AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Cades Cove Fiddler on January 06, 2019, 11:38:38 PM
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... Arnie Dowd and I have been discussing this unusual Iron Mounted rifle for a while, and we want to post here to possibly gain opinions and comments on her,... several of you have seen her at a couple shows, but we wanted to share her with a wider audience here,... I will post Arnie's text and include the great photos taken by Kenneth Orr ,.... enjoy,...!!!
"This very unique Iron-mounted Longrifle is truly a mystery as to who made it, where it was made, and for whom it was made. It is absolutely untouched, unrestored and original flint. It surfaced in NM about 1998, and I am fortunate to be the current caretaker.
Obviously, it has seen very long and very hard use and carried many miles, much of it on horse-back as the copper patch on the fore-end indicates as well as the crude copper, replacement barrel pin escutcheons, etc... Several ideas and theories have been made as to area of origin and maker, most credible is an associate of James McCamant of Virginia, since sharing several features of his work,...the two silver plates on the barrel being so worn that no inscription can be seen,...."
Here are a few features, as supplied by Arnie,....
......1 ...Indian engraved on the silver half-moon inlay...
......2 ...extensive use of brass overlay and inlay (esp. the bars on the federal shield of the "National Road" style patch-box abd the 8" toe-plate ....
3 ...abstract piercings on the lock bolt plate ...
......4 ...the bird head finial on the trigger-guard,...
......5....the swell area of the fore-stock at the ramrod entry pipe,...
......6 ...the wood in the pierced areas of the iron fittings are scooped out in an intentional way so as to make the iron "stand out",...
......7 ...the brass inlay below the cheek-rest rolls up and under the bottom of cheek-rest extending to meet the silver edge of the cheek,...
NOW,... the MOST, UNUSUAL UNIQUE feature,....never before seen,... the trigger-guard is "hinged",...!!! ... working similar to a lever action rifle, the hinged trigger-guard can be raised or lowered, allowing for adjustment for fit and comfort of the shooter in the wrist area of this rifle,... !!!!!
Here are the specifications,....Overall,..64 1/2" .... Barrel is 47", swamped actual .50cal, rifled ....Weight is 12 lbs, ... Butt width is 1 1/2" , LOP is 14 3/4" ... definitely made for a big fellow,...!!!
Hope you enjoy, and all thoughts, opinions and comments welcome,...
Kenneth Orr's excellent photos are included .... Thanx, fellows, and enjoy,...!!! ... regards, CCF and Arnie Dowd ... (TWO LEFT "CLICKS" ON INDIVIDUAL PHOTOS WILL ENLARGE)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y2SwC3p/Full-Length.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mJKgjG6)
(https://i.ibb.co/3rk4Tky/Three-Quarter-Right-Side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDSbRSC)
(https://i.ibb.co/zG6jY8G/Three-Quarter-Left-Side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hnh1sNn)
(https://i.ibb.co/4ZspcQn/Detail-of-Patchbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PZTgRSv)
(https://i.ibb.co/Cmr7wyV/Detail-of-Cheek-Piece.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k5d8GTq)
(https://i.ibb.co/QpBkq0F/Detail-of-Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HBvCMZD)
(https://i.ibb.co/s5pw9ds/Detail-of-Side-Plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/280t31c)
(https://i.ibb.co/WnP45WW/Detail-of-Barrel-Tang.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v1Q6qxx)
(https://i.ibb.co/dBxY8J1/Detail-of-Signature.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VV54fpr)
(https://i.ibb.co/5Yyr6Lh/Close-Up-of-Trigger-Guard.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f85k2Hd)
(https://i.ibb.co/qD2nChS/Detail-of-Comb-Inlay.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x2rsYwk)
(https://i.ibb.co/B270nS8/Detail-of-Forestock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sw1Ff9q)
(https://i.ibb.co/pW01ndq/Detail-of-Trigger-Guard-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M82g97d)
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.... A few additional photos of the unique trigger-guard,.... comments welcome, .......
(https://i.ibb.co/pW01ndq/Detail-of-Trigger-Guard-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M82g97d)
(https://i.ibb.co/hFzPw5z/Detail-of-Trigger-Guard-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Df2xTX2)
(https://i.ibb.co/HtkVgqb/Detail-of-Trigger-Guard-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9bCNYW1)
(https://i.ibb.co/vjTLwnh/Detail-of-Trigger-Guard-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bKCNW9F)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YSvm47/Detail-of-Trigger-Guard.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vpxgr4W)
(https://i.ibb.co/5Yyr6Lh/Close-Up-of-Trigger-Guard.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f85k2Hd)
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Anie and Dana, thanks for posting these great pictures of this fine rifle. It sure has a lot to study.
Bob
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First off, thanks and wow!
Second, is the barrel held with wedges or pins? Ive seen wedges with holes in right sight side escutcheons to push them out with a pin, and the left side of wedge is the "escutcheon". Do you have a picture of the left side of forearm/foreend?
The nice ironwork makes me think Augusta county Virginia or somewhat north east / southwest either as an origin or influence, as well several other features...but just a first reaction! The side plate and the patchbox are sort of two different approaches, but unique isn't a surprise on something like this :).
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Yes its a fine and well used old rifle, unique in several ways. I like it a lot ! Not only the way its made but the wear and use it shows.. Shows a long useful history...I have no idea as to who the maker might be. I have never seen another rifle that shows convincing evidence to me to be by the same hand.. I have handled this rifle more than a little and always enjoy seeing again.. Louie
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I don’t understand the hinged guard. How does that enhance the fit for the shooter? Does the lock say “sharps”? Great rifle
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I don’t understand the hinged guard. How does that enhance the fit for the shooter? Does the lock say “sharps”? Great rifle
I have the same question, I don't see a means for adjustment unless the piece in front of the cross pin hole somehow can be adjusted up/down with that flat spring locking it in place.
Dennis
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Cool rifle!
The trigger guard looks like a hammer cocker to me.
Anyone ever pop the lock out and take a look?
John
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Again Thanks to Dana for his help in posting these photos and text as I'm not very good with this technical stuff ! First - the barrel is held by pins. Second - the association to McCamant is very sketchy and the only two things pointed out by Mel Hankla that would indicate a connection are the abstract shape and engraving of the inlays above and below the cheek-piece and the first, silver barrel-pin escutcheon. No one who has seen or handled the rifle thinks McCamant made it.
Let me try to explain how the "Gizmo" on the end of the TG works - as you can see there is a convex bolt-spring on the top of the small plate which presses against the vertical post of the TG just above the finger curl. That spring has two fingers that go around both sides of the post which goes through the plate and if the bolt of the spring is loosened it releases the pressure on the post and allows it to go up or down. Then when the bolt is screwed down it applies forward pressure on the post holding it securely in place. This allows the distance between the TG rail and the bottom of the wrist to be increased or decreased which in turn increases or decreases the size of the bow of the TG for a fellow with big fingers or wearing gloves which makes the most sense. The maximum deviation is just bit over 3/8" but that does make a substantial difference in the depth of the bow of the TG
We will truly appreciate any thoughts, comments, theories or questions. My hope also is that those guys who read and post on this site who have seen and handled this rifle (and expressed a theory to me) will now post those ideas and theories for everyone to think about. There is no question that this isn't the only rifle this maker made ! I hope Louie doesn't mind but he knows this rifle physically better than anyone. Even though he did not take the rifle apart he made a beautiful bench-copy and it has been wonderful to see what it looked like "new". He is the one who somewhat by accident discovered the hinged TG
In my opinion the two most interesting features on this rifle are the Federal Eagle which is part of the finial of the patchbox; and the bust of the Indian (complete with bald-head, scalp-lock, braids and fringed shirt neck line) who is trying to tell us something but what ?
Thanks Again to Everyone and I will try to answer questions as they are posted.
Arnie
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JTR - there is NO connection between the TG and the lock or cocking it. You have to remove the pin holding the rear of the TG to the stock to move (lever)
the TG. The forward part of the bow of the TG is simply hinged to the "bird" finial of the TG
Arnie
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What a neat ol rifle. Here is my observation, based on many years being a mechanic. If this is indeed an adjustable guard, after removing pin and dropping down, getting whatever adjustment is desired THEN what holds guard rear in That adjustment? I see nothing that would do this.
I do see a possibility the the front end of guard is inlet and locked/pined into trigger plate in such a way as to hold it tight when the mounting pin is reinstalled in the rear of guard, making this just another idea on how to set this stuff up, and possibly eliminating a front guard thru the stock pin.I like this idea well enough to do one on an upcoming longrifle build.
Please bear in mind I haven't seen as many or held as many of these great old guns and some of the rest of you have, but I am always looking for the unique and unusual ways the oldtime smiths did things.
Best regards to all. Dave F 8) 8)
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Louie is this the rifle you made a copy of a few years ago? Seems like I remember seeing this rifle at the TN show last year of the year before and I remember seeing a rifle you built that had the same inlays at the rear of the lock panels.
Jim
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bama - Yes, this is the rifle that Louie copied about 4 years ago and yes it was at the Tenn show in 2017 when I took this original rifle there. As I said in the previous post, Louie did not take this rifle apart - except he did remove the TG because he could not understand why there was space all the way around the forward post of the TG where it attached to the forward TG finial. The bird on the forward end of the TG is thought to be likely a Peacock (a sacred bird of the SE tribes and the pin which hods it in place then becomes the bird's eye. When he removed the rear pin this is what fell out or levered down !! When he made the copy he did not copy the adjustable part of the "Gizmo" (as I call it) because he felt it was way to much work for something that didn't show. Louie is a close friend and I know he doesn't mind if I brag about his incredible work.
Arnie
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Arnie that is a great rifle and Louie did indeed to a fine job building the copy. Thanks for bringing it to the TN Show and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you brought it again.
Jim
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Mountainman 70, Dave I apologize for answering yours and bama's posst in the wrong order. This "Gizmo" is complicated in design (I believe Louie said pretty ingenuous) and yet simplistic in function. As an engineer I am sure you could explain it verbally better than I am. Please reread my previous description (the to long post !) but I'll try to make it clearer. The forward TG finial is pinned to the stock (the pin can not be seen as it is hidden by the side-plate and the lock-plate) and is only connected to the forward bow by the hinge. The pin through the head of the bird (thought to be a Peacock - a scared bird to the SE tribes) is to secure that extension and appear as an eye for the bird. The rear (or bottom) part of the forward finial has two exterior fingers that extend back around on either side of the hinge and the forward part of the trigger plate (which is 4&1/2" in length) thus making it more stable. When the TG is levered back up in place (closed) there is lip on the hinge that over-laps the end (clamps it down) of the trigger plate further securing it in place.
Now regarding the rear adjustable mechanism: Yes it is truly adjustable. First - the rear of the TG where the finger curl is, is not directly attached to the rear finial plate which is the base for the adjustable mechanism. This plate is obviously held by a pin through the tenon which extends up into the stock. The vertical post (the part which will slide up or down thus adjusting the distance between the rail and the bottom of the wrist) is actually a top part of the TG finger curl. This part that passes through the plate is basically square so there is more flat surface for the extensions (fingers) of the spring to bear upon. When you loosen the bolt holding the convex spring that then releases pressure on the post thus allowing it to move up or down. When you tighten the bolt which flattens the spring this forces the forward end (the fingers around the post) to move forward and apply enough pressure (the fingers are touching the post on three sides) to firmly hold it in place thus the post can not be moved up or down. I hope this makes sense ! Thanks for your patience and you may want to think twice about making one of these until you visit with Louie ! If you look at how short the distance is between the bottom of the stock and the the top of the rear tenon you can better understand how small this little mechanism is.
I am going to send 3 or 4 plain close-up photos (which were not on the disk) to Dana which should make this whole application easier to understand. I am sure he can scan them in and post them.
Thanks, Arnie
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Jim - You have no idea how much I'd like to be in Alabama next weekend and at Mel's KY show in Feb but those and even Tenn are much less likely than in the past as my Natalie's health (sadly she has Alzheimer's) continues to slide slowly and our son (Arn Jr. age 52) now lives with us as he is now on full disability retirement.
But, God willing, maybe sometime in the future I'll get back there again and bring a couple of rifles. However, it is great to share and stay in touch through this site as well as email and phone with all my friends back east - its a long way from our mountains here in Colorado.
Thanks, Arnie
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Thanks for the clarification,Arnie,and my condolences for your wife and son.
I can sorta visualize what you describe. Some seriousgood closeups would be great. I have found it difficult at best to describe some things to others when being able to hold it and see would be great. Not possible here,and that's ok.
So, all that being said, I am not gonna try to make something like this,way out of my realm.But I am going to make the next longrifle guard mounted like I said. Ya gotta admire the old smiths ingenuity.
Have a goodun guys. Dave F 8) 8)
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Really appreciate you guys posting the rifle here, I hadn't seen it before. Is the federal eagle within the patchbox double headed?
Thanks,
Matt
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Matt - Yes but I am sure he did it for symmetry or balance. Thanks for asking - important question, Arnie
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Dave - Kenneth and I should have thought of the importance of more interior close-ups, but - Dana will be posting shortly a great photo (taken from the bottom) of the TG area of Louie's copy when the rifle was in the "white". This will help as it clearly shows the "finger-type" extensions on both ends. There will also be posted in couple of days some other close-ups although they are not as good but good enough.
The script on the silver plates is the real challenge and likely our answer but thus far have been unable to clarify it. Have tried highly technical, commercial x-ray (variable ray, density, etc) to no avail but now working on angle, digital, variable light photographs. High Density Laser Scan has also been suggested but yet to find a source out here.
Thanks for all the input, Arnie
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... here is the photo of the Louie Parker recreation of this rifle, showing the trigger-guard and trigger-plate ,.....rifle still "in the white" at this point .... (TWO LEFT CLICKS WILL ENLARGE PHOTO)
(https://i.ibb.co/BrpHQ1k/thumbnail.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b20jCft)
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I have a theory that the rear attachment of the trigger guard Is actually a repair rather than an adjustment. I just don’t see going to all the effort To make a grip rail adjustable. It’s just a theory. Having it in hand might change my mind.
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I have had the pleasure of examining this great rifle several times and, like the king in the “King and I”, I can only say: “‘tis a puzzlement.” As a Southern collector, I am quick to claim it for my region. The possibility, perhaps even probability, exists that it was made for an important Southeastern Indian. But, not only for whom but by whom is a mystery so far. I certainly don’t have a clue. It obviously was made by a master craftsman who made many more rifles during his career. One would think that there would be several extant examples of work by this talented and inventive maker. Although his other rifles would not be similar in all aspects to this unique rifle, one would think there would be enough similar characteristics to make an attribution. I haven’t seen another.
Thank you Arnie, for making this jewel available for study. Hopefully, someone will eventually come up with a convincing attribution. In the meanwhile, I’m keeping my eyes open!
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SHRECKMEISTER - Wish you could see and handle it as you would be totally confident that the "Gizmo" is a unquestionable and intentional piece of engineering. Louie will/would insure you of the fact. We will be posting 4 more photos from Louie that will help clarify its constructional design and intended use.
Thanks for your observation and opinion. Arnie
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A couple more questions, is the Tang original to the gun, in y'all's opinion? What is the distance from the rear most barrel pin to the trigger guard and to the rear entry pipe? Is that a brass inlay between the two silver name plates on the barrel? I'll have more questions tomorrow but really like this one!!
Matt
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This may be totally off the wall, but I remembered seeing a similarly shaped trigger guard a while back. It has a ridge down the center of the bow, a spur that curves forward, and an unusual forward attachment (but not a hinge). The rifle was on an auction site and I saved the pictures. The auction listing included this.... {There is an attached note to the trigger guard dated 1992, from noted expert W.B. Gusler, handwritten, stating “This rifle signed P. Wilson appears to be related to the Wilson family of Gunsmiths in Botetourt County, VA. (The patchbox) is related to Kinser, who worked in the adjacent Craig County, VA. The engraving behind the rear sight is typical of Botetourt rifles and the filing of the rear ramrod pipe is related to signed John Wilson examples. The butt plate, stock architecture and barrel tang are more typical of Western Tenn. And N.C. I believe the piece represents a maker that moved Southeast from Botetourt after his apprenticing”.}
(https://i.ibb.co/dt4byGS/24744221-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6KJFhq)
-Ron
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That's a Pleasant Wilson rifle. Very distinctive characteristics especially the screw that comes down to the front of the trigger guard. But your right, some similarities.
Matt
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..... photos by Louie Parker of the adjustment mechanism of the trigger-guard,...... (Left click to enlarge)
(https://i.ibb.co/VTj0cyD/thumbnail.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3cr59XW)
(https://i.ibb.co/mN1GHLP/thumbnail-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SfWPKhZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/9NwmFPj/thumbnail-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XgxwhF)
(https://i.ibb.co/1TyFxM0/thumbnail-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m4Zf70R)
(https://i.ibb.co/r6HHn8M/thumbnail-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0MrrP4Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/MSR2fMQ/thumbnail-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/545MkBw)
(https://i.ibb.co/pPx4N26/thumbnail-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rtm5qkK)
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Arnie it would be an honor to have you come to the Alabama show. I will keep you and your family in my prayers.
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Another question, is that bone inlay in the shield of the federal eagle in the patchbox finial, or brass. Wishing your family the best Arnie.
Matt
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bama - Matt - As I said, I'd love to be there. Many Thanks for your prayers
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Jim - sorry about the name confusion as I was trying to answer both you and Matt - it seems that sometimes my mind is going around in circles !
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Matt - your questions: the opinion of those who have handled the rifle is that the tang is original although the lower tang screw/bolt is a period replacement. There appears, as you can see, some sort of lead? poured repair between the upper end of the tang and breech of barrel. We've chosen not to take it apart to see why.
Neither of the tang screws go through and screw into the trigger plate as its not necessary do to the way the TG installation is designed. The tang is 5&3/4" long
The distance from the rear pin to the bow of TG is 12&3/4" and to the forward end of the TG finial (birds head) is 9&1/2".
The distance of the rear pin to the lower brass wedding band of entry pipe is 3&1/2" and then the tail/tang of the entry pipe is another 3&1/2".
All pipes are exactly 8&1/2" apart on center.
The nose cap is 2&1/2" long and has metal end - no wood shows.
The pipes are all 2&1/2" long, are faceted with brass overlaid wedding bands.
The LOP is 14&3/4".
Yes, the three-piece inlay between the silver plates is brass.
As is obvious, this rifle was made for a "big" guy.
If you have more questions just ask
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Matt - the three vertical bars of the Federal shield on the breast of the Eagle are brass. You may want to also look closely at the 8" toeplate as there are two brass bar inlays in the lower section. Then the whole thing is engraved right across the iron and brass.
Thanks for all the good questions.
Arnie
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Ky-Flinter - Thanks for the photo showing the similarity of the TG's and the rest of the info/comments. You are sure not the only person to suggest a VA relationship and I have wondered. HOWEVER - when Wallace Gusler, a long time friend, spent about 15 mins looking at and studying the rifle at the 2017 Tenn show his comments were as I remember: " this is an incredible rifle and I've never seen anything like it and I do NOT think its from VA but from where ?"
Arnie
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I am still baffled by the supposed "adjustment" to the rear of the trigger guard. After reviewing all the pictures, it still doesn't make mechanical sense to me. Is the guard all the way up in its current position, since the bow currently is almost touching the tips of the triggers? If so, how can it be lowered by the existing mechanism? The iron plates where the rear spur's stud goes straight up, are already touching together, allowing no farther advancement downward if the screw in fact can push them farther apart; if it only allows stud to move up from this position, there is virtually no room since bow is already almost touching triggers and can't go higher. The "guard adjustment mechanism" doesn't make sense from what I can see of the mechanics of the various pieces and the single "adjustment" screw. So what am I missing here...and if it really adjusts the guard up and down...how much can it possibly move the guard (and which direction?) from its current position? Shelby Gallien
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I've enjoy mechanical mysteries. I put together a sketch of how I believe the individual components to be arranged. I believe there is a small piece (of the forward end of the trigger guard rear finial) which was broken off. I added it back in, on my drawing. I can conceive that the peg of the trigger guard could move in or out, and that there would be would be about 3/8" of adjustment as Arnie mentions. From the picture it appears that the spring sits slightly recessed into the sides of the peg. Possibly this is due to years of it wearing in. The design is very intriguing. To my modern eye its a strange design to use to make an adjustable guard.
Another idea of its function keeps haunting me though, and I certainly don't want to offend by suggesting an alterative. Could the guard have been flexed (bowed out by hand pressure) such that the peg would release from the spring, allowing the guard to swing freely from the forward hinge. I'm not sure why this would be a design advantage unless trigger adjustments were needed to be made often?
I'm a total rookie when it comes to the historical stuff. :-\
Richard
(https://i.ibb.co/XDkg9Wg/guard-drw2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxpZdLZ)
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Richard - Where have you been ??!! Thank You - they say a picture is worth a thousand words and this is a perfect example. Your very intelligent observations resulting in this sketch have solved what I have been trying to describe (somewhat poorly) verbally the past two days.
I am going to pull the pin and let the TG lever down later today as its been some time and I need to check a couple of things before commenting to much further. I also want to talk to Louie as he knows this rifle and this mechanism better than anybody.
You could be correct about the two finger extensions of the forward part of the facing plate of the rear finial being broken at some point but with a lighted glass looking from the exterior they appear even and flat but of course could have been filed.
One small correction is that the bolt only screws into the flat bar or base of the mechanism. The exterior plate of the rear TG finial is very thin and appears to have been braised or ? attached to the base bar of the mechanism.
Richard, there are no questions or optional opinions over the line but the TG inc the rail is far to thick and heavy for it to be bowed by hand.
SHELBY - you are correct in that the post is pushed up as far as it will go and so can only be pulled down thus increasing the distance between the TG rail and the stock which in turn enlarges the bow of the TG.
Thanks Again so much and I'll be back in touch; but as Louie has said - this thing was a $#*! of a lot of work for the resulting benefit !!
Arnie
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I think we are starting to make this "device" into something it isn't. The sketch incorrectly shows the shape of the stud coming directly upward off the guard. That stud has small corners cut into it that overhang the arced spring's top edges, not allowing the stud (and attached guard) to move down. Someone needs to explain CLEARLY the exact steps to lower the guard 3/8"...I don't see how it can be done with this device. Shelby Gallien
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Shelby - YOU are correct - The vertical POST CAN NOT move up or down ! It is completely my fault and misunderstanding of the detailed construction of the small mechanism that led me to a incorrect assumption of how this worked and why. Lets all refrain from further discussion until I post later to day following a second visit with Louie as well as spending more add'l time (one hour last evening with lighted mag-glass) looking at this mechanism.
Thank You all for your patience,
Arnie
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This is a message that I sent Arnie today.. He ask that I post it...Louie Parker
This my description of the mechanism. Its an over kill to achieve a slight hinging action of the rear finial. The guard is hinged at both ends.. The upright post at the bottom is lets say, 1/2 inch wide. About 1/4 inch up it is reduced in width about 1/16 on each side. This forms a shelf on each side for the inside finial to rest on. The finial has a rectangular shaped hole so it slides down over the upright and rest on the shelf . The upright has a notch cut on each side . The bottom of the notch is about even with the upper side of the inside finial . Now the "spring" with two arms is slid forward with an arm on each side going through the notches.. Acting as a retaining ring. The outer finial is cut to fit around the upright then a screw goes through all three pieces to hold it together. This allows the rear of the finial a bit of up and down flex to conform to the curve in the stock. I could see no other purpose and its not a repair..... LP
PS> Hope this is at least as clear as mud....Also the inside finial is inlet, the outside finial sets on top of the wood.
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Louie,
I was thinking that the "adjustment" might be a one time thing to allow a stock/premade triggerguard to be used on any stock. Is that what you were saying? I can't see it as a user adjustment, ie, done in the field, but it would allow the gunmaker to use the guard on a variety of stocks according to the customers specifications.
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bfg....Why he made it like this is a question that neither you or I can
answer. We can only speculate. But I doubt that he made a bunch of these so they would fit various patterns. It may have been just an experiment ?? I doubt that we see another. When I make an iron guard I attempt to make it fit my pattern and lay flat on top of the wood front and rear finial. Don't always come out that way and the guard must be bent somewhere. I don't think he had that problem with this guard. Is that a reason for all this work ? Not to me. LP
PS< No its not a user adjustment.....
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My THANKS to Louie for his detailed description of the construction of this part. My apologies also for my error in understanding and description - it has again reminded me to assume less and do more personal inspection and study. Last evening I measured the maximum deviation (up and down) of the potential (loose) swivel movement of this complicated and very labor intensive part - it is only 1/4". I then put it back together and hung it on the wall perhaps never to be disassembled again, at least not in my lifetime. Like Louie, I do not believe this very fancy TG was ever meant to be used on another rifle. We will most likely never know why he designed it like this since it is (again as Louie has voiced) an incredible amount of work that achieves little or no benefit.
Now that this subject has been discussed, solved (by Louie) and now under stood by all involved :
I would like to return to the more important discussion of who possibly made this rifle, where and for whom ? I remain optimistic that I will be able to
bring out a few more letters on the silver plates. If any of you can suggest something to try please share it.
Wayne Elliott mentioned the theory that perhaps it was made for a influential (perhaps mix-blood) high ranking Indian (Chief ?) of one of the southeastern tribes. Perhaps to secure allegiance to the US - this could ? possibly explain the Federal Eagle on the patchbox and the bust of the Indian on the half-moon inlay on the cheekrest. This possible theory is shared by other knowledgeable students such as Guy Montfort and Allen Gutchess and myself. Guy has also noted that the shape of the abstract piercings on the side plate resemble beading patterns of some of the southeastern tribes. There are several recorded instances of this happening either in presentation or by the request of the recipient; although the only known example (to me and Guy) is Chief Whale's rifle. I know this takes us off on another tangent but all possibilities re this rifle are worth consideration.
Thank You again for your understanding and patience,
Arnie
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I still don't see how it is possible to move the guard up or down, even a quarter inch, to change it's actual position on the rifle. Once the pin is re-inserted to lock the "device" in place, it looks to me like the guard is always going to be in the same place...unless you bend the guard! If you are saying it "wiggles a little" when the device is off the gun, i.e. partially disassembled as in several of the posted pictures, I can see that. But I cannot see how the device can allow the guard to be "adjusted" or moved a quarter inch up or down when everything is installed and the gun is ready to use. To me, it just looks like the guard is always going to be in the same place after the pin is re-inserted to hold the device in place in the stock. OK, I'll drop the subject.
I always thought rifles made for Indian chiefs, when we have documentation to verify the intended use, had bright brass mounts and silver inlays. Is there a known rifle made for an Indian chief that was iron mounted? It just doesn't seem to be what an Indian would be looking for, based on what we currently know. Mel Hankla did great research on his fine Thomas Simpson rifle, and found documentation of a chief requesting that he be given [by our government, of course] a fine rifle just like the Gasper Mansker rifle he had seen. That rifle, which is Mel's outstanding rifle, is all brass mounted and heavily embellished with silver highlights, an ultra-fancy rifle with superb curly maple stock. I guess an Indian Chief could ask for a duller looking rifle...but that would be like my wife asking for a duller looking pair of shoes...probably a low percentage possibility. Shelby Gallien
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A gift is a gift. It might be rude to ask for something fancier!
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;) ;) ;).... Shelby,... If you double click on photos 3,4,&5, of the T/G assembly, you... will 2X enlarge the photos,... you will see that the flat spring fits into a notch on the post on the grip rail that goes up through the rear extension of the guard assembly,... tightening the screw at the rear will compress this flat spring, therefore allowing the grip rail to lower .... loosening same screw will allow flat spring to raise, bringing the post up with it,... this being said, perhaps only 3/8" adjustment,... not much, but could be a lot in the wrist area,... why the builder did all this extra engineering,...Who knows,...???? ... but got to agree is one of a kind,... there is one known Honaker (or maybe Shaffer) that has a hinge on front of guard, but a different catch at back, and no spring loaded adjustment device,... This rifle bears no resemblance to any known rifles by those makers,... The BIG question now, is thoughts on the builder, and for whom she was built,.... obviously by a creative gunsmith, and a well heeled customer,.... or maybe he built her for himself, to showcase his ingenuity,...!!!!
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CCF there is no room for the movement you suggest . In the photos the finial is resting on the shoulder of the grip rail so the post can't go up further. The spring prevents downward movement, Tight or loose will make little or no difference. That may have been his intention but there is no room for that. All this amounts to is a PIVOT point. It could have been done with a hole drilled through the post and finial and pin installed. Just like the front end. If you push down on the rear of the finial it goes down. The front only pivots. I could seen no other possible action.
Now someone tell Arnie who made his rifle ! LP
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Dana - Do you have or can you get a photo of this other rifle that has a hinge on the front of the TG as I would sure like to see it.
Thanks, Arnie