Author Topic: Understanding Aging  (Read 27493 times)

Leatherbelly

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Understanding Aging
« on: September 04, 2008, 06:22:01 AM »
 Hi Folks,
  I have a hard time understanding why some builders of fine reproduction muzzleloaders age (antique) their products,including horns and bags. If I was shopping for a gun or rifle in 1760,would I want something that was aged to look 200 years old? I think not. I like to let my fowler and my rifle take on a natural patina from my handling it,not from dragging it behind the horse and buggy.My question is why? When we reenact or go to primitive shoots,do you think our forefathers had aged guns? I don't. Any comments?

Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 06:37:07 AM »
I agree.  I don't like the "aging" of new guns and don't understand the reasons behind it.  Dont take me wrong, if this is what you like go ahead.  It seems to me that aging started off as a way to pass off a new gun as an antique,so why would we perpetuate this act? Just my thoughts, please dont hate me for it!
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2008, 06:53:51 AM »
The reason why so many builders of guns and makers of powder horns, knives and leather goods antique or age their products is because that is what is selling. It seems like the more aged an item is the better it sells. Several years ago I made some painted "Indian Guns". I would make the gun with the best quality parts mounted in a fine curly maple stock sealed and finished like a normal gun and then paint the whole stock with milk paint. I made these in red, blue and mustard yellow. After painting I would sand back the wear areas to show some of the curly maple under the milk paint. I did this because a couple of guys had talked to me for a couple of years about building them a painted gun.

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ironwolf

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 12:09:57 PM »
  I don't understand aging at all.   I hurt from the ground up and I'm only 50.  But I do really know what you mean and I couldn't agree more.  I built my personal rifle to look 1760's but around 40 or so years old, to fit my persona in the years around the "turn".

  Kevin

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 03:12:57 PM »
I don't mean any of this in an offensive manner, but you all are assuming that the only customers interested in these rifles are reenactors, people who want to essentially attempt to relive history and/or immerse themselves in a historical milieu.  From this vantage point, of course a heavily-aged gun might seem silly save if one is perhaps recreating the Rev War period and is carrying a 17th century doglock.  However, there exists today an equally large - and rapidly growing - customer base amongst individuals who have absolutely no interest at all in reenacting.  These individuals, in general, are primarily interested in the old antiques as art form and to our eyes in 2008 the 200+ years of patina is an integral part of that art form.  The 'aging' of these antiques hints at a myriad of stories and adventures that to their minds may evoke the same sense of appreciation for the past, really a wistfulness for the past, that a reenactor may feel at Ticonderoga when the sun sinks and a hundred small fires spring up, all the while the low hum of conversation and laughter mingling with smoke to thence drift aimlessly across the fields.  I can only speak for myself when I state, fairly emphatically, that I can not warm up to a shiny new rifle.  My interest has always been antique firearms, whether it be Edward Marshall's rifle (which first impressed itself upon me at age 11) or a fine old Winchester lever gun.  With any old arm, it is the basic fact of its age and antiquity which captures my imagination and my appreciation.  The years of crusty rust browning blanketing the barrel, the evidence of repairs by various unknown individuals lost to the fog of time, the long-faded trail of calloused hands smoothing the wood and rendering it a slick, almost-otherworldly material...  Whether it be a genuine antique or a modern work of fiction, there is often a story waiting to be told; most of us will not live long enough or hard enough to impress our own upon an arm constructed here in 2008.  As a gunbuilder, I very much enjoy 'helping' the story along in a tangible manner.  It would seem, judging by the volume of 'aged' arms which are being now created, that many other individuals also enjoy this particular form of narrative as well.  This is not a new phenomenon:  furniture makers have been throwing chains, rocks and tools at new-made chairs and tables for many years.  Many luthiers are now joining the fray as well, for the skyrocketing prices of antique and more recent 'vintage' instruments have created an entirely new market for more affordable items which nevertheless look equally old.  It would seem that many people, myself included, find solace in opening a familiar, dog-eared book from time to time; as with all old friends, one does not feel obligated to incessantly revisit the first page.   
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Online Robert Wolfe

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 03:19:54 PM »
I'm with Eric. I don't reinact but love old guns. I probably won't be able to ever own a 200+ year old gun in shootable condition but can own a newly made aged one. I just like the way they look. But, I'd rather have a new shiney one than a poorly aged one - that really turns me off.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 03:44:01 PM by Robert Wolfe »
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Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 03:36:22 PM »
    Some folks like new wine and some like their wine with some mellow age and character to it.   I happen to like the nice mellow look of a little age on my guns.   I admire the clean sharp precise look of the Bivins style of building and appreciate the skill possesed by those who practice it.   Aging has nothing to do with passing a gun off as an antique.   To attempt to pass a contemporary gun as antique would take a lot more than skin deep appearence.  The appropriate and correct shading of stains and colors and textures adds a whoe other dimension to the beauty and depth of a fine contemporary gun.  Those that have learned this skill set are much sought after, and paid accordingly.  These people are often great restorers of fine antique arms, as they understand how to achieve a correct look and feel that is hard to put into words.  
"The highest reward that God gives us for good work is the ability to do better work."  - Elbert Hubbard

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 03:43:15 PM »
Mr Kettenburg,

You Sir, are not only and rifle builder, beyond compare,  but an incredible story teller as well.

I agree with you completely, I only wish I could have said it so eloquently.

One has only to look at your work to see that magic, and the same eloquence in wood and steel.

Well done.  Well said.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 03:47:27 PM »
Very nicely said Eric.
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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 03:50:10 PM »
Well, I have long thought that a new gun ought to look like a new gun--and I have always tried to keep my modern firearms new looking as much as possible by careful use and cleaning.  I have some of my dad's guns bought in the 20s that still look pretty good.  And they were well used in his lifetime.  BUT, I do appreciate the art form as practiced by Eric and others in making 'new antiques'.  I do question some reenactor's choices of 'aged' guns, and some personas are enhanced by them.  Collectors usually desire mint condition items and the new antique look is a relatively recent thing among collectors.  Eric's rifles are masterpieces, but how can one look at a Shipman rifle, for example, and desire it to be corroded and dinged!  Both are art.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 04:33:49 PM »
My own feeling is that I like to 'appear' as though I've been at this awhile and that is why I wear rotting skins, torn and worn out shirts, bag with lots of patina (crud) so a perfectly new shooter would look out of place.  I continue using my old beat up shooter wrapped with buckskin on the butt (rifle's butt) and m,anage to hold my own in the matches. :)

I build my own; but like to let the browning go - rub out the stock's wear areas etc etc for the above reasons..   My own feeling of course and mileage may vary!! :P

Leatherbelly

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 05:05:58 PM »
  Gents,
    I guess I didn't understand the market for aged guns. As a shooter,I try to match my persona to the firearm of that period. I shoot a Penn Fowler of the Newcomer flavor so my dress or persona needs to reflect that era,perhaps a F&I war veteran.(middle class ,of course. ;D)  Eric,thanks for that great explanation. For the non-shooter, ie; the collector, your explanation fits. It just strikes me as odd to portray a persona of two hundred years ago and shoot a rifle that looks like it lay in a salt pond for two hundred years. No offence intended, I'm just learning.

Daryl

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 05:29:12 PM »
I can see the point Erik and others are making, along with seeing some 'aged' guns of David Rase at Hefley - but - I'm pretty sure the woodsman didn't carry a gun that looked like it was 200 years old.  The guns Dave had, certainly had a charm about them, but I prefer natural aging to take place.  I find new well made muzzleloaders to be spectacular in all their shiny brilliance, like Taylor's Virginia, now in it's second year and the new Kuntz .40 he built this year. I cannot even envision that rifle purposely dinged :o and 'rotted with Clorox'. YIKES!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 05:29:53 PM by Daryl »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 05:32:38 PM »
I think we have a hard time appreciating what even 10 years of regular use will do to a gun.  We might take our guns to the range and shoot them 5, 10, 50 times a year, each time carefully cleaning them, taking them into our dry and clean homes, and oiling them and adding a dab of wax or even finish when needed.  That is very different from the use that many period guns received.

A friend has a late 1800's fullstock percussion rifle from West Virginia.  Probably 1860's.  Could it have received 40 years of hard use?  It seems unlikely, because it would have been cheaper perhaps to buy a .22 rimfire singleshot than to shoot that old .36 rifle.  Yet the stock has been broken and repaired, the lock and barrel are well pitted, the barrel needed freshing, and the stock is well worn in the fore-end.  Lewis and Clark had to re-fresh their barrels on a 3 year trip.  Now that is not due to shooting them out, if I understand how many rounds Roger Fisher has put through 1 Getz barrel.  It is due to rough usage, shooting, re-loading and leaving it loaded (not cleaning), being wet all the time, etc.

My father in law had a Winchester 94 he bought in 1945 and by 1965 it looked like it had conquered the west.  He kept it in the barn, in the pickup truck, on the tractor.  I am pretty sure that it looked beat up with just 10 years of use, and all that, out of the weather.

If I was portraying a Rev. War period guy and am in my 50's and carrying a F&I War period piece, I'd want to see a lot of age on it.  If I had a new Rupp rifle (guessing here that some Rupp was making rifles in the late 1770's) I'd want it to look newer.

I've never aged a gun very far (no distressing, no pitting, no crud) but just softened the look a little.  I just can't bring myself to do it- yet.  Seems like after all that work to get it nice......

I do intend to do it soon with a really early very simple fowler.
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flintman-tx

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 05:36:03 PM »
Beautiful thing about all of this is...you CAN have it your way!!! I like aged guns but know folks who like for them to shine like a new dollar. To each his own.   Charles

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 07:15:46 PM »
Eric, You should write a novel. I started to picture myself next to the campfires at Ticonderoga, could almost smell the smoke.

I like the look of mild aging and will attempt some on my current build. I know it's an artform in itself, another skill to be learned. I also think it takes guts to really get it right as builders we strive for the best work we can do and aging is somewhat counter to perfection especially when we are marring surfaces to simulate wear.

sluggunner

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 07:57:21 PM »
It's strange that so many modern makers age there work but when a collector finds one in new condition he's ecstatic. Go figure.
                                                 Rich

Offline Stophel

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 08:03:10 PM »
I do agree with Leatherbelly that a lot of reenactors want their stuff to look quite old.  Guns, horns, bags, clothing, etc.  They really go wild with horns, they want them yellow and dark and grungy.

As to guns, I tend to like the "slightly used" finish.  Something that you would get fairly quickly anyway through normal use.  Besides, it's hard for me to make a gun that really looks brand new...I'm too clumsy.

On the other hand, it sometimes surprises me how quickly a gun can become "aged" in the modern world.  People have shotguns or rifles that are only 10 years old, and are rusty, beat up, finish worn off, buttplates chipped, etc.  They look like they've seen 100 years of use, but have actually only seen a few years of abuse.

I do have the desire to build a "fake" gun.  One that maybe could pass for a 250 year old gun.  Just for my own satisfaction.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 08:04:19 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 08:18:54 PM »
Hi Folks,
  I have a hard time understanding why some builders of fine reproduction muzzleloaders age (antique) their products,including horns and bags. If I was shopping for a gun or rifle in 1760,would I want something that was aged to look 200 years old? I think not. I like to let my fowler and my rifle take on a natural patina from my handling it,not from dragging it behind the horse and buggy.My question is why? When we reenact or go to primitive shoots,do you think our forefathers had aged guns? I don't. Any comments?

Its mostly Hollywood stuff. Looks over substance.
I actually aged 3 rifles (not MLs) for a movie once. I aged them as a rifle a year or so old (about how old they would have been in the story) would look based near identical rifles I had owned and used. Hollywood apparently added to this but from film footage not much.
I suppose the hard core re-enactor would see a need to beat up his equipment to look like he was what he was playing. I go more for the practical and I use my rifles fairly heavily but most re-enactors  would probably not low crawl for 40-50 yards with their rifle pouch and horn as I did last year trying for a shot at a whitetail. My hunting rifle picked up a fair number of dings and scratches in one years use. But it takes a lot to put the wear on that we see in some antiquing. This is based on using stuff fairly heavily, everyday, for a month or so in the mountains. I would point to the Bridger Hawken rifle in the museum in Helena. This was a soft varnish finished rifle that probably saw more use in a year than most modern MLs see in 30. Given the time frame the rifel dates too its likely got about 10-15 years of use on it (but this is supposition). If shows signs of horse back use, wear to the front lock mouldings/forend  but still retains a lot of stock finish on the buttstock and is really not that beat up. Also remember that this rifle was likely kept in a buckskin case when horseback or not in a situation where an immediate shot was likely.
I would also point out that indian trade rifles from England came with a case or cover according to the information reproduced in Bailey's "British Flintlock Military Rifles". So it is possible that a cover of some sort was not that uncommon in Rev War times. In my experience its basically impossible to keep a rifle dry enough in snow or rain to be reliable unless its cased. I use tight weave wool or leather or both. Leather with snow seal works very well. And they slide off the gun easily unless it has high sights and leather works even then if "greased".
I have worked as a guide and horse packer in Wilderness areas and have used flintlocks for 20 days plus at at time while employed at this. They survive pretty well in this usage, a friend still owns a similar rifle that saw even more use and it does not look "antiqued". But it was a good custom rifle, not cheap at the time and he took care of it as I did my rifle.
Varnish finished guns will show wear much faster than oil finished guns.
One must remember that the wear shown on a rifle that is 200 years old with 50 years perhaps of use by 3 generations plus being kicked around for 100 or 150 years afterwards is not what the gun looked like after it was in use for 1 or 5 or 10 years buy the guy who bought it initially and knew what it cost.
Based on a oil tanned leather pouch and horn I made in the 60s and used a LOT over the years the "antiquing" of these things is grossly over done. Hollywood. Admittedly had it been of deerskin, other than maybe heavy brain tan, it likely would have failed by now.
Horns in particular are tough. I have slipped on a hillside fallen on them with no damage, knocked the wind out of ME but the horn was fine. If excessively thinned they may crack but if left to a reasonable thickness they take a LOT of abuse with little sign or wear. Look at what a cow does with them.
I have hurt this horn/pouch more recently with it rubbing on the sight and hammer of my 629 than any using of it in period clothing.
A lot of wear seen on old guns (saddle wear for example) may come from being hauled in a wagon. This is really bad unless carefully stowed or held.

Dan



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ironwolf

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 12:00:00 AM »
  Eric, you sir, are a good writer. 
There is something awesome about the aged guns made by guys like Eric, Allen, Mike B.  And Jud Brennen, #@!! $#@*.

  Kevin

Mike R

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 12:20:49 AM »
"Aging"in use depends alot on how the gun has been  treated over the years--and clearly it is not totally fair to compare modern arms usage with older BP guns, although in the early cartridge days primers were quite corrosive.   The first thing my dad did when he got in from a hunt was clean his gun.  Well.  He didn't bounce it around in the basck of a pick-up [some did] and he cared for it afield.  He shot alot.  He carried a gun everyday for 25 yrs [FBI Agent] and I still have his pistol bought back in the late 50s--minor holster wear is the only mar to the finish.  His ca. 1904 .22 fared a little worse due to early use of corrosive primers and poor care it got after he died, but it still looks pretty good.  I have a LC Smith made in 1921 that looks real good.  I suspect the old muzzleloaders were often "mistreated" or at least not maintained as carefully as dad's old guns.  So, if a person was to portray a Rev War soldier carrying his dad's old F&I War vintage fowler, it should probably have a few dings and rust.  But it was less than 20 yrs between the wars. If he just bought a new gun it should look new.   I think most people cared for their arms as best they could--they cost money when money was in short supply.  My oldest MLing rifle was made in 1974 and still looks almost new.  So does the one I built for myself in 1978.  On the other hand my newest rifle is so shiny new that I have tried to age it a bit just to take the shine off!  That some collectors of contemporary rifles want an 'aged' rifle is a phenomenon!  They do look good, warm and used and old looking, but I like to earn my own dings with use!

Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 03:24:11 AM »
Well dang, after reading eric's writing i went out and put some agin on my flintlock.  I feel humbled.
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Leatherbelly

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 03:49:18 AM »
 Last year my Fowler looked shiny new but in just one year the brass has a warm light patina already.A few little dings here and there,not perfect anymore.My happy little .40 isn't perfect anymore either. Nice things showing on the the iron and handling patina on the wood. Same with an absolute white barrelled scrimmed horn by Randy. It has nice handling marks starting to show and is a shade darker then last year. This is the kind of aging I like! Gives the piece some new character.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 06:51:41 AM »
I really appreciate the antiqued guns by Eric Kettenberg and Mike Brooks as welll as ones they don't age. Bill Shipman's guns are classicly beautiful as are Jerry Huddlestons..(I could never antique one of those!)

I like the aged look. For reenacting I would use my .54 which looks like it about ten years of hard age. The nicks etc are legit but the colors on wood and metal are done to look ten years old. I would think that would look fine in a reenactment.

The Peter Berry I am making now will be aged quite a bit but certainly not to the attic antique level.  Its fun to build, shoot and carry and just look at all of them in whatever state they are in!!!

After thinking about that for a few minutes I think maybe my preference is because in my old age I lok a little antique too.....not as antique as Don Getz....but catching up!! ::) ;D ;D
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 06:53:16 AM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Understanding Aging
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 06:57:45 AM »
Last year my Fowler looked shiny new but in just one year the brass has a warm light patina already.A few little dings here and there,not perfect anymore.My happy little .40 isn't perfect anymore either. Nice things showing on the the iron and handling patina on the wood. Same with an absolute white barrelled scrimmed horn by Randy. It has nice handling marks starting to show and is a shade darker then last year. This is the kind of aging I like! Gives the piece some new character.

Shoot LB, thats just a natural part of the building process in my shop.... :-[ :-[....... ;) ;D
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