AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Skychief on October 09, 2018, 03:07:09 AM
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For good sized Midwestern whitetail, how small of a powder charge will get the job done out to 75 yards or so, in your experience or opinion?
Imagine, for the sake of the question, the smoothbore used will have a 42" barrel.
Thanks and best regards, Skychief
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I use 110 gr. 1&1/2 swiss in my 20 bore rifle. flattens the trajectory, bucks the wind and is the most accurate load for my rifle.
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70 grains will certainly do the job if the rifle likes it.
Think of a 45-70, they shoot a 500 grain plus bullet. Most only will only get 60 some grains of powder in the case with the bullet seated, and it has enough energy to shoot a buffalo at several hundred yards.
I plan on using 85 grains with my 12 bore rifle, 580 grain rb on deer this year. Why 85? because the rifle likes it, and it is dead on at 75 yards with that load.
Fleener
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I shoot 65 grains of FFF in my 42 inch barreled smooth bore. First deer I ever shot with it was 75 yards. Dropped in it's tracks.
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I have to ask why you are looking for a small powder charge in such a big bore weapon? If it a recoil issue, jack up the charge, and eliminate the patch, and or wad, in the load. If it for some other reason I don’t know what to tell you. The patchless load is pretty accurate, and is the fastest reload I’ve ever seen.
Hungry Horse
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One reason I'm asking Hungry Horse, I'm reading 'the encyclopedia of the fur trade'. In it, I'm seeing the majority of the North West guns weighed about 6 pounds. Many listed were 5 1/2 pounds.
Made me wonder if we are using larger charges than the natives did when using these guns for killing deer. So, my question became how light of a charge will predictably kill whitetail out to 75 yards or so using a 20 gauge smoothy.
Hard to fathom their using 110 grain loads in such light guns. Seems it would be hard on both the gun and its user.
A .600" or so ball starts out big and heavy. I wonder if we are fooling ourselves regarding how much velocity is needed to kill deer with these, assuming the ball is placed where need be.
Any thoughts?
Best regards, Skychief.
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Biggest challenges are trajectory and accuracy. If you find a light load that is accurate to 75 yards and you can manage the trajectory, it will kill deer. There are period references indicating Native Americans often fired light loads and could be identified by the light report.
Sunday after a shoot, I fired a 25 grain squib load as my last shot at a gong at 125 yards. Just held high and “tinked” it. Can’t say it rang.
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Rich,
Maybe you just went home before the ball got there!
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Too bad you can't chronograph your loads. That would tell you a lot in terms of capability/lethality. That said, my friend used 50 gr FFg with a patched ball and lost his deer. He found it the next day after the coyotes were finished with it. Penetration was less than spectacular so there was no exit hole. He suspects that he hit a shoulder and holed one lung , perhaps. He now has standardized on 70 gr of FFg and is happy with the results. Trajectory isn't usually an issue here because of the thick woods and short distances. I prefer enough power to achieve a pass through , and there is the factor that bear season overlaps deer season. Last Fall, I shot a nice black bear on opening morning of deer season.
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Hi Bob, the bear you shot in deer season-did you use the 20 bore or 10 bore and what powder charge and ball size do you use in both of those guns?
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Skychief;
The historic evidence for patching a ball when shooting a smoothbore is fairly slim. While there are references to natives shooting round balls held in with a blanket wad. Other references to military paper cartridges used instead of a patched ball are also numerous. These loads almost always use an undersized ball, and a fairly heavy charge. Recoil from an undersized unpatched ball is quite manageable, and quite accurate until the velocity bleeds off. This makes the gun quite lethal on big, or dangerous game out to about a hundred yards.
Hungry Horse
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If I remember correctly, last Fall's bear was taken with my 20 bore , 100 gr FFg, and a .600 ball in a paper cartridge
I was actually going out for deer , had canoed across my beaver pond, and found the bear asleep on the dam. I paddled up within about 10 feet of him before he wised up, which is when I shot. Dressed him out, put him in the canoe, and was home for breakfast. I've shot 3 or 4 bears with a 20 bore and they work well. That said, I still prefer my 10 bore just because I really like the gun. I never feel under gunned when I'm carrying it. My load is usually 120 gr FFg in a paper cartridge along with a .715 ball. That is the same load I use on deer. Sometimes I'll up the charge to 140 gr if I'm out specifically for moose or if an extremely large bear has been hanging around. We had one here top 500# last year.
I have never recovered a ball using that gun, unless I dug it out of the ground [ Shot one bear from a tree stand some years ago ] As mentioned, all big game hunting with these guns is done with paper cartridges. They are accurate, quick to reload, and easy to carry.
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Thanks for the info Bob. I have used a 20 bore rifle for the last 5 bear and a 58 cal. before that. Both worked well but the 20 just puts them down so much faster and will pass through more often all things equal.
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The older I get, the more that 20 bore grows on me :) I'm using a Chamber's cherry stocked officer's fusil and it is a delight . It has a round tapered 40 in barrel, 1 1/4 inch at the breach. The Chamber's English round faced lock is sure fire.
I originally built the gun for partridge, since the 10 bore and my shooting had given dozens of them a college education ref repeat misses :-[ The 20 handles much faster and I'm getting better at hitting those speedsters.
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My 20 bore flint SB uses 82gr. (3 drams) for patched round ball shooting on the trail, as well as with 1 1/8oz shot for shooting clay birds. For feathered birds, switch out 7 1/2's for lead 6's.
If I were to go hunting with it, I would be using no less than 110gr. 2F, with the patched .595" ball in .020" ticking patches. The 82gr. charge would work, but 110gr. is more accurate.
My max range for this gun is 50yards for deer as at that range, I can still hold them into 6" - no better for 5 shots, always a flyer or two opens the group to 6". A tree stand or blind hunting is requisite, for me.
Yes, I hit the 110yard gong now and then, even the bunny rabbit at 94 yards, but it would not be ethical to hunt deer to those longer ranges with my 20 bore. I have rifles for that.
My range finder is always with me when hunting.
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My 20ga isn't a featherweight but isn't heavy either; kinda moderate. My load is a .600" lead ball patched and lubed over 70 grains of 3F. I like this load because of the accuracy it gives - 3" 3 shot groups at 50 yards. The last deer I killed was with that load and a running shot as well. I've seen other deer drop in their tracks that quick, but not a great many.
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Daryl, your 20 bore is fed a slightly smaller ball, and 10 more gr of FFg than mine, but I don't consider that to be much a difference for hunting. We are both getting the accuracy we need. Like you , I consider my 20 and my 10 for that matter, to be 50 yard guns when hunting deer. { max for bear too, but I have always been closer ] I'm comfortable stretching that distance to 100 yards or so when hunting moose. That is where the 10 really shines.
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With any gun be it rifle smoothbore or even a bow, for deer hunting, consider that you must be able to hit, offhand, a 10" paper plate every time at whatever range you choose. If you can do it at 60 yards but not every time at 70, then 60 yards is your maximum range, just for example.
For moose, your target can be a beach ball, so your range will be further, but your charge must be sufficient to completely penetrate the critter, ideally. With the round ball, it is my experience that upon contact, the ball pierces the skin and pulls a plug of hair into the hole, effectively plugging it so that there is almost no blood trail. An exit wound is almost crucial. As an example, I shot a moose with a Brown Bess musket having a .75" bore using a .735" patched ball and 100 grains of powder. The range was paced off at 100 paces. The ball smashed the near side leg bone, a rib, perforated the scapula, both lungs, the offside rib, and the leg bone on the offside, stopping on the hide without exiting. The moose had been bedded when I came upon it, and when I shot there was a blast of snow from the offside shoulder. This indicated to me that the ball stretched that hide significantly, yet did not perforate it. Upon impact the moose staggered and dropped it's head. It walked slowly about twelve yards, and fell onto it's side. There was a significant amount of blood in the snow from it's mouth and nostrils but not a drop from the entrance hole. This is just to illustrate the importance of a pass through shot on a less than mortal shot placement.
Obviously, the same requirement pertains to deer, but the ballistics' needs are less dramatic. My own Chambers 20 gauge smoothbore likes 86 gr. FFg GOEX, a .609" pure lead ball from a .600" Lee mould, and a .020" patch lubed with TOW's mink oil. My effective extreme range for deer, as described above, is 85 yards. I emphatically submit that each of us needs to discover their own maximum effective range, and adhere to it religiously.
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out to 75 yards, the question is more about *consistent* accuracy and not about killing effectiveness of a 20ga ball.
regardless of the 20ga load, the answer will be the results of one's personal accuracy testing.
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As is in any hunting, shot placement is really every thing. Being able to place your shot in the right spot every time at what ever yardage is your max effective range just like Taylor noted which is one reason to develop the best shooting load your rifle is capable of and using that load often so you can place that shot where it will work the best. JMHO
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No disagreement here on the need to shoot accurately and within one's accurate range.
I should have asked the question as...large, broadside whitetail, 75 yards or closer, perfectly centered lung shot with a twenty gauge roundball. How small of a powder charge might one expect to humanely, quickly take said whitetail down?
Best regards, Skychief
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No disagreement here on the need to shoot accurately and within one's accurate range.
I should have asked the question as...large, broadside whitetail, 75 yards or closer, perfectly centered lung shot with a twenty gauge roundball. How small of a powder charge might one expect to humanely, quickly take said whitetail down?
Best regards, Skychief
20 yards - 40 grains of swiss 3f
75 yards - 70 grains of swiss 3f
see the problem? distance.
you don't need to ask, you need to test some stuff out.
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from a 20 year old magazine article, .610" RB muzzle velocity from 30" rifle barrel with Goex ffg
50gr 1103fps
80gr 1381fps
100gr 1520fps
120gr 1637fps
160gr 1793fps
I'm thinking a smoothbore would yield slightly lower velocity, and roundballs shed velocity far more quickly than conicals. What I would do is take my gun to the range and see what kind of groups I got at 50 yards minimum with powder charges starting at 60gr and working up. If you can't shoot a decent group with tolerable recoil, there is no point in shooting further.
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talk is interesting but cheap.
there is NO substitute for personal testing.
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The way the question is asked makes it hard to give a "right" answer because we don't know the velocity and energy of "the light load at 75 yds." There are many so called experts who claim you need 600 to 900 ft. lbs. of energy to kill deer. IF you used that premise how much powder do you need to use to get that amount of energy at that yardage? Would the required amount be an accurate load in the gun. One reply said 65 gr. was ok but another said 50 was not enough. You might need to do some chronograph work like Bob suggested to find the info you need.
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i see no need to chronograph ball speed. even a slow traveling 300+ grain ball will kill deer dead-right-there IF hit in a good spot. the problem is distance. that slow traveling 300+ grain ball, with that light powder load touched off behind it, will knock a deer down for the count at 100 yards let alone 75 yards, IF hit in a good spot. it's all too obvious what the concern will be. it still comes down to consistent accuracy of both the gun and its operator - and under realistic hunting venue conditions, not out at a comfy gun range.
you find a good, stout load that yer gun likes, and that you can achieve consistent minute-of-deer at 75 yards and then you've got a good beginning. luck will still be needed, but that's hunting. been there, done that.
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I like to chronograph projectiles and especially those from my guns. Using a chrono will tell one much more than just velocity. One think is velocity "consistency". Bullets/balls with the lowest extreme spread Usually give better long range accuracy and often at close range, too. Study "es" along with "sd" to see if the first round was way slow and the following round way fast. Most any ol' gun will look pretty good to okay at 25 yards. But it's at 50 yds on out where one sees the difference between "uber" and consistent..
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Good point Hanshi, it's like Rich said, I think you want to do more that " tink " the gong when your talking about taking a deer cleanly.
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Lets remember the OP was talking about a .62 smooth bore gun, so rifled gun info may not apply. I am not, however, saying velocity will not have an effect on group or general accuracy.
I have owned one smooth bore gun to date but am building a .62 smooth rifle as we speak. It will be more like a rifle then a smooth bore as I will add good sights and a set trigger system. Its a very old Getz barrel and I expect good things from it once I develop my loads.
Just sayin
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One reason I'm asking Hungry Horse, I'm reading 'the encyclopedia of the fur trade'. In it, I'm seeing the majority of the North West guns weighed about 6 pounds. Many listed were 5 1/2 pounds.
Made me wonder if we are using larger charges than the natives did when using these guns for killing deer. So, my question became how light of a charge will predictably kill whitetail out to 75 yards or so using a 20 gauge smoothy.
Hard to fathom their using 110 grain loads in such light guns. Seems it would be hard on both the gun and its user.
A .600" or so ball starts out big and heavy. I wonder if we are fooling ourselves regarding how much velocity is needed to kill deer with these, assuming the ball is placed where need be.
Any thoughts?
Best regards, Skychief.
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I’ve read where settlers and white scouts could tell a Native American had fired a fusil because they used lighter charges of powder. I’m guessing 70 grains was a medium powder charge for round ball in a 20 gauge for most folks as that’s about what charge would be used for one ounce of shot. Just a guess.
Learning from Daryl I know shoot a squib load in my guns as the last shot to clear and burn off any fouling close to the breech. It’s kind of fun guessing then seeing how low a ball shoots with 20-30 grains of powder. I try to guess hold-over and try the 100 yard gong. It shoots at least a foot lower than a regular load at that range.
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In re-reading this thread along with the answers, I am left with the thought that Taylor's response about accuracy is one if not THE best answer.
I will qualify this statement by stating that in order to achieve the requisite accuracy at whatever range you desire, you will need to use more and
more powder as the range becomes longer. To shoot the pie plate (10") at 40 yards, requires less powder than to consistently hit the pie plate at
75yards. With smoothbores shooting round ball (assuming the OP is talking about smoothbores) you must be prepared to shoot the longer ranges,
even though your shot might only be 40yards.
Thus, the onus is on your to do your due diligence and find out what your 'range' is by testing.
If the firearm is a 20 bore rifle, ie: a .615" (actual 20 bore) to .620" in the bore, a load of 82gr.(3 drams) to 85gr. is likely a decent load for shooting
good sized deer to 100yards or so. Even then, better accuracy will be achieved through the use of more powder, however the 82-85gr. charge will
be plenty accurate enough for deer and produce a decent trajectory.
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Good luck hitting a deer at 75 yaahds with a Smoothbore.
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My old huntin’ buddy the late Glenn Wilds killed a nice bull elk with the trade gun, that him, and I, built from basically junk. It was 20 gauge, with a 28” shotgun barrel, a rebuilt (by me) Lott lock, and my hand forged furniture. He shot that elk at eighty five yards, with eighty grains of 2F, and a patched 595 round ball. I turned that elk upside down, broke a rib on the entry side, passed through both lungs, and was under the skin on the off side. A young hunter who has lived in Idaho his entire life and seen lots of elk shot, said he wouldn’t have believed it if he hadn’t seen it. So I suppose a whitetail doesn’t need anymore killin’ than that.
Hungry Horse
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Just think of your load as a 22 Long Rifle pushing a 320 grain ball. ;D
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Try extrapolating from this load and a larger bore. This Bess was loaded with 80 gr. of 3f Goex and a patched .715 ball. The shot was 60 yards or so. The ball entered the left side at an angle and blasted out the right side breaking the shoulder where the leg bone attaches before exiting. The deer limped for 20 or so yards and bled out I suspect a .600 ball over 80gr. would do as much damage or enough to take the meat.
(https://i.ibb.co/V980M5v/Kings-musket-makes-meat-again.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F3tk8CB)
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I need more practice...to keep up with you guys....
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Good luck hitting a deer at 75 yaahds with a Smoothbore.
Have you tried shooting a smoothbore at 75yards? 100yards? Have you tried shooting at those ranges with larger and larger powder charges - THAT is
what I was getting at and thought I had spelled out. It can be done - BUT - you have to feed the beast to do it.
For shooting at 100yards & consistently hitting that pie plate, might take 120 or 130gr. powder. But - the gun will do it if you feed it correctly. I have sincere
doubts that a naked ball will work. I had a 12 bore that would consistently shoot into 10" at 100 meters (109yds) alternating each barrel (SxS), but it took
190gr. of 2F to do it. It also kicked nasty/bad - not much fun to shoot. I also shot a deer with it at about 95 to 100yards on a logging slash. It might have
been a bit further than that - hard to say. It worked and the ball exited making a 3/4" hole in and out, high lung shot. The deer went down.
Vel. 1,550fps, 500gr. round ball.
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Oh, and by the way Glenn’s little junkyard trade gun weighs only five and a half pounds loaded. A hundred grains of powder in that little gun with its traditional tradegun stock, would break your face for sure.
Stop depending on high velocity, and start concentrating on hitting the deer in the right end.
Hungry Horse
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If the reason for the OP's question was to reduce recoil, try 1F powder. Slower acceleration reduces felt recoil. He may be able to use quite a bit more 1F than 2F. That might give lower recoil and same or higher velocity.
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Here is what I know. My friend shot a dow with 60 gr FFg at about 40 yards. The deer got away and was found the next day after coyotes had their fill. He hit it a little too far back. Not by much , but enough.
We shot the 20 bore with loads down to 40 gr FFg. We found that RB's over 40 Gr will bounce off stumps. Not good. I suspect that load would still kill a deer at under 25 yards, but the limitations would be very real.
We want an accuracy load for our rifles, and test the variables to find it. I do the same with my smoothbores and I know that my 20 will not shoot to it's capability with anything under 100 gr FFg.
That's using my paper cartridges. That load is actually capable of the somewhat mythical 3 in group at 50 yards. Less powder, or a loose ball opens that to 6 to 8 inches at 50 yards. A 6 in group at 50 yards is next to useless at 100 yds if you are deer hunting. I suggest folks find out what their guns like in terms of accuracy and go from there. If you want to limit yourself to 25 yards, there's a lot more leeway [ much like rifles ]
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I suggest folks find out what their guns like in terms of accuracy and go from there. If you want to limit yourself to 25 yards, there's a lot more leeway [ much like rifles ]
Pure gold, Bob.
Picking a load and using that for shooting at 50 or more yards, is not what needs to be done. Working up a load is.
I've noted this a few times here on the forum, to explain what I have seen happen, with light loads vs. heavier loads. One of our guys used 65gr. 2F in his 20 bore fowler
with patched round ball & .020" patch.
On one particular 92yard gong, perhaps due to the normal lighting on that shot, oft times through the binoculars, I could see quite a bit of his ball's flight. The ball would
arc towards the target, seemingly in the last few feet, to divert like a hook, curve or drop-ball in baseball, to miss the gong by a good 3 feet.
Taylor's shots, on the other hand, using a full 85gr. 2F in his (also long barreled) 20 bore also with a .020" patch, arced toward the gong and hit, more times than not, without
showing the curve balls - not once.
One of the regular smoothbore winners at Hefley Creek rendezvous, who oft times posts scores that beat the rifle shooters quite handily, uses 75gr. (I think) 2F in his 20 bore
for most of the shots. I had a bit of a conversation with him regards smoothbore balls taking on a spin and spinning away from the line of departure like baseballs. Also, a
slight advantage could be found with increasing the velocity somewhat, so that the ball got out further before taking on that spin. He asked how much and I simply said, the
further the shot, the more powder needed.
Well a day or so later, there was a smoothbore match held & one of the shots was 150yards. He was the only one who hit it and he did it twice in a row. He was overjoyed at
this, and of course, as was normal, he won that event. He came to my camp site to tell me about it as I was there & had not competed in that event. I asked "how much powder
did you use" He replied "150gr. 2F and aimed right at it".
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The 20 ga. smoothbore I own has never been fired farther than 50 yards; and 50 yards is a seldom encountered shot in the places I've mostly hunted. My average shot has probably been 25 to 30 yards, maybe even less. With the guns hunting load of 75 grains of 3F and a patched .600" ball typical 50 yard 3-shot groups range from 2.5" to 3.0" off a bench. The gun has a rear sight and is fired like a rifle. I later found that the ball some 15' from the muzzle was clocking pretty close to 1400 fps. I even tried on up to 100 grains of 2F with no noticeable improvement in performance. The last deer I killed was with that gun/load at 20 yards, again typical. The shot was a DRT. Deer are easy to kill if the shot is directed toward the heart-lung area. Other hits work just as well and I've probably made them all, or at least the vast majority of them. Neck, shoulder, spine, head, etc, they all worked even though I did not aim at those areas other than a few times, maybe three total.
The only long shots taken have been when hunting in pastures & fields, and those, dear hearts, were accomplished with rifles, not smoothbores. And with the emphasis on "more powder at longer range" the charges were significantly larger than the woodland-brush deer required.
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Funny Hanshi, about the "other" hits. John Whooters used a CVA (I think) rifle to shoot a buck once, wrote it up. It was a perfect centre of the neck shot. Later in the story, he noted he had aimed
at the heart/lung area behind the leg and then stated he had come to believe from this, that "all neck shooters are liars." ;D
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He do have a point thar Daryl.
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I shoot 65 grains of FFF in my 42 inch barreled smooth bore. First deer I ever shot with it was 75 yards. Dropped in it's tracks.
Shovelbuck, Excellent point. Your load is all that’s needed.
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I shoot 65 grains of FFF in my 42 inch barreled smooth bore. First deer I ever shot with it was 75 yards. Dropped in it's tracks.
Shovelbuck, Excellent point. Your load is all that’s needed.
If you hit it in the right spot ;D I've seen some 3 to 5 shot groups at that distance that would speculate wounding or missing as a all of the dice
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I suggest folks find out what their guns like in terms of accuracy and go from there. If you want to limit yourself to 25 yards, there's a lot more leeway [ much like rifles ]
Pure gold, Bob.
Picking a load and using that for shooting at 50 or more yards, is not what needs to be done. Working up a load is.
I've noted this a few times here on the forum, to explain what I have seen happen, with light loads vs. heavier loads. One of our guys used 65gr. 2F in his 20 bore fowler
with patched round ball & .020" patch.
On one particular 92yard gong, perhaps due to the normal lighting on that shot, oft times through the binoculars, I could see quite a bit of his ball's flight. The ball would
arc towards the target, seemingly in the last few feet, to divert like a hook, curve or drop-ball in baseball, to miss the gong by a good 3 feet.
Taylor's shots, on the other hand, using a full 85gr. 2F in his (also long barreled) 20 bore also with a .020" patch, arced toward the gong and hit, more times than not, without
showing the curve balls - not once.
One of the regular smoothbore winners at Hefley Creek rendezvous, who oft times posts scores that beat the rifle shooters quite handily, uses 75gr. (I think) 2F in his 20 bore
for most of the shots. I had a bit of a conversation with him regards smoothbore balls taking on a spin and spinning away from the line of departure like baseballs. Also, a
slight advantage could be found with increasing the velocity somewhat, so that the ball got out further before taking on that spin. He asked how much and I simply said, the
further the shot, the more powder needed.
Well a day or so later, there was a smoothbore match held & one of the shots was 150yards. He was the only one who hit it and he did it twice in a row. He was overjoyed at
this, and of course, as was normal, he won that event. He came to my camp site to tell me about it as I was there & had not competed in that event. I asked "how much powder
did you use" He replied "150gr. 2F and aimed right at it".
In a smooth bore, the ball must be kept supersonic to keep it from turning into a knuckle ball when it goes transsonic. As my late friend Bruce Schwidt used to say."MORE Powder !!"
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I have heard that same point from long time Bench shooters about keeping the ball going over the speed of sound ( some place around 1400 fps ) other wise they would start that Knuckle Balling. Those good bench shooters know a thing or two about the round ball in flight.
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"In a smooth bore, the ball must be kept supersonic to keep it from turning into a knuckle ball when it goes transsonic. As my late friend Bruce Schwidt used to say."MORE Powder !!"
I had not thought about the sub sonic speed.
Maybe that's why the 'ole' 7 bore shoots a 1000 grain RB quite well at 1100 fps.
What about birdshot, does speed matter?
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# of pellets and pattern is the most important thing, as long as the pellets are large enough & fast enough to do the job at hand, no matter what that job is.
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FWIW, In going over this (interesting) thread I came upon an old post of mine where I typed in a load that was quite in error. In the post I stated that the prb hunting load I use is 70 grns of 3F. Definitely 70 grains is a load I shoot frequently at the range and sometimes even 60 grains of 3F is used to conserve powder. In the bush where the deer are my 20 ga will always be loaded with 75 grains of 3F if a prb is used. Just to be clear. 8)
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FWIW, In going over this (interesting) thread I came upon an old post of mine where I typed in a load that was quite in error. In the post I stated that the prb hunting load I use is 70 grns of 3F. Definitely 70 grains is a load I shoot frequently at the range and sometimes even 60 grains of 3F is used to conserve powder. In the bush where the deer are my 20 ga will always be loaded with 75 grains of 3F if a prb is used. Just to be clear. 8)
A 5 grain difference, being less than 10 % of the total load is not going to be of any significance.
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After hearing from Bob in the Woods, I believe I will tote my nice English double 10-bore. Back-up shot ready already in the left barrel.
I used to reliably hit 10" targets at 200-250 yards, every time. Alas, that 10-bore must be wearing out, because now, at age 75, I find it to be unreliable at any longer distance than 100 yards. And looking at that old double, I better bring that upper limit back to about 70 yards. Shame these old guns lose their accuracy with the passing of the years.
For deer, I do have a pair of 20-bores that actually shoot pretty well. And hopefully, by next hunting season, I will have a nifty .62 cal Jaeger all ready to go.
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That little small bore Jaeger should work out find, at least on the smaller deer.
The larger the hole, the further they will shoot, if you feed them what they want.