AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Eagle92 on December 01, 2018, 10:43:16 PM
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Colorado Muzzle loader elk regs show 54 cal round ball minimum.
Can a flintlock be built to shoot a round ball 400yds?
many of our shots are taken over 300 yds.
What is the max range on any round ball?
maybe I should just make a flinter to shoot modern sabots?
THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!
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Roundball is not suitable for hunting accuracy at that range. Also the ballistic coefficient is very bad so the energy in the round is getting pathetic at those sorts of ranges. With iron sights, the shooter's accuracy even with a modern cartridge may be questionable at 400 yards or even 300 IMHO. Your hunting range should be dictated by the range where you can be sure you will make a clean kill, not by the convenient range to the game. If you are going to hunt with roundball, you'll just have to do a bit more on the hunt part to get within effective hunting range of your weapon of choice.
Gerald
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Seriously?
Elk at 400yards?
You obviously have little idea about ballistics.
Ethics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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First, welcome to the forum.
As you can already see, it is not a good idea at those kind of ranges for a round ball.
200 yards would be a VERY long shot for most anything with a round ball and have a good ethical kill.
Sure you can shoot 200 yards, I do at targets with a round ball. Not game.
You could make a english sporting rifle in a flintlock or a percussion gun that shoots a concial bullet that would be capable of taking elk at 400 yards. With the right ML rifle, I would not hesitate to do so. Others will say that you cant or should not, but I would not hesitate with the right setup and conditions.
If you go with a sabot, that might work, and might work well. Just got to be careful not to go to light of a bullet. At that range you will need the weight of the bullet for knockdown since you do not have a lot of speed.
The other big issue is if you miss judge the distance at 400 yards by 25 yards, you will most likely miss your target. Or worse blow out a knee on an elk.
For what it is worth, I am a competitive long range ML shooter, and we compete out to 1,000 yards. So shooting at 500 yards or less anymore is typically not difficult for me. But again, using the right setup and conditions.
You will get a lot of teeth gnashing regarding your question, but dont let that scare you off. Lots of good people here and IMO the best forum on the web. Sometimes we forget that not everyone has the same level of expertise and experience.
Flleener
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I think I would suggest elk at 100 yards or even less with a .54 and RB. A bit more hunting/stalking I suppose.....
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What is the max range on any round ball?
Just so you know, there is a difference between maximum range and maximum effective range. The former has to do with distance and the latter to do with energy.
Hatcher's Notebook has an article and chart giving the maximum range of various round balls.
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Let's make this simple. You line up on the elk. You touch the trigger an said elk takes a step or two. What you thought was going to be a well placed shot. Turns out to be a gut shot. Which equates to a long tracking job of you find it. But the animal suffers a very agonizing death. Nope not my idea of ethical hunting. IMHO Oldtravler
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Sorry I was so blunt.
Snapper was pretty much spot-on with his post.
A good conical (I would personally NEVER consider any sabot) in a flat-nosed hollow point pure lead 450 through 650gr. bullet of groove diameter, .45 for lighter, 50 through .54 for heavier
if used in a rifle I was very well familiar with, and had practiced extensively at 100 through 500yards in 50 yard intervals and had a sight that could be regulated for each of those
ranges - (yes, such a sight is available but has no place on an even remotely PC ML). I might consider such a shot, perhaps on a bedded bull - again- ranged with a laser unit, and good sights
calibrated for the range - it is possible, but
as oldtraveller noted, 2 steps with exactly the correct hold turns into a gut shot, shot through the hind legs, or hitting a cow, or one of a number of other
problems\errors - other elk, not seen at the time.
Who is spotting the shot - has to be out of the smoke, to positively tell if a hit & where it is hit, if it is a hit. ML 'bullet' when striking large game, usually makes no more than a slit that usually
does not bleed. High lung hit might not bleed for a 400yard run.
Usually an exit is necessary for any decent blood trail. I'm sorry, the requirements, as far as I'm concerned, are too strenuous for 98% of modern rifle shooters, let alone ML bullet shooters.
Round balls, in my opinion are totally out of the equation. All of this is rather elementary for me - stalk closer or don't shoot. Out to 150yards with a decent load and .54 or larger round ball, a
bullet shooting ML has absolutely no advantage.
I've seen that myself.
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IMO if you take a shot at an elk at over 150 yards you are very likely going to be in for either a very long tracking session, or a lost elk all together. A muzzleloader shooting a round ball simply doesn’t have enough velocity to kill an elk sized animal beyond that range.
Hungry Horse
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Sir: Daryl pretty much said it all in one word: ETHICS. Archers catch $#*! if a rifle hunter finds a lost carcass with an arrow shaft. But rifle losses are seldom found unless a trapper or houndsman is out after the hunting season.
Despite what many want to think, few folks can consistently keep their shots in a paper plate at 300 or 400 yards with a tupperware stocked suppository rifle & scope. Not to mention wind, breathing control and an endless list of other factors.
4 (FOUR) football fields with a rocklock????? We need to carefully cultivate a respectable image of sport hunting.
Try closing that range to reasonable. Strive to be a better HUNTER rather than a "shooter".
I'd rather lose a shot than lose a bull.
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While living in Idaho,, I killed many many elk,
All but one were cows, as I'm a meat hunter
All were killed with a .54 flintlock rifle, l never
shot one over 70 yards away, yes I could have
shot many at well over 100 yards, but why?
If you do your part of the hunt, 400 yard shots
are simply not nessary, sure lots of places are not
the deep woods, but still, you can sneak to within a 100
yards of a antilope, out on the wide open range, so why not
a elk?
Every elk I killed where killed with a round ball and 80 grains
of fff, never had a need for anything different,
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A round ball in .540 diameter weighs about 230 grains. It will lose velocity and
tests we did at Friendship on the primitive range with that caliber indicate a 13" drop
at 130 yards using 120 grains of DuPont 3fg.Even with the long range English style
rifles Fleener has for even longer ranges,the chance of a wounded animal is high.
Stalking to get a one shot kill PLUS an adequate or more than adequate caliber is
the only sporting way to get the satisfaction out of a big game hunt.An injured animal
can be a dangerous animal with many unintended consequences to those not involved
with hurting it.
We have all heard or read about shots at astounding distances with a round ball and
tests verify them but the velocity is and energy is no longer there.
Bob Roller
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In my estimation, the only M-loader that would come close would be a .450 whitworth or Volunteer type, firing a 500 grain conical, But, for Hunting, this set -up should still not be used for much over 100 yards. (Ethics again)
Such rifles are very good at long range, but for target, not hunting.
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Unfortunately many States do not recognize .45 cal rifle as being able to take an elk sized animal. While I agree with this for a round ball rifle, it also restricts a rifle shooting a 500 plus grain slug.
Lots of buffaloes killed with Sharps rifles firing a 500 plus grain slug out of .45 cal rifles.
Fleener
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I think open iron sights make this a non starter then add a round ball and you better just forget it. With a laser range finder and a modern cartridge rifle with a scope and with a lot of practice before I go in the field plus ideal conditions and a good rest I could probably make a good shot.
These days With open iron sights I wouldn't take a shot with any type of gun over 75 yards and, I'd have to have a real good rest. In my youth I shot deer off hand out to 125 yards with iron sights, not something I'm capable of or would try now.
These plastic stocked scoped inline ML's shooting conicals are good to 250 yards if you have a range finder and a good rest. You'd still have to have a lot of practice time under your belt to consistently shoot well enough before you attempted that shot.
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Learn to hunt,,,,,close.. Fire power will never make up for close,,, I hunted archery before B/P.40 yards max,range,,,HUNT CLOSE.
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I've hunted for elk for over 60 years. I never took a shot over 75 yds. Most were much closer.
Is 400 yds as close as you can get?
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I think open iron sights make this a non starter then add a round ball and you better just forget it. With a laser range finder and a modern cartridge rifle with a scope and with a lot of practice before I go in the field plus ideal conditions and a good rest I could probably make a good shot.
These days With open iron sights I wouldn't take a shot with any type of gun over 75 yards and, I'd have to have a real good rest. In my youth I shot deer off hand out to 125 yards with iron sights, not something I'm capable of or would try now.
These plastic stocked scoped inline ML's shooting conicals are good to 250 yards if you have a range finder and a good rest. You'd still have to have a lot of practice time under your belt to consistently shoot well enough before you attempted that shot.
He won't be using a scope in Colorado unless he has a disability or hunts the rifle seasons.
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Funny, my most local pals who have brought home a few Colorado Elk, at least one trophy bull, do it all with modern archery equipment.
I don't know their average shot, but they hunt public lands and bring home the elk. Perhaps shorten up your range.
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Seriously?
Elk at 400yards?
You obviously have little idea about ballistics.
Ethics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The fun of the hunt is getting close. I always hope for powder burns on the hide.
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I am a long range target shooter. 1000 to 1200 yards. We shoot B.P single shot cartridge rifles, AND B.P muzzleloading rifles. Precision iron sights are as important as the rifles, and I can say that there are very very few shooters with the experience to be capable of calling a shot on an elk /moose at 400 yards with absolute certainty under field conditions. I have seen new shooters come out and go through 50 rounds without hitting the target. Our local club has a 300 yard range and many shooters fail even with scoped modern rifles. My opinion is , if you are asking this question......you definitely shouldn't be shooting at that range. Sabots especially, are bad since they are usually coupled with pistol type bullets .
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Since you say most of your shots are beyond 300 yards, I'll guess that you already have some experience with long range hunting. Just no experience with hunting with roundballs.
In short roundballs have a pathetic ballistic coefficient. The B.C. of a .54 ball is 0.079. If you use stout charges of about 120 grains of FFg powder you'll get velocities right around the 2000 fps mark. But by 100 yards that velocity is down to 1100 fps. The maximum point blank distance with that kind of B.C. is something like 125 yards (for a deer).
So a .54 ball could hit a target between 300 - 400 yards, but the trajectory would be such a lob and the ball would be coming in at such a steep vertical angle I don't know if it would be within the error-factor of today's rangefinders.
Furthermore, that .54 ball that started from the muzzle at 2000 fps only has 675 ft-lbs by 100 yards. By 300 - 400 yards it would be like shooting an elk with a .380 auto.
You can compensate for this by going with larger calibers, such as .72 caliber or bigger, but you are then getting into custom made barrels and guns. Not too mention powder doses that are approaching a buck a shot. And recoil . . . and gun weight. . . etc.
If you really, really wanted to kill an elk at those distances with a flintlock I'd say you should
get a custom made barrel with rifling similar to the old civil war sniper guns. Fast twist, .451 caliber, and a long heavy slug of 450 grains or more. You can get great accuracy with those. But they still will be approaching the target from such a severe angle that small errors in distance judgement will translate to misses (or worse, wounding). The accuracy demands of a civil war sniper are not the same as a hunter. A gut-shot colonel is perfectly fine, since nobody is worried about tracking him. While walking shots onto target you can land several shots in the vicinity of a cannon crew without scaring them off.
I don't think you need to be lectured about ethics - you just need to know about the ballistics of a roundball. Make your decision from there.
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Sorry I was so blunt.
Snapper was pretty much spot-on with his post.
A good conical (I would personally NEVER consider any sabot) in a flat-nosed hollow point pure lead 450 through 650gr. bullet of groove diameter, .45 for lighter, 50 through .54 for heavier
if used in a rifle I was very well familiar with, and had practiced extensively at 100 through 500yards in 50 yard intervals and had a sight that could be regulated for each of those
ranges - (yes, such a sight is available but has no place on an even remotely PC ML). I might consider such a shot, perhaps on a bedded bull - again- ranged with a laser unit, and good sights
calibrated for the range - it is possible, but
as oldtraveller noted, 2 steps with exactly the correct hold turns into a gut shot, shot through the hind legs, or hitting a cow, or one of a number of other
problems\errors - other elk, not seen at the time.
Who is spotting the shot - has to be out of the smoke, to positively tell if a hit & where it is hit, if it is a hit. ML 'bullet' when striking large game, usually makes no more than a slit that usually
does not bleed. High lung hit might not bleed for a 400yard run.
Usually an exit is necessary for any decent blood trail. I'm sorry, the requirements, as far as I'm concerned, are too strenuous for 98% of modern rifle shooters, let alone ML bullet shooters.
Round balls, in my opinion are totally out of the equation. All of this is rather elementary for me - stalk closer or don't shoot. Out to 150yards with a decent load and .54 or larger round ball, a
bullet shooting ML has absolutely no advantage.
I've seen that myself.
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I can't help myself. I have seen moose at a measured 400 yards. They look small at that distance. What metallic sight are you able to find that will give you a decent chance of hitting the kill zone ? As I said before, more folks talk about taking animals at that distance than actually do it. From what I see at our club, I don't believe your average hunter can do it with any certainty. And that is with a scoped modern rifle. So, my message is....get your rifle, and then take it to the range and have at it at 100 and then 200 yards, and then get back to us.
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Colorado Muzzle loader elk regs show 54 cal round ball minimum.
Can a flintlock be built to shoot a round ball 400yds?
many of our shots are taken over 300 yds.
What is the max range on any round ball?
maybe I should just make a flinter to shoot modern sabots?
THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!
Administrators forgive I need to mention some brass suppository stuff here, its where the data is.
Part of the challenge of hunting with 18th-19th c ML designs is getting close enough to make the shot. Almost anyone with a decent "modern" can shoot critters at 400-500 yards if they can shoot well enough. The round ball is a 150 yards proposition and then it takes some knowledge and experience. Where as I have a brass suppository rifle that is capable of head shots at 400, with a RB rifle I would not shoot an Elk over 150 and then only under "perfect" conditions. Have you ever shot a flintlock? If not you need some practice in all probability. However, you could make a RB rifle that will shoot fairly well at 300-500 yards. If the ball is about 1" in diameter and the gun weighs 25 pounds to perhaps 50 (see the link below). But you still are dealing with a lot of problems. Drop is incredible compared to modern rifles and so is wind drift. So the bottom line? Hunt like the critters can shoot back, if they don't see you and you have the wind you can get a shot with any luck at all. Unless everyone shoots at them from 400-600 yards and have them hyper vigilant you should be able to get within RB range with some work. In most instances Elk are not as tough to get on as hay field whitetails or especially Antelope. The second choice is ambush if you know their habits in an area. Calling is another option. You can shoot sabots if you want but you are still going to be limited to less than 200 IMO since they are designed to shoot short bullets with poor ballistic qualities and velocity is low compared with the typical brass suppository Elk rifle. Elk can be tough and can pack a lot of poorly placed lead away so you need to get close and place the shot. If I can and often have, gotten into traditional longrifle range of Antelope so can you. But you have to know the area and understand how to use terrain for concealment. Low crawl helps too. I have shot at elk at 400+ with a BPCR, iron target sights. Gun pre-sighted on the spot, I am experienced, shooting from sitting X sticks and I STILL missed. As the set trigger broke the sight veered ever so slightly and the bullet went over her back. A heavy conical is not a good answer either. Long bullets in a ML? At 400 yards with a heavy bullet a 15 yard mistake in distance can cause serious shot placement issues. For example the brass suppository gun I described the missed shot at the Elk with 100 gr of 1.5f moves a 530 gr PP bullet at 1370 MV. According to Hornady's ballistic calculator with a guessed .35 BC it falls 120" between 400 and 500 yards. So at the remaining velocities involved one MUST have the EXACT range, have the proper sights and KNOW where to set them for a given range and weather condition. So to quote an old time African hunter, "get as close as you can laddie then get 10 yards closer". With iron sights at 400 yards a change in the LIGHT, a cloud covers the sun, can produce a miss. Mirage is another factor. Its just not that easy under field conditions even for highly experienced shooters.
https://history.army.mil/news/2013/130325a_amusettes.html
BTW "1/2 sheet of paper" at the time of the Revolution would be about the max size of the kill zone of an elk. A full sheet would make about four 8 1/2x11 "modern" sheets.
Dan
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What is the max range on any round ball?
Just so you know, there is a difference between maximum range and maximum effective range. The former has to do with distance and the latter to do with energy.
Hatcher's Notebook has an article and chart giving the maximum range of various round balls.
I would have to go back and read it, but I think Hatcher was guessing about the maximum ranges and gave them too much range. People I know who did some actual testing with a 54 RB rifle could not get the ball to 1000 yards with any elevation they tried. Larger balls weighing 3-8 times what a 54 does may carry farther.
According to the ballistics calculator on my phone a 50 RB at 1800 fps falls 3800 inches going to 875 yards. 6712 going to 1000.
Dan
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Kinda off thread.... One thing is, most folks can't estimate distance of an animal well, or a tree, etc. The old timers could. . It is fun to test yourself and friends. Can you get within 10 yds. at a 200 yds?. Most livestock guys admit they have a difficult time determining the size/wt. of a pig, or steer at distance, unless there is something for scale, as a fence. And they are pros.
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Years ago our gun club put in a new long range target backstop. Two new members came to use it. One argued it was 400 yards, the other said it was 500 yards. They asked how far is was, 400 or 500 yards.
They couldn't believe that it was 300 yards! This is in Eastern PA. Good thing we don't get much long range shooting in PA.
Ken
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Kinda off thread.... One thing is, most folks can't estimate distance of an animal well, or a tree, etc. The old timers could. . It is fun to test yourself and friends. Can you get within 10 yds. at a 200 yds?. Most livestock guys admit they have a difficult time determining the size/wt. of a pig, or steer at distance, unless there is something for scale, as a fence. And they are pros.
I used to be pretty good at it. Then I lost the sight in my right eye, had to learn to shoot left handed and my depth perception got horrible. Pretty much why all my shots are close now. Although I never took long shots with a muzzleloader. It just seemed wrong in the spirit of using one.
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Dan,
Thanks for mentioning some of the problems one faces at long range even with a conical bullet, especially estimating distances and how small errors change drop significantly.
Another item I'd worry about is flight time. When I shot 1000 yds the flight time was over 3 seconds. I don't know the flight time of a 540 bullet at 500 yds, but it would still be huge compared to modern unmentionables. Maybe pull the trigger, count to 2 mississippi, and wonder how far the elk moved in that amount of time. Even if you estimated distance well, you still have a gut shot animal. I think PRB at 500 is unthinkable.
Quigley shot offhand and the bucket wasn't moving. But then we aren't Quigley either. ;)
Regards,
Pletch
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Well, on camera I can be as good as Quigley too. Especially if the camera doesn't have to show me and the bucket all in the same frame. :P
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400 yards with a roundball is laughable at best. I have seen my uncle take a moose in Manitoba at a lasered 157 yards with a .54 caliber roundball from a T/C Renegade. It broke a rib going in on the near side, clipped the top of the heart and punched a hole through both lungs and stopped under the hide on the far side. It walked about 30 yards and stumbled over dead. Round balls tend to penetrate more as velocity drops (to a point). It flattened out a little on the rib going in. This one penetrated about 3 feet of moose. I think the shot was a bit long to take but he also knew his rifle like the back of his hand. I don't think I'd have taken the shot, but he did and it worked. It was about 6 years ago.
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Y'all realize we're just talking to ourselves. The OP hasn't ever before or since posted to this forum but for this one, a full four days ago.
And the question was a little "far fetched". :P
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Lol......I see that now.
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Well, on camera I can be as good as Quigley too. Especially if the camera doesn't have to show me and the bucket all in the same frame. :P
Hey... I taught Quigley to shoot at long range.
Dan
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Dan,
Thanks for mentioning some of the problems one faces at long range even with a conical bullet, especially estimating distances and how small errors change drop significantly.
Another item I'd worry about is flight time. When I shot 1000 yds the flight time was over 3 seconds. I don't know the flight time of a 540 bullet at 500 yds, but it would still be huge compared to modern unmentionables. Maybe pull the trigger, count to 2 mississippi, and wonder how far the elk moved in that amount of time. Even if you estimated distance well, you still have a gut shot animal. I think PRB at 500 is unthinkable.
Quigley shot offhand and the bucket wasn't moving. But then we aren't Quigley either. ;)
Regards,
Pletch
TOF for a heavy 45 cal BP driven bullet is about 1.5 seconds to 500. Modern runs about 1/2 that.
Dan
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Y'all realize we're just talking to ourselves. The OP hasn't ever before or since posted to this forum but for this one, a full four days ago.
And the question was a little "far fetched". :P
He likely got discouraged if the question was real.
It was a good question and the discussion informative none the less.
It brings into focus, for example, the shooting of General Fraser at 300 yards at Second Saratoga. And just how skilled some of Morgan's Riflemen were.
Dan
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You don't think it was just a lucky shot Dan? Ever look at a human at 300yds. How could you accurately line up open sights on such a small target?
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Y'all realize we're just talking to ourselves. The OP hasn't ever before or since posted to this forum but for this one, a full four days ago.
And the question was a little "far fetched". :P
He likely got discouraged if the question was real.
It was a good question and the discussion informative none the less.
It brings into focus, for example, the shooting of General Fraser at 300 yards at Second Saratoga. And just how skilled some of Morgan's Riflemen were.
Dan
Certainly Dan. There's a lot of good info here for those who haven't really studied long-range roundball and BP. Thanks for your contributions.
I'm under the impression that the game dept of CO would have made the caliber requirement a tad larger if they had thoughts hunters would be lobbing 'em in from 400.
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They raised it last year to .54 for elk. I'm sure they feel that requiring open sights would limit long shots. Little did they know what goes through the minds of hunters.
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They raised it last year to .54 for elk. I'm sure they feel that requiring open sights would limit long shots. Little did they know what goes through the minds of hunters.
I don't see 300yards as being MUCH a problem, Pete. When Taylor built my .69, we put a 3-leaf express sight on it. The last leaf was filed for out 300 yard gong, which was 30" round.
That rifle had no trouble hitting that plate, offhand by all of the guys who tried. I could never get anyone to fire a second shot, though, 165gr. 2F does kick a bit. LB hit it, as well as Taylor
and Neil too, iirc. It was not much of a trick- fair hold and sight picture with the front bead - boom*************************clang.
At our Blackwater range, we have 14" x 16" AR500 plates hanging at 20, 300, 385 and 500 metres. I have hit the 300 meter (328.1yards) plate with my 14 bore rifle several times and even
managed that with a .577 M1861 Enfield with patched round balls.
Being able to use actual sights set for THAT range helps immensely.
Thus, trajectory becomes less of a problem - it does, however, reduce the height of the target due to the descending angle of the 'shot'.
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Yes, i'm sure some can be consistent enough to chance a shot that long.
I'm from the school of getting close being more fun. :)
If the smell of an elk doesn't curl the hairs in my nose. I'm too far away.
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They raised it last year to .54 for elk. I'm sure they feel that requiring open sights would limit long shots. Little did they know what goes through the minds of hunters.
...
Thus, trajectory becomes less of a problem - it does, however, reduce the height of the target due to the descending angle of the 'shot'.
isn't this what they call the "lobbing it in" effect? ;D
Also, that's targets, righto-bang them gongs. But did you take many moose or other large ones out at 300 or 400?
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I think Daryl was responding to the Fraser reference ie shot at 300 yards. In war, a hit anywhere is deemed a success, whereas you need to be a bit more specific when hunting :)
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Exactly - clanging gongs. Now, I would put a wolf in the same category as the in-battle shot
and most certainly would take that, at 300 or 400yards.
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Exactly - clanging gongs. Now, I would put a wolf in the same category as the in-battle shot
and most certainly would take that, at 300 or 400yards.
Full agreement. I do the same with not so Wile E. coyotes.
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No kidding. Any hit on a coyote is good.
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Coyotes...yes ! My friend and I used to have fun going after groundhogs at long distances with our .54 and ,62 flinters
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I view coyotes as interactive targets..... nothing more. The only reason to spend money on researching them is to find better ways to kill them..... I suspect that, although some folks out West are strapped by the snow flakes and tree huggers, they feel the same way about wolves.... The three s's apply.....
JMHO
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Lol. With the trajectory of a round ball at 400 yards It would fall between the shoulder blades.
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Using round ball for taking game at 400 yards is absurd. To even take a shot at a game animal is unethical to say the least.
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Hunt smarter..............not further!
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As long as someone brought up General Fraser - here's what WIKIPEDIA had about that episode:
Murphy scaled a nearby tree, took careful aim at the extreme distance of 300 yards, and fired four times. The first shot was a close miss, the second grazed the General's horse, and with the third, Fraser tumbled from his horse, shot through the stomach. General Fraser died that night.
This highlights the differences between hunting and combat. 1) General Fraser did not flee after the first miss - not likely to happen with game. 2) General Fraser was gutshot. Is there anyone here who thinks gutshooting game is something to promote? 3)Murphy did not need to recover General Fraser.
Even with contemporary snipers - the longest recorded kill still involved a couple misses leading up to the hit. Generally speaking with hunting you need to make the first shot count.
Of course, Wikipedia being what it is - leaves us wondering about the fourth shot. ???
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General Fraser never thought to duck?
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Using round ball for taking game at 400 yards is absurd. To even take a shot at a game animal is unethical to say the least.
you mean, "at that range" is unethical.
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Using round ball for taking game at 400 yards is absurd. To even take a shot at a game animal is unethical to say the least.
you mean, "at that range" is unethical.
Yes Daryl I forgot to put at that range in the second sentence, Sometimes my fingers are way slower than my mind. Sometimes they have a mind of their own.
As far as Tim Murphy goes. Check out " the Myth of Timothy Murphy, Journal of the American Revolution March 25, 2013"
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Over 50 responses to "Eagle92" 's one and only post and nothing from him so far. I think we've been had ::)
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I agree with Bob, where is the original poster? The one thing that is clear, after 3 pages of response, is that it comes down to 2 things( IMHO); ETHICS and ability.
Mark
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Or it could be genuine misunderstanding of external ballistics, nothing wrong with ignorance so long as a fella is ready to learn and shed some of it. Lots of things I don't know about.
Going to be a long Winter if this keeps up.
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I agree with Bob, where is the original poster? The one thing that is clear, after 3 pages of response, is that it comes down to 2 things( IMHO); ETHICS and ability.
Mark
Lemme refine it a bit further Smokin, one thing, Ethics!
Robby
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I "might" try that shot at a 400-yard distant Elk, but only if my 60-mm mortar is working right.
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Folks, last call on this topic. So far the nays are carrying the day. Seems like a good time to wrap it up.
Going forward let’s remember to discuss the topic, not the original poster or subsequent contributors. Imagine it’s a face to face conversation with somebody who is also interested in longrifles.
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Learn to hunt,,,,,close.. Fire power will never make up for close,,, I hunted archery before B/P.40 yards max,range,,,HUNT CLOSE.
I heard one old guy say he would get so close he'd have to step back to shoulder
the rifle.Sights on the long rifle are not for long shots and even with Creedmoor
Long Range Muzzle Loader sights the round ball at 400 would have shed most of the
wallop needed for a one shot kill.
Bob Roller
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My grandad who was a hunter his entire life always said long range hunting shots were mostly taken by hunters that didn’t know how to hunt.
Hungry Horse
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My grandad who was a hunter his entire life always said long range hunting shots were mostly taken by hunters that didn’t know how to hunt.
Hungry Horse
I've taken a lot of flak for saying that over the years. I'd also add that long shots are shooting and close shots are hunting.
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Wow!
Thanks Guys!!!
Sooooooo, to bring all of this together.....
1- A 400 yd round ball gun CANNOT be built.
2- Maximum range for a round ball is under 200 yds
3- Study the long range guns at friendship in the spring.
4- Take a little more of a moderator role to keep discussion on topic, but this discussion is not for me alone.
Your replys have not fallen on a ghost.
I really appreciate everyone's input, but I have found that I don't learn much with my mouth open.
I wrote and deleted 3 replys when I got my poor little feelings hurt.
I see no reason to defend my hunting ethics, marksmanship, or stalking ability. I know what I know, I'm here to find out what you know and you have given me that with great efficiency. This forum is a great place to get great answers gleaned from lifetimes of experience.
I originally posted this in the gun building section more or less for the long range shooters.
For many reasons and (situations, on this hunt that I don't particularly like being forced in to) I need to build something that will get me maximum effective range for that "last day of the trip, it's now or never, this is what we practiced all summer for" shot.
I would much rather pop one at 75yds on opening morning knowing that what ever happens on impact is 100% a product of my prowess, buck fever, or hangover.
I don't need to build something that will fit nicely into one of the matches, I just need to satisfy the game warden that my rifle is legal. (and it has to be a flinter because they are friggin' magic)
This being said it really opens up the options to blend new technologies with the beauty and character of the old.
It also opens the door to abominations like camo synthetic stocked flintlocks...... geeeez, who in the?...... what the?....
An improvement to any system in a gun should improve accuracy.
Some things I have been kicking around that are WAY outside the norm are:
-Working in a jeweled trigger. (This may be the hardest.)
-Bedded free floating barrel
-Very fast twist, match grade barrel. sub 1/2 MOA is very achievable.
-Possible solid copper slugs, making the projectile longer, increasing the BC. Of course this would have to be wrapped with something, whether it be pillow ticking or Teflon.
Again, Thanks to everyone for your time and experience.
Every comment is appreciated
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If you are serious about this long range hunting idea, [ free floated barrel, fast twist barrel, copper slugs etc ] there a a couple of things that need be remembered. 1st, copper is lighter than lead, so will lose velocity quicker, unless you make it longer for the caliber. Long range round ball shooters typically use larger calibers for this same reason. Or...you need to go to a bullet type projectile ie 500 + gr .45 caliber Muzzle velocity is limited to an extent. Even with the highly evolved long range guns of the day, it was absolutely necessary to know the distance because of the trajectories involved. Sights are also a limiting factor. So...a range finder is required IMO, and beyond 200 yards, I'd want a scope. Something else to consider , which hasn't been mentioned before, is the lack of a fast follow up shot, should you need one. I just don't think that "long range " hunting is practical with the historical muzzleloaders we love. Even the inline folks limit their advertising to 200 yards. Anyway, if you go ahead with this, I hope you have a place to practice a lot, before you head to the field
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Thanks Bob
Yes, we all have rangefinders. You are right. Absolutely necessary.
Was thinking copper because you can get a longer projectile for the same weight increasing your BC
Scopes are great, no doubt, but must be open sights pr CO rules.
Follow up shots must be practiced almost as much as shooting itself.
I have a great range. Around 1.5 miles!
Shot almost 500 rounds from my 300wm in preparation. Now some of that was playing the how far can you go game, but our record was a milk jug at 800yds. 600yd milk jug almost every shot, 400yds off of sticks. 300yds off hand. Most of the time. Many scenarios practiced. All scoped
Now this much practice may not be reasonable with a muzzleloader but dry fires are great practice too.
And.... you might as well cut those distances in half for hunting with thin air, heavy breathing, buck fever exc.
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Eagle#92
Men shoot 1,000 yard competitions with ML and BPC guns.
Those guns exist for target shooting, not hunting. They have done all the stuff you need to get a projectile that far--but it's not hunting. The pill only has to punch the air and the paper.
If you want to study 1,000 yard target guns, that's fine. I only know a little about those, I'll leave that to those that do. There may be the "tech" you're looking for, all laid out and ready to go. But it's not hunting. It's no more hunting that going to the bush with a class3 and standing behind a shower of scattered shots.
I'm all for you having a great long distance BP gun. Get good with it. See what it takes. Do some penetration tests. Then decide if you want to harass any Elk with it.
A buddy of mine has a 400-yard hunting gun (possible with practice), but it's based on a John Moses Browning cartridge. And it darn well won't qualify for BP season (nor discussion here). It's not a flinter! ;D We're quite limited on the discussions of tech that does not apply to our timeframe at this forum. Helps keep us on topic.
Hope you get the "opening day" elk at modest range. Launching a last day "anything goes" shot might not display good sportsmanship, some might say it's disrespectful to the magnificent elk.
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I know that long range shooting is a sport in itself and a guy can get addicted to it. I'd prefer guys do it for target competition than hunting. If an animal has to be shot. Do it on coyotes.
Elk deserves a more humane shot. The DOW took a survey on elk and came up with the average distance they were killed was under 150yds. This included the rifle season. I'm sure if it was just muzzleloaders the distance would be much shorter.
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I should have mentioned that I built a long range [ .45 cal 1 in 18 twist barrel ] flintlock rifle just to see what it was capable of , and shot it in the 1000 yard B.P. matches I used paper patched bullets , a false muzzle to aid in loading the bullets consistently , and a drop tube for the powder [ measured to the grain and stored in vials ] and figured out a couple things .
1st- getting a consistent ignition is imperative to accuracy. 2nd- obtaining the consistency necessary is difficult.
My best results were out to 600 yards, although I did get half decent results out to 1000 , with the greatest variation being elevation. Considering all the variables, a flintlock isn't as accurate at long distance as a percussion . That's my view. Trying both stainless steel, and beryllium type vent liners, I needed to change them every 20 or so shots or else elevation became inconsistent. Humidity was another variable that really affected ignition. Fun and enjoyable when target shooting, but I have to stress again, I firmly believe that a flintlock firearm is at most a 200 yard hunting gun. Build what you want and then take it out and shoot it. You'll most likely come to the same conclusion.
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Wade:
You are 100% right.
the "hunt" explained.....
We don't like hunting this way, but.....
It is a classic coyote hunt.
High Desert NO trees on the ranch. none, tallest sage brush,24"?
We have deprivation tags. We aren't allowed in the pinion trees to stalk like any self respecting hunter.
2-3 trucks, 2-3 hunters and a guide per truck.
16,000-20,000 acres of cactus rocks dirt and scrub.
glass until someone sees a small herd and make a move on them.
Shots often taken off of the truck bed
Have watched a 300yd duck walk to hands and knees stalk to get the herd to 300yds where all the elk were watching nervously. took 2 bulls out of that group.
hoping to switch it up and get a tag that will get us into the forest. there is so much elk sign on the mountain you have to wear boots because the bull $#@* is so deep.
Even if this isn't exactly the way we would like it, it is highly productive. An 8 member party usually tags out in 2 days.
Bob:
Thanks for the input on your long range rifle. I have been snapping pix of those trying not to drool.
humidity eh? I bet so. It is waaaaaay drier out there.
a watered down version of that would be ideal. something light enough to be shouldered.
I may have said 400yds because it would be nice, but I think 300yds would be plenty to get the job done.
We practice for white tail out to 120yds. After I get done with my experiment on how to almost seal up a pan for torrential rain hunts, I will move to 200yd fun.
What ever happens, it's not going to happen with an inline.
Thanks again!
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... After I get done with my experiment on how to almost seal up a pan for torrential rain hunts, I will move to 200yd fun...
"sealing" the pan is usually done with grease or tallow, a proven "technology". carry on.
Also, we has a current thread on the topic: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52108.0
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Wow!
Thanks Guys!!!
Sooooooo, to bring all of this together.....
1- A 400 yd round ball gun CANNOT be built.
Yes it can, It is called a cannon!
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Alacran:
By my interpretation of the CO ml requirements, a cannon cannon should perfectly legal.
Genius!
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My grandad who was a hunter his entire life always said long range hunting shots were mostly taken by hunters that didn’t know how to hunt.
Hungry Horse
I've taken a lot of flak for saying that over the years. I'd also add that long shots are shooting and close shots are hunting.
Exactly the reason I hunt big game, but when we go for gophers, we go shooting gophers. It's all about the range. There is not much more fun to be had, than to call a big bull moose in to within 15 feet of you, whether you are hunting moose or just playing with them.
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Agree on calling Moose. I always had more fun calling moose than elk. When you call a big bull in you dont look at him you look up at him. ;D :)
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My grandad who was a hunter his entire life always said long range hunting shots were mostly taken by hunters that didn’t know how to hunt.
Hungry Horse
I've taken a lot of flak for saying that over the years. I'd also add that long shots are shooting and close shots are hunting.
Exactly the reason I hunt big game, but when we go for gophers, we go shooting gophers. It's all about the range. There is not much more fun to be had, than to call a big bull moose in to within 15 feet of you, whether you are hunting moose or just playing with them.
I agree with that. Long range coyote hunting is fun.
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Eagle 92, you seem to be drawn to only the lock itself, where most seek the entire package - patched round ball, blackpowder, the accoutrements, etc.. Could you elaborate on this
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Eagle 92, you seem to be drawn to only the lock itself, where most seek the entire package - patched round ball, blackpowder, the accoutrements, etc.. Could you elaborate on this
His quest sounds to me like it's 100% motivated by a special hunting season (to wit: CO's M/L big game) and that he's ready to attempt anything to make any gun that fits the rules of that special season work,
by whatever extraordinary or non-traditional means possible, to attempt to fill a big game tag in that special season.
I could be wrong, but if you glance around you'll see that the OP has posted nowhere else on this site, and that's a truly difficult task for those interested in muzzleloaders for their own special goodness (that is once they come out of lurker status with that first post).
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Similar thing happened up here with the Primitive Moose Hunt. Many people bought cheap ml's just to get another month's hunting extension to hopefully fill their freezers.
They used conical slugs in round ball twist barrels then "graduated" to an inline gun when they were introduced, just so they could easily mount scopes. Ultimately, these "hunters" lost moose that eventually died when shot with tumbling (after impact) unstable bullets, as well as those shot (poorly) with jacketed pistol bullets caused the closure of that hunting season. The game branch would over fly the area find dead moose, then land and cut them open to find the bullets. They came to the conclusion ML's were not powerful enough to kill & retrieve moose. One of the officers told us (Taylor, Brad &myself) this sad story of lost moose, that happened every year. He also noted that most trucks checked that year, had 3 "hunters", sharing 1 bolt-actioned ML but also having a .30/06 or .300 mag "for wolves". He said "THAT IS THE LAST STRAW". There will be no special moose hunt next year.
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Hard to keep it pure.
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Sweeney
sorry about the slow response, this blog isn't alerting me when someone responds.
I really love most styles of guns.
I have found that for me, the flinters have some sort of magic that the cappers don't have.
I need a shorter gun in the southern IN woods, but I prefer the long guns.
I also prefer the round ball.
Love the accouterments, but.... I finally had to abandon my hunting pouch in deer season. The bag is 3 times bigger than the contents and has to go over a heavy coat. 3 tubes (this should draw some fire) and a short starter in one pocket, all the tools in a small bag in the other pocket.
As for the traditional hunting garb, doing my best to avoid that for now. Love it, want it, but it's $1000 to get dressed. Going to have moccasins made from this year's elk hide.
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Eagle 92, you seem to be drawn to only the lock itself, where most seek the entire package - patched round ball, blackpowder, the accoutrements, etc.. Could you elaborate on this
His quest sounds to me like it's 100% motivated by a special hunting season (to wit: CO's M/L big game) and that he's ready to attempt anything to make any gun that fits the rules of that special season work,
by whatever extraordinary or non-traditional means possible, to attempt to fill a big game tag in that special season.
I could be wrong, but if you glance around you'll see that the OP has posted nowhere else on this site, and that's a truly difficult task for those interested in muzzleloaders for their own special goodness (that is once they come out of lurker status with that first post).
Right on Wade!
This started as a simple question. Could a 400yd RB rifle be built? Nope!
Make it a slug gun, and Boy Howdy you'd better have your stuff together!
300yds slug should be doable if prepared, really prepared.
As for lurker status, In the past I have had buddies ask for parts exc. on here.
I have some pretty heavy hitters as my mentors/go to guys regarding most matters BP.
But when I come up with a screw ball question like this, they referred me to the "community" because they have little long range experience.
Thanks again to everyone!
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Eagle92 it's been my experience that the muzzle of a big bore muzzleloader pretty much blocks a deer size animal at that range. That and a R.B. Very poor trajectory, wind drift and loss of velosity. Plus penetration. But that's just my opinion. Others may very... I have to much respect for any game animal to risk wounding it just for the challenge. Oldtravler
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Eagle92 it's been my experience that the muzzle of a big bore muzzleloader pretty much blocks a deer size animal at that range. That and a R.B. Very poor trajectory, wind drift and loss of velosity. Plus penetration. But that's just my opinion. Others may very... I have to much respect for any game animal to risk wounding it just for the challenge. Oldtravler
I don't aim that way - I drop the breech, (or hold the front sight over the rear - same thing) and put the bead or blade on the 'target' to be hit. If you cover the game with the barrel, you don't know what it's doing while you are aiming.
Of course round ball at 400yards is not sane.
On the other hand, when my .69 was first built, in 1986, my third leaf was filed perfectly for the 300 meter 3" diameter gong. That's 328.1yards, rounded.
Taylor & LB hit it first attempt, but refused a second shot. The powder charge was 165gr. 2F GOEX, with the 482gr. ball. I only missed that gong once out of a bunch of shots (some rested), hitting the cross-piece 2x4. The ball knocked out a piece of spruce 2x4 board 6" long and 3 1/2" height off the back side. That was fairly impressive. It would certainly do for a deer at that range, but silly to attempt such a shot on an ungulate.
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Sweeney
sorry about the slow response, this blog isn't alerting me when someone responds.
I really love most styles of guns.
I have found that for me, the flinters have some sort of magic that the cappers don't have.
I need a shorter gun in the southern IN woods, but I prefer the long guns.
I also prefer the round ball.
Love the accouterments, but.... I finally had to abandon my hunting pouch in deer season. The bag is 3 times bigger than the contents and has to go over a heavy coat. 3 tubes (this should draw some fire) and a short starter in one pocket, all the tools in a small bag in the other pocket.
As for the traditional hunting garb, doing my best to avoid that for now. Love it, want it, but it's $1000 to get dressed. Going to have moccasins made from this year's elk hide.
Hey Eagle92
This is a forum, not the same as a blog, but yes there's no notification system. Do check out the search feature and the many years of experience already laid down here for others to learn from.
The guns _will_ shoot that far. But for targets not for critters. That's the difference, and it's a big one.
Don't think you cannot use a long gun in the deep heavy thick stuff. It's actually much easier to handle than a scoped sporter. There's never an optical thingie blocking a center-of-balance grip, there's never a telescope or sling hanging on brush/vines/briars, and the great length lets me use the gun as a staff in on steeps. That's something that is simply unsafe with short little guns. After a day or two in the woods with a nice LONG rifle, I've never ever wanted a shorter one.
The trick is to carry the gun long ways not crossways! ;D
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Sweeney
sorry about the slow response, this blog isn't alerting me when someone responds.
I really love most styles of guns.
I have found that for me, the flinters have some sort of magic that the cappers don't have.
I need a shorter gun in the southern IN woods, but I prefer the long guns.
I also prefer the round ball.
Love the accouterments, but.... I finally had to abandon my hunting pouch in deer season. The bag is 3 times bigger than the contents and has to go over a heavy coat. 3 tubes (this should draw some fire) and a short starter in one pocket, all the tools in a small bag in the other pocket.
As for the traditional hunting garb, doing my best to avoid that for now. Love it, want it, but it's $1000 to get dressed. Going to have moccasins made from this year's elk hide.
Hey Eagle92
This is a forum, not the same as a blog, but yes there's no notification system. Do check out the search feature and the many years of experience already laid down here for others to learn from.
The guns _will_ shoot that far. But for targets not for critters. That's the difference, and it's a big one.
Don't think you cannot use a long gun in the deep heavy thick stuff. It's actually much easier to handle than a scoped sporter. There's never an optical thingie blocking a center-of-balance grip, there's never a telescope or sling hanging on brush/vines/briars, and the great length lets me use the gun as a staff in on steeps. That's something that is simply unsafe with short little guns. After a day or two in the woods with a nice LONG rifle, I've never ever wanted a shorter one.
The trick is to carry the gun long ways not crossways! ;D
Wade is correct that this is a forum and not a blog but there is a way to notify the user when a new post is made to a topic. Look for the "Notify" button beside the "Reply". If you set this flag you will receive notification when a new reply is made to this topic.
Dennis