Author Topic: Non shimmel guns  (Read 32542 times)

Bentflint

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Non shimmel guns
« on: June 25, 2010, 07:52:49 PM »
First off I want to thank you all for your responses to the shimmel post. An excellent discussion and a lot of information. My conclusion, a shimmel is not what I’m looking for.

For the sake of time period I’ll call them 3rd ¼ rifled guns (1750 to 1775). This is where I reenact and so do most of the people that buy the guns I build. I’m trying make my guns something more accurate to history. Not copies but, with the features and resemblance of rifled guns from this time period.

Not a gun that a wealthy man would carry for sport or the farmers varmint rifle but, rather the folks that had made their way into and past the first mountains or to the great lakes.

Just what would these rifle guns look like?
English import locks?
48” to 50” barrels, swamped?
Iron or brass mounted?
Architecture?

I’m not too sure I know all the questions I need to ask.

Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Bruce

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 10:25:18 PM »
I have a rifle built from a pattern created by Don Bruton which I believe Kent Smith has now......mine is .54 rifled. Here is a quote from someone else who has a smoothbore:

"I have never met Don Bruton. But I have handled one of Don’s rifles that had been owned by my late friend Richard. When Richard had it made the criteria for its creation was simple; Richard wanted an early smooth rifle with English influence that could have been made by Squire Boone. Not only did he nail the request, but Don’s rendition was a flintlock smooth rifle that was trim, light and pointed like an upland shotgun. It was a gun that needed to be handled- a lot!"

Here is a photo of a DVD cover that explains a little about Don's history with this gun.  He uses his personal version in the video.  I like mine a lot.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 10:25:42 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 10:39:14 PM »
My Southern 1760 (fantasy) .54  is on the bottom. iron mounted and 2'+ wide buttplate.  7.2 lbs.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 10:40:34 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 11:00:06 PM »
The styling of the gun would depend heavily on WHERE it was supposed to have been made.  But as a general rule, all the normal hardware, with at least moderate  carving around the tang, fore end and butt mouldings, carving at the rear rod pipe,  and usually, but not always, around the cheekpiece and nose of the comb.

Carving was CHEAP compared to the cost of materials, and did not take long for the gunsmith to do at all, so there was no reason to not have the gun carved. Besides, it was expected.  Gustav Stickley was not around in the 18th century.

It's just about all I do.  1750-1775 Pennsylvania German guns.
www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Flintlocks

« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 11:18:22 PM by Stophel »
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northmn

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 11:28:35 PM »
Look at Track of the Wolf gun kits for ideas.  Two come to mind, one the Christian Springs, Edward Marshall rifle and the other the Isaac haines, neither of which have an overly long barrel.  Dickert and Beck also worked in that time period.  Both had built plainer rifles as well as more elaborate ones.  Brass furniture would be more standard.  Since I am not the best engraver I stay away from brass patch boxes and lean toward the wooden ones.  Lately I have built a couple of plainer guns and have one in the making, but they are made with a desire for faster use without any showing off as at a Rondy.  Personally, I feel one is better for a piece you are taking to a match of some sort to plan on spending some time on the gun.  You may find that little extra time pays back.  I slose up of a picture I copied of a JP Beck off this site.  The carving is far from perfect.  I have completed the guns to a point where I can shoot them and finished them later. 

DP

Bentflint

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 11:34:00 PM »
Dr Tim I like the lines of that gun, what is the barrel length?

Chris you say attempt on your photo bucket, I say better than an attempt.

Based on the photo below, what change should be made to date this smooth rifle to the 3rd 1/4 of the 18th c?



Bruce

Bentflint

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 11:42:53 PM »
Dan, can you tell me when Dickert started building rifles? And did he start in Lancaster County?

I have built quite a few Dickert guns, you might see his influence in the gun above.

Bruce

Offline Stophel

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 11:45:38 PM »
Those "early attempts" were from several years ago.  I wish I had them back so I could thin them out a good bit primarily around the tang...

"Based on the photo below, what change should be made to date this smooth rifle to the 3rd 1/4 of the 18th c?"  Change the iron to brass and make it a little less Hershel House-like.   ;)  Perhaps beef the stock up a bit too...but only in the right places  ;D.

I forget when Dickert started his own shop...LATE 1760's????  He was a Moravian, and it seems quite apparent from looking at the guns that he very likely apprenticed under Albrecht (the signed Albrecht gun would be attributed to Dickert out of hand were the barrel not signed), but there surprisingly are no records of Dickert's apprenticeship.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 11:49:23 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Online rich pierce

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 11:46:40 PM »
There are a lot of good books out there, particularly Rifles of Colonial America Volumes 1 and 2 by George Shumway.  And there are a lot of good rifles posted here that fit your bill rather well.

Dickert was working in the late 1760's as I recall, but not yet in Lancaster.  It's not nailed down, but is supposed he was associated with the Moravians at Christians Spring in his early years.
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 11:51:15 PM »
Dickert was a member of the Moravian Church in Lancaster.  As far as I know, he was always in Lancaster.  ??? (well, after he arrived here as a child from Germany).

Albrecht was known to be in Lancaster around this time, but offhand, I don't recall exactly when.

Definitely you need Rifles of Colonial America.  You will both praise and curse them, but if you are interested in these guns at all, you MUST have them, above all others....and you really should get all the others too!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 12:05:10 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Bentflint

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2010, 12:20:14 AM »
I do have RCA volume I but, bills before books.

I have made the commitment to use more brass, other than a pistol I haven't built a brass mounted gun for 7 or 8 years.

About what year do you think barrels got longer. Say compairing Lancaster to Christian's Springs guns?

How about the use of Chambers Early Germanic lock on longer barreled guns?

Bruce

Offline G-Man

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2010, 12:25:37 AM »
As Chris pointed out, the odds would be that most American longrifles of that period would  be expected to be brass mounted based on surviving examples.  Your gun should reflect the style of the region you want to depict it being from.

If you are intereseted in iron mounted Appalachian rifles, there are some references that suggest the possibility of iron mounted guns in the latter part of that period and a few surviving longrifles that could fall into the latter part of that timeframe, just no way to document the timing at this point.

If you do want to go with iron, I would keep it simple and keep the guard more reflective of what a gunmaker used to seeing and working in the common brass mount styles of the day would make up in iron, using the brass mounts as a pattern.  The earliest iron mounted longrifiles we have to study have mounts along these lines, rather than the more highly stylized, Tennessee style guards that would fall more into the post 1820 era.  Based on later examples, when we have the rare opportunity to see brass and iron examples by the same gunsmith, the iron mounts are usually very similar to the brass, but the iron guns are a bit more "stripped down" with less tendency toward engraving and carving.

Ian Pratt made a really nice interpretation of an early iron mounted rifle based on the "Old Holston Gun" which is believed to be one of the earliest, if not the earliest, surviving iron mounted Appalachian longrifle and may date to the Rev. War period.  You can see it on the Contemporary Makers Blog Spot.  Wallace Gusler did a nice article on the original rifle in Muzzle Blasts as well.

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/02/ian-pratt-rifle.html

But, all that aside, as much as I like iron mounted guns, if you want to stick with something documented to the period 1750-1775 I would think brass would be much more common.

And by all means, get RCA Volumes 1 and 2 before they go out of print again ;)  (I hear you on the bills before books though....).  In all seriousness, there are often a lot of good suggestions for books on here, but that one is a top priority for anyone interested in the period you like.

Guy

« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 01:07:29 AM by Guy Montfort »

Offline JTR

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 12:38:48 AM »
I think Dickert was born in 1745, so he could have been building guns about 1765, in Lancaster. Although, as far as I know, none exist from that early.
John
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 12:56:58 AM »
Bruce, my rifle has a 44" barrel. 
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Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2010, 01:15:30 AM »
''Carving was CHEAP compared to the cost of materials, and did not take long for the gunsmith to do at all, so there was no reason to not have the gun carved. Besides, it was expected.  Gustav Stickley was not around in the 18th century.''

[/quote]

That is REALLY very funny 'Stophel .I love the Stickley comment .Great insight delivered with  humor  :D
I will remember that.  
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 01:16:25 AM by stuart cee dub »

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 01:47:24 AM »
''Carving was CHEAP compared to the cost of materials, and did not take long for the gunsmith to do at all, so there was no reason to not have the gun carved. Besides, it was expected.  Gustav Stickley was not around in the 18th century.''

[/quote]

Chippendale, Hepplewhite and Sheraton were definitly around!! ;D :D ;)
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 02:36:27 AM »
It's an aesthetic common today, but NOT 200+ years ago!  Many people say they admire "clean lines" and want their guns as absolutely devoid of decoration as much as possible (often, they even want them crude), and they try VERY hard to force this aesthetic into the 18th century, which was definitely not an era of minimalist decoration.  Often using phrases like "surely somebody did...", or "there MUST have been...".   ;)

There are several guns in Rifles of Colonial America that I really like, and seem to be typical for the era of 1750-1775.  Many of these are of "generic" form, being built before the "regional schools" really began to congeal. 

Numbers 19; the whole Bethlehem/Christians' Spring series (including number 17); the earliest Dickerts, like numbers 49 and 51 (maybe Dickert?); 83; 84; the extremely unusual number 102; 112; 117; and 124, among a few others.  Many of these are closer to the tail end of our 1750-1775 time period, and it would be VERY unwise to attempt to push some of the designs back to 1760, or even 1765.  There are many other guns shown that might be from around 1770-1780.

There are other fascinating apparently-early rifles that are illustrated here and there.  The "Tulip" rifle immediately comes to mind.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2010, 03:34:59 AM »
I think it would be highly unlikely to find an iron mounted gun that early, unless, it was a German Jager.   Most, if not all,
had brass mounts.............Don

northmn

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2010, 12:23:52 PM »
As to the plain vs decorated arguement which has been addressed before.  It is questionable whether the plain rifles had the survival rate of the more decorated ones.  Another individual mentioned on his post the number of barrels he had seen scrapped.  The collectors ignored the plain ones for many yers also, but we are starting to see some show up now.  I just looked at the Beyer rifle in our library, 081228-3 that has no patchbox and is incised carved.  On the other hand, we used to expect walnut stocks and checkering on our modern rifles a few years ago, so that a certain amout of decoration is expected.  The arguement could go on ad nauseum, but what is available today from collectors, who are discriminating in their collections may be a skewed representation of what was used.  Unless we create a time machine it is an arguement that will not be resolved.  I am amused that the rifle used as a logo for this site is a very plain one. 

DP

Offline Tommy Bruce

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2010, 03:41:53 PM »
There are some plainer guns in RCA vol II that are attributed to the southern colonies.  Even these guns had a minimum of molding along the forestock and ramrod channel, beavertails behind the lock mortice and a little raised carving behind the tang.  You might check the local library about getting a loaner on the book.  By the way I like your iron mounted gun. 
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2010, 04:24:51 PM »
In looking back to the original question - I think it would depend on the time, place and circumstances of the origin of the person carrying that gun west.  A group of hunters from southwestern Virginia or North Carolina heading out for Tennessee and Kentucky in the late 1760s or early 1770s would likely have had access to, been accustomed to and carrying different rifles from someone like Simon Girty when he was employed as a hunter in the Illinois country in that era and traveled back and forth from Pittsburgh through the Ohio River Valley.  Or different from a very early (1750s) American rifle, which sadly we don't have a documented example to go on. But we know they certainly were being made and in use by the 1750s.  

So for your period, there are long barreled guns like you suggested but there are also some not so long, under 40 inches.

English and continental or "Germanic" locks were both used.   The whole Pennsylvania=German and Virginia=English lock thing was a general obervation of trends, but has been blown out of proportion to where some folks take it as an absolute.  There were lots of English locks used on Pennsylvania made guns, and lots of Germanic style locks used on Virginia made guns.  

Here are a few quick ideas that come to mind.  I think any of these styles would look just fine with no extra carving than a couple of moldings.

The Adam Haymaker rifle we were discussing on a recent thread was owned by Hancock Taylor, who was from Virginia and traveled throughout much of Kentucky and parts of the Mississippi Valley before the Revolution and was killed in 1774.  So that could be viewed as a Virginia made rifle from the latter part of the period you are interested in.

Eric Kettenburg's rifle on the contemporary maker's blog spot is another good example of a rifle style from that era, probably earlier than the Haymaker but from a totally different region, eastern Pennsylvania.

Some of Jack Brooks recent rifles built with sparse trade gun hardware, a few moldings, no engraving, and rifled octagon swamped barrels, look really to capture the feel of that era as well.   You can see examples on his website.   To me these could be representative of something being made up for natives, i.e. that Christians Spring record of a rifle being stocked for a "Shawanoe chief" on the Pennsylvania or Ohio Valley frontier in that era.  

Good luck
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 04:35:44 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2010, 07:23:02 PM »
Pure supposition, but given that southern mountain guns of the early 19th century and fine English guns of the 18th century used iron furniture extensively..... French and Spanish???  and iron, while legally forbidden in the colonies pre Rev War.......was made........

"John Tobler, a Swiss settler, had set up a thriving plantation there that included an ironworks, a clock making business, and a printing shop that published The South Carolina Almanack. He, like William Calhoun, was engaged in Indian trade. It is likely that the Calhouns and Tobler were already well acquainted. Tobler's extensive compound was enclosed inside a sturdy palisade fort Across the Savannah River from Augusta GA
"
You suppose there might have been a gunmaker??  And given that he wasn't a Pennsylvanian....... do you think perhaps they might have made iron mounted guns???  At least for the Indian trade??  

I know I am pushing it, but everyone seems so sure that everything pre rev war in the colonies was brass mounted........

Sure wish we could find some GA  or SC made guns frontier guns from before the revolution........Oh well I can fantasize eh.......
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 07:25:06 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline JTR

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2010, 07:54:51 PM »
I know I am pushing it, but everyone seems so sure that everything pre rev war in the colonies was brass mounted........

Sure wish we could find some GA  or SC made guns frontier guns from before the revolution........Oh well I can fantasize eh.......

You find one with a date and a maker, and I'll surely do my best to talk you out of it,,,,, well,,, me,, and 10 dozen other guys! ::)

John
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2010, 09:16:29 PM »
Hi Tim - just my thoughts, but I do think they were made, just not nearly as many as brass mounted guns, based on what has survived.  There are a few that could fall into that period, such as the Old Holston Gun, and have seen others, but there is just no way of definitively dating them.   I keep hoping though and I think someday we will find an example.   

I remember passing on a very early iron mounted smoothbore a few years ago - and I know some of the folks on this thread saw it at Friendship as well. A long round thin barrel that looked restocked from an early fowler, a walnut stock with the forend replaced, a wrap over iron buttplate ala Chuck Edwards style, a nicely made but plain iron rifle style guard that looked a little too plain to be European, and American longrifle architecture with a cheekpiece, etc.  And a big early style Germanic lock that looked to be about 1750-60s era.  Front and rear sights as I recall.  I did not know for sure what I was looking at - a plain German gun?  Or another one of those American "maybe" pre-Rev iron mounted guns?  Just hard to say.  Sure wish I could get another look at that gun now....

The surviving iron mounted guns seem to mostly correlate with the production of iron in the southern Appalchians from a timing standpoint - you really see them beginning to turn up in appreciable numbers by the 1790s, more even from a decade later, and by the time you reach 1820-30 there were lots of them.  Of course, logic would also dictate that the survival rates of any guns, iron or brass, decrease the farther back you go as well.  So whether the increase in number of iron mounts from the post 1790 period is directly attributable to the availability of locally made iron, or just attrition  making fewer of them available form the farther you go back in that period we don't know.  They were making iron in other places even earlier, over near the coast, but we don't see the iron mounted rifles becoming popular in those other regions.

My thoughts are that the higher number of them turning up in the southern Appalachians/backcountry post-1790 was that it grew out of necessity and turned into a style preference, due to (1) the relative isolation of the frontier and (2) the later production of iron.  Iron was what was available there, perhaps beginning with reforging out old parts or tools to make gun mounts, or maybe just more effcient if you were making relatively few guns,  and later developed into more of a regional style preference as the local iron production started up in the southern backcountry.  Whereas folks close to the coast  would have more ready access to brass.  I might be totally wrong though. 

So if you want to use an iron mounted gun for pre-1775, I have no problem accepting it as plausible, for example - someone settled in what is now East Tennessee  in the late 1760s-early 1770s.  Heck, when it boils down to it, the number of surviving rifles of any kind for which we know an absolute date is a pretty small proportion.  I would keep the style of the mounts close to the brass mounts of the period though, and simplify them and everything on the gun a bit.  This just based on rare instances from later pieces where we get to see brass and iron examples by the same gunsmith.

Guy

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Non shimmel guns
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2010, 09:31:07 PM »
The Haymaker is a good example.
There are others but the Haymaker is a good example with the proper history.
Dan
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