AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: mark brier on June 18, 2019, 01:56:43 AM

Title: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: mark brier on June 18, 2019, 01:56:43 AM
As the subject line says, tang bolts and lock bolts. Kinda have reached the point in life of getting tired of making them every time I need one. Who has a good source? I'm glad we have all the supplies and companies that we do providing all of our parts today, but at the same time $2.50 a bolt seems a little bit steep. Or am I out of touch? I looked in McMaster car today and all I found was plated and fully threaded ones. So who's got good sources?
Mark Brier
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Mike Brooks on June 18, 2019, 02:36:05 AM
I buy from Chambers or TOTW. $2.50 is a good price these days.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Kevin Houlihan on June 18, 2019, 03:52:28 AM
  Most of the common tang and lock bolts from Muzzleloaders Builders Supply are $1.75.  I've had real good luck dealing with them. Very helpful.
Kevin
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Goo on June 18, 2019, 05:09:14 AM
The lock bolts are most like a "cheese head" fastener but I could only find them available in metric threads.  I got quotes from shops with screw machines but you have to buy a couple thousand to get any lower cost per piece .   Cap head machine screws that could be easily modified only come in all thread for the length and size needed for lock bolts.  In the end I find myself paying the $2.50 each .
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: KentSmith on June 18, 2019, 05:14:30 AM
I bought a box of unplated 8 X32 by 2 1/2" a while ago from Blacksmith Bolt Supply.  Got 100.  Was looking st their site and could not find these anymore.  Should call and find out if they still have them.  Cost about 20 cents each back in 2013.  Could get carriage bolts and cut the slots - 14 cents each.

www.blacksmithbolt.com
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Bob Roller on June 18, 2019, 01:43:01 PM
These are not hard to make if you have a lathe.I sometimes furnished them with a new lock
if I happened to think about it. I used 12L14 and hand slotted them to get rid of the obviously machine made look
and on all the recent run of triggers I've been making the screws are made on my old Atlas 618 lathe
with no special tooling.All of the locks I made are made with my own screws.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Robin Henderson on June 18, 2019, 03:49:37 PM
At Friendship toward the end of the week I suddenly decided that I might need a few. The only vendor that hadn't pulled out had them for $4.00 apiece....Needless to say, I passed.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Gaeckle on June 18, 2019, 05:32:37 PM
Log Cabin shop has them, they have them in both 8x32 and 10x32
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: flehto on June 18, 2019, 06:23:49 PM
TOW has #6-32 and #8-32 lock bolts....the #6-32 is for the front lock bolt  seeing it fits in better. An #8-32 tang bolt also is used from TOW .....The price for these bolts is a minor cost considering the cost of the entire LR. .....Fred
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Lucky R A on June 18, 2019, 06:32:48 PM
Depending on how many you will use, you can get a better price if you buy in bulk from TOW.  A bulk pack of lock bolts is 50 pieces.  Ask for current prices, then you can make a decision.  I like having a supply on hand, then I have a number of students who help use them up all to soon. 
Ron
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: T*O*F on June 18, 2019, 07:28:44 PM
Brownells has service pack refills of unthreaded blanks in #'s 6, 8, 10, and 12.  They come in packs of 10 and you have to search for them but they are there.  The price is very reasonable.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/small-hardware/metal-screws/blank-screw-kit-prod376.aspx
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Frank on June 18, 2019, 07:33:36 PM
On a custom built gun that is worth several thousand dollars saving two bucks on some bolts doesn’t even enter into the equation.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: KentSmith on June 19, 2019, 08:17:37 PM
Maybe I am a cheapskate but if I use 15 bolts a year (5 guns) and I can save $2.00 a bolt (as mentioned above) that's $30 and I have to take notice.  I have to explain the costs of this hobby to the boss and she carries a big rolling pin everywhere she goes.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: rich pierce on June 19, 2019, 11:07:21 PM
I’d like to make my own but have had no skill/luck making a header. Reason to make own is to thread them only as far as needed.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 20, 2019, 12:02:23 AM
Blacksmith bolt/rivet supply has 3/16" diameter round head "rivets" out to 2" long.  You can make a countersunk header and just beat down the round head for a tang bolt, or you can make a flat header and just pancake it out a bit for a larger diameter - there is a lot of meat to work with.  At 3/16 shank, you can go #8 and remove some material, #10 or do coarse 3/16-24 which is actually fairly common on a lot of old guns.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: BOB HILL on June 20, 2019, 12:50:53 AM
What Eric said works great. I’ve used this method before.
Bob
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: mark brier on June 20, 2019, 01:13:01 AM
All valid points. Just had sticker shock on the price because of never buying them before. Always forged or used the lathe.
Mark
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Bob Roller on June 20, 2019, 01:48:56 PM
All valid points. Just had sticker shock on the price because of never buying them before. Always forged or used the lathe.
Mark

What is seen in the price of cross bolts and tang bolts is the same deterioration we
have seen in the value of money.You can now pay what a Lincoln,Cadillac or Packard
car once cost for a riding lawn mower.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: David R. Pennington on June 20, 2019, 02:04:03 PM
I make them. I bought a little mini lathe which is good for small screws. On side nails, the ones that hold the lock on the stock, I forge them. I had trouble getting enough material for an upset type head so I roll a ring cut just a tad short and forge weld to shaft, (you can get enough heat for this with oxy/acet torch) then head it. That gives plenty of material for a head. $2.50 would be cheaper than my labor involved but I like hand cut slots and correct length threads.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: smallpatch on June 20, 2019, 06:41:18 PM
Sure you can make them for real cheap.  If you don't consider your time worth anything.
15 cents worth of materials, and an hour of my time......worth way more than $2.50.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: David R. Pennington on June 20, 2019, 07:06:48 PM
You’re absolutely correct smallpatch, all depends on what you’re willing to accept as outcome.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Mark Elliott on June 20, 2019, 10:08:55 PM
I didn't see anyone mention R.E Davis as a source for lock bolts.   If I missed it, I apologize.   However,  they sell some large dome head lock bolts that are proper for an early rifle or pistol.   I like them for my rifles that have a Chambers Early Ketland or Colonial lock.  The price is $2.75 ea.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Bob McBride on June 21, 2019, 04:07:58 AM
All that may be true but $2.50 a screw is still high I don’t care who you are. Even for a $2k rifle. Spread that over $10,000 worth of custom flintlocks and that’s like, what, twenty five bucks plus tax? Screw that.

Edited for a correction in my figuring.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: mark brier on June 21, 2019, 04:36:48 AM
You are absolutely correct I do have bigger problems in my life, I've tried to leave them downrange but they return most every night mr bptactical... whoever that is.... happy to discuss offline if you would like. As for the rest of everyone thanks for your replies, I was just looking for the best source because reached that point in life where it would be nice to just pick one up and keep working versus stopping and making one.
Mark Brier
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Bob Roller on June 21, 2019, 02:21:38 PM
As I said earlier on this thread,I use 12L14 and it machines REALLY easy and takes a good thread.
I have used 1018 and modified carriage bolts but that was years ago.Choosing the right material
is the key to this job.There are pictures on this forum of a modified Atlas 6x18 lathe that I make all
of my screws on as well as establishing the width and small bearing on a tumbler.The final dimensions
on that job are finished on another 6x18.The tumblers are also dedicated material which is 1144
Stressproof.It machines like 12L14 and oil hardens like drill rod.Not cheap but RIGHT for this ONE job.
In years long gone I have tried the 1018 and mystery materials with no satisfactory results and have
seen posts about using a drill press and a file to modify bolts into small screws.My current level of
energy and patience will not even consider that idea.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Ky-Flinter on June 21, 2019, 03:42:44 PM
While we are on the topic of tang and lock bolts, why do most of the store bought ones have a slot you can drive a truck through?

-Ron
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: rich pierce on June 21, 2019, 04:34:52 PM
While we are on the topic of tang and lock bolts, why do most of the store bought ones have a slot you can drive a truck through?

-Ron

I guess they figure most users must only have cheap big box store screwdrivers. Same for wood screws
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Jim Kibler on June 22, 2019, 12:48:56 AM
Most ordinary wood screws have slots way beyond what cheap hardware screwdrivers fit.  One of these days I'll probably set up a machine to make good quality screws...
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: JCKelly on June 24, 2019, 02:45:02 AM
Half a lifetime ago when I built guns I had neither the skill, nor desire, to make such Perfect Rifles as you guys do today. I was quite happy if they had workmanship comparable to the sort of original Kentucky rifles that I could actually afford. Matching the lines & styling of an original mattered much more to me.

So, no @!*% lathe, just my trusty files with a 1963 B&D electric drill mounted on a drill stand. No other machine tools, think them unneccessary for what I made (maybe because I could not afford them?). Find a hex bolt, plain carbon steel in hardware, file that hex to a rounded head, cut the slot with hacksaw and/or file.     maybe maybe a carriage bolt

Of course file off any zinc, or dissolve it by soaking in lye. Brown that imperfect filed-to-shape thing & you have a good match for that old rifle Grampa gave you. No fantasies about making a living doing things that way - it was a fun hobby.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: jerrywh on June 24, 2019, 03:41:03 AM
Like Bob Roller I use 12L14 and make all my own screws and lock bolts. Nothing an my stuff is standard anyway. I prefer fine threads. For show guns it's easier to line up the slots with fine threads.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Dphariss on June 30, 2019, 03:54:15 PM
All valid points. Just had sticker shock on the price because of never buying them before. Always forged or used the lathe.
Mark

What is seen in the price of cross bolts and tang bolts is the same deterioration we
have seen in the value of money.You can now pay what a Lincoln,Cadillac or Packard
car once cost for a riding lawn mower.
Bob Roller

Tou pegged  it...
In 1975 I bought a 1/2 ton Chevy Van, new, for about 4000 IIRC.
In 1977 I bought a new 4x4 short bed Silverado 1/2 ton pickup, no A/C or power windows, for 5500 or 5700 can't recall right now. Great pickup.
In 1964 a IHC 1600 Cab and chassis truck was 3200 bucks.  First house I bought 30 odd years ago was 26000. When we sold it ot was over 100K and not much of a house....
Since about 1979 I have not been able to buy any new vehicles. Be !@*%&@ if I will pay 40-60K for a pickup.... 
Dan
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Dphariss on June 30, 2019, 04:02:01 PM
While we are on the topic of tang and lock bolts, why do most of the store bought ones have a slot you can drive a truck through?

-Ron

Because whoever is making them makes them that way and the suppliers apparently don't bother to tell them to make smaller slots. But on the other hand I don't especially like them too narrow either thats a PITA too.
Answer? Buy a little table top lathe and make your own. It will be handy for other things as well. You can make you own tumblers, vent liners, rod rips and other round stuff. Or better yet buy a decent sized lathe.
Dan
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: 45-110 on June 30, 2019, 06:33:26 PM
Dan you are right about a small lathe being almost indispensable. It's use sort of separates the builders from the assemblers. I have mine running for some project about every other day, alot of making some little tool. Craigslist/Ebay is a source for local deals.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Bob Roller on June 30, 2019, 08:48:10 PM
All valid points. Just had sticker shock on the price because of never buying them before. Always forged or used the lathe.
Mark

What is seen in the price of cross bolts and tang bolts is the same deterioration we
have seen in the value of money.You can now pay what a Lincoln,Cadillac or Packard
car once cost for a riding lawn mower.
Bob Roller

Tou pegged  it...
In 1975 I bought a 1/2 ton Chevy Van, new, for about 4000 IIRC.
In 1977 I bought a new 4x4 short bed Silverado 1/2 ton pickup, no A/C or power windows, for 5500 or 5700 can't recall right now. Great pickup.
In 1964 a IHC 1600 Cab and chassis truck was 3200 bucks.  First house I bought 30 odd years ago was 26000. When we sold it ot was over 100K and not much of a house....
Since about 1979 I have not been able to buy any new vehicles. Be !@*%&@ if I will pay 40-60K for a pickup.... 
Dan

I saw a Dodge crew cab for sale yesterday for $59,999 and it was USED low mile 2018.
Like you I will not pay such a price and also lost interest when the price of cars passed
that of real estate.I bought a 1997 Lincoln Town Car in 2005 at an estate sale for $3900
and it was low miles and we still use it every day with 186,000 on it. A nice big,quiet,
very comfortable car that gets 25MPG @70MPH with overdrive engaged and we have no
desire to replace it.I drove a low mile 2009 Town Car to the CLA Show in Lexington Ky.
3 years ago and it was sluggish because it was 500 lbs heavier than the '97 and low speed
handling was atrocious at parking lot speeds. I turned it down.The '97 is way more agile
with 4000 lbs instead of 4500.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Bob Roller on June 30, 2019, 09:01:07 PM
Dan you are right about a small lathe being almost indispensable. It's use sort of separates the builders from the assemblers. I have mine running for some project about every other day, alot of making some little tool. Craigslist/Ebay is a source for local deals.

I would be even more non functional than I am if I didn't have a lathe
and I have been blessed with 4 of them and am thinking of buying a
new 5th one.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: little joe on June 30, 2019, 11:04:16 PM
Last bbl from Rice 285 plus postage, lock and trigger 250 plus, wood 150 and brass at 100. If I pay that I will not cry about 10 dollars for screws. TOW has some nice ones.
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: flehto on July 01, 2019, 02:57:18 PM
The lock bolts and tang screws I've  bought from TOW require a thinned down screwdriver tip...the slots are quite narrow. The lock bolts have  nicely domed  heads and  the tang screws have  slightly domed heads. Have used these on all my builds ...Fred
Title: Re: Tang and lock bolts
Post by: Ky-Flinter on July 01, 2019, 06:02:17 PM
The topic of this thread is "Tang and lock bolts".  We all know the prices of everything keep going up, but let's try to stay on topic, please.

-Ron
ALR Moderator