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Author Topic: Tim Murphy Rifle  (Read 4973 times)
Dr. Tim-Boone
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2010, 09:55:59 AM »

So after looking at several sources..there appears to be no real solid evidence.......but common lore says he used a double barrel rifle..........so I guess thats what the client might want...did he say???   Might have to look to possible european design??  Was a swivel breech known to have been made during the Rev war.... seems more reasonable than SxS???
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Dennis Glazener
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2010, 10:49:54 AM »

Thanks for all the info in this post. My GGGG GF Samuel B. King was one of Morgan's riflemen. He was from Bedford County VA and joined Dec 9, 1776 and was with Morgan at the battle of Saratoga. I like to think he may have known Tim Murphy!
Dennis




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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2010, 10:58:27 AM »

I have an ancestor that was also at Saratoga with Morgans, Capt. Basil Prather. He was in command of 60-plus riflemen that were attached to Morgan from the 8th PA.
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2010, 11:34:23 AM »

Here's Tim Murphy's horn.  It was at an awkward angle under glass, at the Old Stone Fort in Schoharie.  About 15-16" along the outside curve, about 3" at the base, iron nails to hold the buttplug, and no markings.  Either a cheap standard trade horn or a one-off made by a non-professional.





I don't doubt that Antes, etc was making double barrel swivel rifles by 1770, but the one in RCA looks 1780's-1790's to me.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2010, 12:24:36 PM »

While Fraiser stated the man that shot him was in a tree Murphy was not the only rifleman shooting at him at the time. So who really killed him could be a ?
But Murphy is an excellent candidate and chances are the story that has come down through time is correct. But I am not sure that Murphy ever claimed it. But he may not have considered it something the brag about.

So far as the swivel breech? The Antes rifle could easily predate the Revolution and I think it does. Antes was certainly old enough, b. 1735 IIRC, to have even invented the little figure with the funny cap that appears on Allentown guns and on this swivel. It would have been the perfect gun for the Fraiser job since a 50 caliber rifle will easily make the 300 yard shot. Wenders had been in production in Europe since the advent of the flintlock.
I can tell you that a swivel is pretty nice thing to have for hunting and in combat would have been that much better.
Sometime during the Revolution Kenton ordered a double barreled rifle from PA. So they were apparently known as far "out" as Kentucky. SXS are far more unwieldy than a swivel.
Dan
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2010, 02:36:19 PM »

To muddy the waters even more, I remember reading about a letter written about two brothers or cousins from North Carolina who crept about half way to the Brit lines, through a field of standing grain. According to the letter, the two fired at Frazier from less than 200 yards from a slight rise in the field. Don't remember the source though.

As mentioned in the article on the early American Review page, the first mention of Murphy as the one who shot Frazier was in the mid 1840's, so IMHO, the story is probably more fiction than fact.

That said, no one can really know what style of rifle was used by Morgan's riflemen at Bemis Heights. I suspect that an early Lancaster,  an early VA rifle similar to the Haymaker, or something close to RCA 21 might be a good choice.

God bless
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Dennis Glazener
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2010, 07:53:04 PM »

Quote
That said, no one can really know what style of rifle was used by Morgan's riflemen at Bemis Heights. I suspect that an early Lancaster,  an early VA rifle similar to the Haymaker, or something close to RCA 21 might be a good choice.
My vote is on RCA #124, it just screams Morgan's Riflemen, especially the ones from VA!
Dennis
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Jim Kibler
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2010, 09:46:19 PM »

Quote
That said, no one can really know what style of rifle was used by Morgan's riflemen at Bemis Heights. I suspect that an early Lancaster,  an early VA rifle similar to the Haymaker, or something close to RCA 21 might be a good choice.
My vote is on RCA #124, it just screams Morgan's Riflemen, especially the ones from VA!
Dennis


So what is it about RCA #124 that screams Morgan's Riflemen?  Just curious what your thoughts are.
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2010, 07:10:54 AM »

Jim, it's only because Dennis is from VA. And because he owns the site, we let him have his little fantasy now and then.

Tom
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Dennis Glazener
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2010, 09:05:44 AM »

Jim,
I guess the VA attribution has something to do with it (maybe a lot more than I let on).

The graceful lines of the walnut stock (I don't like the goofy incised lines, I can imagine a bored Rev War guy using his knife to carve these line while sitting around a campfire Roll Eyes), the simple, functional look that I think would appeal to early Scot-Irish frontiersman. The wide (2 1/16") butt and comparatively straight stock that to me would make for comfortable shooting of a .59 caliber rifle. The use of a top of the line Ketland lock for reliability.

To me it just has the look of a rifle that one of Morgan's VA riflemen would have owned as his personal rifle.

Dennis
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Dr. Tim-Boone
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2010, 09:23:28 AM »

Not to be a pain, or anti VA.. Grin  but the versions of the legend all seem to agree on a doublebarreled rifle......So we know there were some swivel breech guns extant..... we also know that the legend was not really published until the 1840's...so looking back with 1840 eyes biased by what was seen from say 1825 on.... what would the population have imagined a doublebarreled rifle looked like...... Huh?  So Scott, I guess you go with what you think your customer thinks the gun was like, or what you think the populace thought it looked like.........or..... Were it me, unless the customer was against it, and knowing only what I know now I would settle on a swivel breech.......One man's opinion.. hope that's helpful.
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2010, 10:15:37 AM »

2cents from a non-gun builder... I've been following this thread with great interest, and read all the articles linked. It seems to me that much of the info out there does not agree. One articles states that his name was not even originally murphy while another states his parents by name. It does to me seem like sources agree that there was the existence of a double barreled rifle. Question: Was it the rifle used for the Shot? It seems along with the question "How many licks does it take to get the center of a tootsie pop?" The world may never know!

I'd like to go back to my brother's original question.
I'm wondering what others might envision in his hands on that day?
As someone "who don't know jack about gun building or the different schools" I offer, if he was from the Deleware Water Gap area and moved to the Sunbury area which most sources seem to agree upon. Would it be plausible to look towards the nearest geographical school and the earliest possible guns to spark the imagination which Scotty seems to be asking of us?

My 2 cents
Morgan Shea
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2010, 12:13:15 PM »

2cents from a non-gun builder... I've been following this thread with great interest, and read all the articles linked. It seems to me that much of the info out there does not agree. One articles states that his name was not even originally murphy while another states his parents by name. It does to me seem like sources agree that there was the existence of a double barreled rifle. Question: Was it the rifle used for the Shot? It seems along with the question "How many licks does it take to get the center of a tootsie pop?" The world may never know!

I'd like to go back to my brother's original question.
I'm wondering what others might envision in his hands on that day?
As someone "who don't know jack about gun building or the different schools" I offer, if he was from the Deleware Water Gap area and moved to the Sunbury area which most sources seem to agree upon. Would it be plausible to look towards the nearest geographical school and the earliest possible guns to spark the imagination which Scotty seems to be asking of us?

My 2 cents
Morgan Shea
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 Hey! Stay out of my brain! Angry Seriously....Well said! Grin
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Dr. Tim-Boone
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2010, 01:31:33 PM »

So the Easton gunbuilder is attributed...but we have none of his guns to look at...seems the double or single isssue is the biggy......legend has it........... wanna fight the legend without hard facts?? 
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2010, 01:53:40 PM »

So the Easton gunbuilder is attributed...but we have none of his guns to look at...seems the double or single isssue is the biggy......legend has it........... wanna fight the legend without hard facts?? 
I understand that Nicholas Hawk Gilbert, Pa (Northampton County at that time) did build Wenders; but was ol Nicky Hawk working that early?  Dunno!

Not Easton; but not too far n/w of said town!
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