Shooting The NE Tenn .40

[Leatherbelly]

 First in here?,LOL!! anybody having fun shooting a southern smallbore? Packdog sure makes a fine Baxter Bean and have had nothing but fun shooting it, Will try it for the first time saturday in a competition.Hope I can handle the peer preasure!

[Dave B]

I had built a .45 poor boy, hand forged Iron trigger guard no butt plate, that I shot a couple times at rondy's and left it with some friends on consignment and just when I was thinking about picking it up to  take back home a fellow up and bought it.  Now I will have to build another.
Now in light of this. I have heard tell that a person can shoot  OO buck shot in a rifle with out trouble but what caliber is OO buck shot?

[Leatherbelly]

Dave,
 Here in Canada they call OO Buck, SG which is .33 cal. if I remember correctly.SSG is .36cal. I think.Would that make it OOO Buck down there?

[Daryl]

LB - not quite. SSG is .32", same as 00 buck.  While LG and 000 is supposed to be .36", but Hornday's swaged 000 is .35" instead - I think.  The SSG and 00 are the same size though at .32".

[Leatherbelly]

Thanks Daryls
 Gosh,Daryls,how are you liking this new site. When I went to the Gunbuilding forum,I felt completely intimidated,like I shouldn't even be allowed to look in there! "How Many Guns Have I Built?" Well,none! How many will you build? well,none! Will you ever build one?..well maybe. I just buy the stuff these guys build,sorry.

[Daryl]

I've built a couple, but nothing I would photograph for this forum. Gladly, I don't have them any more, but at least one owner is still pleased.  He has the .44 smoothbore I built.  I used .433" balls I think, with a denim patch, of course. That little rifle killed a lot of snowshoe rabbits. It was good for head shtos easily to 40 yards with few misses at 50.  The current owner says it's more accurate than his rifle at 80 yards.
; Edited- Oh yeah- like the noew forum- similar to others I frequent.

[Dave B]

Thanks guys' for lining me out on the caliber for the 00 buck.

[Bill of the 45th]

LB, as pretty as that rifle is, you should win the match on beauty alone
Bill

[Daryl]

Bill - have you seen any pictures of LB    OH, you'e talking about his rifle? OK

[Sam Everly]

 In all my .40  i use a .395 ball with 40 grains of 3 f and .015 Teflon patching from Jerrys archery. all shoot very well . I have a cross stick /light bench barrel  in a under hammer in .40 that L. C. Rice gave me from the junk pile , it has won at Friendship and about every where else it has been shot. It is a slow twist ,( i forget what twist it is ) 1 in 50 something .

[Daryl]

Sam - 1 in 48", about the same as far as the ball is concerned, to a 1 in 50", is considered a relatively fast twist today.  Most .45's have 1 in 56" to 1 in 60" twist, with .50's and larger going to even slower twists.
: I'm not surprised your .40 shoots well - about all of them do. What sruprises me is the charge. Mine won't shoot that little amount of 3F, yet it likes 55gr. 2F.  One would think I could find a load in 3F that matched the 2F's velocity, but those in the 40gr. to 45gr.3F  I tried didn't shoot worth beans.  Increasing the load shrunk groups to the point where 65gr. was a ringer, at 2,150fps av.  Matching that velocity with 2F also gave similar accuracy, which took 75gr., yet matching 55gr.2F's velocity of 1,795fps in 3F didn't shoot well at all - over doubel the group size.
: BTW - does increasing the charge in your .40 make it shoot higher or lower?  Mine shoots lower, but the elevation at 100 yards is the same, at 4 to 4 1/2" low of the sights set at 50 yards.

[Sam Everly]

The reject Rice barrel is a 1-56 twist , which is slow for a 40 about all are 1-48. I have 5 barrels in .40 cal and all but one shoot a .395 and Teflon and the 3f. I can't remember what they did going up and down in charge , but what worked best is what they ended up with . I have a GM .40 that takes .410 balls and .010 wonder lube patches and 45 grains of 3f . For some reason i had better groups with the 3f over the 2f.It was the most pickey barrel i ever had to find a load , took one full week,4 hours a day of punching paper to get it right . The only thing i found differant was it has wide groves and narrow lands. I ended winning the .40 cal and under bench match with it at Friendship after that . But still don't like the barrel . My nephew uses it there at Friendship and finished 2nd with it in the JR'S cross stick match. So i guess it is his now . But and i say "But" i use only Elephant, all one lot number and MFG date for the 40's .It is a little weak in the FPS but that is what i got that powder for , so it may be close to a good Goex 2f. My buddy Bill Knight gave me the lot number and date and said get that, so i did ! And on powder i put him up there next to the big guy !!!           

[Sam Everly]

I all most forgot, i have a 40 by Longhammock that is hard to beat for off hand matches . I won the old Kingsmountain SC. state park offhand match several years ago ( i had better eyes back then ) and at 25 yards i shot a 50-5x all in one hole less than 3/4 of a dime! That barrel is a shooter. I even won a few chunk relays with it at the York shoot and at Friendship , but it is just to light for a good chunk gun !       

[Daryl]

Sam- it is amazing what good eyes and a lot of practise can do for offhand scores, isn't it. I have the first target I ever shot with a Bauska .45 barrel that is tight in the bore at .448" and a .504" groove diameter.  It has a .60" twist and .028" rifling of equal depth/width.  I used a .457" ball and .022' denim patch. The target is about 3/4" on centres for 5 shtos, 25 yards but was a bit low. Only 3 or 4 of the shots out of 5 are X's (if you score by cnetre of the ball, otherwise they all are.  Shooting like that was easy way back when.

[ironwolf]

  My wife shoots a .36 flinter in offhand matches. I prefer a larger caliber myself, but there's just something about those Tennessee squirrel guns isn't there?
  And You gotta' love Packdogs work and his love of what he's doing.

 And LB, if your hecklers are as bad as ours, I feel sorry for ya'.

Kevin

[Ken G]

Guys, Thanks for the kind words!  I really appreciate them.   Leatherbelly, I glad to hear you are shooting her.  I wish you well in the compittition. 
Jim Robeck's (halfmeasures) son just won the KY 4H championship and will be going to Nationals with a gun I built him.  It sure would be nice to have 2 in the winners circle. 
Cheers,
Ken

[FG1]

Awesome rifle Ken !! Did you make the mountings for it also ?

[Ken G]

FG1,
Thnaks, Are you talking about Leatherbelly's rifle?  I did not make those mounts.  I did most of the parts for the squirrel rifle pictured in gunbuilding.

[Herb]

Daryl- I have a .40 Vincent I just finished, with 36" Green Mountain barrel.  It likes 40 grains of Goex 3F, and I shot two six-shot targets of that today, with 40 grains of  Goex 3F, .395 ball,  Ox Yoke patches and Murphy Oil Soap/ alcohol lube.  My first group was with .020 patch and six averaged 1636 fps.  Six more with .010 patch averaged 1711 fps, 75 fps faster, 33 spread for that last.  Then I tried your 65 grains of Goex 3F, rest of load the same.  First shot was 2029 fps, but the next five averaged 2043 fps with ONLY Three feet per second variation!  Group was not as small as the 40 grain .010 combo.  No cleaning or wiping at all for 18 shots.  Then I tried your 75 grains of Goex 2F with .010 patch, and could really feel the  fouling.  First three shots in one inch, same point of impact as the 65 grains of 3F.  Fourth shot, the patch blew.  So I cleaned the bore.   About a 2.25" group without the flier.  Six shots averaged 2044 fps, 43 spread even with the cleaned bore.  What patch and lube do you use with 75 grains of 2F and do you wipe between shots?  I never have before, but I could not shoot this combo without more lube or wiping, but don't expect to do so.  Just curious.

[Leatherbelly]

Herb,
I know what daryls will say!,LOL! Make sure you have a nicely radiused crown and use a thicker patch. I'd use at least .020 to .022 thou patch.
  My 38" Rice .40 uses the same ball diameter. During the colder months I was getting away with a 20 thou patch but noticed during hot weather,my bore was fowling more then during cooler weather. So I'll try a .022 denim patch,Lehigh Valley lube and a .395 ball.
 My charge is 50gr. of Goex 2f.Shoots real good.

[Daryl]

Hi Herb - glad to see the extent of your testing about mirrors the way I do things as well.

 In my 42" barrel, 75gr. 2F, 65gr. of 3F or 55gr. 2F all foul about the same (I can't see or feel any difference) - never a problem with loading and I don't wipe - never have, except when testing accuracy of wiping against shooting dirty.

 I've been using the 55gr. 2F charge only because I had 4 pounds of 2F and very little 3F - enough for my wife to use in his .45 for our Rondy is all.  The best groups I've made with this charge are still double the size I get with 65gr. 3F and a .400" ball and .020" denim patch, LHValley lube. The light 2F load will hold at or just under an inch at 50 yards. Incidently, this 1/2" grouping of the .400" ball is identical in size to the load I found works best in my GM .45 barrel for the same gun - 42", 60" twist, 70gr. 3F or 80gr. 2F, .445 ball and .022"(blue -10oz- denim) patch, LHV lube.

 I tried 75gr. 2F as well as 65gr. of 3F with spit lubed patchs, and found the accuracy wasn't quite as good with those loads as with LHValley lube.  I am elated with the accuracy and velocity of 65gr. 3F and the heavier 2F load, but they are hard on my meager supply of powder or both grades - I'm about out. I"m hoping hatchet Jack can sell me some to do until Hefley Creek where I can get some more.

I've found the lighter 55gr. load with a .395" ball will allow a thinner patch than the .020" denim (8 ounce) that I use, but I am leary of using a thinner patch that might not stand up in the increased temperatures which are bound to happen at Hefley. Thus, I use the .020" or even some .023"(black- 10oz) that I have as well.  I've also found the .400" ball shoots identically to the .395" when using the light 55gr. charge of 2F, however 65gr. 3F and 75gr. 2F shoot better with the .400" ball and a .018" to .019" "cottom duck" . For Hefley, I'll just sight for and use .020" denim and 65gr. 3F for the entire shoot as it loads easily, shoots cleanly and is the most accurate load I've found so far.

 Herb - my wife's .45 GM barrel, only 32" long, shoots very well, about 3/4" at 50 yards using a light charge of 50gr. 3F, .020" denim, LHV lube and a .440" ball. I've done only a little load developement with this rifle, but know it'll shoot better with more load development. She shot about 25 rounds last Sunday, her first ML shooting since our first daughter's birth, 28 years ago and had no difficulty loading - no wiping needed, of course.

[Herb]

I have always used thick patches but this .40 Vincent drove me to try Goex 2F as well as 3F, Swiss 2F, .400 balls and thus the .010 patch.  To my astonishment I found the .010 patches gave better accuracy and higher velocity than .020 patches.  Using .395 and .400 cast balls (not much difference in velocity or accuracy) but with both .010 and .020 Ox Yoke lubed with Murphy Oil Soap/alcohol, the .010 loads were 148 fps, 222 fps and 75 fps faster.  I don't know why such a difference between the patches and why the re-tests were different.  I expected the patch to tear with 65 grains of Goex 3F, but they did not.  When I had fouling with the 75 grains of 2F, it was a new experience for me.  I should have used the thick patches and more lube, but was out of time.  Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual shows them using .010 pre-lubed OxYoke patches with round balls in .32, .36, .45 (no .40 loads), .50 and .58 calibers.  In .54 they used .015 Ox Yoke.

I appreciate your sharing your experience with your rifles and loads.

[Edd]

  Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual shows them using .010 pre-lubed OxYoke patches with round balls in .32, .36, .45 (no .40 loads), .50 and .58 calibers.  In .54 they used .015 Ox Yoke.

Those experimenters at Lyman, seem to be stuck on .010 shooting patches. An earlier handbook has them using  .010 patches and Crisco for the lube...

Edd

[Daryl]

I was quite surprised with the choice of patches by Lyman in the early BP book written in the 70's. there is stil a lot of good info in that book. Too bad it's out of print as it covered the .40's in several barrel lengths.

 I haven't seen mine for many years - maybe I lent it out & it never returned.  Like that hasnt' happened before .

 One aspect of loading I found most interesting, was velocity vs pressure similarities no matter the calibre.

 While the small calibres more easily run into speeds of over 2,000fps, they do not do it without producing high pressure.  The reason we can load them to produce those velocities is the lack of recoil on our shoulders - we allow or we load them to those speeds and don't think twice about the pressure being produced.  What I'm getting at, is the .40 or .45's produce roughly (not identical of course) the same pressure when running 2,200fps at the bigger bores when they are producing 2,200fps, yet we tend to think of a .62 running 1,800fps as being a heavy load, (it is recoil-wise), when indeed, it is producing very little pressure. The larger bores, with common or even 'heavy' loads are running very low pressure, compared to what we regularly run in the little ones.  The powder seems to be a limiting factor in really big bores, as I found it literally impossible to get my 14 bore over 1,800fps even using loads one would think of as being excessive. The recoil was, but certainly not the pressure.

My .40 gets 1,800fps with as little as 55gr. 2F - which I think of as a light load, but the 14 bore produced a mere 1,770fps with 330gr.2F - not a pleasant load to shoot, let me tell you, yet still, it was producing no more pressure than my 'light' .40 cal load.

[billd]

How do you measure pressure small bore vs big bore?

Thanks,
Bill