Possible 17th Century Fowler

[Elnathan]

This gun was posted on a reenacting board, and the poster wanted opinions about the date and location it might have been made. The caliber is .58-62, no other dimensions available right now. The lock alone is worth your time, I think:








Original thread is here:
http://frontierfolk.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=30336&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
We came up with a couple different ideas, but nothing that could be called a consensus, so your thoughts are welcome.

[Mike Brooks]

1690-1710. Maybe Danish. All guesses of course, but probably not far off. Nifty gun.

[Jim Kibler]

I may stick my foot in my mouth, but here are some thoughts.  I don't see the stocking as 17th century.  It seems 1720's at the earliest to me.  Although the stocking is unique in some ways, to my eye, it exhibits much of the form we associate with a classic jaeger.  It seems that Germanic guns prior to the time frame around 1720 were still in a rapid state of evolution and much more heavily influenced by the French barouque forms.  Now the lock certainly shows 17th century characteristics.  Much of the style is shown in the Simonin prints that were first published in the mid 1680's.  Perhaps it is a re-used lock and barrel or perhaps it's a case where out of style lock designs continued later use in some areas.  It would be intersting if information could be obtained from the barrel markings. 

[James Rogers]

My guess is even a much later re-stock of older parts.

Swiss, Germanic, Scandanavian .........ish

[Nate McKenzie]

To me the wood looks too new and the carving too sharp to be that old.

[Jim Kibler]

To me the wood looks too new and the carving too sharp to be that old.

Nate,

European and English arms are were often well cared for and thus are sometimes still in wonderful condition.  Study examples at some of the auction houses or sites that sell European guns and you will likely see examples of this.  Bolk antiques would be a good place to start as this dealer often has guns in exceptional condition.  In my opinion, I dont think the state of preservation is a good measure of when a gun such as this was made.

Jim

[smart dog]

Hi,
I am not sure how many 17th century locks had bridled pans.  Locks with that feature became popular in the early 18th century.  Of course there could always be a few very early examples around.  The gun certainly looks Germanic or central European made during the early 18th century.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Hey fellas. I'm wondering if we're looking at an odd Gold alloy inlayed into that barrel or is it actually brass?
 I stuck an early date on this gun because of the lock and barrel. The carving, what little we can see of it has a early baroque feel to it too. Think I'm wacky tabacky on that?
 Good to see a vent liner too. may be a later addition possibly

[Jim Kibler]

Although it wasn't common for French pattern locks from the later part of the17th century to have bridled pans, a few do exist.  Lenk shows at least one is his book and it seems I've seen a couple others pictured but I can't seem to find them now.  Guess there's always an exception to the norm.

[JV Puleo]

The mark on the barrel appears to be Nicholas Bis. There were two, father and son and I do not know which this is supposed to be. The father was gunmaker to the King of Spain from 1691 to his death in 1726. The son took over and held the office until 1746. Stylistically this looks as if it has to be the father. However... I have good reason to believe that most "Spanish" barrels with the marks of famous makers were Belgian knock-offs and that this trade may have started when Belgium was still the Spanish Netherlands. Without some specialized examination I doubt its possible to confirm or deny if the marks are genuine.

I think the pan bridle puts it into the 18th century, though how far I'm not certain. Another problem is that styles do not evolve uniformly nor do they take root everywhere. And, not everyone embraces new styles when they do arrive. What was new in London or Amsterdam in 1720 may not have reached the countryside until 1760... So the gun could really be much later than the sum total of its parts suggest. This is the great danger in dating on the basis of appearance alone.

I'm inclined to vote for 1700-1725 but with lots of admitted reservations. Also, the previous comment that many European guns are in splendid condition is spot on. Excellent condition is the norm rather than the exception with this sort of gun. You'd be hard pressed to find one that was used roughly and poorly maintained. Leaf through a Hermann Historica catalog some day and you'll be amazed at how many early flintlocks are still out there in fantastic shape.

[mr. no gold]

Haven't looked up the proofmarks yet, but they have that distinctive Spanish feel. As to the rest of the gun; usually the lighter color the wood, the farther north it was made, in my experience. Pretty gun and it is nice to have the opportunity to see it. Thank you.
Dick

[Captchee]

Hey fellas. I'm wondering if we're looking at an odd Gold alloy inlayed into that barrel or is it actually brass?
 I stuck an early date on this gun because of the lock and barrel. The carving, what little we can see of it has a early baroque feel to it too. Think I'm wacky tabacky on that?
 Good to see a vent liner too. may be a later addition possibly

 Thats what I thought when I posted on the other board  mike . I don’t think its brass  probably more a  low gold alloy .
  Its rather  noticeable  in the area of the makers markings. Which themselves ,appear to possibly have been stamped in copper
 Obviously guessing though as  who can say for sure  when concerning a photo  .

Something else caught my eye on this . Notice that the  muzzle inlay work , is not of the  quality of  anything prior  to it on the barrel .  It appears that this was originally a band .  The small circles have not been done with the same care  as  in other places  where  this same pattern was used . It looks as if  the treatment was an attempted at a bead work . Yet its stamped into a the band . Instead of being done individually as was done  in other places
  Thus im thinking possibly not done by the same person who did the other work .
  frankly  as a whole  the quality of the barrel work “ Inlay” while attractive , it  seems rather lacking  in quality of  workmanship .
Would this be expected  from a kings Armor ?.

 Note also that this is a half stock piece  with a brass  nose Band .  That struck me as kind of odd .
 This combined with  the bridled lock , even though  it carries earlier lines . Gives me an later feel  even with the early wood TG .
Makes me wonder also if  the barrel and lock were not replaced on an older stock which may have been cut down  .

 For me its one of those piece that’s very hard to settle on  concerning an opinion of origin.

[Mike Brooks]

Note also that this is a half stock piece  with a brass  nose Band .  That struck me as kind of odd .
 This combined with  the bridled lock , even though  it carries earlier lines . Gives me an later feel  even with the early wood TG .

1/2 stocks were very common in the Germanic countrys very early on. The bridled lock doesn't surprise me either, I believe this to be a very high quality lock for it's time. The lock shape is what points me to an early date, the bridle is just an interesting little bonus, not so much a feature that should be used to put a hard date on it.
 I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is a Belgian knock off of a Spanish barrel....Kind of lacks a certain "pizzazz" for a genuine Spanish barrel.

[Jim Kibler]

I don't think it's wise to use the pan bridle as a significant dating feature.  As mentioned before, pan bridles were ocassionally present on 17th century locks.  They did of course become much more common as the 18th century progressed.  Reference Torsten Lenk " The Flintlock" plate 74 for a good example.  In addition Wallace Gusler adressed this subject in a September 2008 Muzzleblasts article.  

One design detail of the lock I find interesting is the step in profile at the tail.  This shows up on a flat faced design in the 1705 De Lacollombe prints.  I dont' recall seeing this on examples before this date.  In this case, perhaps the older round faced style was influenced by this new design.

[Stophel]

My answer is the same as on the other board: Germano-Italian     I have never seen anyone carve triggerguards right out of the stock other than the Italians.

I'll second the Bis attribution on the barrel.  I have a photo of a gun by Francisco Baeza y Bis, with a similar mark, initialed "FRN BIS", and the second mark has two orbs and crosses.   

[Captchee]

agreed mike . but how many carry a brass band ? i to feel the lock apears to be a quailty peice
 i would also agree  with the sugestion of Lenks documentation .  he does show a couple briddle pans .

[Mike Brooks]

The band IS odd, perhaps it demonstrates it's earliness.  Of course we could consider the rest of the mounts are "minimal" in style, perhaps the simple band is just a continuation of this.