AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: m1garand_man on June 06, 2018, 04:38:01 PM
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I'm about to make a powder order and before I do I figured I'd ask what you guys think about kik, and scheutzen compaired to swiss with regards to consistent charge weights, velocities and accuracy.
Thank you.
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No help on your question here. I haven't run out of Goex yet.
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I get excellent accuracy using KIK 2F!
Shoots great out to 200 yards through my .50 Flintlock and the .54 GRRW Hawken.
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I regularly use Schuetzen just because I got a case of it cheap. It shoots as good as Goex. I usually use Swiss 2f in my long range gun, but didn't have any. All my loads this year are Schuetzen 2f, so we'll see this weekend how it measures up. Historically speaking, Swiss has less than 10 fps variation between shots which is why everyone uses it where that matters.
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A while back Muzzle Blasts published an article that compared standard deviation for Scheutzen ,Goex. Swiss and others. The salient fact to me was that Goex 2f had the smallest standard deviation. I believe an ALR member wrote the article.
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I shoot Swiss exclusively.
Swiss and even Goex is far better powder than almost anything made in the 18th c. Though powder used by the military was much more carefully controlled as to the ingredients. In high humidity a powder made with less than pure saltpeter will collect moisture from the air and effect its burn rate. If the ingredients are bad enough it can be unusable. Sailing for 3-4 months at sea and then having the powder not perform? The British would not accept powder coated with "black lead" Graphite. Most of the powder made in the 18th c was stamp mill powder and was often not even pressed and broken but pressed through a screen, by hand, in its damp state to make "grains". The great advance in powder making was in abandoning the stamp mills and using wheel mills and pressing the powder into cakes and then breaking it into granules. Pressing gave uniform density when done right which helped control he burn rate and made the powder more consistent if pressed uniformly.
The European powders, at last report, are made with much better charcoal. This is also important. Charcoal is the fuel and how its "burned" and what wood is used can have a great effect on the powder velocity production, fouling and shot to shot variation.
Now...
I have a 67 caliber rifle patterned after a English rifle circa 1810-1820. It has a Nock breech. If I shoot low grade powder it simply becomes unworkable. I have even had problems with Schuetzen. The problem is that a powder that produces flakes of fouling will drop a flake over the passage to the antechamber and powder will never be present at the vent. Required putting powder through the vent to get the rifle to fire. So I use Swiss. This tells me that by the 1780s (Nocks patent dates to the early 1780s would have to look up the exact year) the British must have had pretty good powder available to the landed gentry at least and by extension their military so far as the fouling characteristics.
How much such powder may or may not have been used in the Kentucky rifle Circa 1780 is only a guess.....
So almost any powder we use today is in someway or another, usually in the milling and the use of retort charcoal, is "better" than what would have been used by Morgan's Riflemen for example. I just know that lower grade powders can't be used with my Nock breech and likely would cause issues with either of these and if a flake blocks the vent any plain breech as well.
Dan
(https://preview.ibb.co/h6pPBo/Flint_Breeches001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ijPD48)
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Try Goex Old Enysford. I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a pound less. I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving. The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer. I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.
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Try Goex Old Enysford. I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a pound less. I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving. The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer. I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.
There are several reasons I don't shoot Goex going back decades. Ingredients is only one.
Dan
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I shoot Swiss 1&1/2 and 2f mainly because I had problems with some GOEX back a few years ago and now have a supply of Swiss to shoot up before I try anything else. I know of more than a few bench shooters who switched back to swiss from Old E. for assorted reasons.
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I’m shooting 3f Eynsford in my .50. I get consistency and an easy clean on the barrel. It’s priced reasonably too.
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FWIW my only comparison would be with Goex. Back in the early 2000's I had a Blue Ridge .50 flintlock with a 39 inch barrel. I shot 80 grains of 3f Goex and a .490 ball patched in ticking with a grease lube. The velocity was right at 1700 fps. When I used 80 grains of Swiss the velocity was right around 1900 fps. Never tried the KIK or the other one.
Bob
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If I was just having fun and money was an issue, I would go with Goex. If you are wanting and able to win matches I would use Swiss.
Now that does not mean that you cant win with Goex.
For me the cost difference does not matter, powder is one of the smallest cost I have associated with shooting ML.
In my opinion Swiss is the best, and that is what I use.
For feeding my shotguns, I will use whatever I got that I want to get rid of.
Fleener
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IMO, shooters using genuine black powder will find there are a lot of other things to consider long before they start looking at what brand of powder they are using in regards to shooting accuracy. The difference will be miniscule at best. And, to be quite honest there are so many factors in accurate shooting that I would look at first. Most shooters are looking for a substitute for practice, and sadly there isn’t one.
Hungry Horse
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IMO, shooters using genuine black powder will find there are a lot of other things to consider long before they start looking at what brand of powder they are using in regards to shooting accuracy. The difference will be miniscule at best. And, to be quite honest there are so many factors in accurate shooting that I would look at first. Most shooters are looking for a substitute for practice, and sadly there isn’t one.
Hungry Horse
Two thumbs up HH. Now if’n I were a sit down per-suction bench rest or X-stix shooter I might see a benefit to Swiss. BUT as a 70 year old offhand flintlock shooter, I shoot Goex just fine thanks (plenty of Agg wins in state matches and 4 National Territorials).
And re that easy cleaning joke, they ALL need cleaning and between shots I just wipe and load.
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Over the past 55 years or so, I've used Dupont, Goex, Jacks Battle Powder (Goex) and Elephant. Not being a match shooter, I have to say that they all served their purpose, shot accurately (with NO bench testing, though) enough to harvest game and hit small targets. There was another one I did use way back; C&H, maybe and/or G/O. My memory fails me on that one. I haven't used Elephant in decades and have stuck with Goex powders, including JBP. Next time I order I might try KIK, Schuetzen or another powder; price is a real issue with me.
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Find little if any variation from lot to lot of Swiss. Can’t be said for other manufacturer’s powders. And then there is the additional cost of Swiss. Well, I find Swiss to be more energetic than others. Have not studied or compared it myself, but the word on the street is that you get 10 to 15% more velocity out of the same weight charge of Swiss than other powders. Reduce your charge weight until you get the same velocity as you do with other powders. More shots per pound if you are counting nickels.
Bottom line, at least for me, for the amount of time, money and effort I have invested into my muzzleloaders, the cost of powder is insignificant. I want the best of the best. Swiss is my choice. I receive it in 25 pound boxes from Powder Inc when stock is running low.
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I have tried several powders in my gun, but not Scheutzen. The powders seemed to very little in their performance, except in my gun over a long period of shooting. My gun really likes the Swiss powder because it burns so clean and is way less susceptible to fouling problems and misfires because of that. That is what makes the Swiss way better for me during a day full of shooting targets. Hope this helps
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Try Goex Old Enysford. I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a pound less. I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving. The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer. I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.
+1 on Olde Eynsford. I used to shoot Swiss and I get better accuracy, softer fouling, and higher velocities than Swiss with OE. Not to mention it's almost $10 per pound cheaper. It Goex's premium powder to equal and depending on the rifle exceed Swiss performance.
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Try Goex Old Enysford. I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a pound less. I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving. The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer. I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.
+1 on Olde Eynsford. I used to shoot Swiss and I get better accuracy, softer fouling, and higher velocities than Swiss with OE. Not to mention it's almost $10 per pound cheaper. It Goex's premium powder to equal and depending on the rifle exceed Swiss performance.
Does it smell different by any chance? I have heard reports. Given the research I have read on various powders and the report that is smells different makes me wonder. It reminds me of a line that Jerry Calonna used to use at times in skits and movies. I just have trust issues, if they could make a powder equal to Swiss they would have years ago. Frankly SFAIK they don't have the key ingredient to make a powder like Swiss. Next test is to rub some on the palm of your hand and see if any black comes off....
Dan
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Try Goex Old Enysford. I used to use Swiss but the Ol' E works just as well and cost me $9 a pound less. I buy it by the case so it's a significant saving. The speed is essentially the same and I believe the Ol' E fouling is softer. I know it's easier to clean up my suppository '74 Sharps.
+1 on Olde Eynsford. I used to shoot Swiss and I get better accuracy, softer fouling, and higher velocities than Swiss with OE. Not to mention it's almost $10 per pound cheaper. It Goex's premium powder to equal and depending on the rifle exceed Swiss performance.
I talked to Hodgdon/Goex when OE came out. I had some questions about the ingredients in it. One of the things he talked about was their goal when making OE. It was to beat Swiss powder. He said they came close but couldn't do it.
So, I question your results.
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Don't know what to tell you. Maybe my chrono is predudiced against foreign powder. Lol
It's not enough velocity difference to worry about but the price difference for the performance is.
Have you ever seen the same hand loads shoot 100 fps different velocities in two different rifles with the same barrel length? I have.....all rifles like different loads. They have personalities.
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Yes, but you also said OE has softer fouling than Swiss. If you saw the trouble Swiss goes through to make their charcoal. You wouldn't think the inexpensive OE could compete much less beat it.
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For my use, if I can't afford it I don't shoot it. Not being a match shooter means that if a powder pushes a prb out of the muzzle with enough zip to take appropriate game and shoots as close as I can hold - blue match heads might even qualify, there - I'll use it depending on price. We're on a fixed income - make that low fixed income - so cost is a major issue.
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For my use, if I can't afford it I don't shoot it. Not being a match shooter means that if a powder pushes a prb out of the muzzle with enough zip to take appropriate game and shoots as close as I can hold - blue match heads might even qualify, there - I'll use it depending on price. We're on a fixed income - make that low fixed income - so cost is a major issue.
Yeah, me too. My SS check is my only income. That's why I stopped using Swiss. I'm going to go back to it because i'm not a fan of Hodgdon.
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Yes, but you also said OE has softer fouling than Swiss. If you saw the trouble Swiss goes through to make their charcoal. You wouldn't think the inexpensive OE could compete much less beat it.
Sir, I don't care how much trouble they go through with whatever step of their manufacturing process. My Caldwell chrono says I get higher MV with OE than Swiss. Less than 40 fps but still. Period.
Your mileage may vary.
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I thought we were talking about fouling? That's the post you quoted.
As for MV? Were the kernels the same size in the Swiss and OE? Not what it says on the bottle but the actual size.
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The amount of fouling seems to be the same as far as the amount after the shot, however it does seem to be softer with OE. That can be attributed to humidity, lube, or pressure during the powder burn during the shot. I had to swab the barrel with Swiss and don't with OE. I use Angelus mink oil paste as lube. Maybe the lube keeps it soft. It's a made to treat leather but works great as a patch lube. The bore looks freshly scrubbed after the patch and ball are loaded. Swiss may be the same as I didn't change lubes until after changing to OE a few years ago.
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My problem with OE is it's made by Hodgdon and I don't trust them. I've never felt that OE was a pure black powder product.
How can they get so much more power than regular Goex and do it so cheap? How can it have less fouling than Swiss?
Swiss shows exactly how they make their powder and what's in it for ingredients. Hodgdon doesn't.
OE may be all you say. What we don't know is how they do it. Is it black powder or is it a sub?
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Much of the cost could be import costs, tariffs or the like. Every ingredient used in its manufacture is contained in the MSDS. It’s required by federal law as an explosive. It real black powder.
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I won’t disagree with anyone that uses a different product than myself. I’m sure we are much the same in that we use what works best for out specific applications. If something doesn’t work for me I’ll find something else to spend my hard earned money on. I’m sure the same applies to you.
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It does work and works good. I tried it when it first came out.
I just don't like cheating and i'm not convinced they aren't. If someone could convince me they aren't i'd gladly use it again. I'd always prefer to use an American product.
I haven't seen the MSDS. Is there anything in it saying secret ingredients in it?
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Lol, no, no secret ingredients. It has the same ingredients as regular Goex. I think they use different ratios of ingredients to make it hotter.
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Here it is. It's on the Goex website.
(https://i.ibb.co/MSzQ78G/image.png) (https://ibb.co/xLnd6mf)
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The ingredient that gives the powder the energy/power is Potassium Nitrate. OE uses less than Swiss. Yet, you get more power with OE.
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I don’t know what to tell you man. It is what it is. I’m not going to say it shot slower when it didn’t. Every rifle has a personality of its own. I don’t know why it’s that way but 3f OE is faster in my rifle than 3f Swiss. I’m not sure what you want me to say. Lol.
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Nothing really. I was ready to drop this a long time ago but you kept coming back. So, I played along. :)
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If I came across rude or disrespectful that was not my intention. If that was how it seemed I apologize.
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Not at all. I have pretty thick skin if you did.
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Yes, but you also said OE has softer fouling than Swiss. If you saw the trouble Swiss goes through to make their charcoal. You wouldn't think the inexpensive OE could compete much less beat it.
Sir, I don't care how much trouble they go through with whatever step of their manufacturing process. My Caldwell chrono says I get higher MV with OE than Swiss. Less than 40 fps but still. Period.
Your mileage may vary.
Velocity is not everything. There are other factors involved. Standard deviation for example. And accuracy. What are the group sizes? How many groups were fired in testing? How many loads tested. Does OE velocity vary from lot to lot? Is one more corrosive than the other? Is OE graphited? Graphite is an age old way to make poorly made powder look better. Its also not combustible at the temps involved and increases the fouling and ejected solids from the muzzle. Is it more hygroscopic? Finally unless they import it I do not believe they can get the right charcoal for a high end BP. Thus I suspect that if will out velocity Swiss with similar granule sizes/charge weights then I have to wonder what they added to the formula. Does it weigh more or less for the same volume of powder?
Dan
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The ingredient that gives the powder the energy/power is Potassium Nitrate. OE uses less than Swiss. Yet, you get more power with OE.
The Potassium Nitrate is just the oxidizer.
The Charcoal is the fuel.
How the charcoal is made, what it is made from, how long and how the three components are milled can make a huge difference in how the powder performs. I find it interesting they use one MSD for all the powders. When I started shooting BP the only powder we could buy was military fuse powder packaged as sporting BP or in the case of the C&H being imported basically a blasting powder grind. It was impossible to get the ballistics from cartridge guns that would match the 19th c figures with the same charge weights. It had the wrong charcoal and was only milled to make the military spec for fuses and boosters. I suspect that the military is still their major market. For example, every hand grenade has a BP fuse.
To make a BP equal to the best being made in the era from the Civil War (at least) on requires the right wood, even cut at the right time of year, CAREFULLY charred, broken up, then milled with the other ingredients for a longer time than the lower grade powders.
If you read Ned Roberts "Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" you will find that the serious shooters only used a few powders, C&H Diamond Grain, Hazzards "Kentucky Rifle" and one or two others. In the late 19th and early 20th C as blackpowder was falling from use Dupont bought up and destroyed all the powder mills in the US. Since, SFAIK, Dupont never made a powder as good as "Kentucky Rifle" the premium powders vanished. Since the military became the main customer they built powder that would meet that spec. Which was not all that great. This remained until Swiss and the other European powders came to America.
Now when I hear of people having blackpowder turn to soup in the pan while hunting, for example, I wonder if the rifle is clean (fouling will suck up water like sponge and wet any powder it touches, good blackpowder will not suck up enough water from the air to fail to fire. However, at Moosic for a long time Goex was using impure Potassium Nitrate. This did not change until the supplier went out of business. Impure PN will cause moisture issues.
Nor was it wheel milled to a particle size that gave best performance. While graphite allows a poorly finished powder to look better and will prevent clumping the the British military would not accept any powder treated with "black lead", graphite. Remember that British War ships sailed all over the planet with ammo stored below the waterline. Powder that was not properly made would make the ship combat ineffective.
NOW consider this.
The powder made in the US at the time of the American Revolution was, by the standards of Swiss, generally very poorly made. It was almost all "stamp mill" (think giant mortar and pestle) mixed/ground powder and the use of presses and breakers was uncommon everywhere. In the mid 18th c a most powder was not press cake powder but simply forced through screens, by hand, to form the granules.
So almost any powder we can buy is superior to that used by Daniel Boone for most of his life. So using Swiss is "not traditional" until at least the late 18th and early 19th c.
However, my Nock patent breech rifle will not function with a powder that forms flakes of powder fouling, in a shot or two it will fail to fire. I ran in to this with Schuetzen when I tried it. So I only use Swiss FF. I never bothered to try anything else. What does this tell me? It tells me for the 1787 Nock breech to work without any hair pulling a pretty good powder was needed. Better than much of what we buy to day.
There is no easy answer to this. But I do wonder how GOEX can make a powder that is supposedly better than Swiss and sell it cheaper unless there is a significant tariff in the European powder.
This is all knowledge based for the most part on research by the Mad Monk, Bill Knight, who over the years has been kind enough to share his finding with me.
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Bill was kind enough to share them with me too.
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I like Olde Eynsford 2F and 1 1/2F but not 3F. Swiss is good, but I can get OE at Ft. Bridger. Here are comparison targets shot with 100 grains (weight calibrated measures) of several powders in my .50 antelope rifle. Swiss frequently shoots wide groups like here, just a matter of changing the charge to group better. I did not have Swiss 3F to compare, and haven't shot good groups with OE 3F so didn't use it. I was working up an antelope hunting load.
(https://i.ibb.co/R76Zp18/50-50-hunt-Test.jpg) (https://ibb.co/st1kvh7)
Here is OE 2F and 1 1/2F in my Bridger Hawken where I did some string cutting from bench rest at 100 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/6tn9qTR/String-Cut100.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rp78XzG)
The top target was to check my sighting. It was dead center side to side.
(https://i.ibb.co/mhSBwvK/Bridger-String-Cuts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2c56Q8r)
OE 1 1/2F is my favorite in .50 and .54 calibers.
(https://i.ibb.co/6mxfq7t/String-Cut-OE1-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2yQfp1M)
You can enlarge these pictures by holding down Control key and hitting the + key.
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as long as i can afford it, which should be as long as they offer it, i load and shoot nothing less than swiss - 3f for the trad muzzys and 1-1/2f for the bpcrs. the only powder i've tested that can come close to swiss is goex oe ... close, but no cigar.
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I believe guns shoot better with anything they like versus anything we like. My target rifle likes Swiss and it shoots better and cleaner. My target pistol likes Goex because it works good and is cheaper. (My pistol is fugal)
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Swiss is top 1 black powder, shoot much cleaner than any other powder
not the cheapest ,but the best and consistently
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What's the opinions on Graf & Son Black Powder ? Actually it's Wano. They have producing it for quite some time so obviously there are folks shooting it..just curious ????
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You can't go wrong with either Swiss or O.E. (kinda like fighting over Ford or Chevy). As to Kik can't get people to take it as a prize on the blanket until the end. At my age with only fair eyesight for shooting, compounded that I only shoot flintlocks I stick with GOEX 3F.
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Do you weigh powder charges, or use the stricken method? If stricken, was the measure set or adjusted with GOEX, then you merely poured in the Swiss and expected the same weight? Did you actually weigh the powder thrown by the measure?
I used a measure that 'threw' 80gr. (weighed) of my current GOEX 2F, it threw 78gr. of my current GOEX 3F (weighed) and 85.0gr. (weighed) of my current 1 1/2F Swiss.
Same measuring tube threw 78gr. 3F GOEX----------- highest vel.
------------------------------------ 80gr. 2F GOEX-----------lowest vel.
------------------------------------ 85gr. 1 1/2F Swiss------in-between
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The $$ of Swiss is well above my pay grade; OE is a substitute I can possibly handle.
Price is important for me when it comes to ordering powder. Goex works well for me, gives more accuracy than I can take advantage of and gives excellent velocity and internal ballistics. I can't really see paying more for a powder that does essentially nothing more than a cheaper powder can accomplish. I don't compete. I can't see/shoot as well as I could years ago. Killing deer at under 100 yards, informally shooting at paper targets at the range and rolling tin cans pretty much sums up my powder burning nowadays. Yes, velocity is not the only important quality of a powder. Accuracy is at the top, IMHO, when it comes to the most important characteristic of a powder. So what works for my shooting might not work for someone else; guns are individuals, too. The quality of various powder brands varies a good bit; just like automobiles.
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I'm with you Hanshi. Most of the target competition I shoot is offhand. When I'm back east I shoot against a younger man who is a fine rifle shot. He has done very well at Friendship over the years. He uses Swiss 3f and Teflon patching. I use Goex 3f and bear lubed pocket drill. Our aggregate scores are very close. Sometimes he bests me by 3 to 10 points, sometimes I best him by the same. I don't think powder brands has a thing to do with our results.
I have shot Schuetzen Powder with the same results.
I don't shoot crossticks much any more, but when I did I used Goex, and did very well with it.
A lot of it is between the ears. If you think you shoot better with Swiss nothing else will do.
I could never justify the price difference. There is a lot more to winning matches than the powder that you use.