AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: mountainman on September 17, 2019, 11:49:29 PM
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I was going to sight in a new rifle today, The first, and only shot I made was a free handed shot at 80 yards on a bear target, it got the bear target about right where I aimed, and slightly to the right.
felt pretty good about the shot for a first time, until I looked down into the pan, and here I see a little trace of the shooting patch protruding out through the touchhole, I'm like what in the world!! Never seen anything like that before, I was using a .62 Cal barrel, a clover leaf shooting patch .012 thick, a round ball .600 Cal.
Just wondering if you guys ever experienced that??
I did look to see if there was any other trace of the shooting patch on the range, couldn't find it, and I'm assuming it's all in the barrel, I couldn't pull it out with the cloth puller I did have, so now I have to go home and see if I can't pull it out, I may end up taking the breech plug off.
I remember as I was pushing the ball down the barrel, it went fairly easy, but I felt like it stayed on the patch, so anyways I'm wondering what your input is on that, or if you guys ever experienced that??? That's a new one on me..
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Maybe some patching/cleaning material left over from prior cleaning. Something that dropped off the end of the cleaning rod and you loaded over it. Being behind the powder, it stayed there. Just a guess. James Levy
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Sounds like a pretty good guess. :)
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I have to agree.
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Yea, I don’t see how the physics works any other way....
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Agree with the above.
Most likely I would have cut/burned off what was sticking out, poked the hole clear and reloaded.
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Yep your guess was right! I took the breech plug off, and discovered it was a shooting patch, I remember I was playing around one day last week with a round ball and a patch to see what size would seem to fit the best, and then I remembered, the ball had fallen down in the barrel and I forgot to retrieve the shooting patch and the only reason I knew it was a different shooting patch, it was a pillow ticking material which was a dead give away because, because of the cloverleaf material is different, anyways mystery solved actually over overloaded on another piece of material, what a relief!!!
My first shot out of a new gun always make me feel a little apprehensive!
So now I get to go out and shoot it again tomorrow!!
Thanks so much!!
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Good luck with that second shot !!!lol May it fall in the 10 ring. Best regards, t'other Mountainman--70 8) 8)
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What is more puzzling to me is how you managed to hit anything with that load!! Your patch material needs to be a disc or square of cloth, not a CLOVERLEAF, and it needs to be twice as thick for that undersized ball.
This has all been discussed ad nausium before, but here's the science...
Slug the bore: measure the slug to determine the dimension of your groove depth...and your bore dimension.
Subtract the diameter of your ball from the GROOVE DEPTH dimension, and divide that number by two. Add about .005" (five thousandths) that is the minimum patch thickness you need to fill the grooves and engrave the ball. Anything less will result in gas cutting/blow-by/burnt patches, and lousy accuracy.
Here's that translated: let's assume your groove depth is .010" though it is likely deeper. That means that the lead slug you hammered into and out of your bore is .620" + .020" (grooves opposing each other in the rifle) = .640"
Your ball you said was .600", so ... .640" minus .600" = .040". The patch goes completely around the ball, so now we just divide that .040" by 2 to get the MINIMUM thickness of the patch that will go to the bottom of the grooves...= .020" If you compressed the material when you measured it, like the ball does when you load it, then .020" is fine and is the minimum thickness that will seal your barrel. I'd go with .022" material thickness just to make sure that the patch compresses into the lead just a bit, to grip it firmly. If your bore is not frosted but is 'as new", this load will go down the bore with little effort, once it is started into the muzzle. This load will not thumb start...it'll require some effort to get it into the muzzle, but once started, it
'll load without any problem.
Hope I've hit the main points....
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Thanks Mountainman 70!
Taylor D I was wondering if I shouldn't go thicker, I thought it went down the barrel too easy, I have several different types of shooting patches that I was going to try, and the one kind I have is .020 thick, I am going to try them as well, just hope I don't have to bust my knuckles to get em down, ☺ the barrel is made by Bobby Hoyt and is 48" in length, and as far as groove depth, I didn't measure so I wouldn't know, and didn't know if they make them all the same or not as far depthness.
Maybe somebody on here might know.
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... the barrel is made by Bobby Hoyt and is 48" in length, and as far as groove depth, I didn't measure so I wouldn't know, and didn't know if they make them all the same or not as far depthness.
Maybe somebody on here might know.
When it gets down to .001's of inches you'll find that barrels vary a little bit (within specifications). You can pay more and get "less variance" in "match grade" barrels, but your standard barrels will vary some-- and that's why we measure.
Another method is to start your ball and lubed patch into the muzzle-just into the rifling and then pull the ball, and look for impression of the weave of the cloth from the grooves, not the lands. This doesn't give you any measure, but shows if you're getting some compression with that combination patch and ball--in that bbl.
Make a ball starter if you don't have one.
I figured "cloverleaf" was a brand name or something I didn't realize it was a patch shape. I cut mine from strips, they end up round enough.
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I too figured "Clover leaf" as a brand, like "Maple Leaf" up here...
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You can buy these Cloverleaf shooting Patches from Lehigh Valley's, same guy that makes the shooting patch lubricant and bore cleaner. We actually have them in our little store, ( the Cloverleaf patches ) but can't get the lubricants anymore. But we do have Mr. Flintlock's which I believe is the same.
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I tried those cloverleaf patches. They are so loosely woven that they blow apart.
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I used to be able to put pictures on this site, and now I can't figure it out, anybody know what I'm doing wrong?
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I used to be able to put pictures on this site, and now I can't figure it out, anybody know what I'm doing wrong?
Are you getting the Drag/Drop option?
"Add image to post" should be right under your reply window, and
"Attachments and other options" below that.
If you don't see those you need to change your "theme" to whatever one most of us are on. You'll be able to sort that out. The options doesn't show up in some of the themes, and some of us were/are on the other theme. I had to change mine.
I don't drag and drop, but select "browse your computer" to do it the "old fashioned way".
Maybe that helps?
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(https://i.ibb.co/BsPDR2G/IMG-20190918-161656515.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tChf5pz)
I think maybe I got the photo uploading
I was shooting today, and found my shooting patches, was using the cloverleaf.. I don't believe they hold up very well, EC121 you were right.
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That’s what .010 muzzle cut patches look like when I shoot em out of my .58 so I can thumb start em. I’ve never had much luck with thin or otherwise odd patching...
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That’s what .010 muzzle cut patches look like when I shoot em out of my .58 so I can thumb start em. I’ve never had much luck with thin or otherwise odd patching...
What kind of material do you use for shooting patches?
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That’s what .010 muzzle cut patches look like when I shoot em out of my .58 so I can thumb start em. I’ve never had much luck with thin or otherwise odd patching...
What kind of material do you use for shooting patches?
Oh I typically use .015, .018, or .02 pillow ticking. Works great. .010 100% Muslin cotton, which lots of folks use, gives me fits. I haven’t found an application for it yet that works. No matter the load, they come out looking like your pic. Blown.
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Mountainman,
I use old pure linen pillow-case material.
Hold it up to the sun, and if you can't see through it it's woven tight enough.
Mine's about 17 thou. No sign of burning when used with deer tallow, and I used to use these in a .54 with 120 grains.
Bit of wasp nest underneath in hunting season, where rifle was left charged for a long time maybe.
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Drop by your big box home home improvement store and check out their canvas drop cloths that painters use. I discovered they come in various weights/thicknesses and texture. I measured the four that I have and they ran from .018 to .022. All are heck for stout and tightly woven. If you can find one that suits you, they are a lot of material for the money! Just another option to consider.
j.B.
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The beauty of Pukika's linen, and the painter's drop cloth, is that those fabrics are vbery difficult to compress smaller with calipers, or between the ball and the bore of the rifle. So a slightly thinner fabric still works well...fills the grooves and engraves the lead. It is also imperative that the patch carry enough lubricant to soften ALL of the fouling from the previous shot, and push it with the ball down to the charge. Otherwise, eventually, you'll need to swab the bore between shots - most undesirable, IMMHO!
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A good way to test for patch thickness, is to follow Lyman's suggestions from the 75's book, Black Powder Handbook.
To do this, take a strip of patch material, wider than normal for strength. Lube a small spot in the middle, and push the ball into the
bore about 1/4" down from the muzzle's surface.
Gather the cloth and pull the ball and patchmaterial out of the bore. Look at the ball. It should have cloth weave marks on it, matching
the "CORRECT" ball's picture - page 53.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZxfhtRB/PB222271.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VTLvr0g)
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Dang, you guys are gettin' all sciency and cipherin'. I just use old pillow ticking and a .570 ball and around 90 grains of 3f. I don't know how thick my ticking is, but I use spit to lube. But hey, I'm just a simple guy. I do hit what I'm shootin' at though.
Ez
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"the "CORRECT" ball's picture - page 53."
I have not been able to achieve that patch impression on a ball with a recently made ML barrel for patched balls. The grooves are cut to deep.
Notice in the photo the barrel example has a bore diameter of 0.526" and a groove diameter of 0.503" The grooves are only 0.0035 deep or about 1/4 the depth of a modern ML barrel of that caliber.
The example is more like a button barrel for a cartridge gun. I can easily get that patch impression on cartridge gun button barrels that I have used to make ML rifles and pistols.
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Those canvas drop cloths are excellent patch material. I've been using this material for a good while and it does an excellent job. For me, at any rate, it's easier to seat than some thinner (yet still very good) material in the guns I use it in. Three guns prefer mattress ticking, pillow ticking or cotton duck. All the rest like the canvas.
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Drop canvas eh, I have some of that on hand and never even measured it. Hey it works for couch covers!
if you're single. :o
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"the "CORRECT" ball's picture - page 53."
I have not been able to achieve that patch impression on a ball with a recently made ML barrel for patched balls. The grooves are cut to deep.
Notice in the photo the barrel example has a bore diameter of 0.526" and a groove diameter of 0.503" The grooves are only 0.0035 deep or about 1/4 the depth of a modern ML barrel of that caliber.
The example is more like a button barrel for a cartridge gun. I can easily get that patch impression on cartridge gun button barrels that I have used to make ML rifles and pistols.
I have no trouble getting double compression marks in rifling to .016" deep per side.
Lyman's example is .526" groove to groove, subtract .503" land to land = .023" - divided by 2 = .0115 depth per groove, not .0035".
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Well I ended up making my own shooting patches with a door knob cutter, that is with the teeth grinded off and resharpened on the edges, I made them out of pillow ticking material around .019 thick tightly woven. It works great with bear grease. Shoots tight.
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Well I ended up making my own shooting patches with a door knob cutter, that is with the teeth grinded off and resharpened on the edges, I made them out of pillow ticking material around .019 thick tightly woven. It works great with bear grease. Shoots tight.
Good you got it worked out. What do your patches look like now? Reshootable is ideal, and I do.
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Here are a few targets shot with a .60 cal. Hawken rifle, using patches I had shot in my .69, ie: called reclaimed patches.
We re-lubed them with Mr. Flintlock's lube and fired away. There are minute changes, group to group. The barrel on that
rifle was one of Hugh Tonges bl., with .028" deep rifling. There was no wiping, no swabbing, nor cleaning of the barrel while
shooting that day. All shooting was at 50 yards & all groups are 5 shots, except maybe the first one, that might be 6, not sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/XDqx1jg/100-8103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w7fhVBX)
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Good you got it worked out. What do your patches look like now? Reshootable is ideal, and I do.
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I never even gave it a thought about reusing them, Wow! Well I believe I could have reused them I found most all of them in one piece, they were frayed a little around the edges, except for the first shot , it was one that I had cut out by hand, that one was smoking when it came out the barrel, and when I came to it, it was burned to a crisp, but then I didn't use bear grease on that one, I had used Shenadoah Valley patch lube the night before, and put it in my ball block, I believe it had dried out some by the time I loaded it, but after that I greased them all with bear grease didn't seem to have any trouble after that.
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good thing you noticed it was down there. It could've been smouldering, ready to set off your next load as you loaded it.
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Justin - it was on the ground.
"that one was smoking when it came out the barrel, and when I came to it, it was burned to a crisp"
Smoldering patches can only happen with gross amounts of blowby.
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A few times I've (just being contrary) picked up my fired patches, lubed them and reused them. In my BP career I never had a patch smolder nor any smoothbore material. I certainly acknowledge the possibility, however remote.
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Justin - it was on the ground.
"that one was smoking when it came out the barrel, and when I came to it, it was burned to a crisp"
Smoldering patches can only happen with gross amounts of blowby.
Ah. I meant the piece in the barrel could've been smouldering. I've seen a handful that others have shot smouldering in my shooting days.
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"the "CORRECT" ball's picture - page 53."
I have not been able to achieve that patch impression on a ball with a recently made ML barrel for patched balls. The grooves are cut to deep.
Notice in the photo the barrel example has a bore diameter of 0.526" and a groove diameter of 0.503" The grooves are only 0.0035 deep or about 1/4 the depth of a modern ML barrel of that caliber.
The example is more like a button barrel for a cartridge gun. I can easily get that patch impression on cartridge gun button barrels that I have used to make ML rifles and pistols.
A BORE diameter of .526 and and GROOVE diameter of .503.??????? Is not believing.
Bob Roller
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"the "CORRECT" ball's picture - page 53."
I have not been able to achieve that patch impression on a ball with a recently made ML barrel for patched balls. The grooves are cut to deep.
Notice in the photo the barrel example has a bore diameter of 0.526" and a groove diameter of 0.503" The grooves are only 0.0035 deep or about 1/4 the depth of a modern ML barrel of that caliber.
The example is more like a button barrel for a cartridge gun. I can easily get that patch impression on cartridge gun button barrels that I have used to make ML rifles and pistols.
A BORE diameter of .526 and and GROOVE diameter of .503.??????? Is not believing.
Bob Roller
Scota4570 had it backwards. The picture in the Lyman example shows .526" groove to groove, .503" land to land (bore diameter) as Daryl correctly pointed out above.
-Ron