest to me installed these big metal boxes with some sort of insulation in front of the benches. Apparently some folks from California decided to move to the Blue Ridge right next to a game land and shooting range, and were appalled to discover that we shoot guns around here. They complained to the State loudly and long enough that the authorities installed these monstrosities in an effort to dampen the noise. Personally, I think they make the noise worse, and require a lot of contortion to shoot through. Since the pistol stalls are right on the same range I just shoot offhand over there and no one has objected yet, though.
-
This was my first trip to this range in a long long time. They do *not* allow offhand on the rifle range, all shooting MUST be from the bench, and they weren't particularly well fitting benches for me. I kinda had to crawl forward over the table to get set up. I'm more accustomed to shooting in a more natural fashion....offhand, sitting, shooting sticks or resting up against a tree or the like.
Could you make a set of sticks from which to shoot off the bench? Technically you'd still be shooting from the bench, but you could make them high enough so you could sit up straight... :P
I have a different but similar problem. The public range closest to me installed these big metal boxes with some sort of insulation in front of the benches. Apparently some folks from California decided to move to the Blue Ridge right next to a game land and shooting range, and were appalled to discover that we shoot guns around here. They complained to the State loudly and long enough that the authorities installed these monstrosities in an effort to dampen the noise. Personally, I think they make the noise worse, and require a lot of contortion to shoot through. Since the pistol stalls are right on the same range I just shoot offhand over there and no one has objected yet, though.
I was just out back down in the creek scouting out some sticks to make a shorty set for the bench ;)
ETA: I can shoot offhand on the pistol range, but it is only 25 yards.
-
I've shot several hundred rounds through my old GPR with the same results. Then an old timer told me I should be shooting with the butt plate on the bicep, not the shoulder. All I can say is it worked for me. The hardest part was training myself to place it in the right spot every time.
Looking at your photo I was placing my butt plate 3 to 4 inches to the right of your location right on the bicep. Another thing for off the bench, or X sticks is I always place at least a finger, or a 2 finger hold right at the forward support position to keep barrel rise to the minimum. And help insure the recoil is straight back.
I was a doubter but tried it anyway. Was glad I did. Try it yourself and see. It can't hurt anything.
I'd also drop the powder charge until the problem is worked out. 85 grains of 3f is a snappy load and 105 grains of 2f can hurt, I know from experience.
That'll take some getting used to but I'll give it a try. Rather reluctant to drop charge, these are both very accurate, they shoot better than anything else I've worked up in this rifle and they are intended for elk which is my primary use for this gun. Guess I'll have to work up a lighter plinking load for the time being. I've shot these loads all day long offhand and on sticks etc and didn't have this problem. Heck, I have an 8 1/2 lb. 338. Win mag that doesn't smack me around like this did the other day :o
Thanks for the tips!
Are you shooting round balls, or conicals?
During the 70's and 80's, I shot literally thousands of roundball loads (enough to go through 20-25 lbs. of powder per year), I shot that rifle at least several times a week, and used it for competition, and hunting throughout the year.
My .54 GPR loved 90 grs. of Goex 2F behind a patched .530 round ball, and was my "go to" gun for EVERYTHING (elk, caribou, deer, coyotes, bear, and antelope).
20+ years of shooting a Lyman GPR, and I never once noticed any recoil. :o
When I lived in Alaska, I owned, both, a .338 WM and a .375 HH, now those things had some recoil but we don't talk about those types of guns here.
-
Are you shooting round balls, or conicals?
During the 70's and 80's, I shot literally thousands of roundball loads (enough to go through 20-25 lbs. of powder per year), I shot that rifle at least several times a week, and used it for competition, and hunting throughout the year.
My .54 GPR loved 90 grs. of Goex 2F behind a patched .530 round ball, and was my "go to" gun for EVERYTHING (elk, caribou, deer, coyotes, bear, and antelope).
20+ years of shooting a Lyman GPR, and I never once noticed any recoil. :o
When I lived in Alaska, I owned, both, a .338 WM and a .375 HH, now those things had some recoil but we don't talk about those types of guns here.
Shooting PRB. I have at least 1500 shots through this rifle over the last several years, and I';ve never had a problem. I put it down to the screwed up position I was forced to use the other day coupled with that narrow, curved and pointy buttplate. I've never had my shoulder bruised up by any firearm until now and a .54 round ball rifle is modest in recoil compared to a couple of the modern rifles I own and shoot.
-
Are you shooting round balls, or conicals?
During the 70's and 80's, I shot literally thousands of roundball loads (enough to go through 20-25 lbs. of powder per year), I shot that rifle at least several times a week, and used it for competition, and hunting throughout the year.
My .54 GPR loved 90 grs. of Goex 2F behind a patched .530 round ball, and was my "go to" gun for EVERYTHING (elk, caribou, deer, coyotes, bear, and antelope).
20+ years of shooting a Lyman GPR, and I never once noticed any recoil. :o
When I lived in Alaska, I owned, both, a .338 WM and a .375 HH, now those things had some recoil but we don't talk about those types of guns here.
Shooting PRB. I have at least 1500 shots through this rifle over the last several years, and I';ve never had a problem. I put it down to the screwed up position I was forced to use the other day coupled with that narrow, curved and pointy buttplate. I've never had my shoulder bruised up by any firearm until now and a .54 round ball rifle is modest in recoil compared to a couple of the modern rifles I own and shoot.
Are you allowed to bring your own rest, or sand bags, to use on their bench?
-
I shoot all of the deeply curved style with the buttplate held between the shoulder and bicep. Never on the shoulder and never on the bicep. Between. The felt recoil is minimal and I have never experienced bruising even with 120 grain loads.
dave
-
Are you allowed to bring your own rest, or sand bags, to use on their bench?
Yeah, I am. I wasn't aware of the procedures at this range and wasn't well prepared. I was using my small range box as a rest but it wasn't near tall enough. I'll be better situated next time I go out there.
-
I had a similar problem with Lyman’s version of the Hawkens, still have a tattoo from that rifle. I am not normally recoil sensitive but that little but plate was a problem. Moved it off the shoulder no more problem, that rifle did find a new home even though accuracy was good.
-
One thing you can do is bring a soft knee pad like you use for gardening. Kneel down behind the shooting bench. This allows you to maintain an upright shooting posture close to the same position as standing and allows your body to recoil back with the shot. You can also buy a strap on recoil pad. I use one for black powder cartridge. Launching 535 grain lead bullets all day from a 45-70 can get tiring to the shoulder even with a heavy rifle. The pad changes your LOP a little but is worth it for saving wear and tear on the shoulder.
-
I had a similar problem with Lyman’s version of the Hawkens, still have a tattoo from that rifle. I am not normally recoil sensitive but that little but plate was a problem. Moved it off the shoulder no more problem, that rifle did find a new home even though accuracy was good.
Yeah, my GPR is quite accurate, no complaints there.
-
For a number of years I shot crescent butt plate rifles but NEVER from prone
and always between the shoulder and bicep.There is a reason the Brits made shotgun
style rifle stocks and it's called COMMON SENSE.Easy to manage even with heavy loads and
way better looking. The last crescent butt plate gun I made was a breech loader made to
look like a Carlos Gove which was styled like a muzzle loader.40-90-420 Ballard.
Bob Roller
-
There is a reason the Brits made shotgun
style rifle stocks and it's called COMMON SENSE.Easy to manage even with heavy loads and
way better looking.
Bob Roller
Spot-on, old chap.
-
I love 'em...and wouldn't trade for a blue-nosed mule!!
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8294/29163627182_b763a35665.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Lr6djj)Muzzle Loading Rifles (https://flic.kr/p/Lr6djj) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
-
For a number of years I shot crescent butt plate rifles but NEVER from prone
and always between the shoulder and bicep.There is a reason the Brits made shotgun
style rifle stocks and it's called COMMON SENSE.Easy to manage even with heavy loads and
way better looking. The last crescent butt plate gun I made was a breech loader made to
look like a Carlos Gove which was styled like a muzzle loader.40-90-420 Ballard.
Bob Roller
It's my limited understanding that "Hawken" type-rifles were an American evolution, (or devolution ;) ) of European/English sporters? I want a larger bore flinter for elk, so I'm going with something that has a more sensible buttplate. Don't get me wrong, I like this GPR that I currently have, it's a fine shooter and I've managed to kill a few critters with it.
-
I've recently had the same experience shooting my "Hawken" at the local range. Those narrow, curved buttplates concentrate the recoil in a very small area, while the wide ones on other guns tend to spread it over a larger area of the shoulder. At the afore-mentioned range session, that plains rifle beat me up pretty good, and I don't bruise easily. I much prefer my firelock, for that and the usual aesthetic reasons.
-
I love 'em...and wouldn't trade for a blue-nosed mule!!
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8294/29163627182_b763a35665.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Lr6djj)Muzzle Loading Rifles (https://flic.kr/p/Lr6djj) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
Neither of these have the deep crescent buttplate so would be
much more pleasanat to shoot.I am a bit surprised that so many
seen to think the rifle must be fired from the shoulder with such
a sharp top cap as the deep crescents have.
Bob Roller
-
Took my Hawken to a chunk match many years ago and learned very quickly that crescent butt plates and chunk, or bench, shooting don't mix well. Have used shotgun type butts plates ever since.
Mark
-
This might sound simplistic, but try folding up a bath towel several times and placing it between your shoulder and the buttplate when shooting. It works with heavy-kicking shotguns shooting slugs and sabots.
-
My apologies,I seemed to have accidentally walked into the ladies room ;D
-
Arthritis in shoulder. :-[ . I am building a "Hawken" with a flattish BPCR buttplate. :o Still A Hawken ? ? 8)
Anyway.... Hawken furniture and stock design. ;D
-
An oversized slip on butt pad pops on and off easily .
-
My apologies,I seemed to have accidentally walked into the ladies room ;D
I can assure you this isn't the case :)
-
Just funnin with everybody ;)
-
Arthritis in shoulder. :-[ . I am building a "Hawken" with a flattish BPCR buttplate. :o Still A Hawken ? ? 8)
Anyway.... Hawken furniture and stock design. ;D
Some time ago I posted about an old friend who built a Hawken copy using the Robideaux drawings
and copied it to fine dimensions.He shot it and called me and said my muzzle crowning was a bad
job and all he could get was a 3 leaf clover group at a measured 150 yards.It was an 1 and 1/8"
Douglas barrel. His father shot it and said the crescent butt plate was an abomination and had his
son,Sid Estep make one with a shotgun butt stock and it looked great and was easier to shoot and
the accuracy ws equal. Sid made locks for a while and they were good ones but he didn't have name
recognition and decided to quit lock making and never made another one.This was over 40 years ago.
Bob Roller
-
(https://i.imgur.com/aE5ctwJ.jpg)
That's not a bruise, this is a bruise....
(https://preview.ibb.co/dpWPMJ/000_0030_cropsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eN7ygJ)
-
That's not a bruise, this is a bruise....
(https://preview.ibb.co/dpWPMJ/000_0030_cropsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eN7ygJ)
Mine is indeed a bruise. Yours is a bigger bruise. How'd that happen?
-
Just funnin with everybody ;)
My little English lady would like you to shoot her, Joe.
The wide flat butt plate usually leaves no marks - just a slight inner ache in the chest bones.
Naaaa - just kidding - actually it's a easy shooting gun, unless you want to shoot past 100yards, then she speaks as below.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cGrVBJ/cid_60_C1_E34_C_7_AC8_4_D74_9_E25_C4_D1204_C0_E3_Alocal_zpse9583bea.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kr6K5d)
-
That's not a bruise, this is a bruise....
(https://preview.ibb.co/dpWPMJ/000_0030_cropsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eN7ygJ)
Mine is indeed a bruise. Yours is a bigger bruise. How'd that happen?
I've seen a lot of marks on my boys after a riot-squad session on multiple called targets shot from behind a barricade. As they move around the edge of the barricade, the butt
moves further and further out their arm while shooting buck shot loads. The result is exactly what this photo shows- usually more yellow & browns included- kinda like colour case hardening of the arm - :o ;D. That looks REALLY tender.
-
That kind of wound only hurts til the pain goes away.
-
Just funnin with everybody ;)
My little English lady would like you to shoot her, Joe.
The wide flat butt plate usually leaves no marks - just a slight inner ache in the chest bones.
Naaaa - just kidding - actually it's a easy shooting gun, unless you want to shoot past 100yards, then she speaks as below.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cGrVBJ/cid_60_C1_E34_C_7_AC8_4_D74_9_E25_C4_D1204_C0_E3_Alocal_zpse9583bea.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kr6K5d)
I'm not scared but I bet your little lady there might not act so lady like shooting those hot loads off a bench,bet she speaks loud and clear ;)
-
Getting a little reckless boys. Whats wrong with a English style rifle or a Lancaster style to help absorbe some of the recoil. Had a couple Hawken,s many years ago and learned my lesson the hard way.
-
I'm with you Little Joe. I've shot several rifles with different buttplates and drop and learned my lesson. It's the Lancaster type stock for me. This design really minimizes recoil for me.
-
Since I don't care for heavy kicking guns. I decided to be a better hunter an get as close as possible. Before I shoot. An Joe I'm still laughing...! Oldtravler
-
That kind of wound only hurts til the pain goes away.
That's a cousin of the axiom: "All bleeding eventually stops." :)
-
I have had a few Hawkens. Flavored from .45 to .58. Have shot all of them off cross ticks as well as bench. Only shot them prone on the rifle frolic. Loads as high as135g 2f on the .58. Never have come home with any kind of trauma to my bicep. By the way I'm not a big guy
(https://preview.ibb.co/hfJyOy/P1010020_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kdm7GJ)
-
I have had a few Hawkens. Flavored from .45 to .58. Have shot all of them off cross ticks as well as bench. Only shot them prone on the rifle frolic. Loads as high as135g 2f on the .58. Never have come home with any kind of trauma to my bicep. By the way I'm not a big guy
(https://preview.ibb.co/hfJyOy/P1010020_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kdm7GJ)
This is the first and only time this ever happened, and I've shot this gun quite a bit.
-
Man, this thread is startin’ to look like the slow learners department. I had a light Navy Arms shotgun years ago that beat my cheek black, and blue, at a BP trap shoot, once. The key word here is “ONCE”. I sold it the next day, to a guy who’s physiology allowed him to shoot it without getting marked up.
Hungry Horse
-
There has to be something wrong with the way you are mounting the rifle. My Hawken rifle is a .62 cal. with the pointy Bridger butt plate. I shoot balls @ 350 gr. over 127 gr. of FFg GOEX all day long, and don't even get a yellow blush. I did have the unhappy occasion to shoot prone over a chunk with such a rifle in 1975, but have never done it since...that was brutal. But offhand, no problem.
Bench shooting: I only fire enough shots off a bench to test for group size and adjust sights to centre. After that, I sight in offhand.
Alacran: nice rifles.
-
There has to be something wrong with the way you are mounting the rifle. My Hawken rifle is a .62 cal. with the pointy Bridger butt plate. I shoot balls @ 350 gr. over 127 gr. of FFg GOEX all day long, and don't even get a yellow blush. I did have the unhappy occasion to shoot prone over a chunk with such a rifle in 1975, but have never done it since...that was brutal. But offhand, no problem.
Bench shooting: I only fire enough shots off a bench to test for group size and adjust sights to centre. After that, I sight in offhand.
Alacran: nice rifles.
The issue was the gawdawful benches at this particular range. Very low table and seats too far back. All poured concrete and non adjustable. As I noted earlier, I had not been to this range in many years, and l was not well set up for bench shooting as I did not know that offhand rifle shooting was no longer allowed on the rifle range. I had my cross sticks for both standing and sitting which I was planning on using, but no go there so I had to improvise a rest that wasn't tall enough, coupled with the distance between the seat and the bench I had to lean waaaayyyy forward to shoot. Very awkward. They allow offhand shooting with BP rifles on the pistol range, but the yardage is only 25 yards.
-
Man, this thread is startin’ to look like the slow learners department. I had a light Navy Arms shotgun years ago that beat my cheek black, and blue, at a BP trap shoot, once. The key word here is “ONCE”. I sold it the next day, to a guy who’s physiology allowed him to shoot it without getting marked up.
Hungry Horse
If I kept doing this repeatedly I might be a slow learner, but I haven't, and I'm not :)
-
I got careless once working up loads for my .54 Haines for an upcoming Elk Hunt. Didn't go as I didn't get drawn. But I was shooting off cross sticks controlling the forestock with a couple of fingers. I had worked up to 110 grains of 2fg with no problems. Then I neglected to control that forend with my fingers. At the shot the muzzle came up and the butt slammed into my shoulder. My cheek hurt immediately and my shoulder stung. I shot 4 more times, each one hurting worse. A few hours later the cheek was swollen and the shoulder was bruised.
I still hunt with that rifle, it was my fault, not the rifles. Only thing I did was switch to 3f and just kept on shooting.
-
Thank you Taylor.
Every time I build a Hawken I get cured of the desire to build another one. However I've been gathering parts and I'm getting the itch to start one more.
-
I have that same problem. I built almost two hundred Hawqken rifles working for a gunsmith in the late 70's, and swore I'd never build another one. But over the recent years, I've re-kindled the love affair, and have built another half dozen. And I have the parts collected for another one for myself.
-
Somewhere in the 15-20 years ago time frame one of my shooting/hunting buddies and I were eating pizza at his office after closing time and just chewing the fat like we regularly did on Friday evenings. Then he slide open the top drawer of his desk and pulled out what looked to me to be a cap lock from a CVA rifle. It is then when he asked, "What do you suppose we aught to do about this?" Well, with a print of a large elephant behind his office chair, a safari under his belt in 1980 and both of us having enjoyed the writing of F.C. Selous and his treks about the bush of Africa there really was only one answer, "Selous' 4 gauge." His ears immediately perked up and the plotting began. After three weeks of Friday night pizza after hours at the law office the design was beginning to take shape as were the technical requirements and testing procedure once it was finished. We were really hoping we would not get killed or maimed during the process, as neither of us knew what the contained vessel pressures of four ounces of black powder where in a 1 inch bore when we started this project. Thankfully, I knew someone that did.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/YoungFCSelous.jpg)
A number of enlarged photocopies of the picture above each one making the picture bigger as well as written descriptions from his books created a pattern of what we thought Selous' elephant gun looked like. The barrel was 1 inch i.d. ¼ inch wall stainless steel seamless tubing that I no longer remember the specs. of other than what has already been stated. A breech plug was fashioned on a friends lathe and the barrel and breech plug was taken to a welder for him to work his magic on. Before doing any carving the barrel had a small hole drilled where we would place some cannon fuse. The barrel was lashed to a two inch thick plank that was lashed onto several large concrete block with the breech resting against a red elm plank which was placed against the exterior barn wall. The proof load we used was half a pound of black powder and half a pound of shot. The fuse was lit and quick trip to the other side of the barn ensued. I have since read somewhere that the proof test should be normal load times four for black powder. We found an old Herter's 4 ounce spherical sinker mould that when cast we would cut the loop off of. If we patched it there was a snug fit in the smooth bore barrel. The stock was carved by my friend and when it was done it did indeed look like Selous' 4 gauge elephant gun.
We both took our turns shooting it with the 4 ounce round ball and 4 ounce of black powder. At 6'4" and 350+ pound I am not the runt of the litter. Now I have shot a number of heavy recoiling guns and as much as I thought I was prepared for was I thought a 4 gauge elephant gun would bring to the table I can tell you, in reality, I was not! If my friend had not been standing behind me and unbeknownst to me at the time, with his arms extended ready to catch me when the gun went BANG! I would have been on the ground. My left hand totally separated from the forearm. If zero degrees is straight ahead and 180 degrees is behind me the barrel was close to 120 degrees and luckily I still had a hold on the wrist of this 23 pound monster! Having fired it three times that day I can honestly say that level of recoil did leave a mark that lasted more than a couple of days. I was younger then and I am fairly certain I might have healed better then than now. And while I do know where the gun currently resides and hope to have some photos to share before the summer is up. I will heft it up to my shoulder, think of my shooting buddies that have gone to that happy hunting ground we all hope to find one day and I will think about the day I shot a 4 gauge elephant gun like Selous used to whack elephants with a hundred and some years ago, while I wonder what my friends are asking Selous.
As a footnote: I am proud to say that since the elephant gun was built I can only conclude that it scared all the elephants out of our county as none have been seen here since.
-
That is a good story, if the readers do not read too closely & run the numbers.
The writer of that story was out to lunch, imho. A 4oz ball weighs 1,750gr., if & only if they were actually 1.052" in diameter, which is 4 bore.
16 drams is the normal full load for a 4-bore, whether ctg. or ML, with most chaps not loading over 12 drams - which is 327.6gr. powder. 16 drams is 436.8gr. powder.
4 ounces is 1,750gr. which is 64 drams (27.3gr. is 1 dram), 1 ounce is 437.5gr. Why in the world would anyone shoot 4 ounces of powder out of anything but a 2" or3" cannon on wheels?
With a 4 bore round ball, 12 drams of powder developed enough recoil over 200 pounds to break W.W. Greener's recoil machine, which bottomed at 200 pounds.
This story says they shot 5.3 TIMES more powder than a load that developed well over 200 pounds of recoil?
Sorry - I cannot believe that.
Good story though. F. Selous used a shortened Dutch 4 bore fowler at that time.
-
That is a good story, if the readers do not read too closely & run the numbers.
The writer of that story was out to lunch, imho. A 4oz ball weighs 1,750gr., if & only if they were actually 1.052" in diameter, which is 4 bore.
16 drams is the normal full load for a 4-bore, whether ctg. or ML, with most chaps not loading over 12 drams - which is 327.6gr. powder. 16 drams is 436.8gr. powder.
4 ounces is 1,750gr. which is 64 drams (27.3gr. is 1 dram), 1 ounce is 437.5gr. Why in the world would anyone shoot 4 ounces of powder out of anything but a 2" or3" cannon on wheels?
With a 4 bore round ball, 12 drams of powder developed enough recoil over 200 pounds to break W.W. Greener's recoil machine, which bottomed at 200 pounds.
This story says they shot 5.3 TIMES more powder than a load that developed well over 200 pounds of recoil?
Sorry - I cannot believe that.
Good story though. F. Selous used a shortened Dutch 4 bore fowler at that time.
Daryl-I will give you the actual weight of a 4 ounce round ball. Frankly we did not weigh the thing as none of us had a scale with 1/10 of a grain divisions that went over 500 grains. And I vaguely remember the bore diameter being 1.005 and 3/10ths taken with an inside micrometer. We took the mould makers word that it was a 4 ounce ball as per the marking on the mould and we did cut off the mounting loop.
As for the powder it was measured by volume in a 100 grain measure of the two piece collapsible type widely available at the time. I am sure you know the one I mean.
As to why we would put that much powder into the bore: We did not know any better at the time. The Internet had not really gotten to this locale yet. Very few places had it, unlike now where a politician can be "fact" checked before they finish their sentence via a smart phone from Kathmandu.
Frankly, many things that some of us have done are undoubted dangerous. I have always liked fast cars, motorcycles, airplanes, .22 caliber rifles, high voltage rf amplifiers and double barreled shotguns. What you call too much gun powder today, in those days, to us, seemed like another day of taking risks. Some people get bored if there is not life or death on the line when they play. Sometimes you play and get acdf surgery and sometimes you don't.
As it is Daryl, we did indeed put a quarter pound of black powder measured by volume in the 1 inch plus bore and what we thought to be a 1/4 pound lead ball, cap the monster and let 'er rip. My buddy was 6'10" and while we never discussed weight he did mention I would need a couple 50 pound bags of dog food strapped around my waist to even be close. So, if you are bored and need something to do over the summer and your health insurance is paid up, you could print the above photo and enlarge it a few times, then get a 1" i.d seamless stainless steel tube, maybe a cheap lock off of ebay (I am pretty sure you won't wear it out although it may break) or maybe you have one in the top drawer that you are not exactly sure what to do with and a chunk of red elm and have one of your own carved out in no time. Then you can give it a go yourself. Heck, start with that 12 drams you mentioned if you like and are unsure.
In the meantime, I will work on getting some photographs of the monster.
-
Only sissies shoot 4 bores,.... I'm gonna build me a 1 bore, I figger I can get about 25 shots out of a case of powder. :P
-
I have that same problem. I built almost two hundred Hawqken rifles working for a gunsmith in the late 70's, and swore I'd never build another one. But over the recent years, I've re-kindled the love affair, and have built another half dozen. And I have the parts collected for another one for myself.
Oh I pray it's another one of your follow along builds ;D
-
Here's the math. To figure out what 1/4 pound weighs, simply divide 7000 (the # of grains in a pound) by 4 and you get a what a 1/4 pound weighs in grains weight - thus 1/4 # is 1,750gr. weight - that is what a 1/4 pound ball weighs, and that is what a 1/4 pound of powder weighs.
A pound (7,000gr.) contains 16 ounces. There are 437.5gr. in an ounce as well. 4 x 437.5gr. is 1,750grs. which is 1/4 pound.
1750gr. divided by 27.3gr. (1-dram) = 64.10 drams.
I have ZERO intention of shooting any gun with a seamless tubing barrel.
-
Gosh, 1700+ grains of powder in a 1 inch bore would be a pretty long powder column. Count me skeptical. A quarter pound of each, powder/ball would be half pound of ejecta.
-
About the only thing I can say about the ginormous dino slayer muzzleloader is "cool story bro" :)
-
Gosh, 1700+ grains of powder in a 1 inch bore would be a pretty long powder column. Count me skeptical. A quarter pound of each, powder/ball would be half pound of ejecta.
I can understand your skepticism, as had I not seen it done as well as been the subject of it's abuse three times I would be as well.
With a few years of learning under our belt along with the kind folks here on the forum doing some math that at the time we didn't even consider (we were younger then and maybe more foolish, but I am sure it is too early to know for sure) I can't help but think that perhaps half the powder blew out the muzzle, which might explain the enormous fireball visible in daylight that accompanied the big bang.
I am trying to arrange a time when the owner of the monster and I can get together for a few photos. He lives out of town and his next trip home to visit relatives we will be getting together. Not certain as to when it will be, but, hoping before the end of summer.
If it were mine I would invite you fellas over for a range session. At this stage in life I have a desire to shoot it again ... but, not the willingness. Been there, done that.
-
Looks like you’ll be shooting off hand now....
-
I can see the add for that 1 bore now. “ 1 bore big game rifle, like new, shot once, and dropped once, small scratches, and a little blood on it, cheap, make offer will deliver after I get out of the hospital.
Hungry Horse
-
Looks like you’ll be shooting off hand now....
I made a set of quick and dirty short sticks. Might be able to get out to the range Wed or Thurs and see how they work for me.
-
I have said before those Victorian Nimrods were hard men. I have often wondered at the crescent but plate, and feel it might have been ergonomically a backward step. I find my early style rifles with the flat but plates handle so much faster and are more comfortable to shoot than the later style in the bigger bores. I have a .72 bore gun of English make that is in fact quite pleasant to shoot with 4 1/2 drams of fg and a patched ball.
-
I agree with you Heelerau, but the English style gun IMHO has a better stock cut for big bores. The right amount of drop,cast and pitch along with the flat butt make it a better choice.
-
I agree with you Heelerau, but the English style gun IMHO has a better stock cut for big bores. The right amount of drop,cast and pitch along with the flat butt make it a better choice.
Which raise the question as to WHY the Hawken brothers opted for the harder to install crescent.
Bob Roller
-
Perhaps they built a mans gun 8)
-
I wonder if the later rifles did not have the double taper barrels, and the crescent but plate sort of locked the rifle in place when off hand shooting? I have pondered this when shouldering a couple of rifles I have with the later style but plate and straight sided barrels. Your left hand holds the rifle at just behind the point of balance and the hook under the but plate stops the rifle from tipping down.
Cheers
Gordon