AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on December 12, 2018, 05:50:42 PM
-
Guys, now I’ve been doing some reading on what some call poor boys, others call southern mountains, some barn guns, and there’s plenty of other names, too. But by these words I mean plain, simple, and unadorned flintlock rifles.
Now some are saying that they were the most common types around in “them days”, as it were. The beautiful decorated guns that survive today were well taken care of they say, and the humble barn guns, well they were done “used up” and as many don’t survive today. But others, well they say they were NOT common, not at all, and most every rifle back then made were in fact not plain, and it would’ve been a very rare sight to see one without a complex patchbox, nose cap, side plate, etc.
So what’s the truth? What’s the story? :o
-Smokey
-
All depends on where and when.
-
My confused opion is that none of us were alive back then. So we can only base our knowledge on the remaining examples that exist today. Theirs books but the more you read as you have learned. The more different opions you will see.
Some builders of long ago we have but one or two examples of what they did. Other's we have several. We can only go by what evidence we have available to form our opinions. Good bad or otherwise. Let the games begin.
Oldtravler
-
I look at it like this, in 1963 Chevrolet built the Corvette, and Ford made the Falcon. Which one cost more? Which one was made for working people? Many more Falcons were made. Of the two what are there more of around today?
I would suggest that the buyers of both cars worked.
-
We also scavenged this country for metals during WW1 (maybe 2, I forget (oh yeah steel pennies). I used to have a copy of a letter sent out by the gov't begging for metal to help the war effort. I found it in an abandoned building.
And I'd say that such situations may have consumed some of the "marginal" arms of the long distant past. Say the guy has a couple of breechloaders and some old ratty barn gun and wants to do his patriotic duty by offering scrap for the war...
Plain Jane simply don't get as many dances as Pretty Polly.
Where "dances" equates pictures and prose and protected status.
:P
-
I have seen some very finely made, famous maker relic guns from the golden age that until restored, would seem ready for the scrap heap to the average Joe. I think the premise that fancy guns survived depends entirely on the idea that they are found looking like they stepped out of Kindig’s book.
-
I seem to see a lot of "barn guns" or "poor boys". I believe there's a lot of them still around but the guys that own them just don't show them around because they aren't much to look at and they figure nobody wants to see them. Take a look at Bill Ivey's book on NC rifles, lots of plain janes there.
But as Wade pointed out , the scrap drives of WWI & WWII gobbled up a lot of old muzzleloaders, both fancy and plain. Ever notice all the old buttstocks of the early fancy guns survived but without barrels or most of their mounts? Scrap drives.....You'll notice many of them are broke through right at the breach....grab the muzzle of the gun and give it the ol' ax swing and whack! out comes the barrel for the scap drive. The buttstock was so nice in many cases it was laid on a shelf somewhere for decades until "we" discovered it.
-
I had a friend bring a very nice buttstock of a S.C. rifle to show me. I’m sure it was built by Reid. He only had the buttstock and it was broken just as Mike has just described. When he was in college he found it sticking out of a trash can on the street. He said he searched for the rest, but it was nowhere to be found. It had a beautifully made and engraved patchbox.
Bob
-
Jim Webb has studied longrifles, especially Appalachian ones, for a long time. He shared with me that he's seen records of large shipments of "common man" rifles to the mountains. These batches were from both Salem, NC and Jamestown, NC. While both areas made some fine bespoke highly decorated guns, they apparently also shipped many unmarked plain rifles to the areas with less affluence in the day. That shook my mental picture of all mountain rifles being made by individual smiths in small shops back in mountain coves. It also reminds me that original sources are superior to modern "interpretations" and guesses. God Bless, Marc
-
Meshach Browning in his autobiography, (born in last quarter of 18th century and made his living in the Maryland / Virginia wilderness as a market hunter) talks about trading his plain gun for a fancy one and being disapointed in the performance of the new rifle. He also talked about borrowing his son's caplock when his flint rifle was out of order and loosing the caps in the snow during an encounter with a wildcat (if I remembercorrectly).
About time to read it again, one of my favorites.
-
Hi,
This particular discussion occurs a lot and often folks conflate time and place, which is what Rich was referring to. Simple plain jane mountain rifles are from the 19th century. Many of the plain long rifles from other regions, like PA are also from the 19th century when the fashion for carved rifles waned replaced by plain guns or those with lots of metal inlays. There are many carved and decorated colonial, Rev War, and golden age (late 18th and very early 19th centuries) guns that show a lot of use and during those periods some decoration was often applied to even the most humble objects. Why were so many decorated golden age long rifles converted to percussion if they were not being used? A rifle was a major investment and I believe if the owner could afford some decoration to make it distinctive, he asked the gunsmith to include it. I suspect that if someone could afford a more decorated rifle he would dump his plain gun in a heart beat. Look at Davy Crockett's alleged "first gun". Even rifles supplied to native Americans often were decorated. Consider the purported Paxinosa rifle that was discussed in this forum. It is also important to consider that colonial and Rev War period Americans were in general, more prosperous than their European counterparts. Things changed after the war as a series of bad recessions hit the new US. The flood to the frontiers in the 19th century also created a demand for trades allowing gunsmiths both skilled and mediocre to make a living. I believe it was tradition among the skilled and trained makers to do some decorative work regardless. However, as time passed those makers still steeped in European traditions of gun making died off leaving less formally trained makers in their wake. Carving is hard and time consuming, which likely is one reason it mostly disappeared. Metal inlays are quick and easy once you get the hang of it. Engraving is hard but most of the engraving (with some great exceptions) on later long rifles looks very crude and unskilled. Often the metal inlays were left blank. So, in my opinion, discussing plain versus decorated long rifles without context of time and place is not a very useful discussion.
dave
-
Thanks, all.
Having a plain rifle made for me by TVM now. Going to have fancy maple, but is browned iron mounted with no entry thimble, nosecap, no side plate, no patch box (but I did ask them to make a grease hole in the stock) and that’s about all. Lock will be a Chamber’s Late Ketland, so the lock is appropriate for the early 19th century.
My question is, is that a farby setup? In otherwards, could such a gun have existed in the old times?
-
Thanks, all.
Having a plain rifle made for me by TVM now. Going to have fancy maple, but is browned iron mounted with no entry thimble, nosecap, no side plate, no patch box (but I did ask them to make a grease hole in the stock) and that’s about all. Lock will be a Chamber’s Late Ketland, so the lock is appropriate for the early 19th century.
My question is, is that a farby setup? In otherwards, could such a gun have existed in the old times?
Although the web between the barrel and ram rod groove would have been much thinner than TVM's, it would have existed back in the day if it has Appalachia styling. There weren't many Iron mounted rifles made elsewhere.
-
I see. I am drawn to the plain guns, and was hoping mine would be close to PC.
-
Hi Smokey,
It will be a little chunkier than most originals but should be good to go for a 19th century rifle. I would not try to claim it represents the kind of rifles carried by the "over mountain boys" at Kings Mountain, however.
dave
-
The production rate of SMR’s is unknown, so there is nothing to compare when trying to calculate survival rate. But the shipping records, and production records of Northwest trade guns are known to some degree, and we know that although many were produced, very few survived. You must remember that the areas where these guns were produced suffered greatly during the Civil War, and after. This in itself could drastically reduce the survival rate of something as important as a firearm.
Hungry Horse
-
I see. I am drawn to the plain guns, and was hoping mine would be close to PC.
It will be fine. 99% of folks know nothing of correct architecture, and the thick web and plumpness will go unnoticed by nearly all. Besides, this probably only bothers me and nobody else. You should end up with a fine representation of an Appalachia rifle.
-
Agree you’ll be fine. Enjoy your new rifle. If or when you want to dive deeper, check out originals or new school plain, iron mounted rifles and find one that really does it for you. Then make or have that one made. It will cost 1.5-2x more though to have made.
-
Thanks so much, gang! You're helping set my mind at ease. Doesn't have to be perfect, but I wanted something a little nicer and more authentic than say a Traditions or Pedersoli. This is my first custom/semi-custom. Really I am not a reenactor, don't do impressions, but am just a humble shooter and hunter. But, I do want my "kit" to be a close to historically correct for an early 19th century southern woodsman.
-
Smokey if you ever get to one of the smr gun show. Let me know how many you see that are identical. You will see similarities between butt plates and trigger guards. But the stock similarities very. But I'm no expert. Maybe C.C.G. will chime in. He knows his southern guns. Oldtravler
-
SO, getting back to the initial topic....
Is one to presume that poor boy rifles were made in the same numbers as moderate to highly embellished rifles? I would, with no hard evidence to support it, say no. Thus, right out of the gate, there were fewer made so naturally fewer survived. The idea that future generations of owners did not see them as worth preservation is also something I can accept. I'm not ready to say the they were "used up" to any greater degree that any other gun. And I tend to feel that many remained and still remain, hidden away because the were or are not visually appealing. And there is also not a lot of value associated with them as measured against the embellished works combined with makers who are not as highly regarded....so they remain "just an old gun".
-
All depends on when and where. That can be VERY locale- and time-dependent. Like Berks County versus Lancaster County in the 1830s or so.
-
I will only comment on scrap collected during wars. Decorative wrought iron fences at one time were quite common especially in the South and the "wealthier" neighborhoods in many areas. Probably 90% of them were melted down during The War Between the States. Anything not critical for survival or genuine heirlooms was collected for the war effort. So again in WWI and WWII the same thing happened all over again. I imagine these were the black holes down which many old arms met their fate.
-
This link:
https://www.nber.org/papers/w13418
will take you to an interesting but lengthy article on the scrap drives of WWII and it will confirm the above belief that many historic articles went to the melting pot. But it also shows that the consequences of the drives had little effect on the "normal" flow of scrap.
"If the drives were important it was through their impact on civilian morale."
The positive impact on civilian morale was the same if one gave up great grandads old gun or the hood to the Model A laying behind the barn...just my personal opinion. Besides there really are a lot of old guns in the market if you think about it.
I still lean to think fewer were made thus fewer are around. It also seems fewer collectors relish in a original barn rifle vs the work of one the likes of Isaac Berlin, etc.. (Not to mention the gap in prices.)
-
We certainly can't deny that scrap drives gobbled up a lot of cool stuff, that makes what's left more valuable. In contrast to that is the story about cannon barrels, loaded up onto freight trains, at the end of the civil war that were refused by the U.S. govt. In order to survive the cancellation, many foundries in the North East re puddled the cannons and poured cast iron fencing. Many of the cast fences in the area were produced and peddled in the 1870's, and often replaced the wrought iron fences, consumed at the height of the war.
-
Can somebody explain me the difference between poor boys and Shimmel guns?
I understand the last are located only in the Blue Mountain region.
In an article by Thomas E. Ames he states Shimmels are "unfinished" while poor boys are "finished",
but I don´t get it....
-
History and Etymology for schimmel
Afrikaans skimmel gray horse, mildew, from Dutch schimmel; akin to Old High German scimbal ōn to become moldy, Middle Low German schimmel gray horse, mildew, Old English scīnan to shine
As you can see the word connects from Afrikaan to Dutch to German.
I'll guess the German immigrants of PA coined the description. Not to say it was "a moldy" gun but just not a gun of high style. IMO it is the same style as a poor boy or barn gun, jut a regional slant on the description.
-
In Germany a "Schimmel" is a white horse (my last horse was one).
Schimmel means also the green stuff that´s growing on rotten cheese ;)
I just cannot see the connection my (or your) German ancestors could have seen to any kind of gun...?
-
Language and local colloquialisms are odd things. Tons of examples where the meaning of a word or phrase becomes descriptive of something very much different from or other than the "real" defination of a word or the words used. Example: "cool".
"Definition of cool: moderately cold : lacking in warmth"
And yet when you walk into the showroom of your local Ford dealer and see that new Mustang you say, "That's COOL".
But how can a car be lacking in warmth or moderately cold?
It's a slang adaptation used with no connection at all to the "real" meaning of the words.
BTW, I have no German ancestors and there are certainly other ideas on how that term became descriptive of a rifle made in a the form of a "barn rifle". Come to think of it, what about barn rifle. Were they made in a barn?
Merry Christmas to all.
-
Chuck Dixon made the term “schimmel” known. He’s in Berks County where a good many plain rifles are found. He has a number of them displayed in his shop. Maybe a neighboring Amish friend described it as a schimmel and Chuck liked the term. That does not mean everyone in the area previously or currently called plain guns schimmels. There are no hard and fast rules written in a book and enforced such as “thou shalt not put any finish on thy schimmel” or “thou shalt keep thy schimmel in thy barn, that it be close at hand should a raccoon be found in thy hayloft.”
Instead of looking for rules or broad generalizations, tis often better to emulate specific original rifles.
-
I believe there was a K.R.A. article some years ago about schimmel guns. If I remember correctly it was linked to the Pennsylvania Dutch . There were other items they called schimmel also . There was some kind of common link. After Christmas I will see if I can find it.
-
I tend to look at this subject in the terms of economics and supply and demand and the time frame. As the lands opened up many people migrated to it as is pretty well documented. I think every family went with at least one gun. As expansion grew so did demand for these guns thus creating the need to produce the guns quickly and as cheap as possible to make more profit. Same as today with pretty much everything that is made.
I grew up in a southern coal mining community. I am old enough to remember my great grandfather who was born in the late 1800's and inherited his old single barreled shotgun. It was a Iver Johnson single barreled shotgun, this was the quality of gun that I grew up using. It had put many rabbit and squirrels on the supper table. If it had not been stolen from me I would still be using it today. I think that the barn or schimmel was this same type of gun and fit the same nich as the Iver Johnson, JC Higgens type guns did a few generations later. They were cheap and plain but did the job and did it well. Sears, Western Auto and several others had these guns made by the hundreds of thousands. You still see them today, most are so used that they are now dust collectors only but occasionally you see one that is in good shape. My point is that you don't see them very often. I think our plain rifles fit this mould.
I have enjoyed the thead, it has made me reminisce about my youth and trapseing in the woods with that old 36" barreled long Tom shotgun chasing Squirrels.
Merry Christmas to you all.
-
I think this is another case of several rifle styles from different areas getting lumped into one category. I defiately believe there is a relationship with the very plain Southern “poor boy” bare bones rifle, and the so called schimmel produced in other areas.
But, the Southern guns with full hardware, and things like lollipop tangs, fully developed buttplates, triggerguards, and other hardware, are not in the same category in my book.
I was told that the term schimmel was coined because these guns lacked finish, and being mostly from an area where maple was the principle stock wood, the gun would be white when new, and fade to gray as the wood got handled and aged. Hence the white, or gray, horse nickname.
Hungry Horse
-
This is to me a very interesting thread. I have a rifle hanging on my wall right now that was handed down in my family and definitely meets the accepted definition of a "poor boy": Simple, southern (99% sure of NC origin), iron trigger guard and ramrod thimbles, no butt plate, no entry thimble, no nose cap. Sadly the lock is missing but I'm guessing it was originally percussion as it doesn't have the tell-tale notch cut out of the top of the lock flat but since it does have a drum and nipple, it could maybe be original late flint. Barrel is 42" long and roughly .40 cal.
All that to say, for those that have them, can we see some of them here? I'll start with mine which is shown with the powder horn that was passed down with the rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/vZ1L9kF/IMG-4533.jpg) (https://ibb.co/72vrhKf)
(https://i.ibb.co/QKjLnxz/IMG-4534.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RD4fPJZ)
-
Picked up my Poor Boy this very morning at custom´s.
It´s a percussion, otherwise fits right in the category by my opinion.
Will take some pictures and post them at the weekend if someone wants to see them...
-
Yep Chris,we wanna see it. Even the simplest of these old guns have a certain presence of architecture many of us find pleasing. Cheers to all on this windy January night Dave 8) 8)
-
Now here is my poor boy. The lock is Golcher, otherwise I have no idea who made it.
(https://i.ibb.co/0yJsdH7/100-0135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qY1JPTS)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YBWbZ0/100-0136.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DgnzqrP)
(https://i.ibb.co/k3rskhJ/100-0137.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TKnxpH1)
-
Thanks, all.
Having a plain rifle made for me by TVM now. Going to have fancy maple, but is browned iron mounted with no entry thimble, nosecap, no side plate, no patch box (but I did ask them to make a grease hole in the stock) and that’s about all. Lock will be a Chamber’s Late Ketland, so the lock is appropriate for the early 19th century.
My question is, is that a farby setup? In otherwards, could such a gun have existed in the old times?
There's nobody alive today to answer this. Only thing people can go by today are the guns that are left. How many is there today ? How many was built ? Nobody knows how many! If you look in books today there's plenty of clunkers and how many was destroyed and the nicer ones were kept.
I'm sure the gun your having built today would have been a fine looking gun back in the day. Gun builders today has a mind set of thier own on how things "must be and was" . I find it myself hard to believe that all the old guns have a 3/16 web. Some say carving should not be more than a 1/16 high. This is all created by people today.
Your gun will be just fine and believable. Al
-
Here's mine, about as poor as they come. I believe this type of gun was pretty common. First off you'll notice the massive bark inclusion, even has a couple nails in it to hold some of the bark on. There is a nicely formed cheekpiece in all of that bark. Round barrel channel that I'm sure held an octagon barrel. I believe the trigger guard was brass as it has tabs inlet for lugs. It had set triggers and was probably percussion. It is well shaped and was obviously made by a man who was trained to build guns for a living. One of my favorite relics in my collection.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fold%2520poor%2520boy%2F001.jpg&hash=d2be416dba41f9ae30e298122fa46450c50bd49d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fold%2520poor%2520boy%2F002.jpg&hash=72d98a34d488d1a777f5b55a33ac1f7846af53c6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fold%2520poor%2520boy%2F003.jpg&hash=83a8a12db85acb17ca71941b2e8dd2afba8c0359)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fold%2520poor%2520boy%2F006.jpg&hash=d29deb0244d443d9f69cddbd5ffbb7c2be2cb905)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fold%2520poor%2520boy%2F007.jpg&hash=f427fae8bdcd980be57ce8d08d6550ee30add2a9)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fold%2520poor%2520boy%2F005.jpg&hash=bcb8d24064b829d6250b8038aeb20339b0fd04a9)
-
Mike I thought that was some of your early work!!!!
It does have nice lines I can see why you like it. I'm glad people over the years thought enough of it to save it. Well at least most of it. It would be fun to see what it looks like with a barrel and a lock.
-
haven't posted in a while but I keep following the forum...… I am inclined to say that the poorboys were very common and got used up and discarded/repurposed in many ways over the years. if you consider the commonality of the early lever action rifles and extrapolate that back into the desire of our early population to own firearms for many reasons, i'd say that there were plenty of common guns built and owned. the more ornate rifles were also more expensive and it stands to reason,...even today yet,....that the plain jane hunting rifle was most common in family arsenal. the fact that few still exist s simply because the value and exclusivity of owning such an arm was about on the same level as owning a water bucket....."good to have, but of little to no use when it is worn out, and the common man would be an idiot to spend hard earned money on a fancy water bucket,...."it doesn't carry any more water, it weighs the same as a fancy bucket and the fancy bucket is just as useless as a plain bucket, when it is worn out ".
the fact that there are more fancy ones still around is simply because those who owned them didn't use them like they would use a plain water bucket.
-
"They all got used up"! I have seen and heard this so many times...
The problem is, that they didn't all get used up. They do exist, you just haven't seen them. Which is understandable, since so many of us are extremely limited in what we can see. We are not privy to the guns held by collectors, the shows are a million miles away, and if it's not published somewhere, we'll never see it.
Well, they do exist from certain regions and time periods, and not so much from others... Did they get all used up from one region and not another? Or more likely, were they not there to begin with? As others have said, where and when. ;)
-
obviously they didn't "all get used up"...….it's a figure of speech. referring to the fact that there aren't many left because use and other circumstances have rendered them into scarcity. as said, considering their numbers during the peak of their existance, they have gone the same route as the model T.....there are still some around but only the least used and best cared and restored for still exist. this is the same with anything that manages to survive the times. woodworking tools are in that same boat....there are plenty of reproductions, but the real articles that are still in reasonably presentable shape because of slight use and/or good preservation, are fare and few between. as far as locality, just like wood working tools the eastern states are also the hot bed, simply because of population density . as the population moved west the density decreased and proportionatly, fewer examples survived.
-
Here's a plain one the took up residence with me recently. Was tagged as a southern Kentucky that reportedly spent part of its life in Middletown, Virginia. Who knows how spot on that is.
Slightly swamped barrel is currently 40 and 1/2 inches long and sports an extra set of empty barrel lug dovetails each 1 and 1/4 inches from the other ones. The stock does NOT have extra corresponding barrel pin holes. Possible second stocking of this barrel?
The lock is not marked but has indications that it started life as a flintlock.
Current triggerguard is at least the second one on this stock. There are other front and rear tab inlets visible around the existing guard.
No sideplate, entry thimble or buttplate. Forearm is a wreck and missing a couple inches at muzzle end.
I had this with me at the recent Lewisburg show and a sharp-eyed fellow recognized the worn barrel signature. He sent me down two tables from his and to compare it to a very clearly marked J. Dickert rifle. It was a nice match. Also lines up nicely to the pictured Dickert signature on RCA #68.
Appears to be an old one that made use of some even older parts.
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/SJGB1rX/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvH1q5z)
(https://i.ibb.co/1mTLPXB/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MC7st1K)
(https://i.ibb.co/HPt3TF6/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgNVYyK)
(https://i.ibb.co/55fLG4D/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BgSBc3D)
(https://i.ibb.co/tmTc28t/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yfc5kW1)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jQB2JH/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6r8GgR2)
(https://i.ibb.co/qpWv0Xv/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhyxDYx)
-
I think the general skill and ability of the maker had s good deal to do with if they spent time making higher end products or low cost guns. Jacob Young is more widely known for his three existing rifles stocked in maple, with brass mounts, and adorned with silver and gold inlays and overlays. His captured lid boxes were beautiful and his engraving is probably his finest trait. It wouldn't surprise me if there are a number of different items out there with Jacob Young's engraving.
The least known of Jacob's work is a walnut stocked, iron mounted rifle with a sliding woodbox that was found in Texarkana, Arkansas. It's the plainer of the guns, but it's still an impressive piece with graceful lines. One interesting note on the iron mounts is the fact that they are all touchmarked by Jacob.
Hard to know how many plain rifles Jacob made. We know his skill brought him in contact with some high paying customers and the majority of his known works are top shelf rifles. He obviously did some work that was affordable to the average customer, but it might be hard to say exactly the ration of plain to exquisite he built.
-
Davis Gun Collection In Claremore, Oklahoma.
In the late 1960's I used to visit there, when it was in the Davis Hotel. The bottom floor rooms and the 2nd floor rooms were full of weapons. There was a trail around the inside of the rooms, stacks leaned against the wall 3' deep. In one room there would be shotguns another ML. One room had wooden barrels full of ML barrels, stocks, locks, and other parts. The guns had been taking apart, never understood why. How many rifle barrels will fit in a big wooden pickle barrel. There was at least 30 barrels full of parts in that room. Not even going to describe cartridge guns.
In the restaurant on the walls were mainly "southern mountain rifles'. They were hanging upside down by chain around the wrist and forearm. The walls were probably 10', and the rifles went from the ceiling to about 6' from the floor.
I was told that during the depression he bought guns to help people live.
The items on display in the museum is very little of what was in the hotel, have been there.
Carney
Carney