Author Topic: Your favorite patch lube and y  (Read 22223 times)

agaboric

  • Guest
Your favorite patch lube and y
« on: May 03, 2010, 03:40:40 AM »
So I know that this is a typical newbie question, however I will ask it anyway I was at our clubs shoot this past weekend and had a blast (literaly) and won a can of tomatoes, ketup, and wortshire suace. I have a CVA hawken .50 cal that I shoot and I was shooting a .49 ball and was using .010 patch and for lube I was using vegitable oil. I was hitting paper fine at 25 yards but my patches were burning thru a little bit. I am also shooting 45 grains of FFg so a pretty light load. The veg oil worked okay, however eventaully got everywhere and made everything slick. On another note I am ordering a flash cup too.

So I know that everyone has their own little method and I do not want to use "spit" even though I know that is traditional. So I would like to open it up to anyone and see what they have to say. One of the guys next to me was using hand cream as lube, so I know that just about anything is fair game. However I would like something that is not too runny and makes a mess like veg. oil. So I am opening it up to anyone.

Also if you use a higher powder charge do you change your patch lube?

Thanks,

Andy

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 04:00:26 AM »
For those guns that don't work well with a spit patch, I make  a mixture of 7 parts water, 1 part olive oil, & couple of drops of dish detergent.  Shake well to get the oil & water mixed, soak the patching material (pillow or mattress ticking), and set the ticking out flat to dry.   Once dry, the patch  is cut at the muzzle at loading.   It has a slight olive oil odor, but it's dry & non-messy.

That's a variation of Dutch Schoulz's 'dry lube' method wherein he uses water soluble machinist oil.  I suspect Ballistol, being a water soluble oil, would work as well, but I haven't tried it.

   

I don't change patch lube for higher powder charge.

SCL
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 05:05:28 AM by SCLoyalist »

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 04:14:37 AM »
I'm pretty new, also, and I use vegetable oil with reasonably good results -- it can be a mess, though.  A couple of thoughts based on what I've gone through:
1.  Are ball and patch thick enough?  0.010 and .490 ball in my .50 cal. is simply too loose, and the patches will burn.  0.018 and .490 are decent at 25 yards, but the best is 0.018 and .495, which is good to 50 yards (at least -- the way I shoot, no point in going further yet:)).  With loose ball and patch, I find that 25 yards can be good , but a bit inconsistent.  50 yards is no good at all. 
2.  If the fit is good but the barrel is new, the rough rifling may be tearing your patches and contributing to the burning.  I had to shoot well over a hundred balls before the roughness went away.  I should have considered polishing the bore in some fashion, but it was fun to shoot, anyway.

I envy you the 45 gr. charge.  If you're a winner at 25 yards and that light a charge, it sounds like fun.  Anyway, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone and seem to be asking the right questions.

roundball

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 04:20:12 AM »
So I know that this is a typical newbie question, however I will ask it anyway I was at our clubs shoot this past weekend and had a blast (literaly) and won a can of tomatoes, ketup, and wortshire suace. I have a CVA hawken .50 cal that I shoot and I was shooting a .49 ball and was using .010 patch and for lube I was using vegitable oil. I was hitting paper fine at 25 yards but my patches were burning thru a little bit. I am also shooting 45 grains of FFg so a pretty light load. The veg oil worked okay, however eventaully got everywhere and made everything slick. On another note I am ordering a flash cup too.

So I know that everyone has their own little method and I do not want to use "spit" even though I know that is traditional. So I would like to open it up to anyone and see what they have to say. One of the guys next to me was using hand cream as lube, so I know that just about anything is fair game. However I would like something that is not too runny and makes a mess like veg. oil. So I am opening it up to anyone.

Also if you use a higher powder charge do you change your patch lube?

Thanks,

Andy

There are a number of options...but speaking for myself personally...I think a .010" patch is a very thin one and I've never had an application where I wanted to use such a thin patch...they don't hold up well to the fire and they carry practically no lube to speak of, so type lube is almost a moot point with a paper thin patch.

If your bore diameter is like mine...typical .500" in the industry and you're using a nominal size ball like a .490" the smallest patch I ever use is .015" for casual plinking at the range (because I bought a lot of them at a real low price  :) ) but normally I use .018" patch with a .490" in a .50cal.

My lube most of the year is Natural Lube 1000, and Hoppes N09 PLUS BP patch lube during dry / low humidity times of the winter when I need a wetter lube to keep shooting without wiping between shots.

Offline Frizzen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
  • Phil Piburn
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 04:39:25 AM »
When not using "Teflon" coated patching, I use 2 oz. water soulable cutting oil to 32 oz. water.
The Pistol Shooter

northmn

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 04:48:45 AM »
I pretty much agree with roundball that the patch is too thin.  The only time I used thin patches was with the old Numrich barrels that were button rifled with a goove depth of about .007 or .008 at most.  Modern cut rifled barrels take a thicker patch just to fill the grooves.  Vegetable oil will hold up, but those that do a lot of shooting are using lubes that can also double as cleaners like Lehigh Valley or Hoppes #9+.  One individual tested water and found it to work.  You either have to keep these lubed patches in a container or apply the lube just before shooting.  They do not work well if the gun is carried for a while as in hunting.  You vegetable oil or a grease works better for that.  Some like to put a second dry patch as a barrier between the powder and the lubed patch to prevent too much contamination for carry.  Does not make much difference at the range.  
There are two types of lube, the wet type that clean when you load and the wax grease types that are best used for extended carry.  The wax grease types keep the fouling soft but tend to mix with it and do not work that well for a target range where one may want to shoot a lot of shots in an afternoon as the fouling does seem to continue to build with them.  The greases protect the patch and offer some barrel protection as a barrel oil.  Wet lubes clean the bore when loading to some extent and seem to maintain fouling at a more even level.  Different tools for different purposes.


DP

Scott Semmel

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 06:21:39 AM »
In reading this forum for almost as many years as it’s been around I do believe “what lube” is one of the top three topics of discussion. There are a bunch of things that many will swear by and many will swear at the same things.
I don’t particularly enjoy spending a bunch of time cleaning my guns and feel that if I’m going to clean it with water I’m not going to put anything down my barrel that does not easily dissolve in water. So I use oil soap and alcohol 50/50. Occasionally will use Ballistoil or water soluble oil either straight or diluted with water. I think they work just dandy, but I don’t have to try hard to find dissenting opinions.
If you do a search on lubes I am sure you will get enough information for an evenings worth of reading. And it will be information from a large number of people who are highly skilled and knowledgeable about our sport. An evening well spent.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 04:54:57 PM »
I'm wondering why you will not use good old and cheap spit ??? There was an article in a later M Blasts Mag about the spit patch clean while you load and same while you shoot!

Go to thicker patch suggest try .020 and experiment at your range from a decent rest but not hard....

Some folks increase the charge as they move out - works for me. :)

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 06:31:09 PM »
Andy- lots of good info in this thread.  The most important is that of the going to a thicker patch.  If you are buying pre-cut patches and insist on using the .490" ball, then I suggest .020" patches - minimum - for good longer range accuracy and for clean shooting.
If the patch is too thin, hot gasses and flame blast by, fouling the bore and destroying accuracy. Even a smoothbore will shoot a 1" group at 25 yards.  50 yards is the minimum range to see what "the load" will do.
Too, a .50 will need in the relm of 65gr. 3F to 85gr. 2F powder to shoot well at 50 yards and beyond.

As to lube, most of us up here in the North, use a concoction of winter windshield antifreeze, with a few ounces of soap, neetsfoot oil or olive oil in it. Shake, pour over the patches to saturate them in a container - steel or plastic, then pour off the excess back into the container.  The exact recipe means little, but I have achieved better longer range accuracy using LehighValley lube (not available any more) or Hoppe's 9 Plus BP lube and solvent.  These slippery lubes actualy require more powder be used to achieve the same accuracy as less slippery lubes, like water or spit based.

Like Roger, I find few lubes that shoot better than plain spit.  Easy to do with pre-cuts - less spit is needed.  Merely licking the patch is similar to using no lube.  The patch must be WET.  The easiest way to do that is always have one in your mouth, so by the time you are ready to use it, it's saturated.  While loading, put another dry pre-cut into your mouth so it's wet when needed.

Dry patches might work if you like wiping the bore every shot or every 2 shots.  The problem with that, is the an ever-changing bore condition, which doesn't happen when using well-wet, tight combinations. Using a tight combination with  wet patches, ensures never having to wipe the bore from the start of shooting to the end, and the bore never gets 'fouled' - it's cleaned when you load the next one and stays consistant for every shot.

A well shaped muzzle's crown is vital to allowing easy loading of a tight combination. If the ball is hard to start, the muzzle's crown is too sharp.  This is a hard and fast rule, not an opinion.  We've proven this time and time again over 40 years of shooting.  The smoother the crown, the easier the ball and patch swage together into the rifling for a tight fit.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 06:39:09 PM by Daryl »

beleg2

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 07:33:00 PM »
Why not using straight water.
Is there any component in spit that makes it better?
Martin

J.D.

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 08:45:33 PM »
Take Daryl's advise. Between Roger and Daryl, they have probably forgotten more about about shooting ML guns than most people have learned. I have seen a few of Roger's targets, and for an old @$#% who wears glasses, he shoots better than most 20 year olds. Daryl ain't no  slouch either.

Take their advise. It's free and it's good.

God bless

Offline bluenoser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 11:23:48 PM »
Why not using straight water.
Is there any component in spit that makes it better?
Martin

It's there when you need it  ;D

beleg2

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 11:40:27 PM »
Thanks
I'm a little thump, I reread Daryl's post.
Never thought about having a patch into my mouth, it is easier to get it saturate and my mouth closed too    ;):D :D

Thanks
Martin

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 03:54:13 AM »
I usually put few in my mouth at a time. This is especially important when at the range or at a shoot on a 'dry' day.  hefley Creek Rondy is a good case in point. With a humidity of 6% and 85F (or warmer) weather, it sometimes takes a few minutes to work up enough saliva for the patch.  Some of us have gone to pre-lubed due to this.

BTW I haven't found any greases that shoot as accurately as good old spit - or the comcoctions using water based lubes.  One gun of mine shoots best with LHV & heavy powder charges for it's calibre, however everything else puts out low to high velocity strings between 2 and 10 fps and shows the very best accuracy with spit.  Greases will double or triple spreads instantly.  The smaller the velocity spread, the potential for the best accuracy results.

Consistancy, though art THE jewel of accurate muzzleloading shooting.  Ball weight , powder weight, patch thickness, lube, bore condition, pressure seating the ball - consistancy in loading is at least 50% of the the accuracy in shooting a muzzleloading rifle. - in my opinion.

Offline B. Hey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 05:49:54 AM »
Guess I just have to ask ... Anyone ever use bear grease or combination thereof? Always heard it was a good patch lube. Bill

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 06:18:14 AM »
A number of guys here use bear grease or oil.

 For hunting and target, Taylor and I used bear grease for a few years.  For hunting, I've also used marmot oil, crisco oil & crisco shortening, olive oil, Neetsfoot oil, Mink oil, tried comercial spit-patch, tried bore butter, tried Lube 1000 .

For years, we preferred spit for target work - always worked perfectly.

For target shooting, I've used water, spit, LHV, Hoppe's 9 Plus, windhsield washer fluid and soap, WWasher fluid and Neetsfoot oi, and WWasher fluid and Olive oil & also Moose snot.
 I prefer spit or windshield washer fluid with dose of Neetsfoot oil, shaken, patches lubed in a small steel tin (Sucrets) that sits on top of the loose balls in my possibles pouch.  The best target oil I've used in my .40 barrel is LehighValley lube and Hoppe's 9 Plus(now called Hoppe's
Black Powder Sovent and Patch Lube, I believe).

For hunting, I'd love to get some more marmot oil - it is absolutely the best I've used so far - for hunting - then bear grease, but minkoil seems to shoot cleaner in some guns.  I use Track's mink oil - I like it and it works for me.

Winshied washer fluid, the -35 to -45 stuff costs $4.00 per gallon.  The added oil costs a few cents.  I have not used summer windshield washer fluid as it contains soaps I probably don't want in my bore due to their chemical compostion.

Offline rick landes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 398
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 05:08:54 PM »
I use a mix of balistoil and water. I have tried 1 part to 4 of water through 1 to 8. I dip the patch and roll out the excess and let everything dry overnight. I tried each and found for my rifle the 1 to 4 is best. The groups open up if I use less oil.
I think you will find that square cut rifling will require a patch with less oil than a round bottom cut rifling. I base that on what I have seen; I am sure others will have some feedback regarding this too.

Point is to try different things with your rifle and ONLY change one thing at a time and take notes. Pay strict attention to the wind amount and direction. In a word be consistent.

When looking for material use a micrometer and measure the patching in a compressed way. This is the way it will be when in the rifles bore. Try a cigarettte paper for a slight change of thickness and see what it will do for you. I find when I cannot load a ball because of the paper I am close to the best for my rifle.

I do not do paper wasp nest; if it is needed your patch is too thin.

Make sure your swabbing patches are consistently damp. Try various FF and FFF load weights. More is not better.

Check simple things too like rear sight movement and canting the rifle.
“No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2010, 05:22:20 PM »
Rick makes a very good points and includes about canting the rifle - VERY important - the higher the sights, the more left and low or right and low the shot goes - with canting.  The effect from centre is similar to the effect you get when raising or lowering the front sight in the rear sight - a little 'goes' a long way and a little canting goes a long way.  This is especially true with double rifles and actually can be used, with practise, to get one that shoots higher and crosses with one barrel, to shoot with the other.  I've observed this myself, but haven't seen it is print before.  Easy to do with some practise.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 10:24:03 PM by Daryl »

agaboric

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2010, 09:24:40 PM »
Where would I be able to get some Balistoil at? Is it something that is pretty common? I have neatsfoot oil which some say works well also, but I am curious and would like to try some balistol oil.

Also how many of you guys when loading do you use a small hammer or something of the sort to start the ball with? I had seen some fellas using little hammer to start the rb into the muzzle and then the short starter and then the ram rod, I guess to me I do not realize just how tight these patch and ball combos need to be.
-Andy

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2010, 09:59:57 PM »
Rick makes a very good piont about canting the rifle - the higher the sights, the more left and low or right and low the shot goes - with canting.  The effect from centre is similar to the effect you get when raising or lowering the front sight in the rear sight - a little 'goes' a long way and a little canting goes a long way.  This is especially true with double rifles and actually can be used, with practise, to get one that shoots higher and crosses with one barrel, to shoot with the other.  I've observed this myself, but haven't seen it is print before.  Easy to do with some practise.
Oh Yes, Canting!!  This is important and many (not all) chunk shooters fit their log guns with a can't bar!  So, they know the effects of said canting! :)

Offline Darrin McDonal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2010, 04:04:28 AM »
I have been getting excellent results with 50/50 olive oil & bees wax. I have been trying to think of a "period correct" lube to use for 18th cent &  I never heard of this mixture before I tried it last year. In cold weather I add  slightly  more olive oil. 
Darrin
Apprentice Gunsmith
Colonial Williamsburg
Owner of Frontier Flintlocks

Offline rick landes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 398
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
AGBORIC
Ballistol is available from many places. The best price I had found was from MidSouth Shooters Supply
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00205120076
Some have been charging a haz mat on this. It is only oil and water based at that. Ask them for a catalog too, some fun things in there at a fair price IMHO.
“No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2010, 11:29:13 PM »
Darrin - one of the tallows would be period correct - or bear grease/oil - about any of the animal fat oils. Deer tallow would be correct for USA or Canada.  Mixing tallow with beeswax was, I think, a later 1850 through 1900 era method for military use mostly.

flintlock

  • Guest
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2010, 04:11:38 AM »
I too have had good luck with a spit patch lube. In fact, I actually tried marketing a spit-patch lube. It worked well, but my business venture didn't last long. I just couldn't keep up with demand. I could only fill a couple bottles each day before my mouth got so dry I had to stop.

Flintlock  ;D

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1999
Re: Your favorite patch lube and y
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2010, 05:28:28 AM »
I use "artificial spit" aka Ballistol mixed with water about a 6 or 8 to 1 ratio. Doesn't seem to be critical and works really well.