AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 12, 2010, 12:41:41 AM

Title: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 12, 2010, 12:41:41 AM

Can someone give me a web address or link to such a thing?

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: oakridge on February 12, 2010, 01:58:36 AM

If you're asking about a St. Louis Hawken, I've never seen, nor heard of such in original flint. I believe there is speculation that one or two known percussion Hawkens may have been born in flint. Others, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly chime in.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: louieparker on February 12, 2010, 03:17:45 AM

I agree, no flint St. Louis rifles are known. No real proof that any were made . I know of one that seems to have a flint  plate ,but that plate is in question . Full stocks were made all during the Hawken period , they were just a cheaper gun .  If anyone knows of an original flint J&S, I would certainly like to hear about it . Louie Parker

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 12, 2010, 08:33:16 AM

I agree with all of you.  I would like some directions to the full stocked percussion rifle to which you refer.  Is it in the Smithsonian?  Anyone have a Web link?

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: JoeG on February 12, 2010, 09:10:26 AM

I have seen that rifle in the Smithsonian many times.That Hawken rifle along with the Iron mounted Henry trade Rifle was no longer on display in the Smithsonian when I was there a few years ago. I inquired as to its were it was located and no one was able to to tell me. They suggested that it may have been moved to the NRA collection in Va.

The Hawken  was written up in about 20-25 years ago in the museum of the fur trade quarterly and before that there was a examination of it by John Baird in the Buckskin Report. Both articiles had good photos.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: JoeG on February 12, 2010, 09:29:04 AM

I looked on the MFT site

Volume 13:      Numbers 1-4   1977                Bound volume: $15
13:1      Pioneer Profile; The Beaded Glengarry; A Unique Southern Rifle
13:2      New Trading Post Memorial Near Chadron; The Greatest Years of Hide Hunting
13:3      Treaty Presents at Fort Laramie-1867; Trade Goods in Colonial New England; Collection Corner-The Buffalo Knife
13:4      The Kennett Hawken Rifle

The article is 13:4

I can't believe it was that long ago, I'm getting old

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: JoeG on February 12, 2010, 09:44:45 AM

I just remembered there is a good color photo of it on page 45
of R.L. Wilson's book  the Peacemakers

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Chuck Burrows on February 12, 2010, 11:25:10 AM

Pics of the Smithsonian Hawken - an 1850 era Sam Hawken built rifle

(https://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-smithsonian.jpg)

(https://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-smith-1.jpg)

As noted The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, vol13, issue 4 , 1977 has an article on the Kennett Hawken (another 1850's era fullstock - it's in the School of the Ozarks) which includes info on and photos of the Smithsonian Hawken....they sell scanned copies of the article alone. The lock is clearly a converted flinter and all other signs point to the gun being originally a flint. The tacks on the wrist are part of a repair and the fore end cap is Schnabel shaped.

Here are the best pics I have of the Kennett
(https://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-ozarks-1.jpg)

(https://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-ozarks-2.jpg)

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Swampwalker on February 12, 2010, 05:51:18 PM

Also, don't forget the two full stocked percussion Hawken rifles in the Cody Firearms Museum digital collection.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 12, 2010, 07:45:52 PM

Thanks everyone for your help.  Chuck, that is the rifle I was hoping to get another look at.  I am left scratching my head though...a flint lock from 1850.  All of the other characteristics of the rifle scream percussion era, as well as the date.  This rifle was obviously (to me, at least) a custom ordered rifle, by a flintlock enthusiast like you or me, but with money in his jeans.
thanks again....Taylor

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Dphariss on February 13, 2010, 06:48:33 AM

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 12, 2010, 07:45:52 PM

Thanks everyone for your help.  Chuck, that is the rifle I was hoping to get another look at.  I am left scratching my head though...a flint lock from 1850.  All of the other characteristics of the rifle scream percussion era, as well as the date.  This rifle was obviously (to me, at least) a custom ordered rifle, by a flintlock enthusiast like you or me, but with money in his jeans.
thanks again....Taylor

This rifle kinda sticks in the craw of the "no flintlock Hawken Mtn Rifles" crowd I think.
The rifle has a flint patent hooked breech with a drum screwed into the vent.
Lock was a waterproof type and has a fence on the plate yet. There is no fence on the standing breech.
The old "Buckskin Report" featured a article on the rifle. Goodwin had gone on record that it was a percussion rifle and had P.Oed JDB at friendship in discussing the rifle and JD then set him up and pretty well humiliated him.
I will e-mail you.

Dan

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: rich pierce on February 13, 2010, 07:16:22 AM

There are fullstock flintlock Hawken rifles from the flinlock era (not 1850).  They are Maryland styled longrifles.  Still no original fullstock, flintlock, 1820's or 1830's, St. Louis, Hawken rifles as far as I know, but it seems certain some were made there in that era.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Chuck Burrows on February 13, 2010, 07:22:33 AM

Quote

The old "Buckskin Report" featured a article on the rifle.

Do you have the issue date info for that article? I'd like to get a copy via ILL

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: bp on February 13, 2010, 08:32:47 PM

Wasn't there a gun with a Hawken signed barrel owned by a Koller (sp) that appeared to have been flint? If I remember correctly it had a 38 " barrel, tallow hole in stock, iron furniture and fixed breech with long tang?  This was written up in Buckskin Report or Muzzleblasts.  I probably could find the article. 
Bruce

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Randy Hedden on February 15, 2010, 08:41:29 PM

There is the James Clyman rifle that is a full stock Hawken flintlock rifle.  John Bivins wrote an article about it for "Muzzle Blasts" magazine maybe 30 years ago.  At that time the rifle was in the hands of Clyman's grand children in California where Clyman lived out his life after being a Rocky Mountain fur trapper and Indian fighter.  The rifle now resides with a lady who is a direct descendant of Clyman.

I don't really know if the rifle is a St. Louis product of the Hawken's or from earlier an earlier time.

Randy Hedden

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 16, 2010, 02:53:16 AM

Thanks Randy...that sounds interesting.  Can anyone suggest a means of retrieving that article?

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: albert on February 16, 2010, 07:17:04 AM

I have most of the older years of the magazine,and will look for it when i can

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 16, 2010, 09:32:04 PM

J Albert Miles...thanks in advance.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: JoeG on February 17, 2010, 03:58:49 AM

There is also a photo of a J. Hawken  St. Louis marked  .36 flint conversion in the Hawken Shop catalog


http://www.greenesgunshop.com/examples.aspx

Quote

Wasn't there a gun with a Hawken signed barrel owned by a Koller (sp) that appeared to have been flint? If I remember correctly it had a 38 " barrel, tallow hole in stock, iron furniture and fixed breech with long tang?  This was written up in Buckskin Report or Muzzleblasts.  I probably could find the article. 
Bruce

Fred Johnson took photos and measurements of that gun
 
There are photos of a copy of the Kroller rifle that he built in the Book Of Buckskining III
 they both have the same type trigger guard

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Whitedog on February 20, 2010, 05:58:25 PM

Here is a flintlock rifle that was sold at auction recently that was advertised to've been made by the Father of the Hawken Brothers' It went for a lot of money. I'm trying to remember who the auction house is...Anyway, I saved the pictures of it for reference. Not one made by the Brothers in St. Louis, but it IS interesting none the less.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc72%2FWhitedog333%2F1059.jpg&hash=e24709d4107f625cad6f0ef691bd4bcf937a4675)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc72%2FWhitedog333%2F1059a.jpg&hash=96976033c84071924412568e05a8a2964d6a38ab)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc72%2FWhitedog333%2F1059b.jpg&hash=a382d58fbaeddf7bad48703c76a4cb51aea74de1)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc72%2FWhitedog333%2F1059c.jpg&hash=8e0f60a1b112b3010368722cc4d7c41bfd3e6c22)

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: California Kid on February 20, 2010, 10:33:13 PM

This gun is in the ALR museum with more pics. I'm working on an interpretation of this gun right now.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: JTR on February 21, 2010, 10:11:06 PM

Quote from: California Kid on February 20, 2010, 10:33:13 PM

I'm working on an interpretation of this gun right now.

So quit wasting time, and get busy! ;D ;D ;D

John

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: stoneke on February 27, 2010, 07:24:00 PM

Taylor: I have 14 pictures of a Don Stith fullstock Hawken taken at Dixon's in 2008. I will have to learn how to zip these into a folder because they are detailed and quite large. Open to any suggestions from those who are more computer versed than I am.
Keith

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Dr. Tim-Boone on February 27, 2010, 08:20:07 PM

It is easy to post the pictures. You just have to upload them to a webpage and then copy the links for each picture and include them in you post as is explained on the tutorial

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0)    ;D ;D

You can upload photos to a website much faster than they can be emailed. Even those that are too big to be practically emailed.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle - Picture heavy
Post by: stoneke on February 27, 2010, 09:47:51 PM

Here are the pictures of a fullstock Hawken taken during on of Don Stith's excellent presentations of the Hawken rifle at Dixon's ML Fair in 2008. I hope that they are informative.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0640_edited-1.jpg&hash=b86da4ba7257c5bb3c82a15fbc52521cb0a2900b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0641-1.jpg&hash=c6390051f3a7d8a840b01de0f5c4f1139a0a57de)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0642-1.jpg&hash=8d5b37afce19d06a38bf432d1e4aaf9d87a58da1)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0643-1.jpg&hash=c3e0d2db0ab0030b25d28a34daebc5d7e06dd5a5)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0644-1.jpg&hash=b1e6b24c1291ebd538911762ad06784fd45090d5)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0645-1.jpg&hash=156fc848bb94c5fc61e021e393d8a14b4eb1188a)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0646-1.jpg&hash=01c2d294b27835b1b250a25b9212351d9ef95dd6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0647-1.jpg&hash=9ba9d0a95d60751f7f9e7d188b2cad928cdd3910)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0648-1.jpg&hash=1060a810f23cf676581bbf6946b1e90d1889f9e3)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0649-1.jpg&hash=4a8157c6c411b77ac344d9bae6c0ad7bbada5067)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0650.jpg&hash=7bfb924367d70cdc88c1b489139e8c87769bb29e)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0651-1.jpg&hash=83f725fd39d4d6646a030ce845a5a20dfd0d759d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0652-1.jpg&hash=5a942756c534ba1bee835ba50346adb8d6c71359)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee201%2FStoneke%2FIMG_0653.jpg&hash=e8788b0452e889460bef021ecbc2633284132114)

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: JoeG on March 05, 2010, 11:34:52 AM

I really like the look of the single trigger
 do you know if it is it a plain trigger or a set trigger?

Thank you for posting the pictures

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on March 06, 2010, 10:42:47 PM

Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread, and especially to those who took the time to send info via e-mail.  I have found it most enlightening and useful.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: stoneke on March 08, 2010, 03:52:38 AM

I am sorry, but I don't have any details on the trigger - whether set or not.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on March 08, 2010, 04:10:21 AM

I can say with fair confidence, that that is a simple trigger, not a set trigger.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Researcher on July 21, 2011, 03:41:06 PM

Hello
I registered because I had a detailed question about Samuel Hawken of St. Louis, as I've been researching his plains rifles - it was about his wife that died in 1821/22 - no one seemed to ever mention her name. In the meantime, I've come across his entire family tree - he was married twice - and thought I'd put it here, just in case. And since I've found my answer outside this forum anyway, it's 'only' a courtesy visit, and to thank you for all the great photos ...
Hawken Family History
http://www.millercountymuseum.org/080811.html
http://www.millercountymuseum.org/presidents/080811_02_HawkenFamilyHistory1.jpg
His first wife was Rosanna Oster, she died 1821; he remarried and the name of his second wife was Martha Ritchey.
cheers
Researcher

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Buck on July 21, 2011, 07:51:51 PM

California Kid,
I have this rifle in my collection, and was previously owned by a noted collector prior to it appearing on that web site. Its a beautiful rifle. I am curious about your interpretation, please tell.

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: Dphariss on July 22, 2011, 02:32:03 AM

Quote from: JoeG on March 05, 2010, 11:34:52 AM

I really like the look of the single trigger
 do you know if it is it a plain trigger or a set trigger?

Thank you for posting the pictures

Its likely a plain trigger. There is a 1/2 stock In "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" with a single trigger and there is one that was featured in MB with a single trigger and single key forend IIRC.

Dan

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on July 22, 2011, 03:13:10 AM

There are five full stock Hawken guns pictured in Gordon,s book, Great Gunmakers for the Early West Vol. III but sorry to say none with flint locks. The first one on page 363 and the second one on page 364 could have been flinters. Both guns are marked J&S Hawken and number one has what looks like a flintlock lock plate.    Smylee

Title: Re: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on July 22, 2011, 03:58:10 AM

I stand corrected on the previous post as the gun on 364 is a half stock. Looks early though.