Re: Characteristics of the upper E. TN style rifle

[chuck c.]

I hope this doesn't sound like a dumb question, but since we have some of the best experts on this subject gathered up here, I'm going to ask. What are the main characteristics that the trained and educated eye looks for when they say, "That's a fine looking example of a Tennessee rifle"? Being the untrained beginner that I am when I built my rifle I studied Ken's, Ian's, Lawing's and Borron's work and tried to incorporate the things I liked the most (leaning heavily on wanting it to look like a Lawing) about their work into my rifle. Is there like a "check list" of characteristics that you should make sure you incorporate in your work to ensure that that your rifle will have the experts saying, "He nailed it!". If I had these things straight in my mind before the build it sure would help. Ian's already given me very good advice by telling me to handle as many originals as possible, but for a lot of reasons this is pretty hard for me to do. Any advice from you fellows would be appreciated. I hope this doesn't stray too far from the topic.

[Ken G]

Chuck,
Sorry to be slow answering but I've been traveling most of this week. I'll take a partial stab at your question.  I hope others and especially Guy will chime in.  Guy does a real good job with his written descriptions of E. TN traits and has helped me a lot over the years.
Ken


"I'm going to ask. What are the main characteristics that the trained and educated eye looks for when they say, "
First, there are 3 or 4 different schools within TN. I've studied what I consider to be the 2 in E. TN. Upper E. TN and Soddy-Daisey. To some the Soddy guns are part of the E. TN school but I consider that a school all to itself. Second, guns were being made in E. TN as early as 1790ish and in some places never stopped so the span of time is pretty broad.  
For E. TN guns I look for several things.  
Architecture - draw an imaginary line along the top of the comb.  On an E. TN rifle it will most likely continue on without intersecting with the stock in any place. The obvious exception is the Bogle rifle.


Tang - most of the time upper E. TN tangs will be long and continue up and over the comb.  



Soddy tangs will be long and more of a flat strap.


Triggers - Before the mass produced triggers started showing up most all TN triggers had the same look.  The front trigger has that half circle boss and a well rounded rear trigger.  Double set triggers are almost always the rule.  
 
Compare that to a modern double set trigger.


They have a very concave area where the wrist meets the lock panels and the barrel breech.

Deep Crescent Buttplate.
Soddy Buttplate - Notice the height of the comb plate and the deepest part of the curve.  The deepest part is near center on a Soddy rifle.  While looking at this picture notice the release spring for the patchbox lid.  


Upper E. TN - The comb plate is not near as deep as a Soddy.  The deepest part of the crescent is more in the top 2/3 area.  


You can also see the more typical box lid release made from an nail

[Nate McKenzie]

Good explanation, Ken. Thanks. Let's hear some more or better yet, do a tutorial. Thanks again. The timing is perfect as I am getting parts together for one.

[Ken G]

You are welcome Nate.  Please keep in mind I'm speaking in general terms and not absolutes.  There are no rules for TN rifles.  When you say "it never was" is when someone will bring one out of the closet that does.  Gunsmiths were moving to the area all the time and bringing with them their already learned ways of building. 

[chuck c.]

Thanks Ken,
Very helpful information as usual!

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Great piece Ken- made me get every one of my rifles down and inspect it!

[Dan'l 1946]

Ken, thanks for the tutorial. Great photographs! Do you think it is possible to duplicate that deep, nearly black finish on the East Tennessee rifle with the "banana" patch box?
                                                  Dan 
 

[Ken G]

Dan,
Try the link I've posted to a picture on the blog.  Roger Sells acheived a beautiful almost black finish with roofing tar.  I copied his explaination of how he did it.  Maybe he will comment more.  Glad you found the tutorial helpful
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/SZ8cijMedYI/AAAAAAAAKQA/du-ax5w_C14/s1600-h/DSCN2746_R_Sells_patch.jpg



rsells
Full Member

Posts: 194


     Re: Roger Sells on Contemporary Blog
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 11:14:28 PM »     

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Roofing tar will work fine.  For a long time, I would dig it up off the tar and chip road I lived on before they put hot mix on it.  Then, I went to roofing tar.  It will enhance the open end of the grain of the wood that soaks up the liquid more than the grain that isn't cut across the grain.  It really enhances fancy maple grain.  It looks like a mess, but it cleans up well with the steel wool and it being wet gives you an idea of what color you will have when the final finish is applied.  In some cases, I have used 320 sand paper in conjunction with the steel wool to speed the process up a bit.

                                                                         Roger
 

[Dan'l 1946]

Thanks. Don't think that I would have thought of tar! It looks like a great finish for a late 17th century fowler or musket--maybe one with a dog catch lock.

[Ken G]

I split these post off into its own thread in hopes of it becoming a usable tutorial for anyone wanting to build an E. TN rifle and specificly upper E. TN.  I know there are a lot of builders and collectors on the board that have studied the E. TN.  rifle longer than me.  I sure hope you guys will comment even if you disagree with my observations and comments.  It's easy to jump to a conclusion if you only have a narrow group of rifles to base opinions on. 

Thanks,
Ken

[longcruise]

Ken, when you say double set triggers were almost the rule, are you refering to double triffer double set or double trigger single set?  These southern triggers seem to be an art form in themselves.

[Ken G]

Longcruise, From what I have seen, the single phase, double trigger is the most common. 

You must set the rear trigger to fire the gun with the front trigger.  The front trigger will not fire the gun on its own. 

Ken

[R.W.D.]

Thanks brother Ken.  Am currently building the buttplate for my S.M.R. build.  Here in Arkansas it is almost getting too hot and humid to work in the garage.  At least my G.M. barrel is beginning to brown nicely on its own.

[Ken G]

You're welcome brother.  Hot as blue blazes here too.  I have 2 fans in the garage to move the heat around. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

You boys better find some AC!!

[Ken G]

Tim,
I was in the house where it is cool but we are in the process of selling the house and relocating due to my job.  The realtor didn't see my gun building set up as a selling point.     So I'm banished to the garage for now. 
Ken

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Yeah I will be out tin the garage in the am making lugs and seating them to the barrel..early!!

Maybe you need to take your agent to the range or your gun room , cnvince her that having an artist at work in the house addds "panache" to the house!!!

Where are you moving to? Gotta be hard to leave Signal Hill.

[flehto]

Thanks Ken...there's nothing like good pics and a knowledgeable person  to teach us Tennessee neophytes  what it's all about. ....Fred

[SR James]

How common were swamped  barrels on TN rifles?  I would think not very...

[Ken G]

Sr James,
I'd really like to hear from others on what they have observed but I'd guess about 25% of the originals I have measured had swamped barrels but I have to  also qualify that statement by saying most were like a "C" profile barrel even though they were sub-.50 caliber and not as much swamp as many barrels are today.  
The fly in the ointment may be the barrels I have spent the time to measure.  Mostly flint guns which are going to be early guns.  I'd say once you get to percussion cap guns the percentage goes way down.  With that said I have a percussion gun that does have a swamped barrel proving there are no rules that are absolute.

[G-Man]

Swamped barrels are extremely common on these guns, in fact, most originals that I have seen have swamped barrels.  Some of them are so slight that you have to run your fingers along them to tell, or measure with calipers, but most I have seen have some taper and flare, especially on earlier ones, but not necessarily so.  I have seen some pretty late ones with substantial amounts of taper and flare, even on some big heavy barrels.  As Ken pointed out, the profiles are very different from the standard profiles being made today for the most part - one thing I have noticed is that the narrow waist is farther back on some.  And there are some that are as big or bigger at the muzzle than the breech.  Remember these were hand hammered, each one of a kind, with the exception of those that used factory made barrels (which there were a lot of in the later period, but hand made barrels still were used as well).

Guy

[Ken G]

Guy, Do you think most of the tapered barrels were cut off or made that way? 
Ken

[G-Man]

Ken - I don't know - most of the ones that I have handled that had profiled barrels had some flare, but I know that tapered ones are out there.  My guess would be that some of the swamped barrels could easily appear to be tapered barrels if they lost a couple of inches - I have heard descriptions of some swamped barrels that pretty much tapered way down close to the muzzle and the "flare" was and almost straight section down the last 4-6 inches, so if one of these lost a couple of inches it sure would look like a straight taper.

Again, I am just basing this on ones that I have handled, and there are an awful lot of Tennessee rifles that I have not handled...     It would be interesting to bring a set of calipers along to Norris over a couple of years and keep a running tab of measurements of various guns.
 
The swamped barrels really help you keep the wrist architecture nice - you can go skinny, but still have enough flare around the breech to make the sideplate and lock panels stand way out distinctly from the wrist without making the wrist too flat on the sides.

[chuck c.]

Ken, get another realtor! (Just kidding) One question I have is what was the average caliber? For some reason in my mind I'm thinking that .45 would have been considered  a fairly large caliber.

[Ken G]

I checked Mr. Webbs barrel notes and he list measurements for 9 barrels for either SW Virginia, NC mt or TN rifle.  Basicly right down the Appalchai Mt. range .  
They are all swamped.  
.36 cal x 39", .40 cal x50", .?x43", .36 cal x43", .34 cal x49", .42 cal x47", .46cal x48", .46cal x45", .40, .46cal x46"
I really should start writting stuff down.  Dang I wish I had a list like this from what I have seen.


Tim,
I'm moving to the Greenville, SC area but we are looking more toward Ashville, NC for the homestead.  Very hard to leave Signal Mt.

Ken