AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Shop Made Tools => Topic started by: agaboric on March 15, 2010, 11:08:32 PM
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I was wondering if anyone of you guys and gals ever heard of using coke to "fix" rusty files. Since I have some that were given to me I thought I would try it out, but I sprung for the cheap stuff and I do not think that it worked real well. So does anyone have any input on this, and how should you take care of files so they do not get all rusty, should I coat them with a little bit of oil or just leave them in a bucket of water like I have been doing (just kidding). Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks,
Andy
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actually, coke makes a pretty good penetrant. ive never used it on files, but i would give it a try. i know it is pretty rough stuff (and i keep drinking it). mark
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You need to actually use real, original Coca Cola. That product has phosphoric acid in it. That is what dissolves the rust. It actually alters the molecular structure of steel.
Mark E.
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You need to actually use real, original Coca Cola. That product has phosphoric acid in it. That is what dissolves the rust. It actually alters the molecular structure of steel.
Mark E.
When you say I changes the metal, does it change it in a bad way that I should not use coke? I do not want to damage these files but some of them may not be any good anyway so I guess it does not matter to much.
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I think Mark meant to say it changes the molecular structure of the iron oxides, the rust. It is fairly gentel on the steel itself altough it does have some minimal activity. Phosphoric acid in much stronger form is an active ingredient in Parkerising, which may get you in some touble with traditionalists ;D Be sure to remove all of the coke residue.
I oil my files for metal working whem I am done. The ones for wood use I jaust brush off.
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I have never poured it on my files, but Coke will clean a battery terminal so an engine with a corroded one will start..
wicked stuff....
(and we regulate the sales of alcahol while the soda flows free... ;D)
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I actually meant that the phosphoric acid affects the bonds between crystals. I don't remember the mechanism. It has been over 30 years since college chemistry and metallurgy, but I remember the warning about keeping Coca Cola away from stressed steel. All engineering students at VA Tech were told the story of some researchers at Tech that were working with high pressure vessels. The steel in these vessels was extremely stressed. One a researchers spilled Coke on the vessel and left it over night. In the morning, the lab had been destroyed. The Coke had caused the pressure vessel to fail with explosive force. The take away was to never have Coke or anything with phosphoric acid in it anywhere near steel under pressure such as in metalurgical test cylinders. Perhaps someone else could enlighten us as to the mechanism.
That said, there should be no danger to files as long as you clean them off after removing the rust. By the way, Naval Jelly does the same thing as Coke given the same active ingredients.
Mark E.
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I have used muriatic acid to clean rust off metal. I have also heard that some use it to clean/sharpen files but I have not tried that. You can buy muriatic acid at most hardware stores. Its commonly used to clean brick.
Dennis
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Most of the commercial "rust away" rust stain removers found in the supermarket or hardware store home cleaning products areas have some form of phosphoric or "muratic" acid in them.
While they may remove rust they are dilute acids that present other hazards and must always be neutralized after use.
As to "sharpening" a tool it is only in the sense that they will remove rust that is clogging the teeth of old files and rasps. Its not a magic potion. If you have a rusty worn and battered file you may get rid of the rust but it'll still be a worn and battered file when you're done.
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I use muriatic acid all the time to clean files. It will not only remove rust but will remove all the crud a file card can not get out. I threw a file in the juice that I had loaded up with pewter from a knife bolster I poured. It cleaned the file just fine. I have never oiled them after but I guess you could. I wash them with soap and water. I think the acid etches them to a point where they seem to be sharper. Sometimes I leave them soak a few hours and sometime over night. I would not leave them sit forever though, just check em once in a while.
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Boggs Tool Sharpening in California use an acid process (they call it liquid honing) to sharpen files. They come well-recommended on some of the woodworking forums. Cheap too...which is always good.
John.
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Not too long ago (beginning of the 20 Century) when files were hand cut,good files were expensive and hard to come by. Sharpening in acid (vitriol, or muriatic) was fairly common, as opposed to sending it to be reground and recut .You could squeak a bit more use out of dull or plugged file with this method. I have hand cut files and rasps and experimented with this technique, but have found that nothing will touch a new good quality file. IMHO keeping your files clean and protected, and sorted for use, will make them last much longer than abusing them , or buying used ones and attempting to sharpen them in this way...... :) Kerry
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When using muratic acid to redress the files do you need to dilute the solution or just put them in and be done? Also how long do you leave them in the acid? It sounds like I will give this a shot and like one said if the file is wore out and then pit it and move on. Thanks everyone for the good advice.
-Andy
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I may have posted this before but here goes anyway.
While working at Shiloh Wolf bought a acid file sharpening system.
Yes it will sharpen files. BUT it also puts a "tooth" on the surface and material be it wood or metal bonds to this with wonderful tenacity. So one spends about as much time trying to clean the file as using it.
So when a file wears out, be a it a $5 mill file or a 50 dollar item it goes to the scrap file pile.
Though I admit I tend to hang onto the Pattern Makers rasps even when pretty dull.
Dan
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Dan, the only thing I would question is the "scrap file pile" I always think of it as the new knife and tool stock pile :)
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I use dilute nitric to clean files. It does etch tyhem as dan said, but it will give a file fome new life till your replacement comes in.
Dan, if you have any Grobet pillar files in the scrap heap, they are worth about $10 a pound to me. Make the best tools.
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Dan, the only thing I would question is the "scrap file pile" I always think of it as the new knife and tool stock pile :)
I don't actually throw files out for obvious reasons.
But for most tools I have found its usually less time consuming to start with a piece of annealed O-1. It makes superior chisels and scrapers. As a result I use fewer files for tools now.
Dan
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I agree on the 01. I like the old file stock for scrapers, strikers and frizzen soles. I haver never liked it for knives. I also suspect some of the newer files have strange parentage and I do scrap them.
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Dan, the only thing I would question is the "scrap file pile" I always think of it as the new knife and tool stock pile :)
I don't actually throw files out for obvious reasons.
But for most tools I have found its usually less time consuming to start with a piece of annealed O-1. It makes superior chisels and scrapers. As a result I use fewer files for tools now.
Dan
Dan, Where can one buy O-1 steel online??
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Use white vinegar to clean and sharpen files. Soak them overnight, they will be covered with a fine soot-like coating, wash them in running cold water while brushing with an old tooth brush, dry with a clean rag or paper towel. Give them a light coat of oil. The vinegar is dilute (3 or 4 per cent) acetic acid. The fumes are harmless, and the action is slow so if you have let them soak longer than overnight no harm is done. Use the cheapest vinegar, no need to get some fancy name brand. Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid, using it calls for some precautions. The fumes are very dangerous to breathe, and the liquid will burn your skin. To top it off, the fumes will cause all the iron or steel in your shop to rust. Nitric acid is even worse. John
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Where can one buy O-1 steel online??
You can get the O1 steel here.
www.texasknife.com/ (http://www.texasknife.com/)
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or you can get it from Fastenal for pretty cheap
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I've heard that sulfuric acid is good for sharpening files. I don't know about concentration -- never tried it.
Oneshot
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I concur with Mr. Stein. I soak my files in white vinegar till it turns black. After removing the files I let them dry and the coat them with chalk. Simple and inexpensive.
H. Calsore Cozgrave, a good friend of Notary Zojack.
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A toilet bowl cleaner that goes by the name of "The Works" has hydrochloric acid in it. About a 15% solution, I believe. Dilute it again with water, about 2 parts water to 1 part Works. It will take off rust, browning and bluing like you wouldn't believe. This is the stuff in the gray bottle and can be had for a couple of bucks at the grocery store. Check the label.
I also use it to etch barrels before I put the first coat of browning on. Wash the barrel down with this acid solution and let it set for a time then rinse completely and wash barrel with a grease cutting soap and rinse and dry. The acid will just etch the barrel a tiny tiny bit and give the browning solution a good bite. Not a necessary step but it helps me.
I found a finer toothed cabinet makers rasp, #50 I believe, at a second hand store for a couple of bucks. It was pretty rusty and in bad shape but after soaking it in this stuff overnight and cleaning with soap and water I got it back in service. Good enough to shape horns with.
A must is to use rubber gloves when messing with this stuff. If you have cuts or abrasions on you it will burn like crazy and cause an infection type sympton in a big hurry.
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I just tried the vinegar soak for a bunch of speacilty files that I was given. Some rusty and some clogged. WOW what a difference. I may be able to use them for a good while longer. Thanks for the tip. Oh and I perfer Mt Dew (not Coca Cola) but not for files ;D
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The phosphoric acid matter is serious and care should be taken to never have it come into contact with springs and highly-carborized steel that is to be stressed or flexed.
My story of hard knocks: Naval jelly is full of phosphoric acid and does a great job of eating oxide, but I've learned the hard way to apply it only to mild steel and non-flexing steel surfaces after I broke all the original springs on a Civil War-period Austrian Lorenz rifle musket after treating the lock interior with naval jelly. The original springs, which had been flexible & strong before, unknownst to me became brittle and cracked from tiny fissures etched into the surface after the naval jelly exposure. VERY disappointing, but The Rifle Shoppe repro springs filled in nicely eventually. Still, I felt [still feel] like a jerk for breaking the originals.
yr servant,
Rich Colton
Montague, MASS
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Dan, Where can one buy O-1 steel online??
I like dealing with these guys.
http://www.admiralsteel.com/shop/
Sean
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I have to agree with the vinegar soak mentioned a couple times in this thread. I had some old files that I'd inherited from family and friends over the years. Many were rusted and so clogged they were useless. I made a cylinder tube from PVC pipe, threw the files and vinegar in and let them soak for a day+. I'm amazed at how well they came out, clean and sharp. While not like new, they are now useable. And the vinegar scent in the workshop was much better than that of many acids. :D
Bill
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I have heard of using CocaCola (aka "Coke") to clean rust, but never tried it, although i've used naval jelly, which i have come to understand is very similar in chemical action.
The problem, i suspect, is similar to that of using the electrolysis (ww?) method (where you stick the rustythingy in a bucket of baking soda solution and run an electrical current through it): you'll end up with no (or very little) rust, but the pitting will still be there.
It couldn't do too much harm, so it's probably worth a try, but i wouldn't bet my horse and sword that it'll work. If it does, i would rub chalk (sidewalk chalk works for me) into the deep grooves, and card the files fairly often. If you keep after this, and you keep the handles tight (you do have handles on all your files, don't you- no fibbing, 'cause we can tell), you should get a good bit of use out of your files, but they're an expendable tool, sadly enough.
Best of luck with your project!
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I can't lay my hands on the Company name but they are a machine shop tool repair outfit in Pasadena CA. They sharpen files like new. I've sent them about 15 worn out files and they return in bright beautuful condition. They examine each file and (I think) if it's Asian made they charge you .25 cents for the exam and send it back not worth trying. But, every one of my American or European file came back looking clean and working like new. They charged me about $1.50 per file. I went through my files about a month a month ago and threw away anything that was off shore junk. I still have a lifetime's worth of files - mostly flat bastards. They are like lint - they just collect everywhere. Most are 10 inch. Wish I had some 8".
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Use white vinegar to clean and sharpen files. Soak them overnight, they will be covered with a fine soot-like coating, wash them in running cold water while brushing with an old tooth brush, dry with a clean rag or paper towel. Give them a light coat of oil. The vinegar is dilute (3 or 4 per cent) acetic acid. The fumes are harmless, and the action is slow so if you have let them soak longer than overnight no harm is done. Use the cheapest vinegar, no need to get some fancy name brand. Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid, using it calls for some precautions. The fumes are very dangerous to breathe, and the liquid will burn your skin. To top it off, the fumes will cause all the iron or steel in your shop to rust. Nitric acid is even worse. John
I pretty well agree with this method (cleaning in vinegar).
Clean the files first, that will reduce the black scuzz left after the soak. I have a .30-06 case with the mouth flattened that can be pushed or pulled along the teeth to scrape out whatever pins and crud are stuck there. Then a soak in vinegar for 24 to 30 hours, just whatever is convenient, a rinse, brushing off the black soot (a very good description, that I wish I had coined), another rinse, dry, and then oil.
Before I start on a file, I check the condition of the teeth. I see no point in spending time on one with damage; throw it in the scrap box for the future.
I haven't tried this, but I expect a strong mixture of Lemishine will accomplish the same thing, maybe a little better. Lemishine contains citric acid. Find it amongst the dish washing supplies at Walmart.
I use Lemishine solution to clean cartridge brass that has become extremely corroded back to nearly new looking condition - a session in an ultrasonic cleaner with a little Dawn added will remove all of the carbon soot in just a few minutes. I don't reckon the Dawn is necessary, but it serves as a surfactant, so it can't hurt, either.
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I can't lay my hands on the Company name but they are a machine shop tool repair outfit in Pasadena CA. They sharpen files like new. I've sent them about 15 worn out files and
Look up www.Boggs Tool, Pasadena CA