AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: rich pierce on January 04, 2019, 06:41:00 PM
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Another auction buy with no provenance. Now a smoothbore but it was likely a rifle (double set triggers) of about .45 caliber. Interesting details include the iron buttplate nailed on, with the toeplate riveted to it, patent breech, and pewter nosecap. The exterior of the barrel has been over-zealously cleaned and refinished to almost new condition. Interesting lines; reminds me of an early plains rifle in architecture, but no cheekpiece. Any ideas on where this may have been made?
(https://i.ibb.co/5GmpPY4/73-E974-D9-AE96-4-E9-D-A463-53-CE134-D177-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ck0fjb3)
(https://i.ibb.co/371F4Ws/83-C3567-A-786-E-4-A72-8-FC8-CB0-E3-FE28032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dt4Mzkb)
(https://i.ibb.co/bgJwTLT/4-F60-CE39-2011-4-BE4-A01-A-A31-B236-CA26-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWmnRDR)
(https://i.ibb.co/JFrCVhT/72-ED00-C7-62-E4-4835-8921-246-ABDE438-C5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8z3W4b)
(https://i.ibb.co/zRYhDmd/CD19-C616-F8-A8-4-E9-D-8293-4455-F13791-D3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cFHcVyq)
(https://i.ibb.co/gzjJdfS/B34-C5233-5-F9-B-4-E81-BE17-FD8-FD166-B0-CA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bzWXFCs)
(https://i.ibb.co/X8WHgZJ/F6-E84-DE7-054-E-4-C87-BAAD-B58-B2-A747-D00.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rsQ9SGy)
(https://i.ibb.co/xMDp11S/4997-FE5-D-47-B9-49-EE-A0-FC-09-C3-E0421-D59.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZhVnBB6)
(https://i.ibb.co/yFRWbxk/2-C1-D5-B6-E-A964-44-EB-ACFE-22889-F0-CD1-CF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nM0z5K1)
(https://i.ibb.co/p30RpJW/927-B9-D69-185-B-4-A5-C-B19-E-DCA391-AB3-F85.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VvjQ82H)
(https://i.ibb.co/TwchVq8/CC104-FB4-1612-4-CF7-BD09-AA32-B54-BACBB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WHnKbpy)
(https://i.ibb.co/nC0MRJg/4-E79-ADD1-DFFB-42-BC-A737-0-C259250-A03-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQdjCJB)
(https://i.ibb.co/4g2kMM6/11-FD7-FFD-7197-4668-8-ED5-E64225-CEC052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBp255w)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZgxwKRG/F1-A2-EEAA-9-D50-41-B7-ABF1-69-A5-A4-A0-A091.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvXyLjQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/sJNc9sL/9152-BA8-F-4-E97-4350-BC1-F-64-D351-CA85-DC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VpzbYMX)
(https://i.ibb.co/2vXRsDW/A0-BD6788-8-D8-E-47-A3-B96-B-7-C8974463-C8-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lx4BJLY)
(https://i.ibb.co/LJjFf79/1-F2-EACD3-6-C73-4-E4-D-BD75-44-E2671-FEE57.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3M63HZS)
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That's a good looking relic.What is that stock made of? Looks like oak to me but
surely not.
Bob Roller
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Bob, it’s dark black walnut.
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Looks like a SMR made from a wrecked Leman. A gun club member has a half stocked Leman percussion with a smoothbore .45 cal. Barrel, and hardware like the brass pieces on this gun.
Hungry Horse
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8) 8)... does she have a patent breech,... ?? ... the snail instead of drum and nipple doesn't ring Southern to me,... wonder if it is hooked to tang or tang made onto the breech,..? ... I note Leman or similar trade gun,..... lock & trigger-guard look Leman, too,....
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Solid patent breech, not hooked. Do you think the buttplate and toeplate would have been off an original Leman? I don’t recall welded or brazed sheet metal buttplates on a Leman but the other parts sure could be from a wrecked gun.
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;) ;)... that could be, Rich,... I think most Leman style used brass fittings,... the nosecap is Southern,... I have seen a Tennessee made rifle with a barrel marked "LEMAN", but everything else was definitely East Tennessee made,....
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Another great find! Do you think that nosecap is original to the gun?
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Another great find! Do you think that nosecap is original to the gun?
Chris, I do think the nosecap is original to this stocking of the gun. I’m considering a Leman connection but the forged iron buttplate and pewter nosecap seem coherent together to me.
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I suspect the cap box was added in later years. Has the barrel been cut?
Dennis
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If I had to guess I would say the stock was original SMR and someone fitted a Leman barrel/breech/cap box/TG to it. More than likely the brass thimble as well.
Dennis
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Dennis you are probably closest to the mark. The barrel has been cut or recycled as it has extra underlugs dovetails on the underside.
The guns I am picking up are mostly study pieces for me as I’m particularly weak on SMRs or architecture of any narrow buttstock rifles and it will do me good to have a couple in hand. Plus I’m getting more and more interested in what folks used locally.
I really like the buttstock lines and buttplate on this one.
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There were rifles made with very similar stock architecture & side facings to this one in southeastern Kentucky. They were kind of a hybrid rifle of Kentucky and Tennessee details, and almost always had mixed brass and iron mountings. Usually both the butt plate and guard were iron, while the pipes were brass. Nose caps could be anything...brass, iron, and occasionally cast pewter. They also had the straight comb and toe lines exhibited on this rifle, and a nailed-on iron toe plate riveted to the tail of the iron butt plate. While I cannot say this is a Kentucky gun, I would heavily bet it came from the hill country region where southeastern Kentucky meets northern Tennessee. It was a poor area, and I always thought they recycled "parts and pieces" including old locks to build these guns. The mixed metal mountings seemed to go along with that general idea...heavier cast brass parts, i.e. butt plate and guard, had to be purchased and were more expensive than fabricating out of iron, while the smaller sheet brass pipes were easy to make and less costly than the cast brass parts...so were used on many of the guns. Why the cast guard on this one??? Probably one that happened to be available at the time of the build, for whatever reason. Shelby Gallien
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Thanks, Shelby! Interesting rifle for me; I had to bid on it. Would you put it at 1840-1860?
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Rich, I think that is a reasonable date range. Two other comments on your gun. The attractive brass capbox could be original, but I would guess it was added a little later during the working life of the gun when the owner had an extra dollar to spend. However, the wiggle engraved border is correct for the southern hill country area, so I believe it was mounted on the gun in that area. Also, the butt curvature on these rifles doesn't always fall in line with eastern guns' butt curvature. Some of the hill country people seemed to like more curvature at an earlier time than did the more populated areas. It may have been the result of many poor-boy style rifles from the area being stocked with an exaggerated heel on the butt, to provide extra wood for more wear since there was no metal butt plate heel to slow the wear when sitting a rifle down on its butt. The exaggerated heel resulted in a more curved looking butt, and some locals came to like their guns that way. I have a couple Pleasant Wilson full-stocked flintlock rifles from Clay County in southeastern Kentucky, beautiful and slim rifles with great stock architecture from 1820s to early 1830s, with substantial curvature in their butts. Shelby
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Rich - are the triggers double throw, or single throw? It would seem strange to have to set the triggers when shooting shot.
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Daryl, the triggers work set or unset. Seem pretty nice. I’m inclined to believe this one was a rifle about .52 then bored out during its working life. It’s about .54 smooth now, and not all that smooth, either!