AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: http.wyattt on March 24, 2019, 11:40:16 PM
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I was wondering if anyone on here has any knowledge of or experience with the sporting rifles from October country muzzleloading? They seem like heavy, powerful rifles that would be great to use for large game hunting. Just can't find much about them online.
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What do you call large game?
12lbs is a lot to haul around.
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That is a heavy rifle. Too heavy for me. According to Forsyth, 9 1/2 pounds was the proper weight for a 14 bore rifle, which is what my 14 bore single shot weighs.
It's a great hunting rifle for NA game. You really don't need any more power than what 165gr. (6 drams) gives you. You do not need 200gr. to kill anything in
NA and really, 6 drams is a lot more than needed. A load of 130 to 140gr. of today's powder will give a point blank range of about 130yards. A great shooting rifle
that STAGGERS (ACTUAL side step) bull moose on impact. W-H-O-C-K what a sound. A few steps and down. A .75 (11bore) is even better, but kicks a lot more, too.
12 pounds if a lot to carry. Looks good, though. I would like to experiment with a 102" twist, myself. .007" deep is perfect. 006 is likely more than needed as well, at
that slow twist rate. It is quite possible, you will have to really stoke a 102" twist to get decent accuracy. I would think about 85" with .007 or .008" rifling would be
perfect, if VERY wide grooves and VERY narrow lands.
Of course, there is always the 8 bore they advertise, at 14 pounds. I think that would be necessary for an .83/.84 calibre rifle.
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Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe 14 bore is about .55 cal. or 28 gauge. I have a .54 Hawken. It weighs in at 10.5 lbs. It is a lot to carry, unless you are hunting off horseback. At 12 lbs, I would need a gun bearer.
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Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe 14 bore is about .55 cal. or 28 gauge. I have a .54 Hawken. It weighs in at 10.5 lbs. It is a lot to carry, unless you are hunting off horseback. At 12 lbs, I would need a gun bearer.
I think “bore” is commonly interchangeable with “gauge”.
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A 14 bore, or gauge, would be .69 cal,,,,,Ed
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My gun is 9lbs and that's all I can carry in these mountains. If it weighed 12 lbs i'd have to hunt from my Jeep.
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Here is a little clarification on bore gauge.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/bore-firearms
Mike
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Mike- I thought this might be simpler or more easily understood.
Weighs are in grains: 7,000gr. to 1 pound = 16oz. in pure lead. (SG=11.34)
Gauge or bore, are the same and are a fraction of 1 pound of pure lead.
Thus, a round ball of 45 bore is 7,000gr. divided by 45 = 155.55gr. in pure lead, thus rounded is 155.6gr.
Bore#:-----Caliber-ball weight in gr.
45------------.470"-155.6
40------------.488"-175.0
35------------.511"-200.0
30------------.538"-233.3
28------------.550"-250.0
25------------.571"-280.0
24------------.579"-291.7
20------------.615"-350.0
16------------.663"-437.5 = 1 oz.
14------------.693"-500.0
12------------.730"-583.3
11------------.751"-636.4
10------------.775"-700.0
8-------------.876"-875.0
6-------------.919"-1,166.7
4-------------1.052"1,750.0
2-------------1.326"3,500.0
1-------------1-671"7,000.0=1 pound
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Thank you Daryl, That clarifies it for me . Bore and Gauge are really different terms for the same thing. At any rate a 12 pound gun is way too heavy. One question why do you use bore for some guns and caliber for others? I don't believe I've ever seen you call a .50 cal rifle a 35 bore.
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Could you call a .511 bore a 50cal?
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Thank you Daryl, That clarifies it for me . Bore and Gauge are really different terms for the same thing. At any rate a 12 pound gun is way too heavy. One question why do you use bore for some guns and caliber for others? I don't believe I've ever seen you call a .50 cal rifle a 35 bore.
Alacran, Bore size was actually used quite extensively in the m-loader era. If you find an old scissors type mold it will be marked as to the number of balls it will mold that add up to one pound pound. If the mold is marked 35 it would cast a .511 ball and be used in a bore that is slightly larger, maybe a .52 to .53 cal barrel. When a gunsmith made a barrel he would also make a mold to go with that barrel as there were no standard size calibers. I believe the decimal system began to be used in the industrial era because suppository guns require much more precision in their manufacture and fit of ammunition. The English still retained the "bore" designation in the suppository era but it usually designated that the firearm's bore was a larger than the average rifle, or "shotgun" bore size and usually intended for dangerous game,,,,,,
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Could you call a .511 bore a 50cal?
No, A .511 size BORE would be called a .51 cal and take a smaller ball, maybe 36 or 37 ball to the pound.... A
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Could you call a .511 bore a 50cal?
No, A .50 cal rifle actually shoots a .490 or 495 ball, but we still call it a .50 cal as that is the actual size of the bore.
That was my point and why Daryl doesn't call a .50 cal gun a 35 bore. I wasn't asking a question. I was answering one.
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My understand is that they used "bore" for rifles and "gauge" for shotguns. But sizes were the same either way.
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Thank you Daryl, That clarifies it for me . Bore and Gauge are really different terms for the same thing. At any rate a 12 pound gun is way too heavy. One question why do you use bore for some guns and caliber for others? I don't believe I've ever seen you call a .50 cal rifle a 35 bore.
Very often this was so, Bill. There was some interchangeability, though, through the 1850's onwards.
Way back when - the standard English language for guns was all by the "bore" or as we call it "gauge".
Normally in the states before and after the revolution, gun calibres were called by "# of balls to the pound"- other words for that "phrase" are bore and gauge.
The two books I have encouraged the guys here to obtain, "Firearms of the American West" - both volumes - have many re-printed "orders" from stores and from outfitters in the West, ordering rifles, smoothbore and smooth-rifles, as 180 to the pound, for .29/.30calibre rifles, 53 to the pound, for .44 to .45 calibres, 32 to the pound for .52 or .53 calibre, then of course, for larger calibres, more common to us, 20, 16 , 12 to the pound or bore.
I mix up the designation of my big rifle, calling it either a 14 bore or .69 - depends on just what I happen to call it - I use both even though a true 14 bore's measurement land to land is .693" & my rifle is .003" smaller than that. That too, was common - in the 1800's. Also common was the use of one 'gauge' or 'bore' smaller in ball size. So a 14 bore (.69) would use a 15 bore (.677) ball and a substantial patch to take the rifling.
Interestingly enough, the American Mil. Muskets of the 1700's (following the French designs) on up to 1842, the first percussion Musket were called .69's, not 14 bore. Too, these would range from just under .69, right up to .70 cal. before more tightly controlled dimensions were ordered (around 1809- I think) for interchangeability of parts, etc.
A .50 would be closer to a 37 bore, which has a .501" bore size & would likely use, back then, a 40 bore, ball, around .488" or so.
What really confuses the issue was after the change to ctgs. wherein the groove diameter was used in the name - generally, while others continued to use the bore size as in England mostly but not exclusively. It all can be confusing.
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Thanks again Daryl.
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That is a heavy rifle. Too heavy for me. According to Forsyth, 9 1/2 pounds was the proper weight for a 14 bore rifle, which is what my 14 bore single shot weighs.
It's a great hunting rifle for NA game. You really don't need any more power than what 165gr. (6 drams) gives you. You do not need 200gr. to kill anything in
NA and really, 6 drams is a lot more than needed. A load of 130 to 140gr. of today's powder will give a point blank range of about 130yards. A great shooting rifle
that STAGGERS (ACTUAL side step) bull moose on impact. W-H-O-C-K what a sound. A few steps and down. A .75 (11bore) is even better, but kicks a lot more, too.
12 pounds if a lot to carry. Looks good, though. I would like to experiment with a 102" twist, myself. .007" deep is perfect. 006 is likely more than needed as well, at
that slow twist rate. It is quite possible, you will have to really stoke a 102" twist to get decent accuracy. I would think about 85" with .007 or .008" rifling would be
perfect, if VERY wide grooves and VERY narrow lands.
Of course, there is always the 8 bore they advertise, at 14 pounds. I think that would be necessary for an .83/.84 calibre rifle.
My 14 bore has an 1 3/8"x30" barrel. Just lugging it to my tree stand is a chore. It has a 1:90 twist with .006 grooves. 120 gr of 2F is fine for good accuracy at 50 yards, but it needs 150gr at 100 yards. I leave it at 120 gr since I'm a white tail hunter and my eyes don't allow responsible shoots much past 50 yards. Truth be told, I'm thinking about selling it.
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I agree, more powder for longer ranges - even my 66" twist GRRW bl. needs 140-165gr. 2F of today's GOEX to give it's best accuracy at 100 to 200yards.
To hit the 200meter steel plate regularly with my 14 bore, I have to load it with 165gr.2F.
However, likely due to the more rapid twist, 85gr. will shoot into around 2" at 100yards. For deer, that would be fine, running 1,250fps mv.
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I've used Swiss 1.5F in my .54 and it worked good. Graf's was out of 2F at the time, so I grabbed 1.5F not knowing what to expect.
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In one gun I have, 85gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F gave 70fps less velocity than 78gr. of 3f GOEX - same volume in a stricken measure. (7 grains difference)
The 1 1/2F was more accurate and I was shooting conicals.
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I was wondering if anyone on here has any knowledge of or experience with the sporting rifles from October country muzzleloading? They seem like heavy, powerful rifles that would be great to use for large game hunting. Just can't find much about them online.
I have an October Country .69 Great American Sporting Rifle. Bought it used about 10 years ago. It's a beast for sure. I have only shot whitetail deer here in the Midwest with it. With 160gr. of 1.5F OE, .025" denim patch and .678" RB it gets just over 1650 fps.
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Got some mean deer up there? :)
Sounds fun actually.
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I have a rifle that shoots a .662 ball (16 bore), 140 gr of FF Swiss (a little less than 1/3 ball weight). This shoots very well and gives 1600 fps. Shooting more powder shows that it is at the point of diminishing returns. I.E. velocity gain for grain of powder increase drops off. 30" barrel, flintlock, recessed Nock breech. Vent is about .070" IIRC.
It weighs about 10 pounds. But it does make recoil and I don't shoot it much anymore since I have had a back upper back/neck for a lot of years. But its a serious rifle and I would not hesitate to shoot anything in North America with it. It shoots hardened lead just as well as soft. 80" twist. Paper cartridges with no patch (paper grips the rifling) shoot to the same point of aim and group as patched balls.
Powder charges over what Daryl and I are shooting are not needed. If we read "Pondoro" By John Taylor we will find him shooting African elephant with a 10 bore shoot gun and 165 gr of powder. So people shooting 180-200+ grains from a 14 bore rifle are simply using too much powder. Forsythe tells us that his 26" barreled 14 bore with a "#15 ball" with 137 gr of "Halls #2" powder would drive a hardened ball through and Indian elephants head from side to side. He listed his actual trajectories and years ago I did some ballistics program work and it came out to about 1600 fps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnUxXub5vPU
Dan
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Good video Dan. I was hoping you would post it. The slow motion really shows what 140gr. Swiss kicks like with a one ounce ball.
Now, imagine the same load ratio (165 to 180gr.) with a 600gr. or heavier yet, ball. A normal 10 bore rifle would be shooting a 640gr.
hardened ball.
The English designed rifle handles the recoil about the best of them, perhaps Jaegers coming in second, Edward Marshal
designs tied with the German guns.
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Got some mean deer up there? :)
Sounds fun actually.
It's fun for sure. I'm in the STL area so we are shooting the same deer.
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Dphariss,
In my October Country .69 velocity topped out at around 1460-1500 with 170gr. Goex 2Fg with fine accuracy. More Goex powder just made more noise. Now 1.5F Swiss or OE kept gaining velocity up to 190gr. when I stopped (rifle's max load rated at 210gr.). The 160gr. load of OE is way cleaner and faster than the Goex 170gr. load and accuracy is equal.
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I've been using nothing but GOEX 2F. When I tested 3F a couple summers ago, I found 2F to give slightly higher speeds and less pressure, of course.
I guess I need to do some chronographing & accuracy testing with 1 1/2F Swiss and maybe some OE 2F if I can get it at the local show, next month.
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I've been using nothing but GOEX 3F. When I tested 3F a couple summers ago, I found 2F to give slightly higher speeds and less pressure, of course.
I guess I need to do some chronographing & accuracy testing with 1 1/2F Swiss and maybe some OE 2F if I can get it at the local show, next month.
I suspect that Forsythe's "Halls #2" is about the same as FFF. But I also expect it was better powder than Goex. I wonder if OE smells the same as other black powder does.
If I use powder that produces flakes of fouling in the bore the Nock breech in my 16 bore will not work. A flake of fouling will fall over the passage to the antechamber and priming had to be worked through the vent to fire the rifle. I have only tried Swiss and Schuetzen in the rifle and only Swiss is reliable never producing any problems. The Schuetzen would only shoot 2-4 shots before the breech was blocked and the rifle would miss fire.
This link might be of interest when comparing Europeans and American granulations.
http://www.blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder
In the old days, I have read, the "F"s indicated the granule size and the "G" indicated "graphite" or "black lead" as it was called. The British military for example would not accept powder coated with "black lead".
Note the recommendation of the use of very fine grained powder in pistols. Back in the day this was common in both percussion revolvers and I believe in brass suppository cartridges for small caliber handguns loaded with BP. The granulation for percussion revolvers was "Revolver" and was about like FFFF. But when used with cartridges for percussion revolvers these had light charges since the paper or other cartridge material reduced the powder capacity. They also used elongated bullets much like the pointed "Picket" bullet used with a cloth patch in ML rifles. This also reduced the powder capacity since they were long for their weight.
I have also read accounts of shooters using very fine grained powder in rifles later in the ML era. IIRC "5F" was mentioned. But would have to dig to find the citation. Dillon, Cline or Roberts? Just don't recall. But I suspect these were 28-36 caliber "squirrel rifles".
Dan
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Thank you Daryl, That clarifies it for me . Bore and Gauge are really different terms for the same thing. At any rate a 12 pound gun is way too heavy. One question why do you use bore for some guns and caliber for others? I don't believe I've ever seen you call a .50 cal rifle a 35 bore.
Back in the day a rifle "carrying 32 to the pound" would be a 54 in today's vernacular.
John Joseph Henry in describing the rifle he purchased to replace one lost in a river crossing enroute to Quebec states; "The the gun was short, and carried about 45 balls to the pound". We have to remember that precision measuring was unknown. If parts were made to a size they were compared to a gage or a master part.
Describing firearms in balls to the pound was common until the late 1840s at least. The use of heavy for the bore size elongated bullets in the early BLs made this method obsolete.
Shotguns are generally described in gauge/balls to the pound to this day. The exception being the 410 and 9mm shot shell.
Dan