AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: bcowern on September 23, 2009, 10:41:46 PM
-
I am new to this forum. My main interest in antique guns is single shot breachloading sporting and target rifles. I live in British Columbia and have always been fascinated by American Longrifles, however the ones that really turned me on were priced beyond anything I could afford and rarely seen this far west.
Many years ago, at a gunshow in Kalispell, Montana, I managed to trade 2 single shots for a nice Joseph Long flintlock longrifle. In a book called The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle by Henry J. Kauffman, there is a brief description of Joseph Long and his rifles that states: "Only one flint gun that he made is known, but he was a prolific producer of guns in the percussion era." Is this still the case or have others come to light since the book was published?
Regards,
Bradford
-
bcowern,
I've had a few Joe Longs and seen several more, but never a flint.
Now I'm not saying that this pertains to your rifle, but back in the 70/80s and even still today, more than a few original percussion guns were incorrectly converted to flint. Whether the person doing the work didn't know it was an original percussion rifle, or whether it was because flints generally bring more money than percussions is another subject.
Perhaps you could post a few pictures of your rifle, and there's several guys here that are familiar with Joe's work.
And whether your gun is an original flint, or percussion, Joe Long made quite nice rifles, and you're lucky to have one! Even though he's listed as a 'prolific' maker, there just doesn't seem to be that many of his guns around today.
John
-
Several years ago I owned a wreck of a Joe Long that had originally been a flintlock. That is the only one I have ever seen. Don Getz knows a lot about Joe Long, maybe he advise if he has seen any.
Frank
-
John.....I have seen several original flint Joe Long guns. As a matter of fact, my brother Dick owned one. Several years
ago a descendent of Joe Long who lives down in the Phila. area of the state bought a gun that was originally built as a
flint. My brother Dick and Dalas Ewing were good friends and did a lot of gun hunting, that is, looking for Joe Longs.
They discovered several flint guns, and what was unique about them was the fact that he dated them on the bottom of
the barrel, so, it would appear that even Joe felt they were unusual. Another interesting thing I found about Joe Long.
I went to the KRA show several years ago, and Howard Fundukian, from Michigan, called me over to his table to look at a
butt stock he had just purchased, and he asked me what it was. I looked at and said it was Joe Long, all the way. It
was broken thru the lock area and all he had was the rear portion. It suddenly dawned on me that it had an inlet for a
mule ear lock, which is rather unusual for a Joe Long. But, on the other hand, he did spend time working with Morrison
in Milton, Pa., who made a lot of mule ear guns. It's fun to study these things.........Don
-
I'm not sure how to post photos. Here's my first attempt.
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0504.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0505-1.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0506.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0508.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0507.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0511.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0511.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0512.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0514.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0515.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0516.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0517.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0518.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0519.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0520.jpg
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0505.jpg
-
Sorry for the double listings in my last post. Here is one more photo.
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/?action=view¤t=IMG_0521.jpg
-
It's a little easier to get to with this link. You can pick the picture you want. I'll post one picture to wet everyones whistle.
Thanks for sharing the pics.
http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/ (http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/bcowern/)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt56%2Fbcowern%2FIMG_0520.jpg&hash=db76ab81c0f6b61a9580963e4dee7768dee56a16)
-
It's surely a fabulous rifle and I've enjoyed viewing the images of it.
It truly appears to my untrained eye that it is an original flintlock action. I have no way to determine if the lock is original to the rifle though. Unusual that it has no frizzen bridle. Still, it looks like a well made lock in excellent condition.
The whole rifle is exciting!
Thanks for showing it off. By the way, there may not be many original longrifles out here, but there's lots of contemporary longrifles. And in a price range that a working stiff can afford too, IMHO.
Welcome to this incredible web site. You'll love it here.
-
Of note, Edith Cooper in her book " The Kentucky Rifle and Me", Published in 1977 but reflecting on her collecting/collection between 1933 and 1953 shows thirteen Joseph Long Rifles. None pictured are flint!
-
Thanks for sharing - a great rifle and perhaps the best thing about it is that it truly
appears to be 100% untouched and original - something you see very seldom anymore - hopefully you'll hang on to it and leave hanging over your fireplace :)
-
Clean late flint. Looks like a really nice rifle. Don, when would you date that "Warranted" lock? Wayne
-
Wayne.....not sure on the date of the lock, looks to be appropriate for the time frame when Joe worked. I recall that Dick and Dalas Ewing turned up a Joe Long flint rifle that was built around 1840. That just shows that they worked much like
the gunsmiths of today, they built what the customer wanted. I also recalll that Dalas bought a Joe Long rifle shortly before he died, he got it from somewhere out west. Surprisingly, it was built in 58 cal., which is huge by his standards,
one rarely sees a Joe Long in a big calibre.............Don
-
Great looking rifle - thanks for sharing.
On the lock - the cock is a a good match with the plate. However, the pan has a different patina than the rest of the lock, and the lack of a bridle is surprising on this late of a lock of this quality and style. However, this could have simply been a repair of a very badly corroded origninal pan. What does the touchhole area of the barrel look like?
Regard
DB
-
Bradford,
You got a great rifle in that trade, and thanks for posting the pictures!
I like Joe Longs work, and it seems your gun has come down in fine condition!
Regarding the lock, it does seem strange having a briddle-less pan, and also with the amount of wood burned away between the lock and the tang, I would suspect that at some point in its life the rifle had a percussion lock. This is not meant as a criticism of your rifle, just an observation.
It looks like you've taken good care of the gun by leaving the patina intact, and I think it looks great just the way it is!
I'd also suggest that this rifle would be a good candidate for inclusion to this site's Library of guns. Perhaps Nord or Hurricane can post info on submitting it.
Thanks again for pics of your rifle!
John
-
Just go to the Library section for instructions...
E-Mail data to <nordata@earthlink.net> or <parifles@earthlink.net> and I'll take care of the rest.
By the way... Nobody could deny the Morrison connection on this one. Had I not have known better I'd have called Morrison before any thought of Long. Have a look at the Morrison mule ear on exhibit and you'll get my point.
-
Swampwalker,
Here are a few photos for you of the touchhole area and the underside of the pan.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt56%2Fbcowern%2FIMG_0075.jpg&hash=9d1263189dcd6fbd51ff2a4ebcf7cc239f7f1e6c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt56%2Fbcowern%2FIMG_0074.jpg&hash=21beaa42a42fbe44fbe2fd94f49bbb106c8c6867)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt56%2Fbcowern%2FIMG_0072.jpg&hash=2fe37794f63bdc6f52e2a83e92ed525ad19b3224)
Regards,
Bradford
-
The touchole being slightly forward of centre!! Does this tell us that ol Joe Long had screwed up or was he leaving room for that fouling rock to build up ::) ???
-
Or was he trying to line up the rear fence with the rear of the barrel. I shouldn't stir the pot but couldn't help it. ;D
Bruce
-
One more photo of the touchhole area.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt56%2Fbcowern%2FIMG_0078.jpg&hash=d2b4e76d2f9142440d8afc660eea5f826e773825)
-
Bradford;
Thanks for the additional pictures - if it is a conversion job, it's a very good one. A bridle-less pan on this style of lock is not without president. The more I look at it, the more I'm inclined to think the gun was originally flint, and there's no visible evidence of alteration of the touchhole, unless it was very expertly aged back to match existing metal.
Regards
DB
-
If someone did a re-conversion on that lock it sure is well done. While the frizzen is not connected with a bridal on the outside, which is somewhat unusual for a warranted lock, maybe it just proves that you can't say they never built them
that way. It sure looks right to me.....would love to own it...........Doon
-
A few other things to think about concerning Joe Long. In Edith Cooper's book she makes the statement that over the
years of their collecting, they owned 234 (I think this is the number) Joe Long rifles. Difficult to tell how many he may have made in his lifetime. I know that he worked with Morrison in Milton, Pa., but am not sure when. I saw a rifle at the
Pottstown show that was signed on the barrel "Morrison & Long", interesting.................Don
-
Many thanks to all who have taken the time and effort to respond to my question. I am in awe of the collective amount of knowledge on this site and congratulations to whomever is responsible. I fell in love with the Joe Long rifle the moment I held it. All of the elements flow together in a way that is very pleasing to my old eyes. This does not come across very well in the snippets of the rifle I have posted and I will try and get some photos of the entire rifle from various angles.I am far from an expert on American longrifles and this is the only flintlock I have ever owned.
I have seen Edith Cooper's book and noted that none of the Joe Long cap guns pictured have the birdshead escutcheon ahead of the football shaped side piece present on my rifle and, as can bee seen, the patina on the escutcheon is a match with the rest of the rifle. This led me to think this gun was likely originally a flintlock and not a converted cap gun.
Don Getz mentioned that his brother Dick had discovered that Joe Long flintlocks were dated on the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps he would share with me the dates he knows about. I do not have the courage, confidence, or expertise to separate the barrel from the stock on my rifle.
And again thanks to all who have replied.
Regards,
Bradford
-
Since you point it out, the fence/bbl. matchup isn't so bad, is it? Also, I have seen a lot worse touch hole matchups and they were being touted as original flints.
Now for a statement of pure opinion...guys, have at it. Of the lock, stock and barrel, the lock is the least important component. If the wood is carved and righteous with classic, crisp architecture, and the barrel is unstretched and signed by a grand master, the specimen will fetch mega-dollars without a lock.
-
Brad.....sorry, can't remember that far back. I can only recall them talking about this......it was about 60 years ago. I
do know that brother Dick had a flint Long rifle that needed a lot of restoration to make it a whole gun. It could be that
it had a date on the bottom of the barrel, but, I don't remember. I also thought about "how did they know if the barrel
was dated on the bottom?" Most Joe Long rifles did not have the ordinary barrel hanger.....It was more of an "L" shaped hanger, and there were no visible barrel pins. You would "merely" remove the tang bolt and the slide the barrel
rearward to unhook it from the stock......that is probably why you would see broken stocks...........Don
-
Some would argue that we are all without president right now. Sorry, the English teacher coming out in me; sometimes it just can't be suppressed. As I said in another thread, you could take this lock, toss it in the river, and you'd still have a super rifle. The art and architecture are the principal issues for most experienced collectors. An entirely "as-issued" lock just makes the package especially rare and cool. Great gun.
The boys up the river probably are having heart palpitations over this specimen. I think the reason Joe did such a nice job on this one was that he had a Harrisburg gun he was trying to copy.
Hey Don, now that I have your attention, I have a complaint on your 46 1/2" light Dickert. Five shots, off the bags at 100 meters, 4 shots crack the same hole but I have one flyer an inch out. I think I have a bad barrel. Would you recommend recrowning it with a Dremel tool or bringing it back for a replacement? Wayne
-
Five shots, off the bags at 100 meters, 4 shots crack the same hole but I have one flyer an inch out.
The Law of Random Radial Dispersion states that it is impossible to put all shots thru the "same hole" with a rested gun.
-
I'm not sure about ol' Dons comment here;
"You would "merely" remove the tang bolt and the slide the barrel
rearward to unhook it from the stock......that is probably why you would see broken stocks...........Don"
I believe you remove the tang bolt and slide the barrel Forward.
Maybe that's why Don see's so many broken stocks! ;D
John
-
Joseph Long lived 1779 - 1872. Edith Cooper states that Joseph Long made flintlocks along with cap guns until 1840. I am guessing, but if Joseph Long underwent an apprenticeship, he might have been capable of producing a finished firearm as early as his mid teenage years. Would it be likely that he was self-taught? Does anybody know just what time period Joseph Long actually produced rifles?
A collector of antique firearms told me that locks were not marked WARRANTED until 1840. Can anyone confirm this?
Regards,
Bradford
-
TOF, I break rules daily, sometimes break records, too. My tale is consistent with the Principles of Blatant Blustering. I've heard such wild stories about "my gun and my accuracy at hundreds of yards" that I just needed to tell everybody about one of our regular range days. Incidentally, we in Harrisburg shoot at meters and allow our competitors to shoot at yards. It is a sort of handicap that we extend to our guests from out of town to help even things out. The last time we lost was 1951 when unexpected gusts of wind came by as we were squeezing off offhand shots at 500 yards. Some of us actually had shots out of the bull on that day. Bull running smoothly today. JWH
-
John....now you have me thinking, I don't recall if you pulled or pushed on the barrel, and I hate like heck to go down and
take mine apart just for argument sake. As for that agitator from Harrisburg, I'll be glad when the bottle is empty and we
can get some sensible talk out of him......Joe Long copying a Harrisburg gun? ha, ha, ha, ha............Don
-
Wayne......as for your shooting prowess, pretty good. But, I have a feeling it is like my trap shooting now. I used to be
a pretty good trap shooter, but, now if I run 25 straight I have to say to myself, "what did I do wrong?" Don
-
Don--
I haven't stripped a Long for quite a while, but if I am remembering correctly, I think you pull back when pulling out a barrel. You are going to say that is odd, but when they cut down a percussion period barrel, they often sawed off the business end instead of the typical cut off and set back (like a percussion to flint conversion). By doing so, the distances didn't change between the tang and rear pin and forward pins. I think they then cut open the hook so it was open in the front, for easy, rearward removal. By doing this, only the front lug had to be moved if they cut the barrel down behind the most foreward pin and lug.
I wonder whether all Long lugs are open or only the ones that were shortened? Most Long barrels are 38 to 40 inches, but for those that are 35 to 37, you often encounter equal inlay spacing. I query whether Long only made the lugs open later in years when making repairs or if he always built them with an open lug? Did he really build rifles with only a 35" barrel? Were many of the Long barrels originally 40 inches and most have been cut? Compare Cooper Plate Nos. 22 v. 23; and, No. 14 v. 16. Or, did he just build hook lugs and there is no reasoning behind it, except for ease in cleaning?
-
How on earth can you pull a barrel rearward with the breech hard against the stock there? Do you bend the stock down at the breech so that the barrel clears the wood, then pull it back? I doubt it! I'd guess the barrel must be moved forward to disengage the pins, and that the hook staples are open along their back ends for this purpose.
Enlighten me, please.
-
Spotzy.....If you look at Joe Long rifles, take note that almost all of the barrel pins are hidden under inlays. This kind of
shoots your thought about opening those barrel hangers later. Actually, if you intend to make a hanger in an "L" shape
you would do it differently than installing a staple. If you remove one leg of a staple, it will be rather useless. I will
have to take mine apart, just to satisfy my curiosity, but I still think you have to pull the barrel rearward to remove it. I
know, Taylor, this sounds kind of stupid, but I think this is the way they were made. I will have to take note of these items the next time I study some Joe Long rifles. If someone were to shorten a barrel on a Long rifle, and this seemed to
be a common practice, the guy that did it would either have to make new "L" shaped hangers and reposition them, or
merely install pins thru the stock which one could easily see. For all of you guys out there that own a Long rifle, check this out. I think I can say that all of the Joe Long rifles I have looked at have inlays out along the barrel, mainly to hide
those barrel pins. So many times we look at a gun and admire the whole thing, but fail to look at more of the details, such as these barrel pins....lets check them out, and report back......thanks...........Don
-
If you remove the barrel by pushing rearward, would the barrel remove itself under recoil? ::)
-
Of the two Longs I had, one was a swivel breech (and a great gun I might add) and I think the other just had regular barrel pins.
Just recently though I have seen a H. Carlile rifle with hidden pins,,,, and you pushed the barrel forward to remove it.
So I'll stand by my first 'forward' comment, and echo Taylor in how in the dickens can you push the barrel rearward with the breech up against the wood, not to mention the tang?
This is assuming that pushing it forward means toward the muzzle,,, and pushing it back means toward the butt?
I'll await further reports!
John
-
Now you have me doubting Don and my post about removing the barrel rearward. No, the breech is not "bendable" but I would like to see someone try that. Once you pull the tang screw, I think there is enough "play" in the hooks to pull up and then slide back. I don't have the rifle handy I am thinking of or I would pull it apart and add some certainty to this discussion.
When, saying that you pull back or rearward, we are in fact saying that you pull toward the butt. I agree that it might seem worthless to open up a hanger, but you would not have to reposition the hanger if you cut the barrel off at the muzzle, which is what I see on many Long (and other Upper Susquehanna rifles). Yes, some are shortened from the tang and this would require repositioning of the hangers or hooks. Before we go too far down this path, let's see what Don turns up in disassembling a Long.
-
I did look at my Joe Long rifle but have not yet tried to take it apart. It does have three inlays out along each side of the barrel, and no other pin holes showing. It does appear that the barrel was shortened at the muzzle. I will have to
measure it and try to determine how much may have been cut off. I may also stop at a house and walk in with a pocket
full of hundred dollar bills and try to buy that Joe Long I found several weeks ago. I think if I wave greenbacks at them
it should do the trick. It does need some restoration, but is far from a basket case. A few pieces of wood split out along
the barrel, and a strange conditon below the lock, not really sure how I would approach that. Will let you know how I
make out............Don
-
Bradford,
Great looking Joe Long rifle. Thanks for sharing the photos. I've never had a chance to take-down a Joe Long rifle myself. However, I did come across a reference to the "blind pin & hook" method of fastening a stock to a barrel in William Buchele & George Shumway's classic gun building book entitled "Recreating the American Longrifle" p. 37.
Some old gunsmiths of Bedford County, Pennsylvania, and in the nearby Potomac valley of Maryland and Virginia used a blind pin and hook to fasten the stock to the barrel. This was done in the late flint and percussion periods when parallel-sided barrels were being used. Hooks more or less like loops with the rear leg cut off were fastened under the barrel. Transverse pins were put through the stock and the ends of these pins were hidden with silver inlays. To put the barrel in place it was set in the channel a little ahead of the final position and then it was slid back so that the hooks engaged the pins.
Interesting topic. Hopefully someone can post photos of an original "blind pin & hook" barrel.
Mark Loudenslager
-
Hopefully someone can post photos of an original "blind pin & hook" barrel.
Restock of an original T. Barns, Greensburg, Indiana.
The pin is concealed within the pewter nosecap. To remove the barrel, the screw is removed from the tang. You grasp the forestock with the butt facing away from you and pull the barrel BACK and up.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FALR%2FT_Barns3.jpg&hash=014d0d41d767a864f4d89992ce8d418307c774c8)
The pin and hook layout look like this.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FALR%2Fblindhook.gif&hash=58a18c8f66c29c3da79d4e3e4d4e33ec677b6076)
-
Guess what? I stopped by this friends house, the one that has the Joe Long rifle, with $100 bills in my pocket, and the
wife said, "well, my son would like to have it, sorry". However, there might still be a chance. I know the son and it shouldn't be too long before he wants money, and so it goes.................Don
-
M Smith sent me a photo of a barrel off an original George Young rifle that has the hook facing rearward, which explains Don's statement about pulling the barrel BACK to remove it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FALR%2FGeorgeYoung.jpg&hash=85e4b1c33a44f860067aa405d701023eb58982b7)
-
Well it is an interesting :o picture but I don't see how it could work with anything other than a removable pin?? ??? I have made a couple that looked like that too....on accident :'( :'(
-
To remove the barrel you would have to first, remove the lock, then the tang bolt. You would then have to "bend" the
stock down until the barrel cleared the wood at the breech, then pull back on the barrel to unhook it. I guess that is why
you occassionally find guns with broken stocks...........Don
-
So you took your Joe Long apart, and that's the way it comes apart? ::)
The pic that TOF posted looks like a broken staple underlug.
I guess Henry Carlile had a better idea in pushing the barrel forward to remove it.
John :D
-
I find it hard to believe an original gun would be made with such a difficult method of removing the barrel.... and dangerous to the stock. Those old guys who made these guns were just too smart for that kind of awkward "reverse engineering." I'd like to know if the George Young gun in the "M. Smith" photo above had permanent pins (so barrel had to be slid to remove), or typical removable pins. I'd bet they were removable pins, and the barrel was removed in the normal manner, despite the non-standard "open" barrel loops. All the permanent pin guns I've seen have had the barrel slide forward (open end of barrel loops in opposite direction), as would be expected. Shelby Gallien