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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: David Rase on September 14, 2019, 06:13:02 PM

Title: Spring information
Post by: David Rase on September 14, 2019, 06:13:02 PM
I am replacing a spring on a wheel lock and have a question about tempering.  I have made several flat springs in the past using 1085 with excellent results.  What concerns me with this wheel lock spring is the thickness.  Final leaf thickness will be .160".  The springs I have made in the past were never this thick, all of them less than .100".  I want to make sure I temper the spring correctly as I have about 8 hours of machining and filing time in this spring and really don't want to hear that dreaded ping when a spring breaks.  The material is 1080.
Thanks, David   
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: 45-110 on September 14, 2019, 07:38:09 PM
i hate to offer my technique(s) as i don't want to be responsible for a fracture. but i think 1080 gives a little more margin in heat treating than say 1095. i know about a bunch of hours in fabricating a beautiful spring and then comes the black art of tempering, stressful! show us a picture of the spring.
best
kw
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: smart dog on September 14, 2019, 07:53:18 PM
Hi Dave,
I hardened and tempered 2 mainsprings for wheelocks.  One was from 1075 steel and the other cast from 5160(?).  For both I tempered at my usual 750 degrees for 1 hour.  Because of the mass of wheelock mainsprings, I think you could consider tempering as high as 800 degrees. Also Dave, I always normalize mainsprings before hardening them.  If I were in your shoes, I think I would try 800 degrees first and see how it goes.  If too weak, then I'd harden the spring again and temper to 750.   However, the end result has to be a very strong spring because they have to have strength sufficient to power the wheel even after powder fouling and even loose priming powder gets between the wheel and the lock plate. That is absolutely critical or you will wind the wheel after 10 shots, fire, and it does not budge.

dave
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Justin Urbantas on September 14, 2019, 09:13:04 PM
If it were me, I would try to contact Bolek, and ask him. If anyone knows wheellocks, its him.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 14, 2019, 09:15:40 PM
I agree with smart dog. I would temper that spring at 800° for an hour.  A normal spring would only take about 20 minutes but in tempering you should figure on 1/8" of thickness = 20 minutes at the tempering thickness. Since that spring is so thick I would give it an hour. 1080 is a fairly forgiving steel but not completely.  When I first made locks I used 1075. But if not tempered correctly they will break also.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 14, 2019, 09:26:43 PM
Here is a tip Dave. Whenever you are making a spring the first thing to do is to heat the piece of steel to a good red heat and observe it to see if there are any flaws in it. If the steel has a flaw in it the flaw will show up as a white hot streak in it. You can see these flaws when the steel is red hot. A crack, no matter how small will show up as a white streak.  These cracks are possible even in new steel bought from a supplier. A heat treating engineer taught me this and it saved me many an hour of hard work. He also said the best spring steel is obtained from old cars because the suppliers give the best steel to the auto industry.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: James Wilson Everett on September 14, 2019, 09:58:49 PM
Guys,

i have made a great number of springs using 1095.  Heat to 1450, quench in brine without stirring or swirling the part.  Temper at 810.  Please realize that the heat treating of steel will not effect the load/deflection property in any way - not at all.  Identical springs tempered at 650 or 750 or 850 will all have an identical load/deflection characteristic.  The only way to make a spring stronger or weaker is to change its physical shape, size, or thickness.

Here is a quote from people who know:

The Iron Age Volume 89 May 9, 1912, page 1151

The stiffness of a piece of steel cannot be increased by alloying nor by heat treatment.  By this I mean that provided the elastic limit is not exceeded, the amount of deflection for a given load cannot be decreased.  However, heat treatment will raise the elastic limit so that a much greater load can be carried without causing a permanent set.  Until the elastic limit is reached all steels, no matter how treated or of what nature, will deflect the same amount under the same load.  However, the poorer grade steel or the un-heattreated one will reach its elastic limit first and will then deflect much more and retain a permanent set.


Jim
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Bob Roller on September 14, 2019, 10:48:55 PM
Hi Dave,
I hardened and tempered 2 mainsprings for wheelocks.  One was from 1075 steel and the other cast from 5160(?).  For both I tempered at my usual 750 degrees for 1 hour.  Because of the mass of wheelock mainsprings, I think you could consider tempering as high as 800 degrees. Also Dave, I always normalize mainsprings before hardening them.  If I were in your shoes, I think I would try 800 degrees first and see how it goes.  If too weak, then I'd harden the spring again and temper to 750.   However, the end result has to be a very strong spring because they have to have strength sufficient to power the wheel even after powder fouling and even loose priming powder gets between the wheel and the lock plate. That is absolutely critical or you will wind the wheel after 10 shots, fire, and it does not budge.

dave

Smart Dog,
It's 6150,the castable spring steel. I think most cast springs are made from it
but I am no expert on cast springs of any kind.What does a wheel lock mainspring
look like?
Bob Roller




Bob Roller
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 15, 2019, 01:12:34 AM
Springs can be cast from any spring steel. I have had them cast in 1095 and 01. I don't like 6150 because it doesn't get very hard when hardened.  It only has .5 carbon content. Not so good but it is very forgiving when beginners use it and don't draw it enough.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 15, 2019, 01:15:50 AM
"
The Iron Age Volume 89 May 9, 1912, page 1151

The stiffness of a piece of steel cannot be increased by alloying nor by heat treatment.  By this I mean that provided the elastic limit is not exceeded, the amount of deflection for a given load cannot be decreased.  However, heat treatment will raise the elastic limit so that a much greater load can be carried without causing a permanent set.  Until the elastic limit is reached all steels, no matter how treated or of what nature, will deflect the same amount under the same load.  However, the poorer grade steel or the un-heattreated one will reach its elastic limit first and will then deflect much more and retain a permanent set."

The flaw in this statement is when it says ALL STEELS.  NOT SO.

Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: B.Barker on September 15, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Dave, Frank house posted on the CLA fb page about how he tempers mainsprings now. I think he draws the temp back twice but not sure. I'm sure you can do a search and find it.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: David Rase on September 15, 2019, 02:02:27 AM
Hi Dave,
I hardened and tempered 2 mainsprings for wheelocks.  One was from 1075 steel and the other cast from 5160(?).  For both I tempered at my usual 750 degrees for 1 hour.  Because of the mass of wheelock mainsprings, I think you could consider tempering as high as 800 degrees. Also Dave, I always normalize mainsprings before hardening them.  If I were in your shoes, I think I would try 800 degrees first and see how it goes.  If too weak, then I'd harden the spring again and temper to 750.   However, the end result has to be a very strong spring because they have to have strength sufficient to power the wheel even after powder fouling and even loose priming powder gets between the wheel and the lock plate. That is absolutely critical or you will wind the wheel after 10 shots, fire, and it does not budge.

dave
Dave,
So I have my spring all filed out and polished.  I am assuming that the 1080 steel was normalized when I bought it since I was able to mill and file it in the as purchased state.  On previous springs I have made, I heated the material up with my oxy/acetylene torch using a neutral flame in order to bend it.  Once I had it arched to the shape I needed, I would heat it up red and quench it in oil to harden it.  I then polished the spring and then tempered it. 
You convinced me several years ago when I was upgrading my electric furnace from analog to PID controller to spend the extra money on a ramp soak controller, which I did.  My ramp soak can be programmed for up to 30 steps.  I want to heed your advise and normalize the spring before hardening.  That suggestion makes perfect sense as the spring has not been heated up evenly after heating and arching.  I would like to know if you would give me a suggested set of parameters for my PID for normalizing the spring.  I just replaced my heating element/insulation muffle in my furnace, after 20+ years of use the element broke, probably due to heating and cooling which made the element brittle, so I am ready to justify buying the ramp soak PID.
Thanks, Dave       
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: David Rase on September 15, 2019, 02:04:54 AM
Dave, Frank house posted on the CLA fb page about how he tempers mainsprings now. I think he draws the temp back twice but not sure. I'm sure you can do a search and find it.
Brian,
Funny you should mention double tempering.
I was just sent an email from a friend in Montana who told me about an article the read that stated,  "In tempering high speed steel tools, it is common practice to repeat the tempering operation or "double temper" the steel..... After the first tempering operation, some untampered martensite remains in the steel. This martensite is not only tempered by a second tempering operation but is relieved of internal stresses..."
David
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: smart dog on September 15, 2019, 02:11:02 AM
Hi David,
I would suggest normalizing at 1600 degrees for 5-6 minutes and let air cool slowly.  Probably best to just turn off the oven and let the spring cool inside with the oven.

dave
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: David Rase on September 15, 2019, 02:46:00 AM
Hi David,
I would suggest normalizing at 1600 degrees for 5-6 minutes and let air cool slowly.  Probably best to just turn off the oven and let the spring cool inside with the oven.

dave
Thanks
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on September 15, 2019, 07:43:18 PM
Here's a picture of the wheellock I made back in the last century.  As you can see the spring is made of pretty stout stuff.  I was lucky with the heat treat on this, simply making a sort of reflection kiln out of fire bricks and used two mapp gas torches for the heat source.  Very primitive, but the spring is still going 'strong'.


(https://i.ibb.co/sVRH1bJ/DSCN1501.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XCL85jk)
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 15, 2019, 08:08:37 PM
 Double tempering is a good idea if you don't have a furnace but it is not necessary if you do and you hold the temp for the proper amount of time. When I temper springs with a torch I usually double temper because it is hard to hold the temp, for 20 minutes. Normalizing is good before you harden. Those wheel locks are awesome Got to go the Seahawks are kicking off..
 
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Daryl on September 15, 2019, 09:43:20 PM
better parts picture of Taylor's wheel lock.

(https://i.ibb.co/YXBGyXR/Dag-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FX4t0Xx)
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Bob Roller on September 16, 2019, 12:00:46 AM
It's easy to see why only wealthy folks could have one of these locks AND
the gun.I wonder how they did it without pyrometers and spring material
that may or may NOT be spring material?
I remember reading an article by Lucian Cary many years ago about an
old man in Kentucky,I think his name was Wyatt Atkinson who made
his springs by forging a cold chisel out to whatever was needed.Where there's
a will there IS a way.
Once in a rare while I will do a "redrawn"spring by drawing it again after
polishing to a bright finish.I play the flame over the spring until I get the
deep purple or indigo I want and then quit.It makes the spring even better
looking and does not seem to harm the reliability a bit.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 16, 2019, 03:11:37 AM
Bob I use to wonder the same thing. How they did it without a pyrometer or a furnace. Once I was working on an original English lock and was studying the tool marks and such for clues. On two different locks I noticed  that there was some lead in between the leaves of the main springs. That was the clue that led me to the lead bath tempering method. Lead melts at about 625F. So for a long time I used that method. I use to set the lead pot right in the forge.  I also noticed that on some broken springs there was visable layers of the steel. I think some gunsmiths made their own cruciple steel for springs.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Gunnermike on September 16, 2019, 07:53:39 AM
I made a wheellock last year and tempered it with an acetylene torch and dunked it in vegetable oil and this happened -

(https://i.ibb.co/CWj01SV/100-0763.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qxH1y2m)

I was posting the build on another muzzle loading site and a moderator recommended 10-20 minutes in a 700-750F lead pot for the new mainspring, so I did 15 minutes at 720F -

(https://i.ibb.co/SdmZhrd/100-0775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qWg2t5W)

That seemed to work okay:

(https://i.ibb.co/Dt9K4Lw/100-0840.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SPtvNJV)

(https://i.ibb.co/fHPgDY5/100-0836.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WfYhVWw)

I still need to re-harden the parts, the small parts got hard, but the larger parts not so much!
Mike
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Rolf on September 16, 2019, 10:17:11 AM
Impressiv wheelock, Gunnermike! Thats alot of work. Is it for a rifle?

Best regards
Rolf
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Jim Kibler on September 16, 2019, 05:07:42 PM
Guys,

i have made a great number of springs using 1095.  Heat to 1450, quench in brine without stirring or swirling the part.  Temper at 810.  Please realize that the heat treating of steel will not effect the load/deflection property in any way - not at all.  Identical springs tempered at 650 or 750 or 850 will all have an identical load/deflection characteristic.  The only way to make a spring stronger or weaker is to change its physical shape, size, or thickness.

Here is a quote from people who know:

The Iron Age Volume 89 May 9, 1912, page 1151

The stiffness of a piece of steel cannot be increased by alloying nor by heat treatment.  By this I mean that provided the elastic limit is not exceeded, the amount of deflection for a given load cannot be decreased.  However, heat treatment will raise the elastic limit so that a much greater load can be carried without causing a permanent set.  Until the elastic limit is reached all steels, no matter how treated or of what nature, will deflect the same amount under the same load.  However, the poorer grade steel or the un-heattreated one will reach its elastic limit first and will then deflect much more and retain a permanent set.


Jim

James,

Thanks for the exerpt from the Iron Age book.  This is a very true statement that everybody interested in springs should understand.  It's something that I've mentioned many times in the past.  Believe it....  This is coming from a former metallurgist.  Only one more thing to add.   Temper at the highest temperature such that your spring still returns to the previous un-stressed dimensions.  That is, it doesn't develop a "set".  This will make it less susceptible to defects, stress risers etc.  This temperature WILL vary with steel grade or alloy.

Jim
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: smart dog on September 16, 2019, 05:44:39 PM
Hi,
Let me clarify something.  When I mentioned heating to 800 and see if the spring is too weak, I was referring to a temper that might be too high to prevent set from occurring resulting in a weak action.   

dave
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 17, 2019, 10:41:29 PM
This comment is not intended for anybody. Just a general tip. When you read something in a book or hear information given orally try it out for yourself on some unimportant piece for your self.  I have read tons of false info in books.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Joe S on September 17, 2019, 11:51:45 PM
Jim

Can you recommend a book or other source that gives spring temper information for various steels?  I have looked and I can't find anything useful. Thanks.

Joe
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Jim Kibler on September 18, 2019, 12:26:34 AM
Well, the best advice I can give is to shoot for a hardness of about 45 HRC.  Perhaps a few points less rather than more.  When you've decided on your steel to use, do a search for a tempering temperature (tempering curve or tempering chart) that will yield this hardness.  Temper at this temperature.  I don't really know what to suggest as far as books.

All the best,
Jim
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Bob Roller on September 18, 2019, 01:40:29 AM
Bob I use to wonder the same thing. How they did it without a pyrometer or a furnace. Once I was working on an original English lock and was studying the tool marks and such for clues. On two different locks I noticed  that there was some lead in between the leaves of the main springs. That was the clue that led me to the lead bath tempering method. Lead melts at about 625F. So for a long time I used that method. I use to set the lead pot right in the forge.  I also noticed that on some broken springs there was visable layers of the steel. I think some gunsmiths made their own cruciple steel for springs.

Jerry,
I have in years long gone tried most of the tempering methods including the
molten lead.After I got some 1075 from P.I.Spence of Marietta,Ohio in 1957
and having watched George Killen here in Huntington draw to a color I settled
on that material and that method and I think over 50 years of successful lock and trigger making
has proven,at least to me that I did use good material and a reliable method.
I have no oven or pyrometer but do have a lot of spring making experience.
At this point in time I am concentrating on double set triggers and am happy
with the results and sales thanks to this forums readers.
I have lead but seldom melt it and even with a new AC it heats up the shop
more than I want.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: David Rase on September 18, 2019, 05:44:48 PM
Good news, my long awaited ( 6 plus weeks) new heating element for my heat treat furnace is being delivered today.  Time to normalize the spring, finish up the file work, and get to hardening and tempering.  Hope to see this project wrap up this week. 
David
Below is a photo of the work in progress.

(https://i.ibb.co/zNNzcD4/Ken-s-Spring.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JCC9Lgs)
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: 45-110 on September 18, 2019, 06:02:09 PM
Your picture explains all the hours you have in it. Its beautiful. Good luck with the heat treat.
kw
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 18, 2019, 08:52:36 PM
Bob. I have used the color method a lot and after one learns how to do it it works pretty good.
 And have used the lead method a lot because back then ,20 some years ago, I never knew a better method. When I use the color method I temper to a blue gray color and do it twice. The method I have the least confidence in is frying in oil. in the 1960s I knew a gunsmith who used the frying method exclusively but he had a high degree of failures and he finally paid me to make his springs for him. The other gunsmiths started buying my springs. Most of the springs I made then were shotgun mainsprings and top lever springs for double guns.   I usually made a dozen at a time. at first I had about a 15% failure rate and so I found a heat treating engineer and he told me what I was doing wrong. It was the time element. Also I was getting a lot of faulty steel from a supplier in Portland Oregon. Some steel suppliers will give you info on tempering springs if you request it. But all springs are not tempered the same, like coil springs so you need to be specific when asking. You probably know all this but maybe it will help  some of the other guys. 
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on September 18, 2019, 10:02:15 PM
Jerry, I really like your analogy of the spring as a cookie in the oven...even though it looks nice and cooked on the outside, doesn't mean that the inside is cooked.  Similarly, your spring may have a beautiful blue on the outside but the inside hasn't reached that temperature yet.  So the soak AT TEMPERATURE is vital.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: LRB on September 18, 2019, 11:09:24 PM
  A properly tempered spring will have no real colors. The heat range for good temper leaves only a gray neutral color.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: David Rase on September 18, 2019, 11:44:25 PM
I have never been able to use the color method due to my lack of being able to distinguish shades.  I can see primary colors but not shades.  Been a hurdle for me all my adult years.
David
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Joe S on September 19, 2019, 12:45:59 AM
Jim

I followed your advice, and found a couple of references for tempering temperature and hardness for carbon steel. According to the chart in anvilfire.com, HRC 45 is reached at a temperature of 630o (F), so just above blue.  According to Heat Treating Data Book - 10th Edition E-Book - Seco/Warwick, HRC 45 is reached at 900o. Also, per the latter reference, “a typical steel spring has a Rockwell hardness of 38 … on the C scale”. This implies a tempering temperature of 800o on the anvilfire.com chart, and about 950o in the latter reference’s chart.

I don’t feel like I’ve learned anything. Folks on the ALR site apparently make functional springs at temperatures of about 570o (blue) to 800o, with carbon steels ranging from 1070 to 1095.

I’m a little bit baffled as to why spring tempering information is so difficult to come by. This is not rocket science.  It would be very simple to do the basic testing, and write a single equation for hardness as a function of tempering temperature for all of the relevant carbon steels.  Then hardness could easily be related to the various spring characteristics, such as yield point and fatigue limit. I’d think that this information would be in a Metallurgy 101 textbook somewhere, but I can’t find it.  Even my old standby Machinery’s Handbook isn’t helpful.

It seems to me that Jerry Huddleston remains our best source of knowledge on this topic.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: jerrywh on September 19, 2019, 04:33:13 AM
Jose Gordo.
   There is a good chance that the differences in temperatures can be explained by the type of spring they are referring to and then again it could be due to what I said before about not believing everything you read in books.  The low temps given for temper could be for coil springs and the high temp for leaf springs. After years of trial and error myself as well as other good spring makers have mostly decided on a temp for V springs of between 720 and 800°F and retain that temp for at least 20 minutes. It is a pain in the rear end to melt a lead pot for one spring but it is better than making a new spring.  Lead melts at about 625°F but in melting a pot of lead the bottom of the pot reaches about 750 or 800 before the top is melted then shut off the heat. The spring should be held under the surface until the lead re hardens. This will take care of the time factor. Then re heated until the springs pops to the top. Then you can take it out of the lead and rap in on a wooden block a couple of times, that will knock off most of the lead. The spring should be smoked before putting it in the lead to prevent the lead from sticking to it.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Jim Kibler on September 19, 2019, 05:29:03 PM
Jim

I followed your advice, and found a couple of references for tempering temperature and hardness for carbon steel. According to the chart in anvilfire.com, HRC 45 is reached at a temperature of 630o (F), so just above blue.  According to Heat Treating Data Book - 10th Edition E-Book - Seco/Warwick, HRC 45 is reached at 900o. Also, per the latter reference, “a typical steel spring has a Rockwell hardness of 38 … on the C scale”. This implies a tempering temperature of 800o on the anvilfire.com chart, and about 950o in the latter reference’s chart.

I don’t feel like I’ve learned anything. Folks on the ALR site apparently make functional springs at temperatures of about 570o (blue) to 800o, with carbon steels ranging from 1070 to 1095.

I’m a little bit baffled as to why spring tempering information is so difficult to come by. This is not rocket science.  It would be very simple to do the basic testing, and write a single equation for hardness as a function of tempering temperature for all of the relevant carbon steels.  Then hardness could easily be related to the various spring characteristics, such as yield point and fatigue limit. I’d think that this information would be in a Metallurgy 101 textbook somewhere, but I can’t find it.  Even my old standby Machinery’s Handbook isn’t helpful.

It seems to me that Jerry Huddleston remains our best source of knowledge on this topic.

Tempering temperature to get a hardness of 45 HRC varies with alloy or grade of steel.  For example, 1040 steel might be in the range of 600-700F but O1 steel would be closer to 1000F.  A simple process to follow:

Pick a grade of steel suitable for springs
Look up the recomended hardening temperature and quenching procedure.  Use this.
Look up the temperature to get around 45 HRC and temper at this temperature.  Hold at temperature for 15-20 minutes if possible. 

You're done.

I agree that there is a load of misinformation about heat treating springs. 

Good luck,
Jim
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: FDR on September 19, 2019, 06:53:30 PM
JOSE: here is the "Bible" on heat treating carbon steels. Everything you ever wanted to know!

https://www.amazon.com/Heat-Treaters-Guide-Practices-Procedures/dp/0871705206/ref=asc_df_0871705206/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583932700242497&psc=1

Expensive and very technical! 

Just ask a  retired knifemaker.

Fred
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: shortbarrel on September 20, 2019, 12:43:17 AM
I make springs out of Model T main springs. Never had one to break or take a set. If you go by the rules of hardening and tempering.Henry Ford bought the best steel he could get.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Joe S on September 20, 2019, 06:23:14 AM
Jim - Thanks. I will follow your advice.

Fred - I'm curious, but at $349 a copy, I'm not that curious.  I'll see if the library can get it for me.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Pukka Bundook on September 20, 2019, 04:40:48 PM
Jerry,

That is a good tip, to smoke the spring before dropping in the lead pot.
I have always had some lead stick so will do it your way now.

Many thanks,
R.
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: FDR on September 20, 2019, 07:38:42 PM

Fred - I'm curious, but at $349 a copy, I'm not that curious.  I'll see if the library can get it for me.

Jose: I have a copy of the second edition from 1982 when I started in the Knifemakers Guild. It is as advertised, everything you want to know about heat treating with charts on a variety of steels including all the common carbon steels. There is also one title "Tool Steels" by Roberts and Gray, from the same source, that is quite interesting. I have that one also.
I decided early on that to maintain the high level of quality in my knives I would send them out for heat treat. Paul Bos, the heat treater for Buck Knives, must have heat treated most of the Guild members knives at that time. They always came back individual blade certified and perfect. Over 400 knives and only one ever returned and that one for a handle material problem.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Tool_Steels_5th_Edition.html?id=ScphevR_eP8C

Fred
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: shortbarrel on September 21, 2019, 12:59:30 AM
The above me post above me said it all. Thanks
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: msellers on September 21, 2019, 06:21:13 AM
Jim - Thanks. I will follow your advice.

Fred - I'm curious, but at $349 a copy, I'm not that curious.  I'll see if the library can get it for me.
Try here, definitely more affordable.
https://www.thriftbooks.com/browse/?b.search=Heat%20treaters%20guide%20practices%20and%20procedures%20#b.s=mostPopular-desc&b.p=1&b.pp=30&b.oos
Title: Re: Spring information
Post by: Daryl on September 21, 2019, 08:03:05 PM
I noted with interest, Jerry's mention about smoking the spring to prevent lead from sticking (soldering) to it.
What I do with my lead bullet and ball moulds, is to spray then with MS Moly bullet coating spray, while I still
had some, but now that it is gone, I use Lyman Super Moly Spray Lube. It coats the moulds, and prevents lead
from sticking to them. It will do the same for springs & in no way effects them, other than you will not see colours
through the coating. Pretty sure, the thickness of the coating is not measurable.